Brawl Test

[Yokunama]

Would it be possible to implement a command for brawl similar to quit?

brawl test
Yep. You can brawl in here.

or

No, you don't think that would be a great idea.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14815

[Nyard]

Yeah, that's actually a really good idea.  My friend (the face-eater) got in trouble for trying to brawl somebody in the Trader's Inn.  JUSTICE!

[Yokunama]

Yeah, that's actually a really good idea.  My friend (the face-eater) got in trouble for trying to brawl somebody in the Trader's Inn.  JUSTICE!

Really, I do not care about your friend nor anyone who has a "good" relationship with him.

This post was created, because I thought it was a decent idea.

[jmordetsky]

I got arrested for using "hit" in a bar in the north, which was *not* nice.

You know the one I'm talking about.

[Yokunama]

I got arrested for using "hit" in a bar in the north, which was *not* nice.

You know the one I'm talking about.

Getting arrested for trying to start a fight in a high-class setting seems reasonable. If it were lower-class, I wouldn't be suprised if the guards nearby cheered on and choked on their glasses of ale.

[jmordetsky]

Well look at it this way, aside from the sancuary, is there any other bar in the north that you can think shouldn't support brawl?

[moab]

Does quit test really work?  Whenever I use "quit test" in a quit room it logs me out.  Am I doing something wrong?

[Hexxaex]

Does quit test really work?  Whenever I use "quit test" in a quit room it logs me out.  Am I doing something wrong?

[derailment]It should say "Yep. You can quit here." or "This looks like a good place to make camp." if you're a ranger.  It might be your client or something.[/derailment]

[Anonymous]

Personally I'm not upset with the idea that you may or may not be incriminated for using the brawl code in different taverns.  I think it falls on the player to consider their surroundings and their PC's mindset before using the hit command and leave it at that.  If your PC is angry enough to fly into a rage and knock someone's teeth in it won't matter if they might get arrested.  If your PC is annoyed by someone and feels that they can get away with knocking them on their ass consider where your PC is and whether or not they are willing to risk getting tossed in jail.

I honestly don't see the need for OOC 'You can hit each other here' mechanism which is akin to having a label on rooms whether or not it is open PK.

[X-D]

Right, I myself am against anything that will make it so people pay LESS attention to surroundings.

Somebody tries to brawl in traders or sanc or the ghatti...heh, they diserve what they get.  I'm pretty sure that a swank place like the sanc does not want thier STAINEDGLASS windows broken by brawlers. Myself, I love looking at the sancs descs every time I'm there.

[Cale_Knight]

That's not the point, though.

If I type "hit Cale" in the Gaj, I might toss a mug at him or punch him in the stomach. If I type "hit Cale" somewhere unsupported by the code, suddenly I'm trying to kill him, no-holds barred.

Thus, it's useful to know where the brawl code is supported and where it isn't.

[bloodfromstone]

I think it's a great idea. As has already been mentioned, if brawling is allowed in the bar, you'd probably know it from vNPCs brawling occasionally. And we all have different standards of where a brawl should be allowed and shouldn't, so just reading the room's description may not be enough. Just because I think it sounds like the sort of place where the proprietor wouldn't give a damn doesn't mean the builder felt the same way.

[X-D]

But brawling is fighting, hence, criminal. And just like any criminal activity, you take your chances, if smart, you have checked everything out and may be pretty sure you might get away with it. If you not, you try it anywhere, with much higher risk of course, this is yours and your chars choice.

Would it be useful, sure it would, but so would knowing where in a city you can pvp, But there is no command to tell you that either, and there shouldn't be.

Still against any idea such...silly IMO, like making a command to see if you can steal, pick locks, pk, etc. These are things that should be found out IC, and a command to check is OOC.

[jhunter]

Agreed. Just think logically and realistically. Pay attention to your surroundings and you don't have to worry about it. Depending on the code to tell you everything is more of a h&s mentality and I'd hate to see the game move in that direction at all.

[Cale_Knight]

Still against any idea such...silly IMO, like making a command to see if you can steal, pick locks, pk, etc. These are things that should be found out IC, and a command to check is OOC.

No, you're comparing apples to oranges. The steal command can be used in any room in the game. The brawl code can only be used in rooms coded to allow brawl. It's a 100% OOC limitation, just like only being able to quit in certain rooms.

Brawling is just as illegal in the Gaj as it is in the Trader's, but it's only codedly supported in one of those taverns. This command would simply let you know if the code is there, just like the "quit test" command.

[Cale_Knight]

Just think logically and realistically.

I can think of at least two taverns that support the brawl code that in my own logical and realistic opinion wouldn't allow it IC.

[X-D]

And attacking somebody on Caravan way is just as illegal as in that alley, but you will  only get crim flagged in one of them...

