On getting rid of Northern PC nobility

[Revelations]

The Noble role is a very good one when there is an active Political playerbase involved. Yes the individual can create their own plots and take the reins as a leader but that's ultimately making things interesting for other people. Which is of course part of the job, but you also have to balance out what makes it fun for YOU or like many nobles, you just burn out and stop logging in.

As has already been highlighted the world has one city too many. The addition of Tuluki Nobles after Tuluk was rebuilt was one of the worst the game has seen. Harsh language, but I use it only because of the gutt-wrenching effect the whole concept has on me.

What did creating a Noble line in Tuluk do for the world? Well, first and foremost it cut those playing in the already well-established Noble Houses in Allanak in half. Tearing away a good portion of the indepth political RP that Allanak was always known for.
Secondly it cut away those who wanted to play Noble guards and advisors and so forth in half.
And finally it makes Tuluk look as though they are trying to Mirror-Image Allanak, which should be the farthest thing in the world from what Tuluk should be doing.

In this player's humble opinion, Tuluk should represent a city inspired by a Barbarian... Like if Conan had a city, Muk Utep is a bad mutha but he's no Senator Palpatine...

Tektolnes and family? Definitely Palpatine material, Allanak even has a Senate and a fascinating political structure. There's no way Tuluk even touches Allanak's political might.

That's why I always wanted Tuluk to focus on its Templarate as the walking emblem of their Barbarian, Sorcerer-King... Who has the patience to humor Nobility in Tuluk? That whole class should be wiped away and a Caste system should be in place... Like Artists and Crafters and so forth and Merchants should be positions of honor having to do with what they actually contribute to the society. And the Templarate would be in charge of raising up those who contributed the most, giving them accolades. Slaving and defense of the city should all be done by the Templarate in Tuluk, either farming out the Slaving to small mercenary groups or leading groups of Militiia into the wastes.

So what happens if you have Utep disolve the Nobility in Tuluk? Well, you get those interested in playing a Noble in an intense political atmosphere finally coming back to Allanak and contributing in ways that makes everyone's enjoyment that much greater. You get House Oash with more than ONE noble at any given time... Letting them once again be the plotting and scheming House they should be. Tor has their gruff Warlords and Borsail their pansy Slaver-Lords. It's a win-win all around.

In fact it helps make the line seperating north and south that much brighter when you know you can escape the world of Political scheming and backstabbing up in Tuluk... Where they're concerned with things like Poetry and Bardic feats, Art and lumberjacking... Where a simple commoner can go be that simple commoner without being under the oppressive boot-heel of a Noble.

Then Tuluk's Templarate could have their Advisors and soldiers and so forth be the focal point... Staying true to the essence of their Barbarian Sorcerer-King... and Allanak can have their serpentine politics, staying true to the essence of their scheming Sorcerer-King.

If that happened, I'd jump in line to play a Noble because there'd be far more involved and far more Nobles to interact with...The last Noble I played hung around with the ONE representative from the other two Houses and let me tell you how boring those Kruth games were... The Oashi was always cheating, the Tor was always threatening the Oashi and the Borsail was always drunk.

Then maybe Allanak's political life would blossom in a direction that made PC SENATORs who could actually hold SENATE meetings and so forth. Bringing in runners to deliver the decree's to the taverns. The Tavern's would always be abuzz with what someone overheard and the scheming would be epic.

Anyway, that's my long-winded opinion.

I thought this was something that would warrant another thread.  :wink:

To put in my two sid, maybe House Fale could be brought back if this happened? It'll allow for alot more things the nobility can do besides the arena if that ever gets implemented (which would be more for commoners) and then there would be Fale parties (which would be geared toward the nobility).

The problem with what Vox has mentioned is that it would likely drastically change the amount of PCs in Tuluk, to better or worse.

[Larrath]

While I support the idea in theory, I can't see how it can be completely implemented without damaging Tuluk.

It might also create a balance problem, where Allanak is able to continually able to hire PCs to damage Tuluk while Tuluk lacks the nobles and their funds to do the same.

[sacac]

Just close them to Pcs?

[sacac]

Though you might want to keep them open to fully use the slavery Naiona wants.

[Larrath]

Just close them to Pcs?

That's what I was referring to.  Virtual nobles can't train l33t PC warriors and assassins in their units, they can't sponsor PC raiders, they can't capture PC slaves or feed the higher-end PC merchants, nor can they patron any bards or abuse mul mix.
Though I admit it's not impossible, this may be too risky to be worth trying.  Then again, that's just me, and I'm tired.

[Jherlen]

If Tuluk's noble clans were closed (which I wouldn't be opposed to - just how many bardic competitions can we have? Seriously...) what I'd like to see instead would be more Tuluki templars and a reopening of PCs in the Lirathan Order.

This way, Tuluk would still have the big important PC types running around, with all of the money/influence/etc to sink money into the commoners the way Allanak could, and with two open orders of templars but no nobles, you'd have an intriguing political scene that wouldn't be quite so much the parallel of Allanak that people seem to be upset over.

I think it could be a good idea in theory, but then there would probably would be problems with it in practice.

*plink plink*

[Anonymous]

That's what I was referring to.  Virtual nobles can't train l33t PC warriors and assassins in their units, they can't sponsor PC raiders, they can't capture PC slaves or feed the higher-end PC merchants, nor can they patron any bards or abuse mul mix.

Templars/Militia leaders should be doing that sort of thing anyways, if you ask me.

Secondly, nothing about this proposal needs to be permanent.  We've had trial periods for halflings, a trial shutdown of Tuluk noble houses for 6 months could really provide a good window of observation to see the impact on noble roleplay and how often noble players get burned out.

Having a dozen noble counterparts to roleplay with always made the role seem less like I was roleplaying middle management.

[Gaare]

Taking noble houses from Tuluk would harm northlands greatly. IMO noble houses are the key factor in Tuluk which creates real struggle. Without them.. Well, Tuluk would be like a very big tribe, and templars turn into war chiefs.

I do agree bardic competions, advisor&aide kind hiring, adding soldiers can be perfectly done by templars (after giving them some more responsibility and a deeper coin pouch), but without any struggle and chosens Tuluk would be very dull at all.

Also there would be another consequance of closing northern noble houses..Southern houses will lose some enemies..

"I hear at times people suggest closing clans in order to "condense" players into fewer clans, so each clan can theoretically "do" more. Although closing clans might lead to more people in a given clan (or it might lead to more independents, who don't jive with the limited clan options), I find that large clans rarely go head-to-head.  Instead, they find ways to be excellent to one another. Note..there is nothing wrong with that IC'ly, as it's perfectly natural to find ways to keep yourself and your clan "safe. But, clans without enemies have relatively little to do."

[Ghost]

Closing northern nobles to PC's would harm the playability of the templar role.  Would harm the rest of the playerbase in north as well, but Templars..
Oh poor templars.

[Anonymous]

Closing northern nobles to PC's would harm the playability of the templar role.  Would harm the rest of the playerbase in north as well, but Templars.. Oh poor templars.

Well, in theory Templars would interact with more Templars and there would be competition/interaction/cooperation/violence as a result.

My strong belief is that we can't be sure what the effect on Tuluk would be if the noble houses were shut down, temporarily or otherwise, but I am positive that restricting noble roles to one city or the other would have an extermely positive effect on noble roleplay across the board.

[Elgiva]

I am positive that restricting noble roles to one city or the other would have an extermely positive effect on noble roleplay across the board.

I have to disagree. It would mean losing some enemies... and that is always bad.

[HardCarbon]

Closing northern nobles to PC's would harm the playability of the templar role.  Would harm the rest of the playerbase in north as well, but Templars.. Oh poor templars.

Well, in theory Templars would interact with more Templars and there would be competition/interaction/cooperation/violence as a result.

My strong belief is that we can't be sure what the effect on Tuluk would be if the noble houses were shut down, temporarily or otherwise, but I am positive that restricting noble roles to one city or the other would have an extermely positive effect on noble roleplay across the board.

While there are a couple northern nobles who would be better as daisy pushers.. I thought the northern nobilty was fairly strong..  after all what does the SOUTHERN  nobility do to earn their way?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

As much as I'd love to see New Tuluk reduced to a smoldering crater (and nuking the noble houses would be a good start), I'd have to say it just wouldn't be fair to those with characters currently in New Tuluk, or to those players who prefer Tuluk to Allanak.
You'd be removing an entire element of Tuluk in order to make 'Nak better. Sure, there might be more inter-Templarate politics in New Tuluk as a result, but the main result would be that if people want to play a noble or play with nobles, they'd have to go to Allanak. And some of those bunny-hugging Tulukis might get their lacey thongs in a bunch over that.
Now, if it were just a six month trial period... sure, why not? Prove me wrong, folks.

[Cuusardo]

Ugh, not another one of these threads.  :evil:

[EvilRoeSlade]

There are some good points as to why this shouldn't happen.  If you've ever played a templar, you know that you can't function without the nobility (though the players of templars are often just as poorly off in the current situation due to incompetent players of nobles).

But I think that a major social rehaul that makes the nobility entirely unnecessary should be considered.

[SpyGuy]

This has been brought up before but the fact that it resurfaces shows it does have some support, generally among those who favor southern RP though.

I thought I'd chime in briefly to say that removing the noble houses wouldn't destroy northern RP.  Though it will weaken merchants like the Kadians in the north who sell to the nobility it would also empower the Merchant House members to hire and patron the limited amount of bards and merchant houses in the North also have the ability to scheme amongst themselves and use Tuluk as a base for gathering necessary raw materials.  And they can still sell among themselves and to the templarate to have some Northern markets.

The Tuluki templarate is also unique in being seperated into two branches.  That's something incredibly unique that sets Tuluk apart but currently, to my knowledge, one of the branches is closed.  Rather than having one templarate and two noble houses, I think having two templarates again would be fascinating and would give the increased southern nobility and their templarate plenty of enemies and challenges.  A powerful Tuluki templarate could certainly scheme amongst themselves and with the merchant houses, as well as turn Tuluk's focus more on striking back at the south.  And it seems that alot of the people who dislike Tuluki nobles would also like to see more inter-city conflict.

As for current characters, well it'd be unfair to kick them out.  But you could certainly phase out new applications, and existing nobles would certainly have interaction with the templarate and merchant houses who won't be going anywhere.

Just a few points to consider.  It would be a huge shift to Tuluk, but not necessarily one for the bad.

[Revelations]

Going with the barbaric theme brought up, symbolically speaking, each Jihaen templar could act as smaller war chiefs, and their power largely dependant on the support of certain portions of the populace, like their small tribe. The Lirathan order would be more of the council of warchiefs, and work in the actions of the Jihaen templarate, kinda of like advisors to the Sun King Muk Utep. How conflict runs would be different templars working for the support of the populace with different schemes against other templars, the so-called warchiefs. All symbolically speaking, of course.

*shrug* That's my attempt at giving a viable view of how things would turn out.

[Krath]

Just a quick note, The Liranthan option was closed to PCs for a reason. However, unless a
rebellion happens, in which allanak takes over Tuluk, I do not see how closing the
Northern House Nobles could be warranted.

[da mitey warrior]

I'd be in favor of this.  The northern nobility hasn't been all that successful and there's an extreamly high turnover of nobles.  Much higher than templars or merchants.  

Expanding the templars is an awesome idea.  You could have up to 7-10 templars with the playerbase which they have now added plus the nobles.

[Cenghiz]

Opening Lirathans to PCs? Err.. I know very little about them but... *cough*.. Damnit.. Anything I said would be damn IC, but I'm sure having more than one lirathan PC in north would be hard for a few roles played around Tuluk.

[Jherlen]

Given that Tuluk is supposed to be a very gestapo, Big Brother, people go 'missing' every day type place, I think that a stronger templarate presence there could do nothing but good.

It SHOULD be hard to play certain roles in Tuluk, people attempting to play those roles would probably have a lot more fun if they actually did constantly need to hide, watch their back, fear for their life, etc etc etc.

No more Chosen would give a much more distinct contrast between Allanaki and Tuluki politics. I can't think through all the ways it might pan out, but the truth of the fact is that Allanak already gives players opportunity for noble house intrigue. Tuluk should offer something different rather than simply replicating that - and I mean more different than 'oh, we're more subtle and we don't sleep with commoners.'

Allanaki noble houses wouldn't lose enemies, they'd just find new ones. Meddling northern templars might find themselves targets if they interefered too much in southern affairs, and it could be argued that removing the Tuluki houses from play would actually encourage Allanaki intrigue by making the southern houses turn against each other via infighting, etc.

Merchant houses and other clans might find an upswing in Tuluk as well, with fewer people to compete with for employees. More templars would also of course mean a stronger Legion presence to facilitate them having underlings to command.

I've seen some very nice RPTs and plotlines put forward by the northern Houses, but nothing unique that couldn't be done in the south or by other groups. I think this would help to differentiate and diversify the north, and make it a more interesting place to play.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I support the idea of killing off the noble houses in Tuluk. As far as 'why would it happen?' we need look no further than the great Muk. Word is law, after all. Induct the Noble Families into the Templarete, and turn over operation of slaving enterprises and the other things these Houses control to  commoners, making them much like Local Business Only Merchant Houses.

If you do not want to play a commoner in Tuluk, play in the Templarete.

I like this idea a lot.

[Northlander]

Disband them, yeah. Don't just close them to PCs, that'd screw up PC influence and a believable world.
The idea of two seperate systems of nobles, conniving both within cities and between them, hasn't really lived up to expectations - it has messed up political intrigue as well as working-man's respite, taking away equal measures of both cities' charm.

Do what Venomz says: the templarate and independents should grow in northern houses' stead. I like playing in both cities but I'd like them much more if this was done. It's not all that daunting, is it?

[Anonymous]

Don't just close them to PCs, that'd screw up PC influence and a believable world.

Huh?  How would closing noble houses but leaving them as virtual, same as Jal, Sath, Reynolte, Fale, etc, screw up a 'believeable world'?  If anything closing them for PC play but leaving them as a virtual influence in the world is more believeable than 'and then one day Muk rounded up all the nobles and carted them off for no apparent reason'.

[Northlander]

Don't just close them to PCs, that'd screw up PC influence and a believable world.

Huh?  How would closing noble houses but leaving them as virtual, same as Jal, Sath, Reynolte, Fale, etc, screw up a 'believeable world'?  If anything closing them for PC play but leaving them as a virtual influence in the world is more believeable than 'and then one day Muk rounded up all the nobles and carted them off for no apparent reason'.

Pardon the confusion, I see well where you're coming from. Having actual PCs in the different levels of society is important to me, but it'd also be interesting to see just a focus on the little guys, and their rungs of society, with the rest of their city virtual and led by immortals. I think Rindan once put forth a great idea regarding this. Having them virtual in the north but actual in the south would be strange, but perhaps not bad. It would certainly be an easier thing to 'try', and anyhow quite required for any transition.

Removing the houses entirely would allow other structures more room on their rung at the top of the ladder, still giving room for PC-led roleplay between the city states but taking up fewer characters and making the cities have less in common with each other. There will be more players come winter though, and it'd be rash to change things now.

[Revelations]

Ah, if the nobility of Tuluk were to be -taken out-, then what happens to the noble quarters?

[Xygax]

Ah, if the nobility of Tuluk were to be -taken out-, then what happens to the noble quarters?

The Dragon would descend, landing directly atop the noble's quarter and absolutely obliterating it, leaving nothing but a (another) giant crater.

Or, you know, we'd just leave it there.  There are lots of places on the mud that are unused and inaccessible to players, but that doesn't mean they won't EVER be useful again or that things can't still happen there for players to become involved in, even if they aren't high-traffic areas.

-- X

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I know you didn't say this, X, and I'm implying in no way that you are even considering it, but...

...has it been a thought, in any manner whatsoever? Are you interested in possible changes to the societies, to emphasize differences more?

[Xygax]

I know you didn't say this, X, and I'm implying in no way that you are even considering it, but...

...has it been a thought, in any manner whatsoever? Are you interested in possible changes to the societies, to emphasize differences more?

Yes, it has been and is always an ongoing consideration that we want to differentiate the two societies significantly (and in many ways they are already significantly different; we'd just like those differences to be more visible to players -- and more playable and fun, as well).

-- X

[Armaddict]

Gad, I keep getting this thread and the other confused.  One of them talked about re-opening Fale, if we close the northern houses.

My opinion on it is don't do it unless you find people who -will- play it well.  When Fale was open...Fale nobles were seriously more like a joke than a noble.  They all wore ridiculous costumes or clothing, acted like morons, made stupid jokes (some of which blatantly mirrored sayings from real life), and basically acted the complete opposite of what a Fale should be.  (Once again, in my opinion.)

Fales are cultured, like art, like parties, etc...this doesn't mean they're fishing for laughter from the commoners and nobles, or that they're willing to make fools of themselves to entertain others.  If anything...I think Fales should be the ones making -other people- entertain constructively, rather than actually being the entertainers.

And having a 'Whatsit', while cute, seemed completely out of place in Allanak.  It's not -my- vision of Fale, it seemed terribly out of place and more there for OOC enjoyment than to add to the game.  If that was fixed, I'd say it would be awesome.

Anyway, this ended up derailing a little, but yeah...I agree, making a new social structure for Tuluk would be neato.

[Vox]

Regarding Tenneshi mirroring House Tor... Yeah I seem to recall back when the House first emerged there was some talk of them contributing significantly to the defense of Tuluk... But after reading the break down of Nobility on the General Information page... I stand corrected.

But after perusing the description of the duties of these 'Noble' Houses:
1) Tenneshi employs artisans and craftsmen, and controls water.
2) Winrothol provides trained warrior-slaves to the Legion

So Winrothol is a combination of Borsail and Tor... and Tenneshi, well they seem like the Custodians of the city. Just like Jal... who even created the sewer system beneath Allanak.

In short... Winrothol=Borsail/Tor
Tenneshi=Jal

Laeris put alot of work into the whole subject and for that he gets my respect, but I don't think the turkey is done... It needs to bake a bit more and needs to be basted lovingly.(don't we all  )

I don't think anyone is suggesting 'scrap it all', we're just suggesting a redistribution of responsibility for the purpose of a better RP experience all around.

[EDIT: LOL, there's so many threads of this subject open I replied in the wrong one, gonna move this to the other one.]

To contribute something productive to THIS thread, I hope the Dragon comes and rests the 'other' cheek on the Tuluki Nobility... Yay Crater!