Magicker Subguilds?

[Cale_Knight]

I was thinking earlier today (on the toilet, where I do all my best thinking) that it seems unrealistic for all magickers in Armageddon to essentially be mages. That is, if you're a magicker, that's what you do in life.

So what about being able to take any of the magicker classes as a subguild instead of a guild?

Now, I put this idea forward as someone who knows zero about the magic system, so I might not be taking into account an otherwise well-known fact that could make this a bad idea.

Magicker subguilds would be extremely limited, maybe only given a few non-combat spells so that we can avoid the 50-day warrior who shoots fireballs. But at the same time, why couldn't a magicker spend the majority of his time focusing on a sword and only giving magic enough time to avoid being a danger to himself and others?

Subguild magickers would still have to be gemmed in Allanak, they'd still be just as feared and loathed as guilded magickers. They'd still take karma to play. But it would open up a whole new facet to their RP and place in society, I think.

[Larrath]

To tell the truth, this IS realistic.
If we look at what magickers really are, after all, they're simply people who, at some point in their lives, discover their abilities.  It is perfectly possible for a grizzled 30 year old Bynner to wake up one day and discover that he's a Vivaduan.
The sorcerers are those who study magick.  Elementalist magick is innate, and this is no secret.  Many elementalists wish they never were magickers in the firstplace.

Because of this, I do believe magickers should be able to possess fighting (or other, such as merchantlike crafting) abilities, but this is tricky to balance.

[Ghost]

Yep.. Yep yep yep.

Maybe karma required?

But sure.

[Cenghiz]

Magickers are already badass... A single magicker has power to destroy a group of Byn with ease if prepared. Adding him martial arts too? Uh..
Yey.. This _is_ realistic but.. It would be impossible to balance that.. maybe a new karma class is added - karma 9 - to make this possible.
But again, karma 9 means there's going to be at most one or two .. err.. battlemage or magicker merchant or whatever at a time. Even though I believe I'll earn the right to play them in less than a year :twisted: it'd be still rude to ask something affecting a very tiny minority from the staff.
Let them make usable ropes and hemote and threaten and force-feeding instead.

[jstorrie]

Assumedly, since sorcery is something studied, a PC of some other guild could theoretically pick it up. That being said, they would have to find some way of being taught, and even then they wouldn't have a background's worth of practice with it.

The implication with elementalists and mindbenders is that since their power is innate, and since their powers are such a big deal, they have no time to focus on other 'guild skills'. An elementalist or mindbender whose powers flared up late in life would be so exceedingly rare that I think it ought to be handle on a case-by-case basis.

[Ghost]

No.. Subguild meaning.. Well..

Maybe you just have a ranger with a single vivaduan spell, which can't go higher than wek?

Or you play a merchant who has a single nilazi(!!!!!) spell ?

The balance issue can be handled through capping the spells too low and not giving more than one or two spells I think.

EDIT:

A single magicker has power to destroy a group of Byn with ease if prepared. Adding him martial arts too? Uh..

True.  But then if the skill levels are low, magickers do not possess that much power.  A sorcerer in his newbie days, can be killed by a newbie warrior.  So capping the spells low would handle it.

[Cenghiz]

But something funny may be added...
Let's say imms are watching a ranger d-elf for long. He seems always sitting in the scrub lands thinking about the meaning of life, the grass, the tembo he hunted, the tiny bugs eating the remaining corpse and little lizard eating the bugs... whatever..
He lives his life for long, trying to gain a higher philosophy than a normal hunter. He never gives up his role of the thinker.
One day he wonders if he branched 'bla' and types skills. Thinking that much about the energy transformations in life, he now has the beginning elkrosian spell 'xxx', with its whole cap and even its branches. He's becoming a preserver.
The imms keep on watching the player. If he starts studying the spell, news are added in time, also some higher end skills of the ranger start to disappear. If he does not train the new energy he finds, he becomes only a ranger with a simple extra ability.
It would be really really funny for the player.

