weird question.. and yes, I'm an anonymous coward..

[Anonymous]

I've seen a lot of male characters walking around with no shirt, just a cloak, this seems to be fine... Thinking that there is no sexism in Zalanthas, how accepted would it be for a commomer woman to walk around half-naked like this? Or does equality only go so far?

[Dracul]

Just fine.

Somethign memorable with one char there was a tribal character who walked around like that...and some people tried commenting on it...I was one of those who tried to show by example that it was no big deal. I didn't like it when people reacted to it as something offensive.

No big deal....

[Delirium]

I've seen a lot of male characters walking around with no shirt, just a cloak, this seems to be fine... Thinking that there is no sexism in Zalanthas, how accepted would it be for a commomer woman to walk around half-naked like this? Or does equality only go so far?

Actually, I sniff a bit of possible code confusion here.  Cloaks, when worn, obscure objects worn on the torso (such as shirts), belt, and waist.  These characters may indeed be wearing shirts, you just can't see them code-wise.

Roleplay-wise: If I recall correctly, in Tuluk it is acceptable for a woman to show skin or wear more risque outfits, though going topless outside of a bar or strip show might get some remarks.  In Allanak, women do not show skin, but outfits are often form-fitting and leave little to the imagination, in contrast to Tuluk's generally looser clothing.

[Cenghiz]

[derailment]My char would be pleased.....[/derailment]
AFAIK (and I can be wrong) it's 'no no' to be half-naked in south, for both males and females. I remember folks of higher tier getting pissed seeing naked chests.
I know nothing about northern traditions or the traditions of Luir's, though.

[Dracul]

Oh really? Oops. I wasn't thinking there obviously. I'll concede to the last two posts.

[Vanth]

As far as I know, there is no differentiation within either the Allanaki or Tuluki cultures regarding gender and what's appropriate to wear.  In Allanak, it's considered risque (or tacky) for either men or women to show too much skin. In Tuluk, the clothing is both looser and more revealing, for both genders.

[Marauder Moe]

No different at all?  Somehow I doubt there are many men wearing skirts and dresses, though.

[Larrath]

Men and women have different garments, but it doesn't mean one sex can be more revealing than the other without getting odd looks.

If a man can walk around bare-chested (or wear a vest with nothing underneath) and not get any odd looks, there's no reason why a woman shouldn't be able to.
In Allanak, neither sex should be able to do that unless they were extremely poor.  Clothes in Allanak are long, tight and generally uncomfortable because they mimick the clothing worn by the nobility.  And the nobility basically just wears the most impossible clothes they can possibly find, using it to display their power.

In Tuluk, visible skin is more accepted, but that doesn't include the waist.  I doubt anyone would want to walk around in a loincloth and risk looking like a slave.

[John]

Actually, I believe I've had trouble with certain robes and shirt combinations, forcing me to decide between wearing a robe or a shirt (but not both). I mostly choose the robe and just refuse to take it off.

[Sholdyn]

I can't really see anyone getting too pissed off about someone walking around topless, but I can see some people getting a little too excited. Your character should keep that in mind too.

[Cuusardo]

Sexism is largely nonexistent on Zalanthas.

[RunningMountain]

Sexism should be existance though, and I always play my characters as looking at females "below" him, no matter how much people like to say but they are "equal" codewise blah blah, I disagree, no matter how much you say OOC concepts shouldn't be brought into an IC world with different politics, etc, it will be and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, such as woman taking the name of the man during marriage, and men simply being the more powerful gender, (physically and politcally).

[flurry]

Sexism should be existance though, and I always play my characters as looking at females "below" him, no matter how much people like to say but they are "equal" codewise blah blah, I disagree, no matter how much you say OOC concepts shouldn't be brought into an IC world with different politics, etc, it will be and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, such as woman taking the name of the man during marriage, and men simply being the more powerful gender, (physically and politcally).

The absence of sexism is part of the documentation, just as much as the fact that elves don't ride kanks.   You can disagree with that all you want, but it's like disagreeing that dwarves should be hairless.

That said, I don't think that necessarily means that Zalanthan fashion would be the same for men and women in all respects.  It's not really addressed officially, as far as I've seen.  Although the fashion doc refers to "women's dresses" and some item descriptions seem to have a particular gender in mind.

