Inventions

[Alnir]

What are the rules on them? I'm a bit curious as to what the limitations of Zalanthas are, in terms of inventing things. I'm sure there are smart people in the world, and some of them must have ideas. Like, Could there ever be something (I know it sounds a bit dumb) Like Windfoils? I forget what they're called..But they're like, Large..Large windmills that trap moisture in the air for use. I think they were in the game Emperor: Battle for Dune.

Edit: I'd also like to add that I do know there is a lack of materials to build them..but..hey, Improvise?

[Marauder Moe]

The main problem is, for commoner inventors at least, that without writing and without education there really isn't any such thing as science.  So, for the most part, there is no previous knowledge base for your inventor to draw upon.  He largely has no idea how things in the world (physics, nature, etc) work.  The lack of metal also seriously hinders technology.  For these reasons, I don't see the Zalanthan people as ever being especially inventive.

[Gaare]

Invention does not only mean tools and instruments which will make people's life easier. A new method of crafting an equipment or a different longsword type is an invention. Drawing is still legal unlike reading and writing, so that could be used. Also, in a world of read and write is illegal, IMO Zalanthians have better memories of remembering things then we have.


On the other hand, while RPing an inventor I think this short quote should be considered.

From http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13367

Too many people slip into the whole Englightenment/End-of-the-middle-ages mentality of fancy-dress, research and invention, glory and honor, romance, blah blah blah.

[Maybe42or54]

Would your PC actually have the time to sit around until they thought of this great new idea, and then spend the fifty odd years testing it to make it work?

Inventions aren't homeruns right out of the box. They start with you getting hit in the side of your chest with a ball travelling 90 odd miles fast, then it moves to you bunting the ball, then it might get you to first base, then it might get you to second base. And then you might get out when you find out it doesn't work when doing this, so you have to start over.

[Bardex]

Would your PC actually have the time to sit around until they thought of this great new idea, and then spend the fifty odd years testing it to make it work?

Inventions aren't homeruns right out of the box. They start with you getting hit in the side of your chest with a ball travelling 90 odd miles fast, then it moves to you bunting the ball, then it might get you to first base, then it might get you to second base. And then you might get out when you find out it doesn't work when doing this, so you have to start over.

I present to you as exhibit A: The Pet Rock.

Invent away, have fun. Come up with things that make sense within the scope of the game, give it the appropriate amount of time for testing if testing is necessary (unlike the pet rock, for example). Remember just because you think it's a great idea, because you know it's great in real life, doesn't mean the uneducated primitive masses of Zalanthas will think it's a great idea. Sliced bread would get a few raised eyebrows, because we don't have plastic to wrap it in and so the slices would go stale in a few hours, or get moldy if you covered it in erdlu hide. First you have to invent plastic. Not easy in a world without any known source of crude oil.

But hey - if you invent the pet rock, I'll buy it, if for nothing other than the sheer novelty. Which is exactly how the guy who invented it made his fortune.

[Jherlen]

Zalanthan technology is actually remarkably advanced in some areas when you consider the fact that they're working with basically cave man era resources. They have crossbows, wagons, and architecture despite have no metal at all to use for it. Any large pieces of bone they get have to be taken from really big mean animals who like to snack on people. I wouldn't underestimate Zalanthan ingenuity.

Most of the best 'inventor' minds are probably already employed at doing something by the major organisations in the known world. The major merchant Houses all have teams of master crafters devoted to coming up with new and better ways to make things to sell. Others might be trained and educated slaves owned by either templarate or the nobility.

I'd imagine your average, independent inventor exists, but he probably has some other occupation to feed himself, and he's probably hard pressed to get the resources to experiment with or invent anything while he struggles to stay alive.

[Maybe42or54]

The pet Rock.

Thanks to advertising, the man not living in a dangerous world where he can be openly killed in the road by someone stronger then him.

Thanks to a gift show in San Francisco.

