A non-official request for players with karma

[Naiona]

First - let me preface this post with the statement that I am not making an official request nor am I speaking for anyone except myself as the Special Applications IMM.

Now that I have your attention:  I would like to request to all you trusted players with high enough levels of karma to allow you to play some of the scarier roles in the mud - please consider mixing in a few more mundane characters in between your karma based ones.

There are a lot of people with applications in to play certain roles, and they won't be able to do so - even if we think we might give them the chance - as long as those roles are overpopulated in game.

This is not a request that anyone -stop- playing the roles that their karma allows, merely an unofficial request that you mix it up a bit more and step back to allow others a chance to try some new things.  

You will notice I didn't mention any specific roles or types of characters here, and that was on purpose.  If you are thinking about playing something and are wondering if it will stop someone else's special application from going through, or if the role is overpopulated, I encourage you to email me and cc: the mud.  I will be happy to discuss possibilities with you.  Again, no one is obligated to abide by this request, and you may all still play whatever you have the karma to play without worry.  

Thanks.

[WarriorPoet]

*bangs on the table with his beer bottle* Hear hear!

Karma roles are all well and good, but when every other character you run into is a scary magicker or uber-raiding mul, it gets to be the norm. This is not what we want at all, in my opinion.

I remember a point in time when the occasional magicker I saw really did send a shiver of fear up my spine. Nowadays that's gone, because they are -everywhere-. I miss being afraid or at least skittish when I saw a gem, rather than emoting glancing at it distastefully before ignoring them like I did hte other three.

My pile o' karma has mostly sat unused, mostly because it's not my style and I  don't care to play magickers, but secondly because I see so many of them, I don't want to be just another face in the magicker crowd. A face in the commoner crowd is alright, because that's what 90% of people in Zalanthan are: Common.  

If the unique experience of seeing one of those uber-scary high-karma characters is becoming commonplace, we have a huge problem, in my opinion...

Anyway, agreed with Naiona. Return to your plain, karma-less roots occasionally.

-WP didn't mean to turn this into an anti-magicker spiel. He loves seeing SCARY[/i] magickers... Just not so many.

[RunningMountain]

Wow, this sounds familiar.. now who was saying something about too many people having karma and using it.. hmm.. I wonder.

[LauraMars]

I am scared of magickers.  Nobles and templars too.  It's all so terrifying, it's all so horrorshow.  It's such frightening stuff; boy howdy.  Please, let there be less of these people, so I can stop being so scared.

[Fnord]

I'd imagine high karma players could make a lot happen in more common rolls that might reach more players. Then again, high-karma rolls can garner a lot of participation too, but I still like the idea.

[Cenghiz]

It's already a must sometimes. To forget the IC information, it's best to leave the area and get to the furthest away spot ever possible, which's usually Tuluk. And after having been played an already stressful magicker who just died, eh.. A ranger or a merchant looks much more sympathetic instead of a hidden magicker who faces death three times a day.

[Gaare]

I did not play any magicker, because simply I find those roles extremely boring, especially if there are more then enough around. (I may be mistaken but, there are not many clans and groups for magickers, and when their number pass a certain limit.. well I have seen magickers bored to death and begin doing funny things.)

Also.. I think some guilds require high karma, not only because they are very powerful (actually I believe this is the least important reason), because those guilds are rare on Zalanthas and playing them is extremely difficult (socially, in survial sense also probably skill based) and well... boring.

At the buttom, human warrior/mercenary in Tza'i Byn rocks harder then almost anything I had chance to play or see so far.

[Marauder Moe]

So, let me get this straight... and play devil's advocate: you're asking that players who have earned karma make less karma characters because people who haven't earned karma won't have their special-app'ed karma characters denied because there are too many people who have earned that karma playing that sort of role?

Now, I do think that karma players should play non/lower karma characters every now and then, but I'm not sure I agree with this reason.

There's my two 'sids.

[Cenghiz]

This is a request. Also it's even unofficial. Naiona is sorry to reject a lot of special apps because there are 15 elementalists and 3 reenegade muls wandering around and not dying. As seen in that post, we're still allowed to make one magicker after another, just knowing it may diminish the chances of a newer player to try out a role.

[joking][Still, Devil's Advocate]Uh.. In contradiction to what I have mentioned, thinking about my past experiences with a few newbie karma 4 magickers, I would love to limit the quota if someone unaware of magick won't be playing an krathi or a whiran because of it. *wide, michieveous grin* [/Still, Devil's Advocate][/joking]

[marko]

If I were to paraphrase the request - it goes something like this:

For all of us with karma please don't make a high karma class over and over and over and over and over and over and over again just because you can.  Take breaks between making your high karma options.

I did not read this as a request saying don't make the high karma classes ever - it is a request to not repetively make the highest karama slot you have available all the time.

