The Way: Way too easy?

[Cindrak]

Here's a simple proposal: make the stun cost of waying proportional to the length of the message.

And here's why:

It seems to me that the Way is a little too "easy" to use; once you're good at it, it's like a cell phone that nobody can hear you talking on. Sure, your cell has limited battery life, but as long as you let it recharge every so often, you're fine. The fact that the Way is so easy to use gives an advantage to conspirators, which is, I think, a good thing, because conspiracy is fun. However, it is also a deterrent to uncovering conspiracies, or even just juicy secrets of your everyday variety. Ultimately, this takes a lot of the feeling of danger out of conspiracy, and therefore a lot of the fun. When you see two people in a tavern sitting across from each other at a table, carrying on a silent conversation for hours on end, does this make for an interesting scene?

Partly the responsibility is on us, as players, to try and make the game more fun and interesting by letting some of our characters' secrets spill out. But human nature being what it is, we love our characters and don't want bad things to happen to them unless we've planned it ourselves, which isn't necessarily in the best interests of the game itself. I think we'd all have a great deal more fun if we were forced to talk about most things in an environment where we might be discovered (by ordinary folk, not psionicists.) And if it's extra sekrit, we should have to go find a good hiding place to do our conspiring, at the risk of bringing along a hidden listener.

Chats of any real length should have to take place in person, due to the prohibitive toll Waying would exact. The Way should be primarily a scheduling apparatus: "I'll meet you at so and so in three hours." It should be a way to get in touch and schedule longer conversations. I realize that aide-type characters will probably find this unfavorable, due to the amount of mindtalking they do right now, but think how much more fun you will have, and how much more useful you will be as a set of ears for your employer, if everyone is talking more.

Right now the listen skill is overpowered, in my opinion, but it's counterbalanced by the fact that nobody says anything of any importance. There is the outer façade, in which everyone natters on about the weather and other inconsequential crap, and the inner world, in which plans are hatched and innermost feelings are shared via a high-security network. Bringing that inner world out into the open more, subjecting it to risk, and simultaneously putting some checks on the power of listen, would go a long way towards making the game a more realistic and exciting place.

-Cindrak

[Larrath]

As long as you're not suggesting to double the current stun loss for a very long message, I'm for this.  I would like the Way to still be useful to transfer secrets, but maybe not to have entire conversations over.

[Anonymous]

Having played a character stuck in two low population areas for over a real life year I really don't look forward to any change to the Way that would make what little socialization that character could get even less possible.

[ale six]

From my own experience, more secrets are revealed in words in extra sekrit places than over the Way anyway. Making the Way harder to use may or may not mean more conspiring is done 'catchably' (although who knows, the Way may not be 100% safe either), but I can see happening is people fainting far more often, which to me wouldn't be very fun at all.

New characters and those that don't use the Way as often already have troubles using it as is - I don't see much benefit in making it harder still to use.

[Anonymous]

Who says that transmitting secrets over the way is safe? It may be safer than chatting at a bar, but it's not 100% safe. It's about as safe as pulling someone into a secret room and whispering to them. There still may be people overhearing what you're speaking of, and there may be people listening to what you're waying.

[Cuusardo]

The Way is very difficult at first, but the more you use it, the easier it is on your mind and body.

[Revelations]

For playability reasons, I can see why the Way is as it is, and I'm perfectly fine with it in that regard. But in terms of the negative impact a long duration of the Way can cause, I agree that perhaps a lesser max for the Way would be better in that there is the same learning curve as a new player, but the max of the ability is less than it currently is, making a prolongued contact much harder to accomplish except by the exceptionally talented (psionisists). I think that is a better response to the problem than having stun taken away proportional to the amount of words you send, since images and feelings might be portrayed through the way as well (ICly speaking, this is what I believe. Maybe not codedly).

This is just a suggestion if any change is to be considered, but I'm one for keeping the Way as it is. (It was a good suggestion though.)

