Off with their heads!

[Teleri]

I propose that all noble houses in both cities be closed to PCs, and that the current number of possible templars be expanded.  Furthermore, I think that the Lirathan sect should be opened up to players again, since the northern noble houses will be closed.  

Why, you may ask?

Templars can accomplish all that the regular nobles can, and perhaps even more, while retention of templars is higher.  Additionally, templars fit better into the game world and are, typically, much more interesting roles.

Templars are nobles who have been empowered by their respective sorceror kings.  They have the resources of not only their post and semi-diety, but they also have the recognition of being a blood member of one of the prestigious noble families.  With this, they can accomplish plenty, and no extra, otherwise useless, nobles are around to spend money on clothes and other fancy crap and get in their way.  Templars can hire aides, soldiers, spies, and everything else that the non-templar nobles can.  By their very title, templars are higher than nobles.  They are more likely to spend their resources on projects, rather than crap for their characters.  Also, they have actual duties and tasks assigned to them, and are less likely to be constant tavern sitters.

I've played nobles before, and they are rather boring.  Without set tasks to do in the meantime between their various projects, life becomes very dull.  Templars have the city to patrol and the peace to keep.  It is an endless task, but one that they can divert their attentions from briefly to deal with their own business at their leizure.  Players will very likely be inclined to play a templar longer with their set tasks, than they would a noble where it is not clear what to do next.

Nobles, in my opinion, don't fit in very well with the atmosphere of the game.  A perfect-featured, silk-clad, lounging noble who chats all day and all night is useless to the players outside of their little circle.  It is too common a sight, and it should not be.  A templar, with their intimidating title and power, is a much more forceful presence which fits in better with the brutality of the game world.  Nobles might be intimidating in their own way, but in no manner that is so obvious as a templar.

So, what do you think?

[Armaddict]

So, what do you think?

Die in a fire.

[bloodfromstone]

Our enemy is the status quo. :|

[Cuusardo]

Closing down noble houses will eliminate far too much roleplay.

[Mulatto_Prophet]

I think the nobles serve a purpose to highlight the difference between the social castes. I, in my brief time here, have witnessed the actions of several PC's nobles, and have always left such encounters with feelings of envy and self-loathing.

Here I am, trying to scrap together two sids so I can feed my famished ass, and Lord Fancypants is over there lapping up the breast milk of five nubile virgins.

For that reason alone, just as a foil for my character, I believe that the noble classes should stay open...plus, who really wants -more- templars running around? I mean, Armageddon is supposed to be tough...but damn!

[HardCarbon]

I think the nobles serve a purpose to highlight the difference between the social castes. I, in my brief time here, have witnessed the actions of several PC's nobles, and have always left such encounters with feelings of envy and self-loathing.

Here I am, trying to scrap together two sids so I can feed my famished ass, and Lord Fancypants is over there lapping up the breast milk of five nubile virgins.

For that reason alone, just as a foil for my character, I believe that the noble classes should stay open...plus, who really wants -more- templars running around? I mean, Armageddon is supposed to be tough...but damn!

  Heh.. virgins.. unlikely...

[Cuusardo]

Here I am, trying to scrap together two sids so I can feed my famished ass, and Lord Fancypants is over there lapping up the breast milk of five nubile virgins.

That's impossible.  Virgins don't lactate.

[flurry]

Maybe they're Vivaduans.


On topic, I voted for the status quo.  The first post is spelled out well, but I am still not really convinced that closing noble clans would be helpful.  I haven't played in any yet, but I do they that the open noble houses have definitely been a plus for the game.

[Mulatto_Prophet]

Mulatto_prophet, you're fucking insane for the virgin/breast milk comment.

In my mind, if a man can lactate, then so can a virgin female.

But, in my mind, the theme to "Sanford and Son" is on constant loop, so yeah, you're all correct.

[Teleri]

Closing down the noble houses will NOT eliminate roleplay, except for the two or three nobles there are per clan.  Everybody who would want to work for a noble house can work for the individual templar.  The templar can have an aide, hire guards for themselves or the city, and maintain any number of professionals...as long as he or she has the money to do so.  

Templars are capable of scheming just as much, if not more, as regular nobles.  They just have more definite duties to occupy their time between scheming, thus keeping their players interested and busy.  