Actually more a gift than a toy, as it would be killed if it was advertised as such.

Thanks to a Pet Rock Training manual.

And, even more, thanks to his knowledge of how to work people, his degrees in advertising, and his ability to get the Pet rock turned into a fad, that is how the pet rock came by. Or damn near close.


Will you find any of that in Armageddon? PRobably not, or one or two things.

[bloodfromstone]

I wouldn't be so fast to instantly shut down the idea of a PC inventing something. Inventors shouldn't be common, no, but as someone already mentioned, they have crossbows, wagons, etc... Someone had to invent these. So obviously some people out there do have the time, patience, and resources to invent. I don't think anyone is saying that they want their Byn warrior/thug to invent a plane or anything so ridiculous.

[Maybe42or54]

Go ahead and invent.

But don't expect the imms to code your idea/item/etc without you roleplaying the process. And spending the 'sid to test and all this stuff.
Unless it is for benign things that you have as a skill and are currently a master at.

[House Rising Sun]

Inventions so simple they'd make you laugh have come about within the game. In recent history, that's the apparent limitation: concepts that make the dumbest of us earthlings seem like geniuses.

We're talking about a collection of people even more ignorant than those of our own past civilizations, and even more quick to cry 'evil sorcery' at the unknown, because it's a real and dangerous threat. Can you imagine what folks would have thought when the telescope was first demonstrated, if magick existed and was almost universally feared and hated? I doubt Galileo would have told anybody, for fear of punishment.

On Zalanthas, those factors and many more exist to keep the seed of invention from being planted. There hasn't been much forward progress, if any, in at least two thousand years, so I don't think we can ever expect that forward progress to be a part of the game.

[Raesanos]

To be honest, inventions that would change the state of the game world will not be allowed.  Only very, very rarely have I seen staff step in to prevent someone from inventing something not appropriate for Zalanthas, but please keep in mind that it is possible. You certainly could event things, but there are limitations.  If you're uncertain if your idea is appropriate please email the mud account.

[RunningMountain]

We need gunpowder and six-shooters. And spurs. And big bush-hats. And some other cool stuff..

[HardCarbon]

To be honest, inventions that would change the state of the game world will not be allowed.  Only very, very rarely have I seen staff step in to prevent someone from inventing something not appropriate for Zalanthas, but please keep in mind that it is possible. You certainly could event things, but there are limitations.  If you're uncertain if your idea is appropriate please email the mud account.

Hmmm from my point of view

Crosscut saws for logging  (2 man)  we have saws.. we do logging

Scrimshaw

 Arrowspoons and other primitive medical tools

 Stills    Take wine  run through still get brandy and water

 Canning!!

 Atala (sp?) for helping in throwing spears..

 'solar'  stoves for cooking

 REAL cooking tools

 Carding and spinning

 Pullies (ok unbalancing)
 
 the Wheelbarrow (see above)


 Err that's probably more then enough

[RunningMountain]

Oh, oh, those tiny mints you get on your pillow!

[HardCarbon]

Oh, oh, those tiny mints you get on your pillow!

They got those

[Cuusardo]

Knives, frying pans, and seasoning aren't real cooking tools?

[Mook]

Imho, invention just isn't encouraged by investors or the state, like it is IRL - because in ARM, those investors/states would rather put their money into Highlord/Sun King-derived, or covert magicks.  

When it makes sense though, invention does happen - there are relatively complicated mechanisms/industries in both cities (furnaces for ceramics and glass blowing, mills for grain which most likely use some system of gears, etc) as well as other mechanical applications in other locations.  

A select few must know how to create flash powder, or it wouldn't exist... anyone else see that myth busters episode where they made a cannon out of wood?   :twisted:  (ok, so it had steel bracers.. but still.. heavy stone bracers?  Too close to magick to be trusted I suppose, blah.)

[HardCarbon]

Knives, frying pans, and seasoning aren't real cooking tools?