[Cenghiz]

Folks with high wisdom (magickers and merchants) nearly never lose stun points right now. If the way's toned down, they would still be able to perform whole conversations via the way. After long time, the dumbest of the dumbs, h-giants would be better than your ranger with a working mind in the Way because of their huge amount of stun. So; it's going to be a penalty rather for rangers/warriors etc.
I do love playing magickers so this won't be affecting my chars badly, also I'd be able to hear more which would be better but still.. Let it not be changed. It won't solve the problem. Only solution could be imm-animated psionics. I guess both city states have legal psionics working for the city. Let them work and spill out the secrets to the authorities.

[Anael]

Minor derail but there are two things...

Only solution could be imm-animated psionics. I guess both city states have legal psionics working for the city. Let them work and spill out the secrets to the authorities.

I don't know, but who says they don't do that  :wink: ?

Anyway, I'd love to see people emote to reflect the fact their stun's going down a bit more. I don't really like the idea of people sitting at the bar, chatting merrily with Bob, while plotting his death via the Way, juggling contacts with George, John and Amy, and still able to speak 'briskly', smile and appear they're really paying attention. I don't know, but it's hard enough for me to use AIM while talking to another person in the room at the same time.
Showing stun in some visible way would be one possible way to avoid this.
Giving the Way's failure message a room echo in case of some kind of a 'critical' failure might be nice too, but people will probably beat me for just proposing it.

I like the original poster's idea.

[HardCarbon]

What.... and you think they don't already have them?

Minor derail but there are two things...

Only solution could be imm-animated psionics. I guess both city states have legal psionics working for the city. Let them work and spill out the secrets to the authorities.

I don't know, but who says they don't do that  :wink: ?

Anyway, I'd love to see people emote to reflect the fact their stun's going down a bit more. I don't really like the idea of people sitting at the bar, chatting merrily with Bob, while plotting his death via the Way, juggling contacts with George, John and Amy, and still able to speak 'briskly', smile and appear they're really paying attention. I don't know, but it's hard enough for me to use AIM while talking to another person in the room at the same time.
Showing stun in some visible way would be one possible way to avoid this.
Giving the Way's failure message a room echo in case of some kind of a 'critical' failure might be nice too, but people will probably beat me for just proposing it.

I like the original poster's idea.

[sarahjc]

I actually do believe the cost of using the way should be higher. As it stands now, some people can use it fighting a mek, while standing on their head with one hand tied behind their back and maybe loose a couple of stun, but not faster than they regain it. There aren't a lot of these people, but they are out there.

However there are many, and I have done this with past PC's that can way people all day, sitting, standing, following someone else around and never break contact and never get tired.  

And that's not realistic.

Three things I would like to see with the way:

Set new PC's with a higher skill, they've had it most of their lives and have most likely used it. I have always thought that Psi should be based on your PC's age first and usage second.

Second make it much weaker when doing anything but sitting around. It's weak now. But, I don't think it's enough.

Also make it more taxing over long periods of time. The longer you hold a contact the more it takes away.

It is a slightly unfair skill to those who are just about maxed at it. And so often because of the listen skill, most people don't speak about anything remotely private in public, or even in private because of it. But the listen skill is perhaps a whole other thread.

[Bestatte]

The problem with changing the way, has to do with my personal experience with it. I don't know if this is common or not.

Sometimes, even if my psi skill is pretty good, I'll get these sudden waves, where I get extremely fast drains.

I might be typing out a single, simple 5-word sentence and lose 30, even 40 stun points in a row before I can even hit the enter key. And that's while I'm resting in a quiet place. That kind of stun loss can be a serious issue if you're standing up, maybe telling the templar across the room that the guy you're talking to is the sekrit defiler he's been looking for, or whatever.

If the stun drain was changed to make it more significant, then I would hope random sudden stun losses like that would be tweaked so they didn't occur so quickly at any given moment. Even at what you believe is your current max psi (which I don't think anyone can really know they have), those lightning-fast losses can make you pass out if you're not completely focused on your stun points at that moment.

I have no idea if it's random, or if it's some IC secret happening, or if it's some quirk in the code. But it does happen to me often enough that I would have to vote against any increased difficulty, without that issue being addressed at the same time.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

sarahjc wrote:

And that's not realistic.

