Issue of Merchants and sub-guilds with related skills

[Incognito]

I've put in some thought on this subject, and am gonna try to put the idea into as clear words as possible.

After studying the sub-guilds - which have basically been introduced to "round up" or "round off" a PC - I have found that TOO many of the sub-guilds are breaching into the territory of the Merchant Guild.

To clarify further - if you study each sub-guild, and compare them to the basic guilds, you will find that none of the sub-guilds have the "main skills" of their respective parent guilds.

For example, there's no sub-guild which has backstab or there's no subguild which has pick, or peek etc etc. Magicker classes dont even figure into this issue!

So what does that leave us with? A whole bunch of sub-guilds which are basically "raping" (pardon me for using such harsh language) the Merchant Guild, and it's IC importance.

First, the collection of the "crafter-type sub-guilds" namely - Armormaker, General Crafter, Jeweler, Stonecrafter, Tailor, Tinker and Weaponcrafter.

And then, to make matters worse, the "nomad-type sub-guilds" namely - Caravan Guide, House Servant and Nomad.

Between all of these sub-guilds, almost all of the skills which are supposed to be unique to the Merchant Guild, can be made available to PCs of other Guilds.

It really nags me that the Merchant Guild - which is already a niche role in itself is being diluted and it's importance is really at stake, by spreading out almost all of the "main skills" of this guild to other sub-guilds.

Most folks probably think "Why should I play a merchant, when I can play any other Guild, and choose one of the sub-guilds which have the merchant skills?"

I haven't even mentioned about the other Guilds and Races who get the Merchant Guild skills as "innate" skills.

I love playing merchants. Even though it's a hard Guild to play, as compared to others, I enjoy it, due to its uniqueness. I am saddened that the sub-guilds have leeched into that special uniqueness.

I would strongly suggest removal of haggle and piloting from all sub-guilds to begin with. Also, it would not be out of proportion, to decrease the crafting skill levels, of the crafting-type sub-guilds.

I would go a little further, and request the Merchant Guild to be beefed up in some other manner, to compensate its diminishing importance in the OOC sense.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Crafting things, in a world such as this, is a more basic skill than fighting is. Therefore, the current manner of sub-guilds containing crafting skills is realistic.

[Tamarin]

Yes, but the merchant guild gets -all- of these skills.  It's pretty difficult to make a living when you can only craft one or two types of things.  You make lots of your wares, but the stores don't buy them all because they've got too much.  A true merchant, on the other hand, can make a little of everything.

[Incognito]

If that is the case, then why can't Merchants become decent fighters too?

[Larrath]

I am against this.

Merchants don't only get crafting skills.  Merchants start with a lot of extra money, they get their own freaking language, get haggle and are practically the only ones with a good Value skill (which is useful for more than just telling costs, by the way), and they get to eventually have just about every crafting skill, and they get to be the best at all of them.

A stonecrafter or jeweler might get stuck with just a handful of crafting items that they can really make a profit of, and have to compete with everyone else for the handful of, say, obsidian chunks left in the shops.  A merchant, on the other hand, would be able to just pick up whatever and turn it into a valuable item.


Finally, Merchant is a difficult guild because it requires cunning and the ability to make friends and contacts.  When it is played correctly, however, and its abilities are brought into good use, they can leave everyone waiting in the dust.
Someone is giving your merchant too much competition?  Bribe a templar and have them thrown into the Arena, or hire an Assassin artist and have them killed!

Merchants already get the tremendous advantage of being able to make custom items.  They don't need more help, and I don't think crafting subguilds are all that overpowered either.

[Larrath]

I don't see why merchants need any fighting skills, either.  They can just hire someone to do their fighting for them.  No one guild should be able to do everything.

Also, why is it that this poll lacks an option that says "I don't think Merchants are underpowered in the least and I do play them"?

[Maybe42or54]

Yes. Though you can rip off a merchant of it's subguilds.

You don't even touch on the massive amounts of money they can make.

[Marauder Moe]

Aren't subguild crafting skills capped much lower than merchant crafting skills?  That means that there are things that a merchant can craft that the matching subguild can't.

Also, believe it or not, there's good reason for a merchant to take a crafting subguild.  It lets them start out in a certain profession without having to waste a lot of time and money trying to branch the right skills.

[Incognito]

I don't see why merchants need any fighting skills, either.  They can just hire someone to do their fighting for them.  No one guild should be able to do everything.

The issue is not about any guild being able to do everything........

