Take away the 'Look' echo.

[Anonymous]

I've noticed that the look command is quite provocative.  When people enter taverns they are often looked at, most times with no emotes, so it just shows a "looks up at you" or "looks at you".  Sometimes I find the look command is more trouble than it's worth, even with a good emote after, as the person you looked at will more than likely look back at you.

Even if I typed "look lean with the briefest of glances", that person would probably look at me, when, realistically, that person might not even notice.  In RL, I don't notice when people look at me, unless I'm staring right at them or see them clearly.

What I propose is taking away the look echo, and just emote the looking if you want that person to know.  Other MUDs don't have look echoes, and I feel it's better that way.  Thoughts?

[RunningMountain]

I like the look echo because it lets you know that someone is studying you.
How about a glance command that shows only someone's equipment? That way there's no echo for that, but if you want to see a main description (eyes, hair, features) you refer to look.

-RM

[Elgiva]

I like the look echo because it lets you know that someone is studying you.
How about a glance command that shows only someone's equipment? That way there's no echo for that, but if you want to see a main description (eyes, hair, features) you refer to look.

-RM

Something like.... peek?

[RunningMountain]

Nah, peek shows weapons on belt, and can show inside containers.  Just a glance that shows equipment that would be seen with the look command.  So glance wouldnt show items hidden beneath a cloak, etc.

[Rhyden]

Nah, peek shows weapons on belt, and can show inside containers.  Just a glance that shows equipment that would be seen with the look command.  So glance wouldnt show items hidden beneath a cloak, etc.

I like it. Look echoes can be too jarring sometimes and I don't see any harm in it. Maybe it could be the opposite. With glance, all you see is their ldesc or something? I don't really care so long as it takes away that irritating look echo.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I agree.  Something like this is needed.  I was recently in a situation where some blurry something-or-other was  being all scary.  At least two of us, maybe more could see it relatively clearly, but a statement was made that was basically, "if you look at me, you die!!!!!"  

I couldn't help but think how impossible that was.  Of course we were looking at it.  But had any of us taken the coded "look" it would have delivered an echo that would have gotten us killed.  So, what, we were virtually looking at it?   Until then, I never really felt a non-echo look was needed.

[nameless]

I'm all in favor of getting rid of the echo.  I dunno why, when I get that "Looks at you, looks up at you, looks down at you." It feels akward... I rather just emote looking at them if I wanted that person's attention.
(edited because public education sucks)

[mansa]

I'm not.  Peek all the way.  If you want how people look at you differently, just type 'look soandso blah blah blah not normal look echo'

[RunningMountain]

look blur with a glance

Welcome to Armageddon.

[Armaddict]

If that blur is watching you, they'll notice you looking at them, and you'll die.

It's pretty easy to tell when someone is looking at you.

I like the echo...it spams, but so do emotes and gatherings with your friends.

Suck it up.

[RunningMountain]

No I was referring to the guys post about how the magicker said
"Don't look at me or you'll die!" Well only if he notices you looking, which is why glance would be nice. Just to see his eq at least. But then you guys can say well we have peek, but not everyone can peek, so a quick glance isn't feasible for those warriors out there? Or am I just rambling..


-RM

[Armaddict]

look so and so with a quick glance.

[Delirium]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8991
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10680
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12251&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

[John]

If that blur is watching you, they'll notice you looking at them, and you'll die.

There's a difference between "A blur behind you whispers in your ear 'look at me and you die.'" to seeing the echo of a blur, emoting turning around looking at it with your mouth agape as you emote looking at it and the blur saying "If you look at me, you die" and surviving the encounter by not codedly looking at the blur, while emoting looking at it.

I don't know what the situation was in this particular case, but if it was what I described, the blur should have killed the emoter

[The Dude]

I think the echo is entirely appropriate. Entirely necessary, as well.

If you're looking at someone close enough to notice all their facial features, eye color, scarring, tattoos, clothing, and armament, I'd say it's pretty unusual that that look of yours is just a glance. Indeed, I think it's very much possible that I'm going to notice you looking at me that hard.

With that perspective in mind, I am opposed to the very wording of "l with a glance" and its ilk. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[RunningMountain]

The Dude, I totally agree, which is why people should be able to use
glance dude
and get

<worn on head> a cap reading 'the Dude'
<worn on torso> a plain black shirt
<worn on legs> a pair of white tighty-whities
<worn on feet> slippers

instead of getting your mdesc... and I won't go as far as to write your mdesc for you..