Wait, sorry, realistic? Aren't we talking about psionic powers here? Who's to say what's realistic and what isn't? Are any of you real-life psionists? Could we get a Board-certified professional telepath to step in and tell us how its done?
"Realism" aside, you said yourself that the people who can mantain contact while fighting meks or while travelling through the desert are few and far between. So what's the big deal? So are the people that can kill with with a single backstab or craft a sword worth eight thousand obsidian. If some one has worked with the Way, if it's important part of their survival, and they've been using it for a number of years and gotten very good at it, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to do impressive things with it. If a soldier trains with his bow for several years, hoping to get to the point where he can kill a man with a single arrow, it is possible for him to reach this goal. And an assassin, if he approaches the task with the same amount of commitment, should be able to train himself to contact his clients for extended periods without passing out.
According to the psioncist help-file:

As species have evolved, humans found themselves at a disadvantage. No longer the strongest, fastest, or even smartest beings around, their survival was in jeopardy. For one reason or another, the human brain was able to unlock more psionic powers than any of the other beings. Only humans have been able to become true psionicists, and use psionic skills other than the basics.

And the psionics help-file wrote:

Non-psionic races are long since deceased on Zalanthas, not having been able to compete with those who possessed the ability.

For a human character in Zalanthas, the Way is a basic part of life, almost like another appendage. The Way is like an arm or a leg. Suggesting that stunting the Way might increase the chance for intrigue is like suggesting that we reduce every human character's stamina to 10 in order to localize the playerbase in the cities. It might help acheive this effect, but that doesn't mean we should do it.

[Anonymous]

Wait, sorry, realistic? Aren't we talking about psionic powers here? Who's to say what's realistic and what isn't? Are any of you real-life psionists? Could we get a Board-certified professional telepath to step in and tell us how its done?

Oh jeez.  Realism here is relative to the game world.  Psionicism clearly takes a toll on your stun.  It's easy to draw a parallel between the fluctuation of your stun and the fluctuation of your health when in combat.  Characters wounded in combat are expected to roleplay pain/recovery, etc.  It's not insane to suggest the same sort of roleplay be taken into acount during the use of the way including not overdoing it.

[sarahjc]

Well, actually I do have psionic powers, doesn't everyone?

:?

But as CRW stated, yes.. I did mean In game realistic. And I was not really speaking of the Uberway people, though was including them.

I was moreso speaking of those who sit across a table from eachother and speak for a full game day with mind talk as to keep the conversation private.

For that sort of thing, I'd like more physical drain. I mean, there is a drain message. It should be very taxing on the mind.

Also, ever try to watch Tv and read a book at the same time? Or talk on the phone and do kung fu at same time? Or talk on the phone and get shot in the arm at the same time?

Maybe not so easy.

[sacac]

Well, I personally have a problem.

I woke up with it.

Isn't the way supposed to be mysterious? Is it mysterious?
You contact someone, if you don't get the right person, you can contact 2.target.
You know it wont be overheard unless there is a psionicist.
You know how much you can take.
You know you can barrier yourself from the world.
You know the tell tell signs of someone catching your mind.

But should we?
I want to know I contacted, but not -who- I contacted. Takes some of the fun out. Like I suggested in the other way thread.

[joyofdiscord]

A whole slew of random ideas and comments:

I think "you contact someone" would be a very nice way of adding some uncertainty to the whole thing, although "contact name" and the new multiple keywords feature will make it tough to ever get the wrong person.  
...so...
Maybe throw in a chance of contacting someone else even if your keywords are correct.  This chance could decrease with skill, but you might still have some 10-20% chance of miscontacting even at your best (excluding mindbenders.)  

Likewise with noticing who you're contacting or who's waying you.  Maybe with skill you get up to about, at best 50% effectiveness at identifying the person you contact or the person sending you messages.  

Also, perhaps the stun loss could be a bit more constant across skill levels.  You might get better at contacting your target in the first place, but you still need to hurry up and finish your conversation within 3 or 4 messages or you could be in trouble.

Hmmm, perhaps, like the suggestions about listen, some of the words could get eaten up with the way.  At the beginning maybe some 40% of your words get deleted with "...", but getting better (depending on both sender and receiver's skill), only like 10-20%.  This alone would make actual speaking a preferred means of communication (as it should be, IMO), and along with some of the other ideas in this thread, could ensure that the Way gets used only when truly necessary.


