Zalanthan music

[Oxidised Lizard]

What is Zalanthan music like?  I'm guessing from the instruments around that some of it is similar to English and Italian music from the Renaissance or Baroque periods.  Also I guess some of it, perhaps in nomadic tribes would be like African tribal drumming.  What do you lot think?

How highly developed is music in the city states?  By the sophisticated instruments around, I'd expect the music to be tonal (and as I said earlier, similar to Renaissance music) and that there would be plenty of musical terminology about (ornaments like acciaccatura, apoggiatura etc., though I might find those terms a little jarring to come across in Arm).  

Though I've never heard of music being written down in Arm, only being passed on by ear, if music is as developed as the instruments there ought to be some form of noatation.  Then again, perhaps commoners are punished just as strictly for any attempt at writing down music as they are for trying to write words, though that would seem a bit illogical, as what harm can a piece of music do the Sorcer-Kings?

[Spoon]

http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/index.html

I'm sure you may have already looked, but this'll answer a few questions.

And as for the style, I personally like to draw from middle-eastern, african and indian music.

There's just something a bit la-de-da let's all go build flying machines about bringing influences from our renaissance into Arm. For me, the more ancient the style of music the better.

I don't really dig musical terminology IG either. It's far to similar to RL, only people who know music theory have a clue what the hell you're on about, and it's all in italian, which I also find jarring to come across in Arm.

[Bestatte]

Yeah I think some of the zalanthan instruments are a bit far-fetched. If you know anything about stringed instruments, you'd know that low tones need to have the gut strings wrapped in metal or they won't resonate. They'll just plunk. Playing a fiddle in Arm would be non-sensical, yet there are fiddles and even guitars in Arm. Sure, there are nylon-stringed guitars in real life, but the bottom 3 strings are all wrapped in nickel, copper, brass, or a combination. A nylon-string guitar (or gut, in Arm) would simply -not- play without that metal wrapping.

Kinda have to bend any knowledge of realistic music play and set it aside a bit to make the existing Arm instruments work in your head. One more thing to mention - the ukelin in Arm - I looked it up back when I played a bard because I'd never heard of the term and wanted to know if it was based in reality. It was just pretty neat, ya know?

Turns out, the ukelin was an invention of modern times (relatively speaking in the history of earth music), back in the day when inventors were creating all kinds of wacky stringed instruments just to be different. It is bowed, not plucked, and is usually set length-wise on a bench, with you sitting at the other end of the bench, bowing the strings from side to side. It is not played while standing up, or with fingerpicking. It sounds a little bit like a combo of a zither and a small hand-held irish harp, except the strings are bowed individually and the tone resonates longer.

Pretty awesome instrument, as wacky inventions go, but theoretically it too would be required to have metal-wrapped strings.

[Cuusardo]

It's a fantasy setting.  Use your imagination and don't ruin everything with science.  

[marko]

What is Zalanthan music like?  

Music in the game is across the board.  It is a broad based spectrum of 'talking drums' to complex harmonies of two or three bards playing together.

How highly developed is music in the city states?  

In Tuluk music is very highly developed.  For many kings ages the bards have been working on music, learning how to play, and developing music.  For hundreds of years music has developed and thus, its complexity has grown over time.  The bards of Poets' Circle begin at an early age in learning instrumental music and song - and many of these bards would be the virtuosos of today and our classical music era.  

In Allanak music lags a bit behind because there is no such similar formal structure.  Therefore you will find the music in the south to be less complex and less 'deep' in meaning.  The simplicity of it would still bring out melody and basic harmony.

Though I've never heard of music being written down in Arm, only being passed on by ear, if music is as developed as the instruments there ought to be some form of noatation.  Then again, perhaps commoners are punished just as strictly for any attempt at writing down music as they are for trying to write words, though that would seem a bit illogical, as what harm can a piece of music do the Sorcer-Kings?

There is no written music.  Everything is done through instruction and learning by ear.  The bards hold classes for those as young as four years old to begin in their musical journey.  Typically, a bard will start with whatever instrument they showed the most innate ability with and learn what music is on that instrument.  After they get 'good' (in that they can play a standard repetoire of songs) with that instrument they begin to learn other instruments.  

As to the implication that certain instruments would not work logically - since the creatures and materials that these instruments are made from are not found on earth we have no way of determining the final result.  It may very well be that stringed instruments made with the guts of some weird insect would resonate with a purity and clarity that surprasses a modern stringed instrument of today.  Therefore, keep all modern day comparisons out of it - these instruments contain parts from things that have no comparison in our world.

[Cuusardo]

If there is no such thing as sheet music, why are there music stands in the game?

