The X-haired, Y-eyed masses

[amoeba]

[derail]
Has anyone ever had 'the green man'?
[/derail]

Rofl,  shouldn't that be "the little green man"?

[Apollonius]

The emote:
pemote dagger rises above ~fatty.
will probably show:
The man with green hair's dagger rises above ~fatty.
Is that gramatically correct?

[Spoon]

[derail]
Has anyone ever had 'the green man'?
[/derail]

Rofl,  shouldn't that be "the little green man"?

Nah, that'd be plural. Like those groups of soldiers you get.

>look north

[near]
The little green men are standing here.

[joyofdiscord]

The emote:
pemote dagger rises above ~fatty.
will probably show:
The man with green hair's dagger rises above ~fatty.
Is that gramatically correct?

Not by standard English it isn't.  You can't just tack a possessive indicator onto the end of a multi-world noun phrase like that.  But by Arm English, we all know what it means.  Technically it would mean the man himself rises above fatty, and at the moment he is with a dagger owned by "green hair", whoever or whatever that is.

Edited to include quote so the post actually makes sense.

[lazycritic]

I fail to see the coorelation. Seriously. Nitpicking at insignificant details does what to enhance the overall enjoyment of the game?

Showing me your eye color does what to describe your character?

Seriously, my problem is not that it's unrealistic to see eye color. It's plain bland. It doesn't add anything to my mental image of a character. Thus I'm left with a simple keyword, and from that I can get relatively little. I tend to skim main descriptions.

Your sdesc is presented every second. Use that to your advantange and you can enhance my overall enjoyment of the game, at least.

And lots of people notice other people's eyes when they talk to them. So to those, the eyes are very prominent.

Relatively few people. The only eye color I know for sure is my mother's.  Beyond that they're all either mostly brown or blue for me.

I rarely use it myself, but I'll be damned if I give two shits if someone else uses it. It's their character, and I for one am perfectly capable of roleplaying out a scene with full enjoyment without getting all hung up over whether or not I can really see the brown-haired, yellow-eyed man's eyes. I just decide. If I can't, I can't, if I can, I can. Now wasn't that simple?

See above. My problem is not only that it's unrealistic to describe someone by their eye color(which, in most cases --especially people you've seen at a passing glance--, it is). I'm simply stating that giving me your eye color(every damn second) does little to nothing to my mind-image of your character. Take that for what you will; it's the truth for me.

I'm liable(not likely) to treat people differently based on their sdesc.

[Reiloth]

What I cannot seem to understand is...

The short description is basically irrelevant to several things:

A players level of roleply, style of roleplay, or even the depth of their long-description.

Along the same lines as that post earlier this week of leet killers who just roam through rooms and kill everything in sight...

How are you not certain that the eye-color is one of the most important parts about the character? I know it is with my current one, and has been with at least one other character in the past. I've also run into a few characters whose eyes were basically essential.

Don't just judge the book by the cover, says I.

As far as overall enjoyment of the game...In a game completely based on words, I can see that argument. But the words aren't sitting their making fun of you. I see plenty of tall half elves, but that doesn't make me judge their character because of three words. Or make me think less of their roleplaying, if they are in fact falling into character very well.

While it is tiresome to see the blue-eyed blonde-haired woman, I think it matters very little in the entirity of things what the person's sdesc is.

The problem I find even more frustrating is people using two words to describe somthing much easier to understand in a full sentance of their long description, such as "Pock-marked" or "Scarred" or "Bulky, Hale, Sinewy". I mean, I have very little trouble with it, but i think thats more of a pet peeve than simple sdescs.

[The Slovenly Urchin]

To those who say the sdesc is a superficiality and shouldn't have an impact on gameplay one way or another, I say: this whole game is made of text! Your sdesc is the single most representative part of you within the game. It shows up over and over again, in everything you do, in hundreds of other PCs' eyes. It's worth making it at least interesting to read, even if the character him- or herself is not interesting per se. It's all well and good to say I shouldn't judge books by their covers, but when all the books on a shelf are solid beige except for one, which is orange with purple polka-dots (or hell, anything but beige), which one do you think I'm gonna wanna pick up? The book analogy is actually very apt. If every character is a book, then from an advertising standpoint, it's worth thinking about your book's cover art. Other people have made excellent points about the eyes being a bad thing to describe in the sdesc, which I hadn't even thought of.