Nope.. they're RP props at the moment  (well I'm not sure about the seasoning)


Example


222 Hp:398/398>assess knife
A small flint woodworking knife can be hooked onto a belt.
A small flint woodworking knife appears to be used for woodcarving.


222 Hp:398/398>assess pan
A bone and shell frying pan appears to be an ordinary household implement.


If it were a cooking tool it should say something like
A bone and shell frying pan appears to be used for cooking.


Ditto for hoes, shovels, pickaxes etc for foraging stuff.

[Whira's Luck]

This is a slight derail for those who had tool questions, though since it came up. I'm not sure if people were being serious, but it's a good resource for people who might have real questions about how tools work in the game.

Seasonings codedly work (though AFAIK they are used after the fact), so they're not just for show.

The command to use them is (if I remember correctly) use <seasoning> <food>. It's used after-the-fact of crafting, though if you want to include it in your rp of cooking, have a ball!

If you want to see the effect a particular seasoning has on your food, simply use the command taste <food>.

There are 3 different ways 'tool' objects can be used in crafting:

1) An rp prop that gives no coded benefit. This is anything including a tool that gives a coded benefit that isn't specifically held. It could be a number of tools (like chisels, files, sandpaper, hammers, sex wax, etc) that you are using to craft, say to sculpt a marble statue. Obviously you can only hold two things at a time, but it's possible to simply use the others as rp props while emoting out the crafting process.

2) An rp prop that gives a coded benefit. There are some objects that give a coded benefit to the skill they are used in conjunction with (HardCarbon pointed out how to tell, however there's no way of knowing how much of a benefit they give, so I wouldn't rely heavily on choosing tools simply because they give a coded benefit, see below for another reason why doing so may be unwise). These must be eone'ed or etwo'ed to actually give their benefit.

3) A component within the recipe itself. You must have the tool in your inventory to be able to craft the object altogether and specify it in the recipe. The only way to determine if a recipe requires a specific tool is either by trial and error (craft plank mallet hinge) or using the analyze skill (analyze box >You determine that a plank, a small marble mallet, and a bone hinge were used to make a hinged box.) These recipe-required tools may or may not have a coded benefit if used as normal tools.

[Whira's Luck]

To actually address the question of inventions:

Inventions exist, but they're more extrapolative of what's in the game... cooking exists, so it's possible to 'invent' a new recipe. Or find a herb that imparts a new flavor so you 'invent' a new seasoning. Or you might find a way to reduce the size of a chisel so you 'invent' a line of small jewelry chisels to shape bone and stone.

HRS pretty much hit the nail on the head for why invention isn't common. It seems odd to imagine, but Zalanthans are pretty superstitious when it comes to things that just 'seem' odd. Because they have magick, it's easier to attribute a certain thing to magick than to science. There is very, very little formal education; those who have both education and the coin and time to spend pondering ideas that turn into inventions are located in the very upper echelons of society. Why should they care about devoting their lives to make life easier for a bunch of poor, dirty commoners?

Magick also takes the place of science by offering an exploitable source of low-cost power. Why build a catapult when you could just force a magicker to summon an earthquake on demand? The damage is broader, there is either no, or little cost in supplies/labor, and it's certainly a hell of a lot quicker to get similar damage. It's also cheaper in another way: if the magicker dies, it's a good thing (one less magicker in the world) and cheaper... those thousands of sid worth of wood you spent trying to build the thing aren't smashed to pieces.

Other limiting factors include the scarcity of resources possibly available (wood is very scarce in the south and even in the north you don't have many huge trees that can afford large pieces of wood that would be cheap to experiment with), a very real scarcity of metal (think about all the inventions that require a flexible, relatively light-weight, malleable substance that can both be heated to a high temperature but return to close to its original aspect without becoming brittle; wood, bone, and stone can't just replace metal in everything) and a lack of formal education which stymies most sophisticated engineering applications.