-RM

[John]

If you're looking at someone close enough to notice all their facial features, eye color, scarring, tattoos, clothing, and armament, I'd say it's pretty unusual that that look of yours is just a glance. Indeed, I think it's very much possible that I'm going to notice you looking at me that hard.

With that perspective in mind, I am opposed to the very wording of "l with a glance" and its ilk. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Who says I do notice that when I type "l <person>"? Perhaps I only notice your tattoo in your mdesc, I might go for a second look, or I might not. But if I don't know your desc OOCly, I'm not going to know if there is something about you my character will notice.

In real life, some people draw your eye because there is something about that stands out oddly to you. Unless you "l" at someone in-game you won't notice. That person might only have one arm or perhaps they have a magicker's gem. Perhaps they're in rags or naked, but unless you type "l" you're not going to notice. So I'll do "l with a glance" until a glance command enters the game.

[flurry]

I am definitely in favor of keeping the look echo, and I am a little puzzled as to why look echos get so much negative attention but other echos don't.

Attaching "with a glance", or something similar, never bothered me either, but I also never thought of it as an undetectable look.   Just a brief one.

[Angela Christine]

I agree with Flurry.

[Linedel]

I could see the existance of a middle level of no-echo look that showed cloak, body, legwear, and potentially any "clan identifying" items that supposedly people notice immediately or whatnot.  This would not show the character's description.

I'm not sure what I'd call it.

If you want their full equipment list of details, you should have to pay the echo.

[Anael]

I could see the existance of a middle level of no-echo look that showed cloak, body, legwear, and potentially any "clan identifying" items that supposedly people notice immediately or whatnot.

Legs, body (or torso), head and back wearlocations. Yea. I like.

[moab]

You guys find the echo from look spammy?
:shock:

[picklehead]

I used to be bothered with look spam and constantly feel the need to look at everyone, especially people that looked at me, etc.. but now.. eh.. I just don't seem to worry about that sort of stuff. Must be all the drugs.

[lazycritic]

One should naturally be aware of the builds and equipment of the people around them. Sdesc and a "glance" would do that for them.

Glance would be awesome.

[Twilight]

I remember getting mugged by four or five people in cloaks.  Stop or die.  Look at us and die.

Okaaaaay.  Don't look at the guy who has me subdued, or the guy rifling through the stuff (still on my person) or the other two guys standing there holding weapons towards me.  Right.

The problem with look echoing is that people know the OOC output this command gives you.  They know how it can identify them.  So they IC actions which are really meant so that you don't get IC information (like what the person mugging me was wearing?   Hello?) as a player that your character would have.

[Moofassa]

I agree with the motion towards getting rid of the look echo. I sometimes find that no matter what tag you throw onto the end, there will always be people who notice/take into account, even if they shouldn't. So, I think, if someone wants to let others know that they've been looked at, they can throw it in an emote--> It's not always obvious that you're being looked at, and no matter what, people can see others looking.

The figure in a pink and purple polkadotted-sandcloth cloak, glances up at you from the opposite corner of the room, his entire body hidden in shadows.

You would definetly get a negative reaction from this, because of the :hidden in shadow. This again is a trust issue.

I do think though, that if the look echo were removed it would be abused.

[proxie]

Okay, how about this.

Look with no arguments yields no echo.

Look with arguments gives you the emoted look like normal.

So if you want to be looking at someone subtly or blatantly, then you can do it.

Proxie

[Moofassa]

I like it.

[Elgiva]

I like look with echo.  *shrug*

[The Dude]

Okay, how about this.

Look with no arguments yields no echo.

Look with arguments gives you the emoted look like normal.

So if you want to be looking at someone subtly or blatantly, then you can do it.

If you're looking at someone close enough to see all the same intricacies, I'd absolutely disagree with the removal of an echo. The glance idea doesn't sound too bad though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Raiders need the look echo.

We need a coded difference between staring and looking. With no coded difference, I am not going to 'trust' that the player won't run to the nearest town with my full bloody description. And let's hear nothing about such things as, "masks don't hide your features and cloaks don't cover you up," and alla that.

The look command gives too much info for there to be no echo, and not looking is unrealistic because you can not notice anything at all. The whole thing needs to be revamped, and until other projects are tackled, it's probably not at the top of the list of things to do.

Until then, you look, you die.