[Larrath]

Sexism does NOT exist in Zalanthas, RunningMountain.  This has nothing to do with the coded aspect.  Someone viewing females (or males) as beneath/above him is a pretty damned rare exception to the rule.
Also, Zalanthan men aren't stronger than Zalanthan women, not in theory (purely IC) and not in practice (where OOC mechanics go).

Making every single character of yours look at women as inferior is simply bad roleplay, in my eyes... Unless every single character of yours is a little crazy?
There is nothing in Zalanthas that says you should help a woman or treat her better than a man, except maybe if she's pregnant and even then, Zalanthans aren't famous for their generous spirit.

Sexism doesn't exist.  Should it?  Maybe, but it doesn't, so please don't play as though it did, or at least don't play (assuming that you do) as though these concepts are anything other than really really strange.

[RunningMountain]

I didn't tell you how to play, so don't tell me how to play, and don't judge my roleplay.

[Larrath]

I didn't tell you how to play, so don't tell me how to play, and don't judge my roleplay.

This isn't personal against you, RunningMoutain, even though I did direct my response to you.
Armageddon has documentations, and these need to be followed.  Some rules aren't as strict (people are afraid of magick and worship their Sorcerer-Kings), while others are very strict - all elves steal or want to steal, all dwarves are completely hairless, all half-elves are bipolar, and men and women are equal.

This is why the documents are there.  If my concept of a Preserver was a holy saviour loved by the masses while another player thought a Preserver was actually just Tektolnes putting on a mask whenever he felt he was getting too close to annoying the True Higher Power That Rules Zalanthas, we'd just have a lot of chaos.

I'm not trying to be the roleplay police here, but some things do have to be followed.  It's part of the game's rules, just like you're not allowed to beat people up with clubs when you play Basketball.

[Cenghiz]

Nope, Running Mountain. We will tell you to make your dwarves hairless and focused all his life for one goal, your elves always on foot and filled with distrust against anyone but his tribe, and your characters having no idea of sexism. These are the rules of the game.

[RunningMountain]

The fact that it is in the documentation means it is followed by the masses, like you stated dwarves are always hairless, half-elves are bipolar, and elves always want to steal from people.  

This is all in the documentation, yes, but it's all racial documentation, when it comes to social, political structures, such as men and woman being equal, I tend to sway away from it, because I feel that woman are not represented as equal, so why should I play as if they are?

Rarely do you see a female PC that is anywhere near the level of power as male PCs, same goes for the NPCs, take a look at the history page and there are -very- few instances where a female is cited to have done something to the caliber as the males, so tell me why they are so equal?

The documentation can state it all it wants, I refuse to play my characters like they're going to be liberal in a world with absolutely no liberty.  Where's the sense in that?  The two city-states are run by dictators that set harsh laws, and have harsher consequences for breaking those laws, they have an iron-fist over the populace and they are both males,(hence the use of King) and you expect my characters to think that the very few females that he does encounter (which are always dainty fair maidens) are equal to him? Hardly.  

-RM

[RunningMountain]

Nope, Running Mountain. We will tell you to make your dwarves hairless and focused all his life for one goal, your elves always on foot and filled with distrust against anyone but his tribe, and your characters having no idea of sexism. These are the rules of the game.

Heh you can tell me to play anyway you like, I'll still play realistically.

-RM

[RunningMountain]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression here, I'm not talking about nobility or anything like that, I am talking about commoner and commoner.  If my characters run into a female noble, he knows she is better then him, in every way possible, because that is a caste system social structure that he would have been raised and beaten into believing.  

However when it comes to the same social level, very rarely would one of my PCs look up to a female, hasn't happened yet, and I don't believe it ever will, females just aren't played equally.

-RM

[sacac]

Rarely do you see a female PC that is anywhere near the level of power as male PCs, same goes for the NPCs, take a look at the history page and there are -very- few instances where a female is cited to have done something to the caliber as the males, so tell me why they are so equal?