The way obviously smoothes over a lot of semi-OOC matters, but as a 100% IC construct, it does introduce a lot of factors which I think are detrimental to the game.

[Marauder Moe]

I would just assume that the coded mechanics are OOC and if some non-Zalanthas asked how you go about finding people's minds the only answer one could give would be "You just do it.  Sometimes it work's, sometimes it doesn't.  I can't really explain."

Sort of like asking someone how to move your arm.  You can't really feel each individual muscle and how much it contracts during the movement, it's all manage unconciously.

[williamson]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

-Williamson

[joyofdiscord]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It seems to me that the Way is a little too "easy" to use; once you're good at it, it's like a cell phone that nobody can hear you talking on. . . Ultimately, this takes a lot of the feeling of danger out of conspiracy, and therefore a lot of the fun. . . you see two people in a tavern sitting across from each other at a table, carrying on a silent conversation for hours on end . . . nobody says anything of any importance. There is the outer façade, in which everyone natters on about the weather and other inconsequential crap, and the inner world, in which plans are hatched and innermost feelings are shared via a high-security network,

Sounds like some people (myself included) think it's a bit broken.

[Alexander]

Psionics are powerful and mysterious.

It is a part of everybody.   I think it is just fine... consider it another skill, those who are good at it are good at it.  Just like a uber fighter or a butch sorcerer.

I can assure you, use of the way is NOT 100% secure.  

There is plenty of danger with the use of the way: passing out, other brainworms sniffing you out.

The best influence of the other players is to lead by example, so if people in your playing area aren't talking but use of the way, then start to talk.

*tosses two sid into the bucket*

[Whira's Luck]

Also, if two people are obviously using the way at the same table as you, there could be a lot of reasons outside of anything important. Maybe they're lovers being affectionate over the way in a situation where it may not be appropriate to do so publically. Maybe they're making fun of you behind your back. Maybe they're just discussing the price of kanks and feel that to intrude upon your conversation might be rude. Lots of reasons there.

There's actually quite a bit of physical drain, even when it seems like you're very good with it. Not only does it drain you each time you 'contact' but also each time you send a way message and randomly while connected.

Like someone said before, someone who can maintained a prolonged contact while fighting something else is few and far between. I'd almost have to say that such a thing is probably even rarer than that and likely imaginary.

actually do believe the cost of using the way should be higher. As it stands now, some people can use it fighting a mek, while standing on their head with one hand tied behind their back and maybe loose a couple of stun, but not faster than they regain it. There aren't a lot of these people, but they are out there.

Can you point me to one of these characters? It's not that I don't want to believe you, but I can't take your word on it as evidence of these kinds of characters existing.

Anecdotal experience, so take it for what it's worth: In all the characters I've played, long and short-lived, combat and non-combat, I have never been able to do the above, even with characters that had appreciatively good stats. Some could maintain a -brief- contact while mounted and/or standing, but only if the message was one-line, and I was keeping a close eye on their stun. They could manage much more prolonged contact while seated, but without fail they would eventually drain most of their stun. (And I'm talking about characters with what appeared to be abnormally high stun via their natural stats.)

I also recall when the way was harder to use than it is currently. It was changed to make it a little easier but not by much, and I don't quite remember what was changed with it, I think the stun-loss when trying to contact to someone without success (if an immortal who was around and is familiar with this change could address this, that would be great).

Now, if the argument is to make stun-loss greater while active, i.e. walking/fighting, I wouldn't object to this, but I also don't see much of a problem the way it is now, since these mek-fighters with such incredible powers to be able to maintain appreciable contacts seem little more than myths and exagerrations.

[Maybe42or54]

I have actually had one of those people that could fight a mek and use the way. Not that he'd ever try it.

He did spar a great many time while talking and having way sex with someone.

[jstorrie]

way sex!

asdfhgasd

[joyofdiscord]

My last character could stay contacted pretty much indefinitely, standing or seated.  He had pretty decent wisdom, though.