-The Slovenly Urchin

[Elgiva]

Well... you pick the orange book, because it looks like interesting. During my years on university, I learned most interesting books are usually under most boring and usual cover.
EDITed to add: which means I will not pick the orange book. No matter it is orange. Why? Because I know it does not mean it is fun to read it.

The sdesc tells you what the other player wants to tell you. Yes, "your sdesc is the single most representative part of you within the game". So if someone wants to be represented as the brown-haired, brown-eyed man, it is his decision and it tells you what he thinks is most important.

Look around at NPCs. Some of them have unusual and strange words in their sdesc. Some of them are x-haired, y-eyed.

[Moofassa]

Wow, you must be a **edited because i'm a bad flamer**... If you judge people solely on their appearance, the first time you meet them....

And this game ISNT text, to the characters who see the text, that is real, it's their world. IF you can't get past the idea that they are just bots, you have no right to be telling other people, that since their sdesc is plain and boring, they are a horrible roleplayer. Heavens to Betsy batman, that man is as dumb a kank fly!

If Sanvean,or Queen as the turqs call her... by the way... have you ever noticed how every turq player is an awesome roleplayer?.. anyways.. queen.. yes, if her sdesc was the black-haired, blue-eyed woman... would you discard her as being some crappy slack-jawed roleplayer, even if you had gotten to know her, and realise that she is an l337 uber roleplayer? I dont think so.

Get your head out of your box. The game is based upon imagination, not text.

[The Slovenly Urchin]

Elgiva - Certainly, it's their choice to represent themselves however they want. But when I see everyone using the same formula (X-haired, Y-eyed), it occurs to me that maybe they're not giving their sdesc much thought. It looks a whole lot like they just used the same formula they saw everyone else using. That's all I'm saying. If you're X-haired and Y-eyed, and it's completely calculated on your part, and you don't mind looking like everyone else, more power to you.

Moofassa - Dude, show me where I said people with lame sdescs are bad roleplayers? I never said that, and never would. Roleplaying has nothing to do with this thread (notice I didn't post it on the roleplaying board.) I'm talking purely about presentation, here.

You people think presentation doesn't matter? Try reading a book by a genius who can't write. Whose every sentence goes "<subject> <verb> [object]." You would drop that shit like it was hot. Presentation is AT LEAST half of what constitutes good writing. And when you're writing your sdesc and mdesc, this is your opportunity to show off your 1337 writing skillz. Why settle for the old standby when you could do something cool and creative?

-TSU

PS: The argument about characters not seeing text is a complete non-sequitur. Of course they don't see the text. I do. And it hurts me.

[John]

Well all day today I've concentrated on sdescs. I wouldn't say a disproportionate amount of people have the x-haired, y-eyed formula. In a busy tavern, there'll be plenty of people without it. There's always a certain percentage of sdescs that have the formula, but it hasn't become an epidemic.

[The Dude]

You guys are reading into Mr. Urchin way too much.

...you have no right to be telling other people, that since their sdesc is plain and boring, they are a horrible roleplayer.

I must've missed the point at which anyone was called a horrible roleplayer for having a boring or uninformative sdesc, Moofassa. Exactly how far between the lines were you reading? I've reread a few times and I must've missed it. Nothing's been implied of that sort, as far as I can tell, except by you. Please don't get so defensive - no one's attacking you personally.

During my years on university, I learned most interesting books are usually under most boring and usual cover.

Great, but the book's actual content at this point is irrelevant, Elgiva, cause all we're doing is strolling down the aisle or looking across from the other end of the store, and the only one standing out is this orange one with the polkadots that - more likely than not - everyone else is looking at too.

If Britney Spears was ugly, would we know her name? No, probably not.
Would her music still be laughably bad? Yes, it probably would.

No, having a plain, uninformative sdesc will not keep me from roleplaying with you, and no one here's saying that it will.

Just because this guy's sdesc is brown-haired, brown-eyed, it doesn't mean that when I'm sitting on the next stool down the line, I'm going to regard him as anything less than the next guy, but he'd still be doing himself a favor to go and change it to the wiry, baobab-mohawked man, because everyone around him will actually gain some understanding of what he looks like. Hey, maybe my brother's got a mohawk or I'm looking for skinny guys to start a throwing contest among my half-giant buddies. Who knows?

So if someone wants to be represented as the brown-haired, brown-eyed man, it is his decision and it tells you what he thinks is most important.

Yes, or perhaps he thought this was how all sdescs are supposed to be. Maybe no one's told him there are other (better) options because it's all he sees around him. Or, perhaps he just sees it as the "norm", however unfortunate that may be.