[Maybe42or54]

Bug it?

[Spoon]

It's a fantasy setting.  Use your imagination and don't ruin everything with science.  

I think this answers half the threads in the GDB.

And as for those music stands, I seem to remember them being for instruments rather than sheet music. I could easily be mistaken.

[Oxidised Lizard]

In Tuluk music is very highly developed.  For many kings ages the bards have been working on music, learning how to play, and developing music.  For hundreds of years music has developed and thus, its complexity has grown over time.  The bards of Poets' Circle begin at an early age in learning instrumental music and song - and many of these bards would be the virtuosos of today and our classical music era.  

From the docs:

There is no standard on how many notes a scale may contain, nor on how to interpret this scale

With this is in mind, I don't see how you can compare the music or musicians of Zalanthas to that of our Classical era.

complex harmonies of two or three bards playing together.

How can such complex harmonies have developed with no standard scale?  I can accept simple harmonies reminiscent of the Renaissance or before on Earth if there are one or more 'standard' scales which most bards use.  However, with no standards at all, complex harmony cannot have developed.

It's a fantasy setting. Use your imagination and don't ruin everything with science.

I mostly agree with this.  However, a degree of realism does help me to enjoy Arm.

To conclude, my main problem with music on Zalanthas is the lack of any common scales.  I bards have been working on music, developing it and playing together for many King's ages, there really ought to be some common standards shared between them.

I don't want real life scales injected into Zalanthas, nor do I want to know details of Zalanthan scales, like intervals between the notes.  I just wonder why no standards at all have developed after all these years.

[Delirium]

There IS a standard scale.

Read this.

[Oxidised Lizard]

I have already read that, and I quote from it:

There is no standard on how many notes a scale may contain, nor on how to interpret this scale

Perhaps it is just badly worded, and means that there are several standard scales used by bards, but it does say clearly that there is no standard scale.

[amoeba]

Eh.. the Music Theory stuff on the web is cute and all, in practical terms it's rather useless.  

These notes are based off of the old string instruments in which the tendons of animals were used for plucking. So the tendon of a carru tightened across a piece of wood and plucked would produce a fairly distinct tone, and would thusly be called a "carru."

Tuned how tightly?   This would be more of the color of the note rather than the pitch.  Much the same as a steel string guitar tuned at at E sounds different than a classical guitar string tuned to the same E.  The pitch, which is where the scale derives from,  is dependant on the frequency the string resonates at.  A given string could be turned to many different frequencies.

That being said, this is a text game in a fantasy setting.  You can take the documents at face value and use them as is, it would be more interesting saying something is tuned to the foot of a carru even though in RL this would be nonsensical.

[marko]

With this is in mind, I don't see how you can compare the music or musicians of Zalanthas to that of our Classical era.

For the sake of simplicity in making a description so people could understand the ability of the bards.  

Even without a standard scale, those talented bards are virtuosos in that they bring music alive with moving and stirring performances.  But, I would suggest that there are some guides that Circle Bards learn due to the overall structure of the Circle and the fact that many of these bards teach to other bards.  

Personally, I would interpret a repetoire of songs that all bards learn as an aspect of standardization.  I would also suggest that from the written quote of, "There is no standard on how many notes a scale may contain, nor on how to interpret this scale..." that there are interpretations by various groups (be it tribes, bards, or others) but no one has agreed across the world with a standard set.

Of course, this is my own personal opinion.

How can such complex harmonies have developed with no standard scale?  I can accept simple harmonies reminiscent of the Renaissance or before on Earth if there are one or more 'standard' scales which most bards use.  However, with no standards at all, complex harmony cannot have developed.

Have you ever listened to jazz being played without score, sheet music, or even any apparent direction?  You can harmonize with another musician without a 'standard' of notes simply by working with what is being played and adapting.  Improvisation is based entirely on emotional response to stimuli and this is what most bards do.  Therefore, we can say that these duets and small troupes do engage in complexities of harmony.

How complex is a matter open for interpretation.  

A lot can be learned 'by ear' and played by ear.  I've known musicians in the modern day who had never looked at sheet music before in their life and yet they played incredible tunes.  

To conclude, my main problem with music on Zalanthas is the lack of any common scales.  I bards have been working on music, developing it and playing together for many King's ages, there really ought to be some common standards shared between them.

Personally, I agree.  But a standard shared among bards does not mean the standard is standard across the Known World.   I think a lot of what is being dealt with here is a desire to leave things open so different regions of the game world can develop in their own manner.  

And, we have to remember, not everyone is a musician or interested in music theory.  That we can talk about a standard scale that is pentatonic or heptatonic with meaning and value... most people couldn't.  

If you seek the learn more and to develop music theory in Armageddon make a bard and partake in the ongoing discussions and developments of this thriving and wonderful aspect of Tuluki culture.

[Oxidised Lizard]

Improvisation is based entirely on emotional response to stimuli and this is what most bards do.

Not normally true.  Jazz improvisation is normally either a variation of the main tune, which is itself formed from a standard scale, or is made up on the spot using notes from a standard scale, such as a pentatonic or blues scale.  With some really modern jazz (For example: http://www.nedrothenberg.com/sound/crosscut_and_rip.mp3)...it again often makes use of standard scales, but when it doesn't it has evolved from the use of standard scales.

A lot can be learned 'by ear' and played by ear.  I've known musicians in the modern day who had never looked at sheet music before in their life and yet they played incredible tunes.

...which are made from standard scales.

As for the rest of your post, I agree.  I agree that there must be some standard scales at least in groups of bards, if not across the whole of the Known World, the standard folk songs being one source of evidence for that.

I also agree that it's best not to be too technical when playing a bard in game, and that the freedom provided by the docs is good.  Perhaps it would be useful to tone down the statement that there is no standardisation in the docs though, to avoid future confusion.

[Oxidised Lizard]

A point from my original post...
Why is there no written music in Arm?  Is it just because commoners aren't in the habit of writing down things, as writing is outlawed and they have a strong oral tradition instead?
Or is writing music specifically banned by the Sorcerer-Kings?

[Scar]

I find this thread very interesting and have thought about a few of these things, being a musician myself.  

I think that some of the vagueness regarding scales and other technical aspects of music are probably due to the person developing those files not being a trained musicians?  This game is so focused on details and reality and for those of us who are musicians and may choose to play on in the game, we crave more definition.  That's not a bad thing.

The bit about non-standardized scales -- I think that can be easily twisted around.  We don't have a standard set of scales on Earth.  In the west we tend to use the "octatonic scale" for most things, but there's pentatonic, hexatonic, heptatonic, chromatic, modal, whole tone, diminished, altered, and even some scales in the far east that use quarter pitches.  In the middle east (and in jazz/fiddling) the use of bending pitches adds a bit of cultural flair.  So if we can have this many scales, and more, in our own culture, I'm certain we can employ any of these within the game world since there is not specified scale in the helpfiles.

One thing I observed is wooden instruments in the south would fall apart in a hurry.  Without any moisture, the dryness would completely destroy any glued joints.  The best instruments to use would be bone, and even those would tend to crack.  I've often craved to see more desert-appropriate instruments in the south.  Even something using bars of obsidian or other stone to strike with a mallet would be better than the complex wood and gut instruments like the lute or guitar.  Hide drums are probably appropriate but I don't think many a noble that want drumming at a dinner.   :lol:  

Music stands for resting instruments on??...  AHHH!  That's terrible.  YOu don't rest instruments on music stands.  The stands tip over.  The only thing appropriate to set on a music stand is a flute or something small and tubular like that.  I cringe when I see children hang violins by the scroll from their music stands.  It's in bad form in the real world.  A bard in the game would value their instrument greatly and not want to risk a stupid stand tipping over and their instrument being ruined.  If not to hold music, then they're pointless.  

Finally, thoughts on this:

Have you ever listened to jazz being played without score, sheet music, or even any apparent direction? You can harmonize with another musician without a 'standard' of notes simply by working with what is being played and adapting. Improvisation is based entirely on emotional response to stimuli and this is what most bards do. Therefore, we can say that these duets and small troupes do engage in complexities of harmony.

A musician who is accustomed to learning by ear and improvising can probably go from culture to culture, listen to how their music is played and chime in with some suitable form of harmony, standard scales or vast variety of scales.  You can harmonize with another musician if you're used to doing it, yes.    I'd think bards in the game world would be particularly adept at it as they've never had written music.

[Bordelaise]

Even though I agree with those who say that there is a tendency on these board to get a tad too scientific about things, I was just thinking of some of the posts made here about scales. There seem to be a consensus that music has to be arranged around a scale of some sort (be it pentatonic, octatonic or ginandtonic), when the concept of scale really is nothing but one possible way to structure music, albeit a way we have grown so accustomed to in our world that it is very difficult to consider music without it. Miles Davis and others experimented with modal music where they tried to rid the world of scales. Possibly not very successful, but it did work to an extent. Drum-driven music is based on rhythm rather than scales, and only being an amateur at music myself I am sure there are other examples.

Basically though, I am pretty certain music COULD have taken another route than going down a scale.