The documentation can state it all it wants, I refuse to play my characters like they're going to be liberal in a world with absolutely no liberty.  Where's the sense in that?  The two city-states are run by dictators that set harsh laws, and have harsher consequences for breaking those laws, they have an iron-fist over the populace and they are both males,(hence the use of King) and you expect my characters to think that the very few females that he does encounter (which are always dainty fair maidens) are equal to him? Hardly.  

-RM

I agree there, but those are examples of ooc thoughts going IG.
Men can be dainty too, but most men OOcly think "oh, if I do that, it means I'm gay! And homie don't swing that way." Or whatever.

But Ig, there should be no sexism.
There are more male hero's because more males play the game and insist on being that fore front hero. And then I play wanting to be the backstreet hero.

Does that make sense to you?

[joyofdiscord]

Rarely do you see a female PC that is anywhere near the level of power as male PCs, same goes for the NPCs, take a look at the history page and there are -very- few instances where a female is cited to have done something to the caliber as the males, so tell me why they are so equal?

I'd guess this is a sort of legacy of real life slipping in.  That doesn't mean things -have- to be that way, but if RL attitudes continue to dominate IG roleplay, you will see this trnd continue.

The documentation can state it all it wants, I refuse to play my characters like they're going to be liberal in a world with absolutely no liberty.  

"Liberal" depends on context.  Gender equality (or equality for gays, or equality of skin color) is not a liberal concept in Zalanthas because that's just the way it is.  "Liberal" would be "elves and half-elves are equal to us, and magickers are just regular people who happen to have special powers."  THAT doesn't fit into the Zalanthan context, and shouldn't.

very few females that he does encounter (which are always dainty fair maidens)

First of all, I definitely would not say that female chars are always fair maidens, although I'll grudgingly admit there's probably WAY more than there should be.  But once again, this is RL attitudes seeping into the play,  and it's a problem, not something we should take as the ways things ought to be.

[sacac]

Just because they are dainty, doesn't mean they can't get you killed.
Noble or not.

[RunningMountain]

Getting me killed isn't the point, sacac.  There's plenty of female PCs that could probably beat my character's ass in combat, or by use of magick, whatnot, it's the belief factor that matters, and the use of a realistic output to make my character believe that he shouldn't cross her.  Nevertheless I've yet to encounter someone like that, and I've been playing a long time.

[joyofdiscord]

There are more male hero's because more males play the game and insist on being that fore front hero. And then I play wanting to be the backstreet hero.

Does that make sense to you?

It's definitely true that more males play the game, and most players probably prefer playing their own RL gender.  That alone would be enough to skew the hero quotient toward males.  Male players probably are disproportionately inclined to want to be the macho hero, but my own male pride doesn't want to believe that most of us fall into that trap, instead of just wanting to play a realistic character of our preferred type.  Myself, I almost universally play scumbags and outcasts, and usually not very successful ones or heroic even within their own context.  Just doesn't float my boat.  I often enjoy playing the loser.

[Qetesh]

I didn't tell you how to play, so don't tell me how to play, and don't judge my roleplay.

I think they are just stating what is pretty clear in the docs and they are right, sexism is not an issue in the game. If you choose to play a character that looks down on women and sees them as weak or inferior you are acting out of the "norm" and not really within IC reason.

That doesn't mean that you can't do that.. But you will stand out in a crowd as just plain odd/crazy. Similar to a dwarf with a beard or a kank riding elf.

[Anonymous]

It's definitely true that more males play the game, and most players probably prefer playing their own RL gender.  That alone would be enough to skew the hero quotient toward males.

This is the way I feel.  I think it has nothing to do with the proclivity of male players wanting to be the hero, and just breaks down to simple math.  More male PCs equals a higher chance of those male PCs making an impact on the world as the most famous fighters.

[Naiona]

Rarely do you see a female PC that is anywhere near the level of power as male PCs, same goes for the NPCs, take a look at the history page and there are -very- few instances where a female is cited to have done something to the caliber as the males, so tell me why they are so equal?
-RM

You are apparently forgetting an entire -half- of the game.  Tuluk is arguably visably ruled by females.  It is not a secret that the Lirathan Order is in charge of political, social and mercantile dealings inside that city, nor that Jihaens tend to defer to a similarly ranked Lirathan in most non-military situations.

For this reason, it is not at all unlikely that the citizens of Tuluk could presume that women are in some ways superior, rather then vice-versa.