[Cuusardo]

I am inclined to agree with Naiona's feelings on the subject.  Variety is good!

[eska]

Whatever others say, I still love burglars and rangers, which require no karma. Also as Gaare said: playing a Byn merc is always much fun than trying to come up with a new emote for your newlyu branched spell.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

marko wrote:

For all of us with karma please don't make a high karma class over and over and over and over and over and over and over again just because you can.

Does this actually happen?
Perhaps I'm insane, but I like magickers. It's my favorite sort of role in any game, especially Armageddon. And after finally earning the karma to play some, it's kind of annoying to hear a lot of "magickers are boring" and "Bynners are always more fun" and "don't be another face in the crowd" and "there are too many magickers anyway". I don't want a lot of guilt with the role I choose to play.
But, if it's just out of courtesy to other players... fine. Duly noted.

[X-D]

I'd have to check, but I don't think I play more then 2 karma chars in a row...specialy if long lived...refreshing to play something else after that stint...of course, one or two non-karma and I'm ready again for a karma char.

[Ktavialt]

*stands up to the podium*

Hello, my name is Ktavialt, and I'm a Karmaholic... in my last five chars,
including the current one, I played one mundane role, three low-karma
magickers, and one really high karma special app. I hear Naiona loud and
clear, and will break this mold.

*steps off the podium, then turns around and stands up to the podium
again*

On the other hand, sounds like an awesome time to play a Nilazi.

*rushes off the podium*

- Ktavialt

[Armaddict]

[sarcasm][whine]What?!  I got magicker karma and I can't play ten of the same magicker in a row, playing everything nearly the same since that's how -I- think magick is?  I can't try to get all those spells useful for someone, and perhaps become the most powerful magicker of that class even after I've died repeatedly with that class.

Oh man!  This game isn't -fun-!

*stomps a foot, turns around, and goose steps around the house*
[/whine][/sarcasm]

I play the occasional magicker...and people who play them over and over seem to forget just how little of them there should be.  I'm willing to bet that some of those people who complained about the lack of interaction and the lack of people being scared enough of their magicker characters were people who play it over and over...basically, being a contribution to their own complaint.  If they're constantly....-constantly- around...you're not going to be as wary of their presence anymore.

I don't think this simple courtesy to other players is such a horrible request.

[facehugger]

Perhaps I'm insane, but I like magickers. It's my favorite sort of role in any game, especially Armageddon. And after finally earning the karma to play some, it's kind of annoying to hear a lot of "magickers are boring" and "Bynners are always more fun" and "don't be another face in the crowd" and "there are too many magickers anyway". I don't want a lot of guilt with the role I choose to play.
But, if it's just out of courtesy to other players... fine. Duly noted.

I think this is also two fold. As has been stated, variety is good. When you end up making the same character, again and again, it's not only often harmful to your own RP abilities, but also limits the growth of the mud itself.

Play a couple magickers. Then toss in some dwarven ranger, or half-elf merchant. Explore other aspects of the game. Even if "I've done all that, once upon a time" you will often find that things can, and do, often change. And playing that type of role now, as compared to months/years ago, can be a different, new and exciting experience.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I, personally, would never play two magickers in a row (except if the first one died after only three hours of playtime, or something). My gripe is that when I finally do play my magicker character after four or five mundane ones, I'll get the same amount of OOC contempt as some one who's on their fifth Krathi in a row. IC contempt is fine, of course. But I don't want to be 'another' magicker. Which I guess means I should be in line with these "down with the magickers!" things. But somehow that just doesn't cut it with me. It makes me feel selfish when I do decide to play a magicker, which is utter bullshit. People should be able to play what they want. It's a game. People should of course be courteous, and not play twenty sorceror-muls in a row, but I don't think people like that are very common.
With that said, Naiona's request is perfectly reasonable. I follow it, you should too, and everyone else should stop whining. If you play five magickers in a row, stop. If you roll your eyes every time you see 'another' magicker, stop. More people play Armageddon than there were five years ago. It should stand to reason that there will be more magickers around than there were five years ago. Cope.
Eh, sorry. Bad mood. I'm done.

[Maybe42or54]

About five months Ago, or so, I was a walking through Allanak, having a good ol' day and i saw maybe five magicker PCs for every 1 non-magicker pc. That is the only time I roll my eyes.

Though, on the other hand, If I have been dyeing to play a Mul for the past year and a half and have had my emails about the muls ignored for about that amount of time, and I can't play one because I have seen three in quick order succession that got to play them because they have been kissing ass or Tek knows what else for the past three years, I may roll my eyes again and yell a curse at my stupid ass dog that always manages to stop and scratch its damn ass in the middle of my hallway while I am carrying a Hulk amount of groceries so I don't have to make a second trip to the car.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I agree that I was seeing too many magickers, now either some of them have died or just went into hiding from me.. I don't know.

In any case, I have never for the likes of me played more than one magicker in a row. In fact, I've only played two and they were of the same type. There has always been a character in between each of those, and I actually believe that there were more like 4-5.

-shrug-

Oh, Nice 8 line sentence Maybe42or54, tsk tsk.
I am a grammar nazi today.

[Myrdryn]

marko wrote:

For all of us with karma please don't make a high karma class over and over and over and over and over and over and over again just because you can.

Does this actually happen?

Yes, this does happen.

[Malifaxis]

Myrdryn Intoned:

Yes, this does happen.

That sucks.

[moab]

Simple solution:
Make karma spendable.
You play a 1 karma role, you spend a point of karma.
You play an 8 karma role, you spend eight points of karma.

Get rid of special applications all together.

Be more rewarding with karma.

Done.

[Cenghiz]

Then me, as a non-peak player now because of work will play one more Elkran and then I'm done? I don't think so. Karma is hard earned.
If imms start being more karma awarding because karma gets spent, people will become deserving more karma then they can afford with their level of responsibility and RP.
Also I believe I don't need to speak about non-peak players who still play good and earn some karma, but who don't get watched that often to re-earn it again and again.
And I DO want to insist, as Naiona said, I HAVE the right to play an elkran, then a drovian, then an elkran, then a drovian, then an elkran because the right's given to me. Naiona requests I do not, so she may accept a few more 5th level karma-special apps. And I will obey her request. Period.

[Ghost]

Simple solution:
Make karma spendable.

I kind of like this idea.  Considering the  rate of giving karma is bumped up...

Yeah it might be a very cool solution.

[Nao]

Simple solution:
Make karma spendable.

I kind of like this idea.  Considering the  rate of giving karma is bumped up...

Yeah it might be a very cool solution.

I don't like the idea, at all. Even if I'll probably stick with 0 karma forver, but... I've seen this on another mud. Everyone will keep saving uo for those 4, 5, 7 or whatever karma role and no one plays the 1 karma things. 1 karam roles are underrepresented because everyone hesistates to spend karma. It sucks, badly.

[proxie]

Not entirely true that people will always save up.

Some of us would love to get to play one of those low point elementalists. Some of us don't think we'd ever be able to grasp the mindset of a mul or a sorc.

And even your uber kool half giant sorcerer gets boring after a while. Also, the imms may someday decline Jimbob's 8th sorcerer in a row with the comment "We'd like to see you try something different this time. Think on it please?" You never know.

I personally would wait to have more than one point, just because the last time I tried a delf, it was a rip roaring failure and everyone involved was reasonably unhappy by the time she kicked off.   :lol:  I'd rather have something else under my belt before I try and grasp that mindset again. Pretty sure I'd have a better handle of it, but eh, I'm a bit on the cautious side. Once bitten, thrice shy.

Proxie

[Gaare]

Simple solution:
Make karma spendable.

Sounds fine at first glance, but I guess that would not be a good solution because it gives much more burden to IMMs, since they are obligated to grant Karma much more then usual. Also I do not like Karma to be seen as a kind of reward really, and SoI Mud (which is the single MUD I know uses that system) focused its karma system on rewarding players with extra roles. I maybe mistaken since I did not have chance to play that MUD but I sensed It is also a bit of control mechanism as well. When points are coming and going that fast, a player feels the breath of IMM.

IMHO ARM's system lies on trusting its fellow players' maturity (even we, players time to time do not trust each other), so I believe Naiona's gentle reminder should be enough solution.

[Cuusardo]

Do the IMMs ever reject applications on those grounds?

[Nao]

Simple solution:
Make karma spendable.

Sounds fine at first glance, but I guess that would not be a good solution because it gives much more burden to IMMs, since they are obligated to grant Karma much more then usual. Also I do not like Karma to be seen as a kind of reward really, and SoI Mud (which is the single MUD I know uses that system) focused its karma system on rewarding players with extra roles. I maybe mistaken since I did not have chance to play that MUD but I sensed It is also a bit of control mechanism as well. When points are coming and going that fast, a player feels the breath of IMM.

IMHO ARM's system lies on trusting its fellow players' maturity (even we, players time to time do not trust each other), so I believe Naiona's gentle reminder should be enough solution.

Well, I have played there, and from how I see it, you're right the system there is much more problematic. I like the one we currently have much better, as stated somethere http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14351&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 there, too. Roles don't cost 'karma', only races do, but there is still some stuff going wrong there.

[jhunter]

I think the system is fine the way it is. People do need to just stop making high-karma role after high-karma role. Mix it up a bit. Issue resolved.