And on stealing, its not comparing apples to oranges, if you fail a steal in some places, you will get crim flagged, and not in others, if you brawl in some places, you get crim flagged and not in others.

[Anonymous]

The brawl code can only be used in rooms coded to allow brawl. It's a 100% OOC limitation, just like only being able to quit in certain rooms.

The hit command can be used anywhere and that's why the comparison works to me.  

Brawling is just as illegal in the Gaj as it is in the Trader's, but it's only codedly supported in one of those taverns. This command would simply let you know if the code is there, just like the "quit test" command.

Words like 'limitation' seem to indicate you think this is an oversight on the staff's part.  Personally I think it's just the opposite.  Where it is likely that a brawl could happen without immediate militia intervention the brawl code has been put into place to supercede the normal result of the 'hit' command.  In other places where a brawl will get you tossed pretty much right away it's not there.

There's a freaking soldier patrolling the Sanctuary last time I had a PC in there.  What more indication do you need?

[Jherlen]

Would a useful compromise be to add room echos to brawl-supported taverns indicating that brawls happen? This way you don't instantly get to tell, but if you hang around the place, you'll get an idea.

[jhunter]

Just think logically and realistically.

I can think of at least two taverns that support the brawl code that in my own logical and realistic opinion wouldn't allow it IC.

Hrrmm, we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think they are all set up perfectly the way they should be. The ones that don't have it make sense as well as the ones that do have it. *shrug*

[proxie]

Guys, what Cale is saying is that he'd like to know if the room is flagged brawl or not. He's not wanting to kill someone. A brawl isn't with the intent of killing, it's a pissing match with fists.

It's this:
If I hit Jimbob, will it start combat from a coded aspect?
Meaning rounds and deadly intent.

If I hit Jimbob here, will it do a quasi emote type thing where he either dodges or I connect?
Meaning brawling, with all the limitations therein, like not being able to fight a pc that the code views as significantly weaker than you, not doing much real damage, and where each strike has to be typed in, and hopefully emoted.

That difference has little to do with steal or killing someone, since to my knowledge, you can't kill someone with the brawl code.  I don't even think it will let you knock someone out. (Not sure about that one, but I do know a while back there was discussion about not being able to hit obviously weaker or very injured pc's with brawl code.)

Though it'd be kindof cool if you could take advantage of a brawl to perform OTHER lawlessness. Hey! Spanky, go start a fight with that guy, I'll pick the Lord Templar's pocket during the commotion.

Yesh.

Proxie

[Maybe42or54]

How about, using the command hit in a non brawl-coded bar you get a message to this effect:
Hitting him would be illegal in this tavern, if you still want to attack, use kill.

[proxie]

How about, using the command hit in a non brawl-coded bar you get a message to this effect:
Hitting him would be illegal in this tavern, if you still want to attack, use kill.

MMmm... Like it much!

There's precident for that where if you take things from certain objects, it counts as stealing and it warns you with a similar message.


Proxie

[jhunter]

Because it's technically illegal in any tavern to attack someone. It's just that in some taverns there is less likely to be militia or anyone who cares enough to report it to the authorities.

That's the way I see it.

[Maybe42or54]

Fine.

Hit target
You notice a soldier watching you and you decide to back off. If you wish to proceed, use kill.

[jhunter]

Fine.

Hit target
You notice a soldier watching you and you decide to back off. If you wish to proceed, use kill.

In which case if you were paying attention to your surroundings you'd know that before you try to hit someone.  :wink: As someone else said it contributes to people not paying attention to their surroundings. The descriptions are there for many reasons. *big thumbs down*

[Maybe42or54]

Forgive me for being positive. I didn't see a problem in the first place.

The message is supposed to sound like you are paying attention to your surroundings. If you weren't, you can use kill.

[Synthesis]

How about, instead of implementing a 'brawl test' command, we simply add some room echoes to reflect the environment and the occasional fights that may break out:

In crappy Tavern A, you might get the room echo:

"A pair of soldiers in the back of the room laugh and begin placing bets as a brawl erupts between a few dusty mercenaries."

And in upscale Tavern B, you'd get the echo:

"An enraged dwarf begins to make a scene, but is dragged to the street by a pair of scowling soldiers after breaking a few empty mugs."

This would
1. Solve the problem of adding additional code.
2. Solve the problem of people simply not paying attention to their surroundings.
3. Ultimately, be more aesthetically pleasing, assuming you came up with some better echoes than my pathetic examples above.

[jhunter]

How about, instead of implementing a 'brawl test' command, we simply add some room echoes to reflect the environment and the occasional fights that may break out:

In crappy Tavern A, you might get the room echo:

"A pair of soldiers in the back of the room laugh and begin placing bets as a brawl erupts between a few dusty mercenaries."