[ale six]

I think the "look at me and die" situations here are pretty stupid and examples of poor roleplaying, honestly. If you're talking to someone and standing in front of them and they can see you, of COURSE they're looking at you. Whether they 'look figure' or not doesn't make much difference ICly.

I don't have a problem with the look echo.

[moab]

Perhaps, Ale, but it's an understandable response from a raider who gets his sdesc, most of his ldesc and his shoe size posted on the nearest tavern board because someone "looked, logged, and lived."

[Tlaloc]

I'd have to agree that, in my opinion, telling someone: "Look at me or die" while you're raiding them, or being magickally blurry, or any other similar situation is sketchy, at best.

Again, though, I tend to be a bit of an idealist. I feel that raiders should open themselves up to the possibilities of their descriptions getting out, and maybe rely on that. Afterall: who's going to know who the Evil Dune Stalker is, without at least a halfway decent description?

Furthering that: if you're a raider, you should be ready to become a wanted criminal. Thats what you are. The role you are playing, when you become a raider (or an evil Sorcerer), is that of wanted criminal. Its one thing to try and minimize people recognizing you, but its another to be surprised and kill folks when they try and pass your description around. If you don't want to be hunted as a raider (or an Evil Sorcerer) don't raid, or be an Evil Sorcerer. If you raid, and actually have to pay a price for your raids (like...not being able to go back to a city-state, or getting your ass hunted by Templars), then yes it sucks, but thems the breaks. Welcome to Armageddon.

At the same time, I feel that victims need to be ready to not automagickally know everything about the raiders main description if they do catch a look at them. The responsibility goes both ways for all players to play in a -realistic- manner. "I got raided, but I didn't get a good look at him. All I saw were a couple of scars, and a bright orange bandana tied to his left ankle" is a perfectly acceptable report to make to your supperiors. If you get raided by the same guy again...come back with more details.

Again, it also comes down to this: if you are being raided (of Evil Sorcerered), you should be ready to be a victim. Be ready to get killed, or at least victimized somehow. If you didn't want to be raided, you shoudn't put yourself into a position that makes it easy for someone to do so (like being alone in the desert without friends). If the raider decides to kill you...it sucks, but thems the breaks. Welcome to Armageddon. Again.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter, and don't nessecarially represent the thoughts of the Staff as a whole.

[amoeba]

if you're a raider, you should be ready to become a wanted criminal. Thats what you are.

if you are being raided (of Evil Sorcerered), you should be ready to be a victim.

[bloodfromstone]

"Look at me and die" is really, really bad show, in my opinion. It's a way of thinking about the code behind the game and not the role and situation you're playing out. You can't say "Well, some people will run to the guards with my full description even though I was wearing a cloak! That's bad roleplaying!", then turn around and start lowering the bar of your own rp to compensate.

Besides, there ARE things in main descriptions that you could see on someone wearing a facemask or cloak. Sure, you shouldn't go rattling off the arm tattoos of someone wearing a full body cloak and a veil, but chances are you could get a look at their eyes. You could know their general build, etc, etc, etc.... Of course, these are all subjective, but you get the idea.

[Armaddict]

Ehm.

Sorry, but 'look at me and die' happens in real life, as well.

You -can- see when someone's eyes are on you.  If they are, you may not want them to be, and so you take them off.  If the echo is removed, you -know- there are going to be people looking, while emoting keeping their gaze averted.  This is a trust issue.  As we've seen before in raiding and theft and whatever...trust is completely lacking on this mud, and will continue to be lacking while people take advantage of it.

As to the raiding.  Be ready to become a known criminal because that's what you are?  Yes.  But that's the idea of the 'look at me and die'.  Some people do not -want- to be -known- raiders.  If the guy has you subdued and in a lock...what if they're behind you?  Looking at them is going to be pretty damn obvious.  In these situations, not everyone is going to attach an emote to it, either.  The point is...precautions must be made with what we're given in the code to do it.

If my hood is up, and I'm keeping my face slightly averted...a description on me is going to be far sketchier than what you get with a 'look'.  But if we release them after a look, they have all that information.  And suddenly, despite precautions taken, you are hunted down and killed because you showed -trust- in the 'victim', who uses thinks and emotes to suddenly put themselves on top.  Face it...a lot of people play this game like a competition.  If they can win over you, they will.

I don't see -anything- wrong with the look echo to the point that it should be removed.  At all.