Eventually, templars will have so many people working for them that it will be like a clan in and of itself.  People working for templar A will be a cadre, and people working for templar B will be a cadre.  It's not coded, and it's not as restrictive, but it's like a noble house employee clan.  I would imagine that every templar would want to cultivate their own cult of personality, so that they have more pull in the city.

I fail to see how eliminating the noble houses and putting templars in their place will detract from roleplaying.

[Bogre]

It will make it so much more stale.

We'll have 10 groups of templars' servants, that'be fun, but it would get old.

Now we have a bunch of different groups that have different goals, they all work in different ways. Instead of 10 going to get the same goal before the others.

[RunningMountain]

You know it all depends on the player of the noble. I have seen some really pointless nobles, who fall into the famous Lord Arat category, and few times you get that rare Warlord of Tor that inspires players to join the clan and starts plots.  Unfortunately it's a coin toss and up to the staff to pick who plays the nobles.

[Cuusardo]

I fail to see how eliminating the noble houses and putting templars in their place will detract from roleplaying.

It gets rid of all of the roleplay that goes into rivalry between noble houses.  Conflicts between employees and/or nobles, espionage, constantly trying to outdo one another would all be gone.

Every event that the noble houses sponsor in the cities would be pretty much eliminated, because the IMMs don't have the time that the players do to run these RPTs.

A lot of people would be too intimidated by templars to even THINK of asking one for a job.

[Marauder Moe]

I have seen FAR too many plots run by or involving noble houses that simply could NOT be done by templars.  Maybe in Tuluk the nobles are pointless (I've never played Tuluk), but in Allanak they are vital.

[Yokunama]

I fail to see how eliminating the noble houses and putting templars in their place will detract from roleplaying.

It gets rid of trade from merchants. To my knowledge, some noble houses will pay a load of sids for a few hard to find items.

[EvilRoeSlade]

People working for templar A will be a cadre, and people working for templar B will be a cadre.

That's exactly what I try to do when I play a noble.

At any rate, though you claim to have played a noble, you've most likely done so without knowledge of many of the finer points of politics and the way the city you've played in works.  Doubtless that's why you failed to enjoy your role.

Because if you had known what you were doing, you'd have known that it's impossible to play a PC templar if there are no PC nobles.

[amoeba]

I voted for the status quo because I think that every segment of Zalanthian society should be able to be represented in some form by PC's.  Some people enjoy playing nobles. It's not my cup of tea at the moment, although in the far future that may change.    Stating that it is only possible to play commoners or templars is IMO a step backwards.  I've seen a number of these types of threads lately, shut down the nobel houses, shut down some merchant houses, destroy Tuluk, etc.  It seems that some of this smacks of sour grapes.  I don't like xyz, so close it.  This may or may not be true, but limiting choices for people hardly seems to be a forward thinking idea.  

I think some of the problems at hand is the impression that the playerbase is spread thin sometimes, I'm sure there is some truth to that, but stripping away options from people does not encourage more players to try us out. In fact I would think it would be viewed in rather a negative light as it probably should.  In fact I will go as far as stating that "status quo" is misleading, rather I am for player choices.  One of those choices being left free to possibly try out a noble if so inclinded.

[Elgiva]

I've played nobles before, and they are rather boring.

The fact this roles are boring for you doesn't mean it's boring for everyone.

[Incognito]

When I started playing Arm, Tuluk was in ruins and almost all of the playerbase was stationed in Nak. Good times! Times of honor, espionage, vile treachery and what have you - RP at its best.

Then Tuluk was rebuilt and houses reappeared there. Players shifted from Nak to Tuluk (and back and forth), thereby reducing the player concentration in any one particular area, and more importantly - in the individual clans.

More than anything else, it is this reduced concentration of players in each clan - which has led to a dilution of the previous glory of the noble houses.

It is probably the same reason why (I'm guestimating here) Gith, Halfling and Mantis were closed down for play.

An inaccurate view could/would be something like:
35 % - Independant
5 %  - Northern Noble Houses
10 % - Southern Noble Houses
15 % - Great Merchant Houses
5 %  - Desert Elves
5 %  - City Elves
5 %  - Templarate and Militia
20 % - Other clans

Its a simple equation of available number of players v/s available variety of clans (or guilds).

Purely from an OOC standpoint, I'd like to see some more clans closed down, to see more players in the remaining clans.

But ICLY, closing down clans just cuts off the ambience of Arm. (A couple of active Fale PCs can make a world of a difference to Allanaki atmosphere :) - to give an example.