I'm not sure if this was some sort of point you were trying to argue, but The Slovenly Urchin isn't trying to rally the townsfolk and hand out torches/pitchforks to storm the Immortal character app review booth with demands that this sort of sdesc be denied. He's saying it's a bad idea in general to have a plain sdesc that tells the world around you nothing about your character. And yes, I believe he is correct in that assertion.

No one's telling anyone to molest the hell out of a thesaurus either (if you read Urchin's original post, he actually discourages this), but there are so, SO many better things to describe on a character than just the color, and ONLY the color mind you of hair and eyes - eyes, also mind you, that any given character may never ever get a decent look at as compared to the rest of the very same said person.

[John]

If Britney Spears was ugly, would we know her name? No, probably not.
Would her music still be laughably bad? Yes, it probably would.

Does that mean people with exciting and interesting sdescs (the armageddon equivalent to beautiful) actually have no substance whatsoever? In that case I'll be staying away from them

Sorry, just couldn't help myself. It's meant as a bit of fun, not a flame

[amoeba]

He's saying it's a bad idea in general to have a plain sdesc that tells the world around you nothing about your character. And yes, I believe he is correct in that assertion..

And other people, myself included disagree.  Sometimes plain is perfectly fine.  Also I have not seen this be a problem.  I have seen enough, lithe, sinewy, slender, etc., to choke a horse.   Sometimes I *want* a generic, (i.e. bland) sdesc.  Perhaps you shouldn't know anything about a person from just a glance.  If you want to know something about my character, interact.   In truth it's probably a moot point, because people rarely see my sdesc.    :wink:

[The Dude]

I have seen enough, lithe, sinewy, slender, etc., to choke a horse.

Yes, I'm sure you have - so have I. Common words are not my complaint, and I'd venture to guess they aren't the Urchin's either. Uninformative sdescs that do not, in fact, describe your character to me hardly at all, are.

Any of those traits you listed on any given person are far, far more noticeable to people all around you - especially those farther away - than the fact that your eyes are brown and I'd be clueless, amoeba, how you could possibly disagree with that - (Edit) unless, of course, I was right in your face, all of the time.

On an unrelated note, John is a goof.

[Marauder Moe]

The sdesc is simply an OOC string that provides a unique identifier for a character.  If you want to see more detail, JUST LOOK AT THE PERSON!  You can't be expected to paint a complete picture with 35 characters, thats what the main description is for.

I have no problem with people who put eyes in their sdescs.  I've done it myself.

If you see "the brown-eyed, big-nosed man" off in the distance, just ignore it.  You don't have to be a newbie and turn to your sergeant saying "Look sarge, there's a guy with brown eyes and a big old nose off to the west!"  If your character recognizes said person, it isn't neccesarily because the text tells you that you see his eyes and his nose.  Really, you're seeing everything else about him at the same time, just from far away.

[Cindrak]

And other people, myself included disagree.  Sometimes plain is perfectly fine.

If you're X-haired and Y-eyed, and it's completely calculated on your part, and you don't mind looking like everyone else, more power to you.

And the disagreement is...?

[The Slovenly Urchin]

The sdesc is simply an OOC string that provides a unique identifier for a character.  If you want to see more detail, JUST LOOK AT THE PERSON!  You can't be expected to paint a complete picture with 35 characters, thats what the main description is for.

You're missing the point. I'm just urging some creativity. I'm not expecting you to compress your whole mdesc into your sdesc. But you might be surprised how much you can evoke with a few well-chosen words...

By the way, it's not necessarily the case that bland characters have to have bland sdescs. Even if you're describing someone who's bland, you can describe their blandness well. Sure, "the brown haired, blue eyed man" will make me assume you're uninteresting, but "the chinless, droopy dullard" will at least get a smile of appreciation from me, the player, even as I ignore you IC.

-TSU

[amoeba]

Any of those traits you listed on any given person are far, far more noticeable to people all around you - especially those farther away - than the fact that your eyes are brown and I'd be clueless, amoeba, how you could possibly disagree with that - (Edit) unless, of course, I was right in your face, all of the time.

I can't believe I let myself get sucked into such a trivial arguement. That being said let me summerize my point of view on this.  

1. I doubt it's that serious a problem.  Newbies tend to pick the simplistic brown-haired, blue-eyed man because it's simple, and they haven't practiced a lot with different variations.  If you take them out of the arguement, are there really so many "bland" descriptions as to draw this kind of response?