[RunningMountain]

This coming from a female,  :wink:

[Dracul]

And two imms.

Tsk tsk RM.  

But uhh...unless we want to argue about it somemore. It seems to be posted, and backed up by the docs.

Topless is out of style, you migth get some disgust from the more dainty, but not at being nude itself, just by being unstylish. As for women being less than men, nope. And Im not a very liberal person, I'm more an asshole really, at least when Im in a bad mood. But...this is arm.

[RunningMountain]

You know it's all in the eye of the beholder, I'm sure Precenter Kul or Isar would have something to say about Naiona's statement.

[Qetesh]

Me, I don't personally care if you run around topless. But you might get a good deal of strange looks from the other people in the city, because unless you are a whore, or just got stripped down in your sleep, you would want to be clothed as much as possible, the sun is no fun in Zalanthas.

As for RM, I think it's been stated a few times by we the imms and a good deal of other people, Men and women are equal on all levels. If you are acting any other way, you are acting out of character for the game world, it can't be more clear than that. I approve lots of hard ass looking chicks on a daily basis in the que, so people do play them. And Niaona also clearly stated as well that the Lirathan Order runs the north almost entirely.  There is in game precedence for this, it's not some left field notion.

It is true that you see more men than women playing the rugged, muscular person on arm, but you also see more men playing arm. You can't change that. The topic of women being soft in the game has been done to death, so I'm not going to beat on it again here. But even if you don't see a lot of women PC's acting out the part of rough and tumble, as you claim, there are plenty of NPC's that fit the mold.

So my best advice is.. Don't be the Kank riding Elf and try to fit in.

[Whira's Luck]

A couple of points to touch on:

Dress - It has been said, and it bears repeating, that though apparel-types may be different in what they do/don't reveal between men and women in the city-states, each culture's fashion type as far as what is allowably revealed insofar as good/bad taste is concerned is gender-neutral. This means that male or female walking down the street in either city-state in a thong and a halter, which is normally acceptable fashionable within certain areas, would at least draw up eyebrows and at worst get you in trouble with the Important People you offend by showing off so much skin that you disgust them. In most places inside the city that you find people going around topless (or bottomless) there are both males and females who do so. Generally these are more private establishments (whorehouses, taverns, whathaveyou).

This being said, there are other places and circumstances where nudity, partial nudity, or showing off more skin than is tasteful would be acceptable, but even so, these tend to be more private: i.e. locker rooms, barracks, shared-family residences and large residences hosting extended families.  Someone acting shocked or unduly titillated that a woman or male is naked in a locker room for whatever reason (washing themselves comes to mind) or changing would probably be viewed a little weirdly, as for the most part, this is a function of such a room.  Keep in mind, most commoners, unless they've been sheltered, are likely comfortable with nudity in the respect that most have been raised in situations where privacy is not a common occurance. Nudity, therefore, would not be seen as abberant or blatantly sexual in and of itself(unless it's obviously  blatantly sexual). It's not discomfort about nudity that keeps people from running nude down the streets, just tastes about what is fashionably appropriate. Context is very important to keep in mind here.

Sexism - It's been stated time and time again that men and women are equal in Zalanthas in the physical, intellectual and the social power they have the potential to exert. This is in the documentation of the game, and to lightly dismiss it saying "Well they might put it in there but I don't believe it's the case so I'll conveniently dismiss it." is akin to dismissing -any- documented concept of the game, be it elves not riding kanks or nobility being superior. To dismiss it out of hand because of your disagreement is not playing by the rules of the game. It's kind of like saying that you don't believe any place exists with a red sun, and with all your characters emoting that the sun is yellow, and constantly talking or acting with the premise 'The Zalanthan sun is yellow.' The fact that you are doing so purposely points to an active disruption of the game for others who -are- playing the game as it's documented to be played. To paraphrase another poster: you end up playing basketball with hockey sticks and volleyballs. Despite your personal opinions of how the game -should- be played and whether the documentation meshes with that perception of how things are, you must play to the rules currently set forth in this game, otherwise it's not Armageddon you're playing.