And in upscale Tavern B, you'd get the echo:

"An enraged dwarf begins to make a scene, but is dragged to the street by a pair of scowling soldiers after breaking a few empty mugs."

This would
1. Solve the problem of adding additional code.
2. Solve the problem of people simply not paying attention to their surroundings.
3. Ultimately, be more aesthetically pleasing, assuming you came up with some better echoes than my pathetic examples above.

I like this idea because it adds to the environment and still leaves it open for people to pay attention to where they are and what's going on around them. If they choose to ignore it or not pay attention then they will pay the price for it.
It doesn't have a safety latch for those who aren't paying attention and it adds to immersion rather than detracting from it.

[bloodfromstone]

Room echoes would solve the problem nicely. While I still have no objection to a coded 'brawl test', I think that the echoes would give people who don't know the brawl coded bars yet a way of paying attention to their surroundings.
I know I've been unsure myself as to whether or not certain places supported it, and I know that with the number of bars their are out there, eventually there would be one that wouldn't quite cross into the brawling line from the builder's perspective, but might from mine. A few fist fights would happen here and there occasionally, and people who frequent these places would get an idea of how much attention the soldiery pays, in my opinion. This is what the echoes would give some of us who were less familiar with the code access to.

[Maybe42or54]

That'd work.

After noticing a noble watching the small dwarf punch someone, a pair of soldiers drag them off screaming.




The echoes just can't show up constantly, it would give the wrong message also. It is still a good idea though.

[jhunter]

The echoes jsut can't show up constantly, it would give the wrong message also.

Very good point.

[jmordetsky]

[EDIT - Deleted. Trust me.]

[jstorrie]

How would brawl test hurt the game at all? Most of the taverns already have coded echoes that can give you the right information, but I don't see anything wrong with telling people the OOC status of a room so they know how they can play a scene in it.

Keep the existing bar echoes, because there are already a lot, and also add brawl test.

[Nyard]

No, I was being serious, that he got in trouble for trying to brawl in the wrong bar.  The friend that got in trouble just happens to be the notorious face-eater.  He made me add the "JUSTICE!" part.  I'm sorry about that.  But I definitely think it would be a good idea, if it could be done.

[Maybe42or54]

First off.
Dumbfucks don't live long in a world where everyone is out to get them.


Secondly.
Brawl test would just be a RP tool. You use it to know what you can and can't RP and I don't see how that is bad.

[Anonymous]

Brawl test would just be a RP tool.

That's funny, I consider it quite the opposite.

If people are relying on a command to determine their character's actions then it seems very much like a roleplay impediment.

If the scene calls for people to punch each other, then do it.  You shouldn't feel that the brawl code is a free pass to have a row whenever it seems convenient just because it is there, nor should you ignore your character's rage/impulses just because there is no brawl code.

nosave on ; hit jackass

I've done it, it's fun while it lasts.

[House Rising Sun]

This would be unnecessary if the brawling code were included in every bar location in the game.

No fighting in the Trader's you say? Not quite. I can see a smack or two being exchanged before the proprietor calls in John Law, as long as it ends immediately and the place doesn't get rowdy. On the other hand, in the Gaj, the fight would be allowed up until a weapon is drawn or someone gets seriously injured. A way to distinguish between the two, and between all the shades of grey in between, is to have the crim flag come more or less randomly, after enough 'hit' uses within any given hour. Based on such things as the time of game day, the pc population within the room, even the hourly income of the merchant, a player wanting to get into a fight has more realistic concerns on his mind than whether or not the room has the script or whether there's a templar nearby, or whatever else.

[Maybe42or54]

I've done it, it's fun while it lasts.

All of 2 seconds.

Up to 24 hours and 2 minutes before you can play again.



Though I am of the opinion that every tavern should have the brawl code on. Every tavern is dirty and gritty, no matter who goes there. It is the nature of Zalanthas.
If someone punches and a noble gets annoyed.
Wish all I just contacted an NPC templar and requested he clear the hooligans out.

[LauraMars]

A wraith wanders in from the north, holding a teddy bear.

Vaugely gesturing, you say, in sirihish,
"Are we voting?  What's going on?  Oh.  Well I think it's a good idea, for all positive reasons stated above.  Vote Brawl, for great justice."

A wraith wanders south.

[Marauder Moe]

[reposted because I forgot there were 2 threads on this issue]

People (newer players in particular) would start basing their IC choice to start a fight or not based on an OOCly-gained foreknowledge of the consequences.  Granted, that happens already through a player's past characters, but I think facilitating it more with code isn't a good idea.  Also, remember that you CAN be arrested for brawling even in a brawl-code tavern.  With a test-command, I think you'll have more people whining about that.

