Take the canned emotes out of brawl

[jmordetsky]

I think it would be better if it just said, hits so and so very hard, hard, etc.

Let the players emote the fights.

I hate seeing the same brawl emotes over and over again.

[Cuusardo]

The one that jars me is the one about smashing a mug of ale over the person's head.  I ran an RPT where we used the brawl code, and no one was allowed weapons of any kind.  There was no way they could reach mugs of ale from where they were.  The first time it happened, it made me go "What the hell?" and then every time after that I just shook my head.

[Mean_Old_Bastard]

I'm all for that. The canned emotes do take you out of context, and I've seen them frowned at oocly and then just ignored.

The emotes are played as what happend. So it'd be nice not to even -have- the canned emotes.


edit: PS the brawl code rocks.

[Anonymous]

In general I'd like to see all emotes be the domain of the player.  The dwarf highkicking the half-giant is another example when using the kick command of a coded emote that doesn't always fit.  Of course that sort of folds into the whole idea of making a cosmetic change of the kick command to a generic 'strike' command.

Still I agree, I haven't used the latest incarnation of the brawl command but I apprecaite the effort, still generic, coded emotes don't always fit and as such it seems better to omit them.

[bloodfromstone]

I've never used the brawl code myself, but I'm all for this change. It sounds like the brawl echos are fun and probably amusing the first few times, but they do kind of intrude into the players' domain.

[Tlaloc]

Eh, personally, I like the brawl code the way it is. Just as in many things in the game, this is a game which is built around roleplay, supported by hard code.

The code is there to support people wanting to have a brawl. You do not have to only use the coded emotes to have a brawl...indeed, you're encoraged to heighten the experience by padding it all with emotes of your own. Its up to the individual players, then, to roleplay responsibly.

However...sometimes this does not happen, and so: the code determines what happens. I realize that it may be pandering to the lowest common denominator, but really: not everyone who plays the game can resist not turning into an unstoppable bar-brawler when given the opportunity.

Finally, if you want to see some extra non 'canned' echos added to the brawl code, you are free to submit some yourselves.

[joyofdiscord]

Having the code determine success or failure is great, awesome, fantastic really.  What I wonder, however, does "the code determining things" mean that when we see a "clonking someone over the head with a beer mug" echo, do we have to roleplay actually getting clonked over the head with a beer mug (or, for the other player, actually having grabbed a beer mug to clonk the other over the head with)?  Wouldn't the bartender get a little miffed at all the mugs getting shattered over the course of the fight?

[Maybe42or54]

No, joyofdiscord. Treat it like the "kick" command.

You can either kick them, headboot them, elbow them, bite them, etc.

Just hope the other one plays along.

[joyofdiscord]

Well, then, I think that's the point of the thread.  Simplifying the echos would make it easier for the other player to play along instead of deciding whether that's an actual beer mug that hit them or whether it's an obscure code for "he managed to bite your ankle".  If we're just supposed to ignore the shattering mugs, why have the code mention them in the first place?

Just seems like an extra layer of confusion to put over everything, tempting newbies to complain about the broken mugs everywhere when it was just a hair-pulling match or somesuch.  And who could blame them?  With a half-dozen lines about broken mugs interspersed between the lines about pulling hair, a reasonable person would be completely justified in assuming that those echos represent parts of the actual events.  

Personally, I am all for making the brawl echoes generic.

[Maybe42or54]

Finally, if you want to see some extra non 'canned' echos added to the brawl code, you are free to submit some yourselves.

Here you go discourd.


I personally wish there would be more canned emotes like that, especially when you get the
"You duck under soandso's mug and throw a knee up into there gut, forcing them to the ground."

[joyofdiscord]

I'm sorry, I may have been unclear, because you're not understanding me.  First, any echo I submit would be "canned."  That's what "canned" means.  It means it is always the same no matter the situation.  It's not a bad thing, per se.  Virtually all output you get from the mud is "canned," except emotes and speech from other players, because the mud is run by code and not a sentient cyber-organic supermachine.

Second, no matter what echo I submit, no matter how much I love and adore the brawl move it depicts, it will still not apply to 95% of the swings thrown in a brawl, and it will just be a line of text that players have to learn to ignore.

I am not asking for -more- flavor text in the brawl code.  My position is that that would be undesirable, because it means players have to learn to recognize that the echo in question is a brawl code echo and not an emote, and that they must therefore ignore it within the context of the brawl.

I know that when I first saw some of the brawl code echoes, I wasn't sure at first if they were emotes or coded echoes, and I was a little confused as to how to interpret the situation.  I, personally, don't want a greater variety of brawl echoes that I have to memorize so I know when to ignore them and substitute in "success" or "failure" in my mind.

What I would like to see is something like this:

"The tall, muscular man successfully hits the tall, dark-haired man."
AND
"The tall, muscular man tries to hit the tall, dark-haired man, but misses."
and nothing else (maybe crit failures or successes).  Note that these echoes are also "canned," but they are open-ended in what they actually depict.

That would determine success or failure, and players can emote for themselves how those successes or failures actually happen.

But hey, the world will keep right on spinning with the current code.  Players will work around it the best they can, with the occasional minor spat of confusion, and Armageddon will continue being awesome, with awesome barfights.  I won't stick on a point just because people disagree with me.  I'm happy to suck it up and keep on going the same as ever, but I will stick on a point if the point itself isn't clearly understood.

[jcarter]

I like the code, and I like the emotes. The brawl code acts like a slowed down combat where you manually have to hit the other person. By the time you're done emoting, you'll have missed two or three swings you normally would have taken at the other person, and from my experience that can mean a completely different outcome for the match.

[Nyard]

Brawling is fun, but I've never gotten a mug attack coded emote.  It's always a backhand, or a punch to the face or the gut.  Or me missing, which is either some form of my character missing, or somebody getting in the way.

[Maybe42or54]

I always get the ones where I grab their fist and knee them in the gut or I launch them into a wall, or I throw them over a table.

[jmordetsky]

Eh, personally, I like the brawl code the way it is. Just as in many things in the game, this is a game which is built around roleplay, supported by hard code.

The code is there to support people wanting to have a brawl. You do not have to only use the coded emotes to have a brawl...indeed, you're encoraged to heighten the experience by padding it all with emotes of your own. Its up to the individual players, then, to roleplay responsibly.

However...sometimes this does not happen, and so: the code determines what happens. I realize that it may be pandering to the lowest common denominator, but really: not everyone who plays the game can resist not turning into an unstoppable bar-brawler when given the opportunity.

Finally, if you want to see some extra non 'canned' echos added to the brawl code, you are free to submit some yourselves.

Why wouldn't you want players to emote it themselves? The code should determine that hit, miss and the extent of such, not the nature. The combat code doesn't say, you butt bill with the back of your spear, he stumbles backward. It says, you lightly stab bill. Which is all it should say.

Why is brawl different? If anything, the turnbased nature of brawl gives players an opportunity to paint their enviroment. Cursardo's example is prime, if I don't want to hit someone with a mug, why are you forcing me to through a canned emote? Why is code making that choice for me?

From what I can see, most people ignore these emotes and add their own.  The code should be physics, not color, If I wanted to throw a mug at someone I'd do:

get mug
ep mug
throw mug elf

my 2 cents.

[Mean_Old_Bastard]

Code Select Expand

Dust stirs up from the floor as the figure in a dusty hooded brown sandcloth cloak's foot whirs across the ground, rushing up at the tall figure in a hooded, red sandcloth windcloak.

walking>hit tall
You grab a rough clay mug of ale and hurl it at the tall figure in a hooded, red sandcloth windcloak's head.

This example isn't TOO bad. Hence the descriptive attack is rushing, but, he didn't grab a mug. He wasn't even reaching for a weapon.

I -really- did not apprechiate the canned emote of grabbing a mug. Eh, it's no big deal. Shrugged off. But...

I really would prefer, along with jmordetsky, not to add more canned emotes, but remove the existing. I had tons of fun with that brawl code, even though only used a little bit. It really was awesome. But I would prefer 'the tall man succesfully hits the short man' rather than expertly smashing a mug into my opponents left bicep while doing a triple flip dive over the bar. When I only emoted kicking him in the shins.

[Rindan]

A compromise solution might be to give players the choice.  If you just type 'hit elf', then you get the canned emote.  Honestly, I think the command emotes are just fine for a lot of people.  I know more then one mercenary of mine would have merrily thrown someone into a table or bashed them across the head with a mug.  Letting the code decide adds a little surprise.

On the other hand, perhaps you want to do something a little more specific.  Then you just type 'hit elf (with a sharp elbow jab to the gut)'.  This would return either "With a sharp elbow jab, you miss the ugly elf" or "With a sharp elbow jab, you hit the ugly elf".  You would need to be careful with your syntax, but I think it could let you customize a little bit more.  This would let you set up your attack a little better.

emote:
>Spilling drinks to the floor, the ugly mercenary jumps up on top of the hardwood table.
hit:
>Leaping from the table head first, the ugly mercenary hits the ugly elf.
emote:
>The ugly mercenary colides into the ugly elf, sending the two spiriling to the ground.

OR

emote
>Spilling drinks to the floor, the ugly mercenary jumps up on top of the hardwood table.
hit:
>Leaping from the table head first, the ugly mercenary misses the ugly elf.
emote:
>Without any style or grace, the ugly mercenary sails through the air over the ugly elf and crashes with a violent thud into Lord Inbreeds table, sending drinks flying.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

My experience with the new brawl code is limited, but I would also prefer if the 'canned' emotes were removed in favor of more generic echos. This allows for more flexibility on the part of the player.
Currently, if a player wanted to brawl, but didn't want to contradict the canned brawl emotes, it'd be impossible for him to add in any more emotes that make sense. What do you expect him to type in?
'emote attacks! Blah!'
'emote attempts to dodge your next move, whatever it may be'
'emote simultaneously throws a knee, an elbow, and a mug at you, hoping at least one of them hits.'
'emote throws you across the room, maybe'
'emote throws a punch at your gut, unless he doesn't'
Yuck. No thanks. I can live with the current kick code, but I'd prefer if something like a brawl, which offers a lot of room for player creativity and improv, be a little more user-friendly.

[Anonymous]

Just don't use the brawl code then if you want to be in control of all the emotes.   The best fights I have seen were done without any code between two receptive and responsible players.

[jmordetsky]

Just don't use the brawl code then if you want to be in control of all the emotes.   The best fights I have seen were done without any code between two receptive and responsible players.

Yea, yea, and MUSHing rules.

[Forty Winks]

Just don't use the brawl code then if you want to be in control of all the emotes.   The best fights I have seen were done without any code between two receptive and responsible players.

The problem with that is that you would be able to escape the IC coded consequences for such actions. You could go to the Traders Inn and emote a brawl, but unless there's a PC there to report this incident, you'll be able to escape any consequence with such actions.

And (so) the brawl code is there for a reason.

From what I see now, making the brawl code general in detail would be better than the canned emotes. Frees up more of the imagination.

And I could see the problems that might come with such an action, as brought up previously, but, I think the benefits outweight the potential abuse...or awkwardness.

[Maybe42or54]

After the fact emoting?

[bloodfromstone]

After the fact emoting won't fix a lot of the problems I see. Say my character has a lame leg and has adapted his fighting style to suit it... Then he leaps from a table, kicking off of the bar, and does a flaming dragon spiral crusher into the fat mercenary.

I have similar problems with the 'kick' emote, but it seems easier to work around. I've heard people complain about emoting one thing, then having their opponent react to the canned emote. I've experienced this myself, but to no fault of the people I'm playing with. They just assume that the elbow/punch/bite/eyebeam is part of general combat emotes and not associated with the kick directly. This isn't a problem for me, now, with a character who actually does kicks in combat occasionally, but it would upset me if it violated the rules/personality I'd set down for my character already. Maybe I'm a proud fist-fighter who claims to only need his hands and feet to down the strongest foes. Then I grab a chair and splinter it over someone's back? Sure, I can 'emote twirls through the air, between a number of thrown mugs, aiming a foot at %opponent chest' before hand, but that doesn't matter if everyone, or just some people, assume that I flying kicked the guy, then broke a chair over him when that's something my character specifically wouldn't do.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and I know my example is really specific, but it just seems jarring to the immersion for half the crowd to react to my character shoryukening a guy, and the other half to act like I just threw my car keys at him.

[Maybe42or54]

Canned emoted for the people that like it, and noncanned emotes for the people that don't. For instance:

hit bitch

You spin three times and land a jab to the Bitch's chin!

hit bitch (attempt to strike Mr. Bitch's chin with the back of your right elbow)

You attempt to strike Mr. Bitch's chin with the back of your right elbow, but he reverses it and flings you into a drunken Bynner and they hit you! Dumbass!

[bloodfromstone]

Optional emoting is good.