Is there a problem with playing a misogynist, or someone who truly does believe that women are inferior? Not inherently, if that is truly a character trait and not a player trait. But if -all- of your characters, despite background differences, races and concepts share this identical trait, then it's not a character trait, it's a player trait. Among a gamut of pc's and NPC's, it would be very rare to have one point up to a red sun and call it yellow. Not impossible, but extremely rare. It would not be inappropriate for everyone else to react to such a person by obviously questioning their sanity. It is the same with the notion that women are inferior or lacking in strength, either physically, intellectually or in the same potential for social power as an equal in their class.

As a rebuttal to the other point made about there not being women in positions of power: if you, personally, have not seen it or experienced it (outside of nobility where it is granted by virtue of birth), it doesn't mean that it has not, does not, and will not happen. I have played (and likely will continue to play) leaders of a feminine persuasion, both combative leaders, financial leaders and social leaders. Have my pc's been dainty or have they used their feminine wiles to secure such power? Sometimes, but not in all cases, or even in most cases, certainly not in the combative cases. Have I played ugly female pc's in power and seen unattractive female (or even attractive) pc's not only rise to positions but maintain them? Certainly so, and not only are they good leaders (as good as and in some cases better than the equivalent males) but many of them are just as or even more dangerous (be it through manipulation, direct control or prone to physical violence) as men. On the other side of the coin, I have also encountered quite a few men who were weak physically, and of unsound mind (to me, any pc who charges out the gates to go fight anything larger and stronger than they are on a whim would be of unsound mind. They might be brave, but bravery isn't equatable to intelligence or even common sense), or who were skittish to physical violence, and quite a bit more domestic and gentle than the females around them.

If you believe that women are only able to gain and maintain leadership and respect through being dainty, helpless, and exerting sexual control, then you are missing the point of leadership and power. It may even be argued that it is possible to gain power through sexual control (and I don't even see that as a particularly bad thing), but if that is the -only- quality a leader possesses, then rest assured, they won't be able to maintain said power. In essence, it is safe to assume that a commoner is in a position of power (be it social/financial prowess, physical prowess or leadership qualities) because they have been able to maintain this power and in doing so demand your respect despite your personal (as a player and not a character) feelings on the matter, if you are in a position where that respect is warranted by virtue of YOUR position. To behave otherwise is to not play to the spirit of the game, and ICly can be viewed as aberrant behavior.

[RunningMountain]

Well said, WL, your post makes a lot of sense.  For me it depends on the character, like with a dwarf, I think if I ever did encounter a female dwarf, it would be highly different the way I roleplay that, but with certain rough male characters, as far as treating woman as equals, it might happen one day, but not until the character in question gets a reason to.

[Revelations]

If you were to meet an effeminate male, wouldn't you look down upon him from the perspective of a masculine man? Typically, at least in my opinion, if a woman appears to be effeminate or delicate, then I can reason with RM, the same as if a male appeared fragile. That's first impression now, the intellect of the person can change that perspective in an instant, depending on how well she (or he) proves himself. If that's the outlook that you have RM, I don't find that too OOC. You should just state your positions better.  :wink:  If it isn't, then at least that's how I feel. This is a world of the survival of the fittest, those that don't appear to be fit enough to live tend to get looked down upon by the opposite gender, as well as your own.

[RunningMountain]

That's exactly how I feel about it.  But it depends on the character's personality.

[Nao]

Running mountain, you make me wanna play an extremely 'kick-crotch' female again now... Or a seemingly gay, 'lovely-maiden' soft type man (never even played a male, unless you count 4-year olds)...

[RunningMountain]

Be my guest, I'll end up killing you.
Do take this as sarcasm please.

[flurry]

However when it comes to the same social level, very rarely would one of my PCs look up to a female, hasn't happened yet, and I don't believe it ever will, females just aren't played equally.

What do you mean when you say they aren't "played equally"?  

Regardless, IMHO maybe a better approach is to set the example rather than add to IC sexism that contradicts the docs.

[RunningMountain]

I hear you, flurry, but I have a certain style of play that I enjoy, however I just might make a female in the near future.

[Vanth]

Ironically, most of the femme weakling females are played by men.

[RunningMountain]

Uuuuuuuughh..