[jhunter]

[reposted because I forgot there were 2 threads on this issue]

People (newer players in particular) would start basing their IC choice to start a fight or not based on an OOCly-gained foreknowledge of the consequences.  Granted, that happens already through a player's past characters, but I think facilitating it more with code isn't a good idea.  Also, remember that you CAN be arrested for brawling even in a brawl-code tavern.  With a test-command, I think you'll have more people whining about that.

:roll:  You've got that right, I can see it now:

"I did the brawl test and it said I could but that big, mean and nasty ol' templar arrested me anyway! This is injustice! I want justice! I wouldn't have brawled there if the code hadn't said I could brawl there! I wished up and told the imms but they were mean to me and let that big, mean and nasty ol' templar arrest me anyway!"

[jstorrie]

Would >brawl test change someone's mind about fighting in a tavern? Sure. Would that be bad? No, because the difference between a brawl-enabled tavern and a no-brawl tavern is the difference between trying to kill someone and trying to punch someone. Literally. If you >hit amos in the Sanc, you're trying to kill him as far as the code is concerned. But maybe you just wanted to rough him up a little?

[jhunter]

Would >brawl test change someone's mind about fighting in a tavern? Sure. Would that be bad? No, because the difference between a brawl-enabled tavern and a no-brawl tavern is the difference between trying to kill someone and trying to punch someone. Literally. If you >hit amos in the Sanc, you're trying to kill him as far as the code is concerned. But maybe you just wanted to rough him up a little?

Either way attacking someone, whatever your intentions is illegal. You just have a much greater chance of getting into trouble for it in a tavern that does not support the brawl code.

[Jherlen]

Would >brawl test change someone's mind about fighting in a tavern? Sure. Would that be bad? No, because the difference between a brawl-enabled tavern and a no-brawl tavern is the difference between trying to kill someone and trying to punch someone. Literally. If you >hit amos in the Sanc, you're trying to kill him as far as the code is concerned. But maybe you just wanted to rough him up a little?

Either way attacking someone, whatever your intentions is illegal. You just have a much greater chance of getting into trouble for it in a tavern that does not support the brawl code.

Right. The common misconception people have here is that brawling is somehow legal whereas coded punches aren't. ANY attack is very illegal, and you can and should still certainly be arrested if you brawl the wrong  person instead of attacking them.

[Cale_Knight]

You should absolutely be arrested if you brawl somewhere and get caught.

But you won't be arrested if you try to brawl somewhere that doesn't have the code. You'll be killed, since as I understand it the guards won't bother trying to subdue you if you're in "combat" rather than just punching someone via the brawl code.

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

Fighting is illegal in both city-states. I think an OOC way of figuring it out was left out on -purpose.-

[Tlaloc]

Personally, my answer to this idea would be 'no'.

People should be aware of their surroundings, and actually pay attention to things like room descriptions, local social and cultural mores, and things like NPCs and VNPCs. We don't code things like 'quit test' to play the game for you. We code them to make it easier, OOCly, to find the way out of the game when you want to leave.

Brawling? I suggest keeping better track of your surroundings. If you're in a place where brawls are more commonplace and accepted, you'll find the brawl code in place. In places where its not, you won't.

Once again, the code is not there to play the game for you. If you don't pay attention to your surroundings, and get hauled off to jail or killed for starting a fight somewhere you shouldn't...tough beans.

[Kalden]

Quit test is a pretty pointless command in comparison. You can try quitting out anywhere; yeah, it's a little jarring, but there's no risk.

Brawls can get you you straight-up killed. Often bars are mis-flagged. Not all the bars that should be brawlable are. Do I want to trust my character's life to that?

Then again, it it a lotta work.

[Marauder Moe]

I believe Tlaloc just said that all bars that are meant to have brawl code have it...

[Cyrian20]

I think people are missing the point of the original post so here is my reading of it.

He is not asking if there is a test so he can worry about the crim flag, he want to know am I going to try to kill my besetestest buddy or throw a mug at em cause he is looking at the elfie girl I like so much.

I think it would help so when you go to hit em for making fun of the dwarf with a fake beard you don't all out try to kill him (which could happen if your some uber skilled byn m4xor and he is n0ob)

That is just how I read it though.

[Cale_Knight (I promise!)]

He is not asking if there is a test so he can worry about the crim flag, he want to know am I going to try to kill my besetestest buddy or throw a mug at em cause he is looking at the elfie girl I like so much.

Yes.

I don't give two craps about the crim flag. I just want to be able to tell whether the CODED effect of typing "hit joe" is going to be in line with the INTENDED IC intentions of my character.

[Marauder Moe]

Seems to me the difference between attempting to kill someone and just a harmless beating is whether or not you hold a weapon.  I don't think there is an IC difference between brawl code and using the hit command to box someone, just that in some places it echos differently (and doesn't bestow crimflag).