So, whats the answer you might ask?

My answer - do nothing. Maintain status quo.

[Yokunama]

I've played nobles before, and they are rather boring.  Without set tasks to do in the meantime between their various projects, life becomes very dull.  Templars have the city to patrol and the peace to keep.  It is an endless task, but one that they can divert their attentions from briefly to deal with their own business at their leizure.  Players will very likely be inclined to play a templar longer with their set tasks, than they would a noble where it is not clear what to do next.

I'm guessing you make one boring noble.

Go to the taverns and talk to people, check up on your employers, talk to your guards about how useless they are, and so on. Just because you do not have a set tasks doesn't mean you can not have fun doing other things. You have to look outside the box for other sources of entertainment.

[SpyGuy]

I strongly believe nobles are a vital part of the game, some people love all the mud sex and politics.  And it does trickle down to the rest of the player base in more ways than a templar could.  But I would like to see Tuluk reorganized a bit, with possible more templars and the elimination of the noble houses as has already been discussed in another thread.

It may not condense the player base as I'd like it to, or it might.  There does seem to be some dissatisfaction with the Tuluki nobility, I haven't played in Tuluk in ages so really can't say how they perform.  But haveing 3 or 4 active noble houses in Allanak (when I played a noble there were only 2, yes one house was almost completely dead on the nobility level) would offer many chances for scheming and politics.

Old argument that's been done before.  I'm sure staff is considering it.

[Cuusardo]

I think the dissatisfaction with the northern nobility stems from the lack of effort on the part of the players of the nobility.  In the entire time I spent playing in Tuluk, I think I came across a total of three nobles who created copious amounts roleplay for others, and were always a LOT of fun to roleplay with.

Being a good leader automatically creates roleplay, and you can't just rely on the IMMs or anyone else to give you ways to create roleplay.  I've seen some who have totally slacked off and did nothing but "Look at me!  I'm a noble and I'm better than you so kiss my ass".  I've seen some who have only did the bare minimum.  The three I mentioned previously always seemed to go above and beyond anything that may have been given to them by the IMMs to come up with things on their own, and really made a difference.

Yes, being a noble is about being better than the common folk.  However, HOW the nobility shows this can make or break the roleplay experience for everyone involved with them.

[Gaare]

/detrailment/

IMO noble roles are more important then templars for the game. Templars usally have personal power (surely a great amount), on the other hand nobles represent a whole house in some sense. Also if you consider templars also maintain the law in cities, nobles have much more time, coin and reponsibility to create rp opportunities. Shortly, templars have IG duties to fulfill. From a noble nothing is directly expected, but raising her and her family's name.

[Maybe42or54]

Being a good leader automatically creates roleplay....

Being a Good leader OOCly creates Roleplay.

Being a good leader IG creates roleplay.

Being a horrible leader IG brings roleplay.

Nobles are only good when they spend that 2 odd large they get every two weeks OOCly. Pay off some people to hassle that recruit you have been mildly annoyed with. Do -something,- don't just sit around in a tavern idling waiting for Roleplay to come to you. Go out and stake Roleplay to the wall, mug it, bust its skull and leave it wanting more.

[Dark Lightning]

I didn't care much for nobles up until now, but now I know how they work and.. BURN IN DROV, the houses close and I'm packing my bags.

[I]

I voted keep it the same. If anyone actually wants to close down a house, then make the effort IG!

[Anonymous]

I voted keep it the same. If anyone actually wants to close down a house, then make the effort IG!

While I'm at it I'll kill Tek and steal Muk's pants.

Look, I appreciate the sentiment, no matter how glib, but the reality is that for a PC to 'take down' a house would involve massive amounts of time and coordination with the staff.  It isn't something that would be done in a year or two of playtime.  A house that has been around for as long as the houses in Zalanthas doesn't just get put under by some PCs with good heads on their shoulders.  Noble houses have more resources and manpower than a single PC could ever hope to overcome.  Even working from the inside as a member of one noble house taking down an entire noble house would involve a coordination of assassinations and Senatorial floor wrangling the likes of which have not been yet seen in the game.

Moreover for me personally this isn't about not wanting specific noble houses to exist, it's just not feeling sure that having those noble houses open for play has benefitted the player community.  It's a clear-cut OOC issue which is why IC actions have no bearing on the discussion.  For me at least.