Reverse skills.

[RunningMountain]

Kick and disarm do it. How about subdue? I'd like to see it reverse at higher levels as well.

-RM

[jhunter]

I used to think that this should, but if it does that then the choice of whether you want to just fend them off or actually subdue them yourself is taken away.

If you are that much better you wouldn't have any choice but to reverse it instead of simply fending them off.

I prefer to have the choice depending on the situation.

[Armaddict]

I'd actually rather not.

I don't want to see people who have maxxes on all these skills suddenly becoming near-invincible, even when fighting three or four opponents.

I'd rather see subdue change to a process rather than an instant grab.  A bit of wrestling, then one or the other (either the subduer or subduee) wins and gets the other into a locked position.  The skill level would just increase your chance of being the winner...but it's never a certain thing.

[Maybe42or54]

Possible ideas:

You attempt to subdue the man. but he grabs your arm and throws you over him.
You attempt to subdue the man, but he reverses it and subdues you!

[Synthesis]

Very, very bad idea, because if you're wielding weapons and you reverse someone's subdue attempt, you're going to have to drop your weapons to do it.

Also, if you reverse a soldier's attempt to subdue you, and there are other soldiers in the room, you're going to get schwacked.

I can see where you're coming from with the idea, but it just wouldn't work.

[jmordetsky]

I'd actually rather not.

I don't want to see people who have maxxes on all these skills suddenly becoming near-invincible, even when fighting three or four opponents.

I'd rather see subdue change to a process rather than an instant grab.  A bit of wrestling, then one or the other (either the subduer or subduee) wins and gets the other into a locked position.  The skill level would just increase your chance of being the winner...but it's never a certain thing.

Thats actually one of the best code ideas I've heard in a while. I'd really like to see that as well.

[Bogre]

or make it a totally different grapple skill, that lets you fight unarmed. And have subdue work off of your grapple skill in addition to what it already works with.

You grapple with the burly soldier.
You get a hold on the burly soldier and throw him to the ground.

You grapple with the weak elf.
The weak elf escapes your reach.
The weak elf draws a steel greatsword.

You grapple with the gladiator.
The gladiator overpowers you and throws you to the ground.

etc.

[jstorrie]

Or if you fail a subdue attempt against someone who is much better at subdue than you, he simply throws you prone? That's a bonus in the spirit of what you're suggesting that makes sense.

[RunningMountain]

What I don't like about grapple is it's far too advanced, subdue is meant to be a 'simple' skill, not with a bunch of wrestling moves where you're shooting in and grabbing ankles and legs and there's a whole crapload of techniques, just simple grabbing people in a headlock or grabbing them by the hair or something crude like that. The reverse would just show more skill like all the other combat skills do, and could range from throwing them prone (much like a reverse bash or a reverse kick-trip) or it could totally reverse the subdue to them. I do like the throw idea though.

[Twilight]

How about if your subdue skill is substantially better, it checks your bash skill and you have a chance to reverse the subdue skill with a bash that has normal wait state for the bashed person, but no wait state for you.  Which would then give you time to either a) draw weapons and hack them to bits or b) run away.

Failure or lack of bash skill would have you push them away, if you made your counter attempt (even if they made their skill attempt), with no more than normal wait state for them.

[RunningMountain]

That's a pretty good idea too.

[Lohan]

how about this if your skill is X higher than your attackers then you hurt them badly if they try to bash you, or other random badness.


The wide man attempts to bash you,
You deftly put your weapon between you and the wide man

The wide man crumples

why cuz he just ran himself through on your sword. Now if he had a shield it might be different. Or how bout

The wide man attempts to grapple you.
you fend off the wide man with a series of hardblows to his arms


I would love to see screwups have a much more set of negative side effects than the standard "Fall down". And Success should be rewarded heavily also. I hate Hero bullshit, I want to see some ass get jumped only to put a knife between the ribs of someone trying to wrestle him.

Just my 2 cents

[Ghost]

Instead of autoblowing, starting combat could work better I think.  Since the would-be subduer is unarmed, you would already land a few blows.

[Twilight]

That would be fine if you assume you are armed, but how about if you aren't?  The last thing I want to do is automattically enter unarmed combat with some mul that tried to subdue me.

[RunningMountain]

Maybe an auto-draw of the weapons on your belt then an attack would work better? This would also significantly lower the amount of half-giant and mul subduers you find sometimes, if they know that it is a possible for you to reverse the subdue and get a few free hits on them while they are lagging..

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

RunningMountain wrote:

Maybe an auto-draw of the weapons on your belt then an attack would work better?

What if you don't have any weapons? What if you don't have a belt? What if you have weapons and a belt, but you don't keep your weapons on your belt? What if it's just you and your buddy wrestling... would you really stab him in the neck for not doing the full-nelson correctly? What if you're trying to drag your drunk/drugged/delirous pal home? Should he jump up, draw his twin battle-ulus, and rip you apart like a flying guillitone of death?
If this sort of change were to be implemented, I'd prefer if it simply lagged the subduer, allowing the victim to choose whether or not they should draw weapons, attack, run or do any combination of the three, instead of automatically make every character have the same kneejerk reaction thanks to a line of code.

[Twilight]

Now that I think about it, maybe the easiest would be that the current wait state for a subdue failure would be standard, but if the others person's subdue skill were greater than yours, it would scale the length of the wait state upwards on a failure (or heck, even a success).