2.  There is a base difference in your premise as to what should be in a sdesc as with me.  Correct me if I am mistaken, but your contention is that sdesc should only contain things that can be seen from a distance. Generally that will always mean body type descriptors.   As by your narrowed definition the face would be off limits.    It is my contention that sdesc's are an ooc construct meant to convey your most prominent feature,  the distance you are from a person notwithstanding.  Truth is from three leagues away,  the person would be a blob, you would have a hard time distinguishing as to if they were male or female often times.   So now that I have "clued" you in to my point of view,  in *many* cases the eyes are the "most"    noticable feature.  Take for instance this person: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/100best/storyA_story.html.  Now create a sdesc for her that does not include the eys.   It falls short doesn't it?  It is my contention that limiting a sdesc to those attributes only noticable from a distance is well, limiting.

3. I find that lecuring people on thier lack of creativity to be a touchy area.  Creativity is a personal thing, it takes time and practice.  I would rather people put thier energies into  improving thier own level of creativity and serve as an example.  Now it would be different if someone posted "how can I get away from these bland sdesc's" but thats not what happened here is it?

[Marauder Moe]

Ok, fine, nothing wrong with creativity.  However, you CAN be a good roleplayer without pretty sdescs/descs/emotes.  Having those things doesn't neccesarily make you a better roleplayer either.  As long as you're not pushing that view, I guess I don't see anything wrong with your message.

[Elgiva]

3. I find that lecuring people on thier lack of creativity to be a touchy area.  Creativity is a personal thing, it takes time and practice.  I would rather people put thier energies into  improving thier own level of creativity and serve as an example.  Now it would be different if someone posted "how can I get away from these bland sdesc's" but thats not what happened here is it?

[The Slovenly Urchin]

3. I find that lecuring people on thier lack of creativity to be a touchy area.  Creativity is a personal thing, it takes time and practice.  I would rather people put thier energies into  improving thier own level of creativity and serve as an example.  Now it would be different if someone posted "how can I get away from these bland sdesc's" but thats not what happened here is it?

I can see I've stepped on some toes here, and that was not my intention. It's not that I don't think people have the creativity (in fact I know the opposite to be true, having played around so many inventive roleplayers here), it's that I don't think it's occurred to some people to apply that creativity to their sdescs. I didn't just snipe, I posted suggestions. To me, that's constructive and nothing to take offense at.

-TSU

[The Dude]

The picture you posted was directly of someone's face looking straight into a camera, amoeba. Yes, if I'm standing a foot away from you and you're looking straight at me with me looking straight back I'm going to notice your eyes. That's a pretty intimate situation.

Most times, not everyone you come across will be near enough to determine an eye color, nor may they be even facing you, or you them. Sdescs aren't supposed to be a replacement for full descs. They're supposed to be the most generalistic qualities you might catch of a person, say, out the corner of your eye - something anyone would notice and in a way identify them with. A plain eye color, to me, just doesn't fit that kind of bill. Of many of the people closest to me in my own life, I probably couldn't describe a single one of their eye colors well enough to really identify them through it.

The only exception might be a woman I know with mismatched eyes, which DOES really stand out when you're looking at her face (kinda strange actually), but not so much even from across, say, a single rather average-sized living room with just us two in it, and her looking directly at me. The fact that she's an older, pretty frail-looking, short little tan-skinned lady with long platinum-blonde hair all stands out well before even those really strange eyes of hers.

That said, I've kinda drifted off track with the whole eye thing. It's just a pet peeve I guess.

Ok, fine, nothing wrong with creativity. However, you CAN be a good roleplayer without pretty sdescs/descs/emotes. Having those things doesn't neccesarily make you a better roleplayer either.

I agree entirely, and as far as I can tell we all do. But if you care to show me more than two colors in an sdesc (both of which could go completely to waste by something as simple as a helmet), I do really appreciate it.

[Marauder Moe]

Why would they go to waste?  As I and other have said, sdescs are mostly an OOC way to recognize a character.

[amoeba]

The picture you posted was directly of someone's face looking straight into a camera, amoeba.

I know this.

They're supposed to be the most generalistic qualities you might catch of a person, say, out the corner of your eye - something anyone would notice and in a way identify them with.

It is my contention that sdesc's are an ooc construct meant to convey your most prominent feature, the distance you are from a person notwithstanding.

A difference of opinion.