[Anonymous]

RM, I would recommend you play a female, just to get a feel for it. I did and it was one of the more interesting roles I ever played.  You will have to confront issues you didn't think you would have to, and try to keep it IC which can be very oocly awkward.  Just so you know as well, many of the burly, manly men out there are in truth female.  Some play males so they don't need to deal with the sexist bs.

[John]

Rarely do you see a female PC that is anywhere near the level of power as male PCs, same goes for the NPCs, take a look at the history page and there are -very- few instances where a female is cited to have done something to the caliber as the males, so tell me why they are so equal?

You should think about playing a powerful female character then. I'm not saying you have to, just suggesting you think about it

The documentation can state it all it wants, I refuse to play my characters like they're going to be liberal in a world with absolutely no liberty.

That's like playing a homicidal maniac for every single character. Do there exist sexists and homicidal maniacs? Sure. But they're the exception and should have good reasons to be like that. I'd recommend including in your background every single time that you're a sexist. It's an important part of your character that should stand out.

[Marauder Moe]

It has been a very very long time since I saw a female PC templar in Allanak, though.  

[Naiona]

It has been a very very long time since I saw a female PC templar in Allanak, though.  

And believe me, Halaster and I are just waiting for a good female app for one (when we have an opening, that is).

I will note that one of the most powerful NPC Red Robes in Allanak is a female.

[JollyGreenGiant]

It has been a very very long time since I saw a female PC templar in Allanak, though.  

I was just thinking that the other day, actually.

With that said, I now summon forth Delirium, who will act as my substitute Lazloth, and will find all the recent threads that either started out discussing or ended up discussing the same tired topic that this thread is now discussing.  Then, we can all read those instead of saying the same things all over again in a new thread.  Blah blah men blah blah women blah blah sexism, seriously, sometimes, I think the only reason you people manage to survive is that I haven't invented a way to stab people in the face over the internet.

[RunningMountain]

That's awesome Naiona, but I wish that the players would try to reiterate this equality more, I remember this one bald female PC in the militia that truly scared one of my elven characters to the point where He pretty much rarely went southside because He thought she was gonna rip his balls off.  It was really fun seeing that, but it was the only time I've ever seen it in my 7 years I've been around.

[sacac]

Running mountain. You have inspired me to change a special app.

[RunningMountain]

"Boldly walk into tomorrow with a purpose
                          and a vision for a better world."
                                                        - Henry Leo Bolduc

[V. Dentata]

Okay, one post says:

I always play my characters as looking at females "below" him

and then you go on to say

I wish that the players would try to reiterate this equality more

Aren't you a player?  If you want to see this more in evidence (I think that's what you mean by reiterate), maybe the change should start at home.  Or is it just those damn women again, playing badly?  Damn them.  Don't they know they should play how they like, despite all the male PCs looking at them as lower in status?

[RunningMountain]

Sure I'm a player, but I like certain roles, I'm still very open-minded though and may one day try to make something akin to what in my eyes should be a female on zalanthas.  Tough. Muscular. And very homely.

[Cuusardo]

I fail to see the reason behind every single character believing that women are below him.  Women work just as hard, if not harder than men.  

Why do I say they work harder?  Because they are the ones who have to bear the children, and often times they end up working until they go into labor because they can't afford not to.

[RunningMountain]

Good point, but not every character of mine does, only certain ones with the personality to.

[Cuusardo]

Sexism should be existance though, and I always play my characters as looking at females "below" him...

[RunningMountain]

"my" characters as in the characters that would have reason to look at females below him, rough mercenaries, veteran soldiers, and most lone hunters.  I played a benjari merchant that saw woman as equal, even though I never came across any nomadic woman.

[Cuusardo]

I still don't see why those types of characters should look down upon women.  There are many, many rough mercenaries, veteran soldiers, and lone hunters that are women that are just as good at what they do as any man.

[HardCarbon]

Sexism should be existance though, and I always play my characters as looking at females "below" him...

This Ain't Earth....  Females here are just as mean nasty and strong as men....


""Deal with it mahn!!!""

[Adhira]

I'll make sure to kick a few crotches next time I've a pc out and about wearing dainty little heels.   :roll:

Having said that. Locking this post. I don't think there's anything more to be added to it.