Its more an OOC concept with regards to the game, and the Merchant Guild......

Haggle, Value, Pilot and the crafting skills, are all that the Merchant Guild gets......

One way or another all of these skills are aquirable via various appropriate sub-guilds......

On the other hand, this is not the case with the "main skills" of most other Guilds......

Crafting things, in a world such as this, is a more basic skill than fighting is. Therefore, the current manner of sub-guilds containing crafting skills is realistic.

Its a cruel world and a violent lifestyle on Zalanthas, unless you're in one of the city-states, and then too, some parts of those cities are also violent.

So why is crafting more basic than fighting on Zalanthas?

[Elgiva]

I believe there are some crafting skills which are unable to get with a subguild but which are possible to get during playing a merchant.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Its a cruel world and a violent lifestyle on Zalanthas, unless you're in one of the city-states, and then too, some parts of those cities are also violent.

So why is crafting more basic than fighting on Zalanthas?

Crafting things begins at an elementary level. Fighting off jakals without a stick is a very hard thing to do. Making that stick pointy improves your chances even more. In that brief thought, you have used the spearcrafting skill, to make a stick into a spear. Improving on the spear of course is a natural next step.

Or, what about that water? Gotta have it, and you obviously can't camp next to the pool and expect to survive, can you? So, make a skin, or something like a bowl to hold water in.

What about housing, or tents, or any of those things you have to have to survive not only the outdoors, but the weather?

This is why I see crafting as a much more important skill than fighting. Crafting gives you the tools to do whatever it is that you do. That's why Merchants are more important than fighters, in the grand scheme of things. They make the things that make the world go around.

As to why crafting in the limited sub-guild aspect is a skill you can expect many to have, see my above examples.

And I should have said advanced fighting skills, not just fighting.

[Maybe42or54]

Skills a merchant gets and a subguild doesn't.
From helpfiles.

Instrument making.
Tent making.
Wagon making.


Those sound good to you?

[Sanvean]

Aren't subguild crafting skills capped much lower than merchant crafting skills? That means that there are things that a merchant can craft that the matching subguild can't.

Yep.  There is no case where a subguild skill ends up being higher than a merchant one, and usually it's a pretty big gap.  There are also a number of crafting skills available only to merchants.

[Angela Christine]

Slant your polls much?    Every answer assumes that merchants are not powerful, but merchants ARE powerful.  A merchant can scoff at all the crafting subguilds, because none of them will ever master their single crafts.  A stonecrafter can never become a Master stonecrafter unless he is also a merchant.  That means that there will be things the dabbler will never become skilled enough to make.  Master craftsmen, ie merchants, are also the only ones allowed to design new unique items now and only once per month.  There are also crafts that are not available to any subguild, like tent making and wagon making, that you can only get with a merchant.  From what I've seen the bartering ability of subguilds doesn't come anywhere near that of a true merchant, those guys can get HUGE discounts.  After a few skill branches a merhcant can use almost anything that they find foraging, very little material is wasted, so they can spend less time foraging.

Merchants are rare, but there are some good reasons for that.

1.  Nobody likes being weak.  You don't plan to get into fights, but the idea that some newbie pickpocket could kick your ass is discouraging.  And you basically will never get better.  You could join the Byn and 10 years down the road your merchant will still be getting his ass kicked around the sparring ring by newbie warriors.  This is mostly a problem of perception and habit, most of us have played CRPGs, online RPGs or P&P games where combat skill was a very important part of every character -- even the wimpy magic-users would try to optimise their equipment and skills for combat.

2.  The materials crunch.  You blow through your newbie money, and now you have no materials.  Do you go out alone to forage, knowing that a pissed off tregil could kill you?  Try to get a buddy to forage with you, and hope that he doesn't use his vastly superior combat ability to kill you once you are out of the gates?  Hire people to forage for you, then sit on your thumb waiting to see if they ever come back?  Join a clan, and hope that the PCs in charge of gathering materials gather enough, and that they don't die or get bored, because your clan rules likely prohibit you from going out alone.  With a clan or without one, merchants can blow through materials in no time flat.  It takes a while to be making enough profit from a craft that you can finance your own materials.

3.  Craftaphobia.  Some people don't like crafting, or don't like having to constantly worry about whether they are spam-crafting or not emoting enough.    Crafting alone in your room gets dull pretty fast, but if you craft in public you somehow aquire the duty to entertain any PCs that happen to be nearby, or else they will accuse you of spam-crafting.  Hunters don't have to worry about it, they only have to impress/placate the staff, but people who use code around other PCs have to worry constantly about their performance.  The self-appointed RP police are pretty judgmental.  

4.  Geographic limitations.  It is much, much easier to play a merchant in Tuluk than it is anywhere else, simply because half of the merchant's starting crafts are very difficult to use without access to the forest.  I'd like it if there were two merchant guilds: the current (northern) merchant guild, and a southern merchant guild that would have wood-dependant crafts like arrowmaking, lumberjacking and woodworking appear much deeper into the skill tree, and in return have a couple non-wood crafts appear earlier.  As it is, playing a southern merchant is very challenging.

To be successfull using code the merchant either has to do a lot of crafting, which can be dull (just how many ways can you emote carving a bone into a few bone needles, or a block of wood into a tembo statuette?) or they have to travel and make their money by bartering their way to profitable trade routes, which is very, very dangerous.  

The subcrafters haven't been an issue when I've played a merchant.  It is true that I am more likely to make a travelling trader be a ranger than a merchant, but that would be true even without subguilds, because a newbie ranger is much more suited to travelling between the cities than a newbie merchant.  If carts or the sort of covered wagons used by settlers and gypsies were available and affordable, then merchants would have the mobility a dune trader needs.  But by the time a merchant can make, buy or rent a small wagon he is already skilled and rich.  There is no way to get a "cheap" cart, even in the north where wood is relatively abundant.  I'm not talking a huge multi-room rolling monstrosity, but a wagon that would carry about as much as 2-3 kanks and would need to be pulled by 1, 2 or 4 kanks.  Part of the problem is that every wagon needs a pricy security system, because they are left "unattended" when the owner's PC logs out, even if he logs out inside the wagon.   Maybe major public wagon yards could be like public stables, and lock the wagon away keeping it safe but unaccessable until you remove it, then the carts themselves could have cheap "privacy" locks or no locks at all, making it nearly as easy for bandits in the wilderness to rob a cart as it is to rob a rider.  What a carter gains in imediate security he loses in visibility, from inside a wagon you can only look "out" so you can't see what is comming up ahead or following behind.  But there is the advantage that if there is a sudden blinding storm you can park your cart, and hunker down inside to wait it out rather than having to sit in the storm itself.  


The crafting subclasses make nice hobbies and disguises, but they are no competition for a real merchant.


Angela Christine

[Ghost]

In this sense...

Subguild "thief" buys a lot of the pickpocket guild.

Subguild "hunter" buys a lot of the ranger guild.

Subguild "Thug".. You know you can attach it to a fighting class and call it assassin.

A combination of seven subguilds buy most of the merchant guild?  So what?  No single character can have all of them.  But just taking the thief subguild you rape the pickpocket guild more than any single crafter sub rapes the merchant guild.

No need to point out, merchants have other skills besides crafting even.

[PantoufleUNLOGGED]

Subguild crafters cannot become "Master Crafters" according to the new policy regarding custom item requests.  I think that's a pretty distinct advantage.  If you want your weaopnsmith buddy to craft you a neat, custom designed bejweled dagger, you better hope he's guild_merchant and not just a subguild weapon crafter.  Why?  Because subguild crafters are not "professionals", nor will they ever be, ergo the prefix 'sub'.

Subguild crafters also only have access to a handful of crafting skills, at best, whereas guild_merchant can, eventually, have access to every single one.  Thus you can imagine how large a "Maxxed" Merchant's skill list is.  

As well, merchants are quite simply a power house for acquiring money, moreso than any other guild.  They are excellent barterers.  Subguild barterers just don't compare.  This isn't IC info, it's common sense -- that's like hoping your subguild mercenary can fight as proficiently as a guild_warrior!

And that's just a few of the advantages guild_merchants have over any of their inferior subguild counterparts.  Trust me, none of the crafting subguilds come close to guild_merchant.

[Xygax]

The great irony of this thread, of course, is that only a day or two ago someone started a thread complaining about how lackluster the combat systems are, and how the whole world is populated with political types.  The merchant (even an independent one) is a brilliant political character, and, played right, can become more powerful by far than even the brawniest of pure warriors.

Unfortunately, yes, fledgling merchants start out a wee bit vulnerable.  All your starting 'sid isn't going to help you much if you immediately wander out into the wilds hunting halflings, or storm through the nearest Kadian shop buying every frilly, lacy, silver-stitched garment you can get your grubby newbie paws on.  If you want power, you'll have to plan for it.

The other thing is....  power and glory aren't everything.

A couple years ago, I felt the same way about the class as this original poster, and so I set out to prove myself right by creating a gritty, desperate, hungry merchant-type and see how far I could advance him in the world (and, admittedly, in his skills: I was and still am fascinated by Arm's crafting systems).  The day he died, he died travelling the north road with a bag of trade-goods and personal items worth thousands of coins (and had quite a bit more in the bank), and was being guarded by one of the strongest warrior PCs the game has ever seen (alas, bad luck and a bad decision will still get you killed, no matter how tough your bodyguard is...  sometimes I still load that warrior PC friend up on the testport and try him out against mekillots bare-handed -- he lives longer than you'd expect).  I had a lot of fun playing that merchant, and he wasn't necessarily widely known, nor even extremely powerful (he was resourceful and connected in his own limited way, but as an independent it is more difficult to mark out huge territory and vast power), and he was also one of my more real, believable characters, I like to think.

He remained gritty, desperate and hungry throughout his life, and I did have fun exploring his crafting skills (and exploring the world trying to feed them and profit by them), and he really wasn't much of a tavern-sitter, either.  I feel that the tavern-sitting is worth a mention, since a lot of people assume merchants are doomed to tavern-sit.

The trick to surviving on Arm is knowing when and how to run away, and that's the case for the strongest warriors and the feeblest merchants, and if you know those tricks as they suit your class, you can live a long time doing anything.

-- X

[Bestatte]

I don't know if I'll ever play a merchant *class* character, though I've had many merchant-personality characters.

I'd rather see the merchant class renamed "Master Crafter" class, because it just fits better and is more truthful.

For me, the notion of having dozens of possible craft skills on my list, is pointless.

Seeing armorsmithing on my list and knowing I can some day make custom stuff doesn't give me a thrill -at all- if I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in armorsmithing. I'd rather be a hunter type, who studies the bows I use when I go hunting, and ultimately become a master bowyer.

Unfortunately that isn't an option in Armageddon, though I really wish it was.

[Agent_137]

That was me complaining about the politickers, Xygax.

My next character will be a merchant, for the record. I'm trying to work my way through the guilds. (Counter-strike gets in the way, though. So does college, and a girlfriend, and alcohol.)

I refuse to vote in the poll. I would choose this option, if it existed:

"I've never played a merchant, but from what it looks like, they could be powerful if played right, just like every other guild. The only thing is they require more brainwork to become powerful. More role-play and politicking and less just straight practicing your skills."

On other news:

What does THIS mean???

I still load that warrior PC friend up on the testport and try him out . . .

Do you have copies of characters saved before they die? :O Was he just stored? :O omgomgomg.

[Incognito]

Slant your polls much?   :P  

Angela Christine

Admittedly, the poll options were sarcastically worded, and meant to be more in a lighter mood than taken seriously ;)


Additionally, in response to Maybe42or54's post, there _is_ another sub-guild which is supposed to get the Instrument_making skill. I guess that just leaves Tentmaking and Wagonmaking.

And since I'm posting on this thread again, I'll take another moment to highlight my point.

I agree that realistically speaking, folks on Zalanthas would end up learning one or two crafting skills. I also agree that those folks would never be as skilled as merchants.

What I've been trying to emphasize is, that it could and should work in the reverse direction too, i.e. that merchants who work in hostile environments like the rinth, or are dune traders, would also have developed a good amount of self-defense, and combat skills, so why not give merchants a chance to choose some sort a sub-guild which will "round them off" too?

Maybe a special sub-guild which can be only chosen by the Merchant Guild, which will give them decent combat capabilities, and help them be a little more self-reliant?

Or are we trying to say here that merchants, by rule, on Zalanthas, are automatically a wimpy set of people, who will never learn to defend themselves, or even go out hunting to gather their own materials.

[Mook]

Maybe a special sub-guild which can be only chosen by the Merchant Guild, which will give them decent combat capabilities, and help them be a little more self-reliant?

Or are we trying to say here that merchants, by rule, on Zalanthas, are automatically a wimpy set of people, who will never learn to defend themselves, or even go out hunting to gather their own materials.

Subguilds hunter/archer/possibly thug.
Problem solved.

[da mitey warrior]

Merchants are a million times better at crafting than any subguilder.  They start off better, they learn faster, they max out higher.  They can craft the high-level difficulty items that no one else can.  They can design their own items.  They also barter much better than anyone else so they can buy materials cheaper and sell goods for more.  There's really no comparison.  A smart merchant with little to no risk to himself can make massive amounts of money without every leaving the city.  

They can even use all these subguilds themselves to get a headstart on everyone else.  Want to be the ultimate jeweler?  Merchant/jeweler and you can make feather rings from day one.  Or Armorcrafting and bandaging, which are both very hard to branch into as a merchant, starting with those skills is a real boon.

Merchants are the ultimate social character.  Scan, listen, barter, value, all are super duper.  They are overpowered if anything, the only thing that stops merchants from dominating is that people don't like being weak combat-wise.

[Ghost]

They are overpowered if anything, the only thing that stops merchants from dominating is that people don't like being weak combat-wise.

.... And that some people do not like the crafting idea at all.

[Bestatte]

From http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#merchant

Merchant

Merchants are the blood which binds the world together, the carriers of desperately needed goods from one land to another. Usually descendants of the old Dune Traders, merchants quickly learn the ways of the desert, the most profitable trade routes, and possess a handy charm for making friends of even the bitterest templar.

Merchants possess the ability to ride animals and pilot the argosies that cross the lands between villages and cities. They are also skilled at guessing an object's value, getting excellent prices from all but the stingiest traders, and noticing every detail around them.

While faced with a hard life, merchants are often the richest people in any given city-state. The most sure way to find work as a merchant is to travel widely, joining caravans at every opportunity. Whenever he can, a merchant ought to find a village's or a city's traders and learn the prices of things there. By compiling this knowlege (knowing true object costs can be invaluable in doing this), the merchant can devise superior trade routes and make a great deal of money.

I'm wondering if a lot of newer players aren't picking merchant for their primary guild because it doesn't mention ANYWHERE in the official description that they have -any- craft skills at all?

Maybe a mention should be included..like..

The merchant usually uses the items he has crafted himself in his trade, and when he isn't selling products, he is often found making them. Some merchants will focus on one type of crafting or another, while others might dabble in a myriad of raw materials to create a wider variety of goods to trade. So driven by profits is the merchant, that he might strive to become a Master Crafter, the elite of the elite in the world of crafting.

or something like that.

[wizturbo]

Not a bad idea Bestatte.

[Gaare]

/Detrail/

I totally agree with Bestatte.  After usual first Byn character, as a nOOb I decided to play a merchant. I did not use any of my crafter skills rather than the ones I picked from subclass, because simply I did not know merchants are the masters of crafting.. Heh.

[LBO]

I think that the helpfile in General Information / Guilds has not been updated in line with the helpfile Guild_Merchant which has the additional sentence:

Furthermore, they have great talent in many forms of crafting, from simple cups to intricate forms of weaponry.

[Maybe42or54]

Usually descendants of the old Dune Traders, merchants quickly learn the ways of the desert, the most profitable trade routes, and possess a handy charm for making friends of even the most bitter templar.

And I don't like that because it implies, to me, that merchant is a job you are either born with or aren't born with.

[Angela Christine]

Usually descendants of the old Dune Traders, merchants quickly learn the ways of the desert, the most profitable trade routes, and possess a handy charm for making friends of even the most bitter templar.

And I don't like that because it implies, to me, that merchant is a job you are either born with or aren't born with.

But isn't that the way skilled trades are usually passed on in societies without formal schooling?  You are a barber, stonemason, dentist, farmer, weaver, etc. because that is what your mom, dad, uncle, grandparent, etc. was, and s/he taught you the trade.  You CAN go against the flow, decide "I don't want to turn planks into chests for the rest of my life, I want to be a bard" or whatever, but the usual thing is to go into the family buisness because as a kid you get trained for free while you help out the family.  That's why people have family names like Miller, Smith, and Carter, because at some point their ancestors were millers, smiths or carters.

Most people with the merchant guild probably come from families with a lot of merchants, that is how they learned the merchant starting skills.  That doesn't mean your PC has to be from a merchant family, anymore than your Rebel PC has to be old enough to have been a member of The Rebellion, or your Scavenger PC has to be from the ruins of Tuluk.  The doc gives a likely explanation of how you got those skills and where people with those skills are most likely to fit into the world, but it isn't a straight-jacket.

[Angela Christine]

FAQ 12

How common are the various guilds?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There are sixteen guilds in Armageddon currently. These guilds are listed, in approximate order of frequency, below (the most commonly encountered guild is listed first).


Warriors:
The guild of warriors is a typically honourable crowd, whose chief pursuit is that of a good fight.


Rangers:
Desert wanderers, demiwarriors, who have a keen sense of direction and who spend much of their time hunting and travelling.


Pickpockets:
Con artists, excellent thieves, who can as easily steal the sword from your side as they can walk down the street.


Burglars:
Experts at breaking-and-entering, who plunder the homes of the wealthy or rob tombs of the long dead.


Assassins:
Hired killers, masters of the first strike, who are able to deal quick deadly blows from the shadows.


Merchants:
Those that deal in every-day trade, who are much quicker to the tongue, than a blade.


Templars:
The warrior-priests of the city-states, who are the embodiment of the law.

Water Elementalists:
Spellcasters with the power over life and death, who are the most respected and honoured among the mages.


Stone Elementalists:
Solid, solitary, these mages are able to call up the very strength of the earth for protection.


Wind Elementalists:
Mages of the air, adept at moving unseen and travelling great distances with the utterance of a spell.


Sun Elementalists:
Deadly, fierce combat-mages whose magicks sear the very life from the bones of their enemies.


Lightning Elementalists:
Mages of lightning, able to maneuver the paths of energy in quick blasts.


Shadow Elementalists:
Secretive, elusive, mages that use the shadows in their struggle against Suk-krath.


Void Elementalists:
Hated universally, elementalists of Nilaz strive to oppose all the elements.


Psionicists:
Mindbenders that are able to manipulate the Way to serve their designs.


Sorcerers:
Life-draining mages who gamble away health for power in the pursuit of mastery over magick.

Maybe there isn't a shortage of merchants at all.  According to this Warriors, Rangers, Pickpockets, Burglars, and Assassins are each supposed to be more common than Merchants.  Basically all the non-magickal guilds are supposed to be more common than Merchants.


Angela Christine

[Agent_137]

Subguilds hunter/archer/possibly thug.
Problem solved.

Those don't really give much in the way of combat, honestly, at least not in the way that merchants are really lacking:

Archers know all the ins and outs of all forms of missile weapons, bows, slings and crossbows. They are also crafters who know not only how to make their weapons, but also make use of feathers left over from constructing arrows.

Hunters, who have made their living hunting, are generally good at tracking their prey, as well as skinning it. They also have the ability to shoot their prey from a distance using the arrows that they created.

Thugs are well-used to the use of brute force, able to effectively kick an opponent in combat, as well as how to effectively knock out a target. However, they also know how to take to their heels when needed.

[/size]

Those give a little more survivability, but are more suited to rounding out a warrior or other guild than a merchant. Merchants are hopelessly reduced to talkers currently. This being bad or good is very debateable.

Personally, I think a combatish subguild to help round out the non-combat primary guilds would be nice. Hell, I'm in great favor of more subguilds in general. This would be a good place to start.

off the cuff subguild ideas:
Knife-fighter
Swordsman
Shield and spearman
Dunesman

These combat subguilds would give about the same bonus as non-combat subguilds give, of course. The burglar knife-fighter would never equal a warrior of equal time input bearing a knife, but he'd certainly be better off than the next burglar down the line, or some pickpocket/thug making a failed attempt at clobbering him.

I like the dunesman idea, though I haven't really thought it out at all. Just something to give those non-rangers who intend to spend a goodly amount of time in the desert. Though then people will want dunesmen to have the ability to go through storms without ranger help, and they'll  think that because they're a merchant/dunesman they don't need to hire any one to help them, etc. And that would get messy. like I said, I haven't really thought out that idea.

Basically, I think more subguilds would be great, and that a few should be combat oriented the way many subguilds are craft oriented.

[wizturbo]

Agent, while at first glance I would agree with you, with the addition of magickers though NO.  BIG NO.  Add combat ability to a magicker, and your going to have a lot of trouble on your hands.

[Marauder Moe]

Magickers with combat subguilds... hehehe... hehe... yikes.  :shock:

If you want to play a merchanty (social) character with some combat skills, be a burglar with a crafting subguild.

Though, I do think that either the staff needs to change Cavalish to only be a skill you get when special app'ing a merchant family member (I heard one of the imms mention this one) OR add a subguild that gives Cavalish as a skill.

[wizturbo]

Magickers with combat subguilds... hehehe... hehe... yikes.  :shock:

If you want to play a merchanty (social) character with some combat skills, be a burglar with a crafting subguild.

Though, I do think that either the staff needs to change Cavalish to only be a skill you get when special app'ing a merchant family member (I heard one of the imms mention this one) OR add a subguild that gives Cavalish as a skill.

I disagree.  If you need cavilish that badly, special app the character to have it added and give ample justification.  The value of the language is that it is well guarded, and not many people know it.

[Marauder Moe]

Every guild_merchant knows it.  As I said, it should be one way or another, depending on how the staff thinks the language should fit in the world.  If it's supposed to be common and everyone and their uncle Amos who owns a shop can speak it, then it should be in a subguild too.  If its something that usually only the great merchant houses speak, then it should be acquired through the special application, not the guild (remove it from guild_merchant skill list).

[Anonymous]

1. I don't believe there is a need in new sub-guilds unless new skills are to be implemented.
2. I don't believe there is a need in new combat skills unless major revamp of combat system is planned.
3. I do believe some "social" skills are needed, so Agent (not some merchant family member necessary, just your basic administrator and organizer) might become a separate class with those unique skills while retaining some moderate fighting abilities and non-crafting mercantile skills.
4. Speaking of Cavalish, I'd like to see it or Bendune added to skill set of linguists (if to anyone's at all).

[The Dude]

Agent, while at first glance I would agree with you, with the addition of magickers though NO. BIG NO. Add combat ability to a magicker, and your going to have a lot of trouble on your hands.

By this logic we might as well remove half-giants and sorcerers and anything powerful.

This game isn't about class balance, it's about realism. Why would a person inclined toward magick be any more or less capable of learning swordsmanship than any other?

Being that the extent of subguild ability is quite limited anyway, I would agree with the addition of combat-based subguilds. We have crafting subguilds, we have thieving subguilds and we even have a few ranged-attack subguilds. Why not limited combat ones?

[wizturbo]

Agent, while at first glance I would agree with you, with the addition of magickers though NO. BIG NO. Add combat ability to a magicker, and your going to have a lot of trouble on your hands.

By this logic we might as well remove half-giants and sorcerers and anything powerful.

This game isn't about class balance, it's about realism. Why would a person inclined toward magick be any more or less capable of learning swordsmanship than any other?

If you want to be realistic, there should be no classes what so ever.  Everyone should be able to go learn sorcery, be a master warrior, pick pockets, open locks, and craft fine jewelry if they train to do all those things.  This is a game.  It is very balanced, despite some people's claims it is not.  You give magickers combat ability, and I guarantee you there's going to be problems.

In my experiences, magickers are extremely dangerous as it is, you give them the ability to wield weapons decently on top of that, and there will be game balance issues that will make people whine and whine, and probably with just cause.

[Ghost]

By this logic we might as well remove half-giants and sorcerers and anything powerful.

This game isn't about class balance, it's about realism. Why would a person inclined toward magick be any more or less capable of learning swordsmanship than any other?

Nah but there is a weakness for everyone.  Even the strongest halfgiant lacks sharp wits, and the strongest sorcerer lacks the swordplay.

This is not for balance.  But everything has a weakness.  Combining sword and magick though, it would be too perfect, and I believe, every nine magicker out of ten would pick that subguild.  Which does not sound too right to me.

[Maybe42or54]

I disagree.

I have never played a magicer, but then again, I only have enough karma to log back in everyonce in a while.

Since not all magickers are born knowing that they are magickers, I think they should be able to take up mediocre skills in fighting if they were in fact a fighter before they finally let them selves realize it.

[joyofdiscord]

In my perfect wonderful world where everything is exactly how I want it to be, and everyone does as I say, magicker classes (except sorcerers) are SUBGUILDS.  The same skill trees, but acquired as a subguild.  Crazy, you say?  Yes, it probably is, but here's my logic.   Magick isn't something people have a choice about.  It's either innate, or some wierd elemental event thrusts the powers upon them.  That magicker still might be practicing his wilderness survival skills or his thiefly abilities, before or after manifesting his powers, because that's more important to who she is.   Person first, magicker second, doncha know.  Sorcery is a path of study, so it's fine as a main class.

So, yes, this would mean elementalists could become one-hit-kill backstabbers and one-spell-kill Krathians at the same time.  So?  Magickers aren't intended to be "balanced", in the sense of having the same level of power.  They are balanced by being in the hands of responsible players, and that's what karma is for.  Besides, magickers do have a weakness: they are magickers and everyone hates them.  The main issue of believability I see is that if elemental magick happens to take a lot of practice and dedication to get better at, they wouldn't also be able to dedicate their lives to their main guild skills.