[Selie]

For what it's worth, I think the idea of actually roleplaying the transformation into an elementalist SOUNDS very cool, and I like the thought of abilities as fluid - you go too much one way, doors that were open are now closed, etc. It would be a lot of fun, just thinking about it. I'm not sure I ever plan to try an elementalist, but that's just one of the coolest things I can think of - you do something enough, eventually it has an influence on who and what you are. However, I think it would also require a whole lot of work on the imms' part, and people are always opposed to something that could be interpreted as making more people more powerful. Gemmers already seemed pretty common last time I spent a while looking around Allanak (it was hard for me, as a newbie, to play them as rare when I met quite a few just sitting around - I'll try harder in future, though).

I think this could be abused, yeah, but a lot of things in the game could be abused. I thought the imms kept their eyes open for people "twinking" and focusing more on becoming all-powerful than actually roleplaying? So would this really be that much worse than simply having ultra-powerful elementalists in the first place? I try to trust in my fellow players that they're all trying their best to roleplay, but then again, my experience is very limited...

[Delirium]

I'd rather see combat subguilds for magickers than magickal subguilds for combatants.

[Selie]

Or there's a nice and straightforward idea right there.

[moab]

*sniff* *sniff*
Smells like advocating the removal of classes in favor of a skill based system.

[HardCarbon]

*sniff* *sniff*
Smells like advocating the removal of classes in favor of a skill based system.

I think a  one spell  'perk' for someone with karma wouldn't do THAT much damage..  if someone LIKES playing  half-elven rangers.. or dwarven warriors..  and has say 6 or so Karma  why not?  Actually there are a bunch of things I think Karma ought to be able to buy


Examples:
 1-3 Karma  (was a Byn Mercenary for a year)
 2-5 Karma   Won freedom from the gladiators in 'Nak
 1 Karma  former 'whatever'worker for a noble house...(stone wood etc)


Not that I expect to be good enough to ever earn Karma...but I'd love to see special sub guilds and 'perks' for those who do...

[Larrath]

Karma isn't there to let people do shopping.

The reason I'm for this is the completely realistic but common knowledge that if PC X can cast spells, they absolutely suck at combat.  You can make the biggest, buffest muscle-corded Elkran that ever lived in Allanak; if some scrawny half-elf sees you with a gem, they're going to try and mug you for your 'sids or lay ambush or whatever.
I remember, back in my newbie days, being on a four-man (or maybe five) mission to hunt down a Krathi half-giant.  Four men.  Half-giant.  Fireballs.  Realistically, a group like that would consist of at least six people, or at least a mul or something.
Being a magicker does -not- require constant practice.  Getting stronger might, but if you became a magicker at age 18, or if you were an elf (whose development is considerably slower) that became a magicker at 26, do you honestly believe you couldn't learn how to use a sword by then?
Most fifteen year olds of any race, especially if they had a tough upbringing (the 'rinth comes to mind) will probably have some minimal knowledge of self defense.  Add a few years to that and they should, by all accounts, be able to take out a merchant that was always too busy wondering how much that training sword was worth to actually give it a few practice swings.

Additionally, I once saw a sorcerer PC who at least claimed to have been a warrior at one point.  I think that was completely backwards - it's the secretive, knowledge-hungry sorcerer that can't spare the time to use a sword, not the guy who has the power naturally whether he wants it or not.
So yes, I would like if we had one mundane guild and the karma ones still in place, but that looks like a distant dream at this point.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There are always special applications.  If you have a concept in mind for a Drovian that includes being able to wield axes with some degree of proficiency, it's not an impossible thing to ask for.

It's still possible to be effective in combat, even without having specific weapons skills on your skill list.  You may not be as effective as someone with specific weapons skills, but you can get by.

[Halaster]

For various reasons I can't go into (too IC-sensitive) this is not something we'd like to see, sorry.

If you really really want to know the answer, you'll have to play a number of mages and find out a lot more about magick IC'ly.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

While I can certainly see where everybody's coming from, there are many good reasons why this shouldn't be in place.
Cale_Knight wrote:

Subguild magickers would still have to be gemmed in Allanak

I don't think a gemmer could retain any knowledge they have of leather tanning, sword fighting or backstabbing if they spend most of their time in the Elementist Quarter (which a gemmer probably should). The Quarter is full of temples and magick shops, not sparring rings and crafting halls.
Also, if you're gemmed, you'd probably know that there's a fair chance a random Templar will come by and send you on one suicide mission or another; it's in your best interest to get your skills above a "subguild" level if you expect to live. So I don't think a subguild elementist could realistically survive in this particular role.
As others have mentioned, a mercenary-cum-elementist or a person who realized that they were an elementist later in their life can always be special apped. Personally, when I play a magicker, I consider their subguild to be what they did before they realized their talents. So instead of a Ranger/Vivaduan, why not play a Vivaduan/Hunter?
Also, I remember hearing somewhere in the boards that back in the day it was possible for a magicker-type to become proficient in melee, and the result was an incredibly over-powered character.
Those are just a few reasons off the top of my head. Yeah, it'd be nice to have a regular Joe type who can cast a few spells, but if you think about it, you can already have a character like that. Make a magicker and pick a subguild you can survive with, or even just make 'sid without using any skills at all. And there you have it.

[sacac]

If your d00d was a bynner before? Thug/sorcerer
That way you can live the thug life and by gifted.

[Revelations]

From my view of magick, it's either you have full control of your element or you don't. Kinda of like a full balloon. Once you pop it, all your abilities leak out and are available for you to use, and any 'air' that was around the balloon simply gets pushed aside. That's my explanation, at least.

[jstorrie]

So instead of a Ranger/Vivaduan, why not play a Vivaduan/Hunter?

Because the player in question might actually want their hunter/ranger-esque skills to work sometime, I'm guessing.

[Incognito]

I am against the idea of Magicker subguilds for regular guilds and also combat subguilds for Magicker guilds.

Magickers are powerful enough on their own - and do not require "extra toppings" to sweeten them up.

Without going into too many details - it would just throw things out of balance!

Imagine a Viv who can heal his wounds AND has some combat capabilities - or vice-versa - a buff warrior who can protect himself with spells.....nutz.....!

[/Slight derail]
Think of the mundane classes as a horse-carriage - and the magicker classes as an automobile. Sure, the driver will have to learn how to drive the automobile, but in the end, its gonna beat the horse-carriage any day.

Now, why would anyone wanna hitch a horse to their automobile?

Arm has an extremely fine balance of game or balance of guilds (whatever you wish to term it as). I am of the opinion that it should not be disturbed at all.

[/Heavier derail]
Lots of muds tweak their guilds without foresight, and end up ruining their games or resulting in mud inflation. If you dont know what I'm talkin about - try visiting some of the old-time HnS Dikus: Wanton skill/Guild mods have led to things like:

You vaporize the dark-shelled scrab with your ULTIMATE hit.
You vaporize the dark-shelled scrab with your ULTIMATE hit.
You vaporize the dark-shelled scrab with your ULTIMATE hit.
Your dragon-punch stuns the dark-shelled scrab.
The dark-shelled scrab screams in agony and dies. R.I.P. !!
<1200/1500HP 1130/1300Mana 3000/3500Mv>
You utter the words "wufarqz".
Your wounds are healed.
<1500/1500HP 1100/1300Mana 3000/3500Mv>
You group-say,"These are too easy, lets try Tek next, I want his robes of ultimate transparency."
<1500/1500HP 1100/1300Mana 3000/3500Mv>
Malifaxis group-says," Ok, but if the group doesnt mind, can we kill Muk first, I want his bracelet of ultimate power before I head to bed."
<1500/1500HP 1300/1300Mana 3500/3500Mv>
TheGreenMofo group-says,"Alright, gimme 2 ticks, I need to regen 4000 mana on my cleric before we head out there, someone cast satiate on me while I sleep, I didnt bring any water."

[HardCarbon]

For various reasons I can't go into (too IC-sensitive) this is not something we'd like to see, sorry.

If you really really want to know the answer, you'll have to play a number of mages and find out a lot more about magick IC'ly.

Well some day  


Still wandering lost in the dark .. I'll get there..

[Halaster]

Without going into too many details - it would just throw things out of balance!

To be honest, we don't really even try to keep the guilds perfectly balanced.  Compare a sorcerer versus a pick-pocket, for example.  We really just try to make them avenues for role-playing.  A pick-pocket has a certain collection of skills that will help a player role-play certain things.  He's not given his skillset to be balanced or fair compared to other guilds.

That's not to say we will ignore gross imbalances, just a reminder that perfect balance among the guilds isn't a goal.

Armageddon isn't about fairness.   :twisted: