Subguilds

[Alnir]

Now, I know this has been an issue for a while now, but I was just thinking, and I just really wanted some feedback.

Instead of the subguilds we have now, which offer a set amount of skills, why not have just a list of skills to choose from? Albeit not the big ones, such as tentmaking, wagonmaking, that sort of thing, but, more based on your background. Say..You're character grew up in the northlands, near the forest. He would obviously be more comfortable with wood, so maybe he gets woodworking, and, since there are so many vines there, maybe he's comfortable working with them, too, so he gets, Basketweaving, or something. The same can be said about the southlands. Someone who's comfortable with working with obsidian everyday, or glass, would know how to create things with those, so they would choose something like jewelrymaking, or something surrounding glassworking. But /you/ would be able to choose them, not have them set by a certain subguild. Say your character was a hunter that worked with durrit a lot. Eventually, he got comfortable with working with their pelts, and was able to work armor from them, or he was able to make knives from their claws, so he gets knife making. /He/ would be able to choose what he wanted, not what was already set for him. Please don't flame, it was just an idea, and I'd really like some feedback on it.

[Cuusardo]

I think things are fine the way they are.  The way guilds and subguilds work, you can pick combinations that fit all of those.  If you want a durrit hunter that can make knives, make a ranger/weaponcrafter, and so on.

[Rindan]

I imagine the reason why it is done the way it is done is more for balance reasons then anything else.  Not all skills are created equal.  If people get to pick two skills, there is one skill that close to 90% of the people would pick, namely listen.  The only 'good' way to deal with this, in my opinion, would be to give the player 5 points and then cost each skill.  Listen might cost 5, but basket weaving costs 1.  It would allow a little more customization, but in the end I think such a plan would be doomed by the fact that it sends the character creation process in I way I have a feeling the admin would be against.  Character creation is suppose to emphasize creating a living and breathing character.  Throwing in skills and points and other such things is just not the impression that this MUD wants to give when players first log in.

So, yes, great idea.  If this system was in, I would use it to help refine my character concepts.  That said, I doubt it will happen because it is just a bad first impression to the game and lead to people min-maxing their characters more then sub-guilds already let them.  I personally like the system as it is.  The subguild system offers a lot of flexibility.  If you want more then what the sub-guild process has, you can always bang out an e-mail and give the admin a good reason why your mul warrior needs poison, backstab, and invisibility.

[Forty Winks]

Good reasons. I think there are a few threads from abit back that delt with this as well.

[EvilRoeSlade]

For the reasons Rindan suggested, I'd be in favor of this idea, but only if listen wasn't a selectable option.

[My 2 sids]

I like this idea.

If people were to "choose only the best" well, then, we'd really see the twinkish from those that round out their character based on background wouldn't we?

[Yokunama]

The current list of subguilds with crafting skills do allow you to do things such as the hunter who works with the durrit. I really see no need for getting rid of the subguilds.

[Spoon]

I like this idea.

If people were to "choose only the best" well, then, we'd really see the twinkish from those that round out their character based on background wouldn't we?

Great for avoiding twinks, but I don't see it as a positive asset to the mud. It'd be a big game of hide and seek. With the odd sandstorm.

I reckon if we did have skill lists to pick from, we'd be posting threads asking for subguilds. The current system solves more problems than I think any change would. Plus it's simple, as other muds with lists of skills to pick from are a nightmare for new players.

[Maybe42or54]

Karma for a reason.

Level 3 karma, you have the option to "Grow your own subguild."
Pick 1-5 extra skills, or so.

You get 10 points.
Listen costs five.
Desert travel costs five.
Sandstorm navigation costs five.
Scan costs five.
Sap costs four.
Tent, wagon, instrument crafting cost five each.
All other crafting skills cost 1 or more.
Kick costs 2.
Steal costs 4.
And so on and so on.

[House Rising Sun]

None of this will ever fit the format of Armageddon, no matter how many times they show up on the gdb. It has nothing to do with realism or gameplay-induced balance, but much to do with the way the game is intended to be played.

Think FPS games. Putting a radar, ammo counter, and life counter, on a game that focuses on having as uncluttered a screen as possible so that you see the world exactly through the character's eyes, would be pointless. Counterproductive. That important game feature is the same in Armageddon.

In short, part of Arm's immersion is the almost detail-free character interface.  Keep it unobtrusive.

[Cyrian20]

Hmm can't remember who said it ,maybe halaster, when they were discussing new karma methods...


If it ain't broke...

[Fnord]

Level 3 karma, you have the option to "Grow your own subguild."
Pick 1-5 extra skills, or so.

Point buy results in min-maxing in any game. It's the nature of that beast.

I'm fine with it as it is, because it seems to offer a nice balance of skill selection and roleplay potential. It might not ever be perfect (insofar as the player's vision for their PC), but often those little differences between the vision and how it turns out can be the most fun.

[Tlaloc]

Instead of the subguilds we have now, which offer a set amount of skills, why not have just a list of skills to choose from? Albeit not the big ones, such as tentmaking, wagonmaking, that sort of thing, but, more based on your background. Say..You're character grew up in the northlands, near the forest. He would obviously be more comfortable with wood, so maybe he gets woodworking, and, since there are so many vines there, maybe he's comfortable working with them, too, so he gets, Basketweaving, or something. The same can be said about the southlands. Someone who's comfortable with working with obsidian everyday, or glass, would know how to create things with those, so they would choose something like jewelrymaking, or something surrounding glassworking.

I feel that the major flaw with this idea is that, honestly, this is how you should be selecting your subguilds. If your character grew up in the northlands, near the forest, and was comfortable with wood...take the lumberjacking subguild. If your character grew up in the southlands, and would be good at using stone/working obsidian...take either the stoneworker subguild, or the jewler subguild.

Once again, the whole reason subguilds were put into the game, was to give people a chance to round out their characters with their backgrounds. We had so many PCs say: "Prior to becomming an elementalist, my PC was a stone crafter. Can I have stone crafting as a skill?", that we eventually decided that subguilds should be added to help round out PCs backgrounds. If you are choosing a subguild for their skillset, and supposed coded 'advantages', rather than your background you are effectively minmaxing, and twinking. Such behavior is considered Naughty (tm) by the staff, and is noted.

The current subguilds are designed to be generic enough to fit most backgrounds, and players are welcome to special app for anything that fits outside of the 'norm'.