[Anonymous]

As someone who changes/changed my equipment fairly regularly in order to disguise myself, I think a glance that just showed equipment without an echo would be nice. Based on that, you can decide whether to give the person a closer look.

The echo for look is fine, I guess, and it should stay in-place.

On a sidenote, I've ran into twinks matching main descriptions recently, and that pisses me off.

"I saw a cloaked half-elf!"
"How'd ya know he was a half-elf with the cowl up?"
"I saw the tattoos in his hands!"

:roll:

If the echo is removed, you -know- there are going to be people looking, while emoting keeping their gaze averted. This is a trust issue. As we've seen before in raiding and theft and whatever...trust is completely lacking on this mud, and will continue to be lacking while people take advantage of it.

Exactly. If I was a prudent raider, I would probably wear a facewrap, a cowl, a different set of armor, and wear a different weapon.

I'd probably come into town to find people pointing fingers after matching main descs. That's a problem.

[ale six]

If you sneak up behind my character, subdue her, hold her with a knife to her throat and say "look at me and die", I won't look at you. I obviously have no way to do that logically without blatantly turning to look.

If you ride up to my face, while I'm happily walking through the desert picking flowers or something, draw a sword on me, and say "look at me and die", that's pretty stupid. If you're not invisible, I can SEE you talking to me, and just a glance should be able to give away noticable features (ie parts of your description) even if I DON'T stare.

If you don't want to be a known raider, then get creative with it. There are skills you can use to incapacitate someone and rob them blind without them ever seeing you. You want to just intimidate someone out of their stuff, standing in front of them and holding them at knifepoint? They're going to see you, because they have eyes.

Obviously, as a raider with a victim at knifepoint you have the upper hand and can kill them anyway if you feel like it. But if you start killing everyone you raid because you think they're getting too good a look at you, maybe it's time to change your technique so they don't?

[Armaddict]

If you don't want to be a known raider, then get creative with it. There are skills you can use to incapacitate someone and rob them blind without them ever seeing you. You want to just intimidate someone out of their stuff, standing in front of them and holding them at knifepoint? They're going to see you, because they have eyes.

Okay.  To get creative...let's have a group of raiders that hide in the desert with high archery skills, and completely rip apart lone riders with arrows.  Guess how long it will be before archery being overpowered is the topic of discussion, rather than the look echo?

We want to intimidate people at knifepoint, with our face-wraps on, so we stand in front of them...and they look directly at us after we say keep your eyes averted.  We see it, because we are also watching -them-.  So we kill him.  Is the corpse's buddy going to look directly at us?  Intimidation at knifepoint.

As to seeing people ride up...this is why you generally get a look echo the moment you enter the same room as someone else in the desert.  Because you watch their approach.  However...from watching you ride up from a distance, with your facewrap on, hood up, and sand blowing around...you somehow get an exact physical description to tell people.  To prevent this...most raiders don't release their prey.

Once again...where is the -need- to remove the look echo?  Is this all to get rid of spam?  Or do you just want to be able to check out people's gear without them noticing?

[ale six]

I don't actually have a problem with the look echo, as I said earlier. My problem was more with "look at me and die", which seems to be derailing this thread, so I'll drop it.

Checking out people's gear without them (usually) noticing is called peek.

[Twilight]

IC'ly my raided character may not have seen your face.  But he probably saw your weapons, seeing as how you were threatening him with them.  And maybe your boots or whatnot.  However, how come I get the impression that even if I "look raider staring down the raiders boots" I would get killed?

I determine WHAT, HOW, and WHEN my character saw things with the look command.  NOT YOU.  Sorry for the all caps, but I think it needs to be emphasized.  Me using the look command, and you coming back with "and he stared me right in the face" is just blatant abuse up there with power emoting of forcing RP on another character.  Especially when it is the very actions of the other character you are forcing.  I could be looking at just your boots and legs.  But I still need to use the look command if I can't guess the keywords of those items.

I'm not in favor of removing the echo, I'm just in favor of people thinking about things realistically.  I personally like seeing the echo, so that I can adjust the stupidometer when I see people look at every single person entering a tavern, or walking in and looking at every PC in the room they haven't met before or the infamous "I look at you, you look at me" routine.

[Armaddict]

Omigosh!  The raider had dusty boots!  This must be him!

[John]

However...from watching you ride up from a distance, with your facewrap on, hood up, and sand blowing around...you somehow get an exact physical description to tell people.