[Rindan]

One potential solution would be to make karma slowly regnerate.  So, lets say I have 7 karma.  I decide to play a sorc and so spend all 7 karma and die after 3 hours.  Now I have zero karma.  Each two weeks (or whatever) I regain a point of karma until I am back up to 7.   So, have semi-expendable karma.  Once you get a point, you keep that point.  If you spend it, your max karma doesn't change, just how much you have to spend.  Over time your karma builds back up.  Think of it something like hit points in how you can lose them, but can always get them back by simply waiting.  If you tend to play long lived characters, you wouldn't even notice, as your karma would regen fully before you die.  If you try and burn through 5 karma 5 magikers in a week, you won't be able to.  The karma system basically stays the same and the imms don't do any more work, but you limit how quickly and often people can play karma roles.

[Nao]

I like that idea.. Problem is, it still wouldn't keep anyone from playing five long-lived sorcerer muls in a row... but that would definitely be an improvement, especially if we work on that a bit ig and don'T let the gemmers live long  :twisted:

[Armaddict]

...why are we talking about potential solutions, exactly?

The -solution- is simple.  Play a karma race/class, enjoy it, and move on.  If you liked it a lot, give it some time before you play it again.

Is it -really- this difficult?

[Angela Christine]

...why are we talking about potential solutions, exactly?

The -solution- is simple.  Play a karma race/class, enjoy it, and move on.  If you liked it a lot, give it some time before you play it again.

Is it -really- this difficult?

It isn't difficult to avoid getting AIDS either (avoid high risk activities, use condoms, use clean needles) but people are still looking for a cure.  Why?  Because people don't want to kill AIDS (or heart disease, or cancer) by exercising personal responsiblity, we want to be able to do the stuff we want to do and then have a magic bullet available to fix any problems.  Ephedra, tapeworms and lead poisoning aren't good ways to lose weight and certainly don't lead to becoming "fit" but they are potentially easier than eating a well-balanced diet with plenty of vegetables, and getting fresh air and exercise.

Asking people to solve a problem by behaving responsibly isn't as effective as we might hope.  Code based nudges in the right direction can be helpful.


Angela Christine

[Armaddict]

Wow.

You compare playing a certain race/class to having sex, and the filled quota of that race/class to AIDS?

Jesus.  This really -is- crack.

[Halaster]

Simple solution:
Make karma spendable.
You play a 1 karma role, you spend a point of karma.
You play an 8 karma role, you spend eight points of karma.

Get rid of special applications all together.

Be more rewarding with karma.

Done.

No, this will not happen.  Karma is an indication of how much we trust a player.  If we trust them to play a mul, when trust them to play more than one.  Karma will not become spendable, at all.

As a matter of fact, we have absolutely no intention whatsoever to make any changes at all of any kind to the karma system as it is now.  As staff, we are completely totally satisfied with the way it is, right now, and have absolutely no intention whatosever of any kind of changing it.

[LoD]

No, this will not happen. Karma is an indication of how much we trust a player. If we trust them to play a mul, when trust them to play more than one. Karma will not become spendable, at all.

As a matter of fact, we have absolutely no intention whatsoever to make any changes at all of any kind to the karma system as it is now. As staff, we are completely totally satisfied with the way it is, right now, and have absolutely no intention whatosever of any kind of changing it.

Halaster, why do you always have to muddle up threads with vague replies that confuse us with rhetoric and big words!? (I kid!)

I agree.  I don't think karma should change either, but I would love to see players exercise more diversity in character choices.  I've talked to players who seem to have fallen in love with a particular type of role or character concept and can't seem to move on to something else.  Whether that particular class/guild is on Naoina's list, I cannot say, but I could wager a guess some of them are.

Mundane characters often allow for a more rapid and high profile integration into the world dynamic, that being the mix of characters interacting with one another.  The more the better.  There's a lot of great RP to be had that has nothing to do with spell weaving, mind bending, demons, elementals, fireballs, invisibility, sorcery, mystic runes and all of that stuff.

I've often heard people say that they've "played every possible role" or that "mundane roles are boring" and I am just astounded.  I've only played a handful of characters that I feel had enough time to develop into deep and realistic characters.  I'd love to see more people joining the ranks of the regular.

-LoD

[Armaddict]

Listen to LoD people.  He's SMRT!

[Halaster]

Yeah, I agree with LoD.  While I personally do enjoy playing a mage here and there, my two most favorite characters were a burglar and a ranger.

But having said that, if someone really enjoys playing a mage, then they should play a mage (if they can).  The game is about having fun.  You should first make sure you are having fun, then try and help others have fun.

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

Simple solution:
Make karma spendable.
You play a 1 karma role, you spend a point of karma.
You play an 8 karma role, you spend eight points of karma.

Get rid of special applications all together.

Be more rewarding with karma.

Done.

That is how SOI does it (exactly). It's not a bad idea, but would provide too little benefit for the work it'd take to change over, in my opinon.