I agree that's fairly twinky. But so is "look at me and die" if I've already had a good chance to look at you (but you know codedly I haven't taken this chance yet, yet I've been facing you). A glance command would work wonders in such a situation (no, I won't know you from your dusty boots, but I might know your part of those Red Bandits who only wear red).

But what about in a tavern and you sit next to me, or next to someone I'm facing. I might notice you have really flakey skin (and you have a hood up or a face wrap to hide your sdesc), I might not notice you at all. I might notice your heaving bossom, I might not. Without looking at you, I won't know if I notice you. But because of the echo, I somehow automagically notice you, or I automagically don't notice you (despite the fact you've got long red hair and I've got a red-head fetish).

[Armaddict]

This is where player trust comes in John.

It's called 'discretion', as to what you notice and you don't.  Unfortunately, trust is a rare commodity these days.

[elvenchipmunk]

I'm in total agreement with another command such as "glance" or whatever. I just think that it is very possible you could look at someone quickly, catch a quick glimpse of them, and turn away before they notice you. As others have said, just do

Code Select Expand

look monkey with a quick glance. This...doesn't work in my opinion. It can be abused by both sides (the looker remembering the whole mdesc and equipment with only a "quick glance". The lookee noticing "codedly" that the looker looked at them, when they wouldn't have noticed at all.)

[nameless]

Here's a quick question, does all looks have an echo? Like "Look self"?

[Dracul]

'look self'         doesn't echo.

[HardCarbon]

As someone who for RP reasons tried to keep their appearence hidden the X-ray vision granted by look was annoying... I got hauled off while the OTHER  hooded fellow (sitting link dead at the bar for 2 RL days) was ignored...   Lucky for me I live in Albany and work for the Excuse of the Month club and have a ready supply ....  Some Job perks are well worth it.

I'd have to agree that, in my opinion, telling someone: "Look at me or die" while you're raiding them, or being magickally blurry, or any other similar situation is sketchy, at best.

Again, though, I tend to be a bit of an idealist. I feel that raiders should open themselves up to the possibilities of their descriptions getting out, and maybe rely on that. Afterall: who's going to know who the Evil Dune Stalker is, without at least a halfway decent description?

Furthering that: if you're a raider, you should be ready to become a wanted criminal. Thats what you are. The role you are playing, when you become a raider (or an evil Sorcerer), is that of wanted criminal. Its one thing to try and minimize people recognizing you, but its another to be surprised and kill folks when they try and pass your description around. If you don't want to be hunted as a raider (or an Evil Sorcerer) don't raid, or be an Evil Sorcerer. If you raid, and actually have to pay a price for your raids (like...not being able to go back to a city-state, or getting your ass hunted by Templars), then yes it sucks, but thems the breaks. Welcome to Armageddon.

At the same time, I feel that victims need to be ready to not automagickally know everything about the raiders main description if they do catch a look at them. The responsibility goes both ways for all players to play in a -realistic- manner. "I got raided, but I didn't get a good look at him. All I saw were a couple of scars, and a bright orange bandana tied to his left ankle" is a perfectly acceptable report to make to your supperiors. If you get raided by the same guy again...come back with more details.

Again, it also comes down to this: if you are being raided (of Evil Sorcerered), you should be ready to be a victim. Be ready to get killed, or at least victimized somehow. If you didn't want to be raided, you shoudn't put yourself into a position that makes it easy for someone to do so (like being alone in the desert without friends). If the raider decides to kill you...it sucks, but thems the breaks. Welcome to Armageddon. Again.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter, and don't nessecarially represent the thoughts of the Staff as a whole.

[Anonymous]

One thing I noticed, is that, if you want to not be provocative by looking at someone, you won't look.  But suppose the person you decide not to look at is completely naked, or everything on them is bloodied, or something like that.  That's something someone would notice, so you should be able to freely look at someone without it echoing, because after all, things you would automatically notice don't really need to come with an echo.

[HardCarbon]

One thing I noticed, is that, if you want to not be provocative by looking at someone, you won't look.  But suppose the person you decide not to look at is completely naked, or everything on them is bloodied, or something like that.  That's something someone would notice, so you should be able to freely look at someone without it echoing, because after all, things you would automatically notice don't really need to come with an echo.

 You look.. but don't take advantage of things you wouldn't be able to see... (ie hidden or cloaked)


  Unless your a piece of trash winrothrol..

[Tamarin]

emote looks at everyone but you.