This would also completely do away with "Well, Jimbob is a complete loss with weapons, is about as stealthy as an inix, and can't sew a wristwrap to save his life.  Gee, I think he must have magic powers.".  Also, I think it would be much more creepy to find out that your Byn sparring partner or your thief sidekick is cursed with magickal powers.  I think that's the way it should be.  A magicker, who can successfully hide her powers, or who hasn't yet manifested, should be able to fit in the world in all the same ways as non-magickers, and I think that would really add to the atmosphere of the game.

Of course, this idea will never, never happen, not in a King's Age, but that's my dream.

[lazycritic]

That would be kinda nice. The thing about Zalanthas is that ICly, everyone should be suspect as a magicker. Right now it's blatantly obvious that only a few could even possibly be a magicker.

If magickers were a subguild tacked onto a main guild, Tuluk could take on some Inquisition-esque intrigue and become more intresting.

But it'll never happen. And it might be a bad idea. If it did happen, they couldn't be full elementalists.

[moab]

The problem is that we are guild based instead of skill based.  If we got rid of the guilds and allowed people to choose their skills (that would be capped based on your stats and IC opportunities for learning / practice) this (and many other) issues would be resolved.

[wizturbo]

The problem is that we are guild based instead of skill based.  If we got rid of the guilds and allowed people to choose their skills (that would be capped based on your stats and IC opportunities for learning / practice) this (and many other) issues would be resolved.

At the same time, a hundred other issues would pop up that could be worse.  These sorts of issues are never 100% perfect, its just the nature of the universe that each system has its benefits and disadvantages.  I happen to like the current system just because my 'twink' side really has little room to dream.  I spend all my time thinking about the -character- not the skills, because thinking about the skills is pointless, you choose your class, your subclass, and thats the extent of it.  

If you need a special skill addition to fit the -character- you can special app and request it.  The imm's are reasonable, if the character is well thought out but its needs stonecrafting to properly play the role, ask for it and you're likely to get it.

[The Dude]

The thing about Zalanthas is that ICly, everyone should be suspect as a magicker. Right now it's blatantly obvious that only a few could even possibly be a magicker.

And that exactly is what really detracts from the whole magicker thing, for me.

[Tamarin]

Why are we still debating this?  It's clear that merchants are a great class...In fact, I think it's clear to me that every class is a great class.  Every class has something that the other classes don't.  And even that's irrelevant, because it's what you do with it that counts.

[lazycritic]

Why are we still debating this? It's clear that merchants are a great class...In fact, I think it's clear to me that every class is a great class. Every class has something that the other classes don't. And even that's irrelevant, because it's what you do with it that counts.

What's "clear" to you is not clear to me. You may think it's clear to you, but don't assume that that your opinion applies to everyone else in the world. That's always a dangerous assumption. Since you asked, the reason this is being debated is that what's clear to you is not clear to all others - they aren't sure that merchants are a great class(personally, I think merchants are fine as they are).

And no, it's not irrelevant, because classes are OOCly limited in what they are capable of doing. You could make the argument that it's pointless to debate it because there's no other way to preserve balance - but you didn't(it's been made enough times, anyway).

[Anonymous]

Merchants (and I've played some - successfully and not so) are not an obviously good class.

The staff actually supports this when they make posts for certain roles.

How many times have you seen "Need a character for an important role, no magickers please."

The staff actually has to artifically support merchant characters because all the other classes could pretty much do what a merchant does.  After all - what does a merchant do:

1. Buys
2. Sells
3. Networks
4. Organizes
5. Speaks a nifty language
6. Pilots a wagon
7. Crafts

If the staff didn't require the use of merchant / merchant-like characters for some roles, I bet you would see less of them.

The requirement for many clan-heads or other leadership characters to be one of warrior, merchant, ranger (with a preference for the first two) really points to a problem, doesn't it?

I like the idea of merchant characters - but I only play them if I have to (required for the role by an Imm) or if I want access to nifty expert crafting skills.

Otherwise my ranger is going to be able get the supplies he needs, my magicker is going to be able to buy and sell the stuff he finds and my sorcerer is going to be able to network just fine.

The one benefit of merchant class is that if forces you to rely on others to get things done and that's an advantage for those who can't delegate very well.

I've often considered applying for a skill-less character (with the exception of sirilish and see how far I get.  Hrm.

[Tamarin]

My point, SIR, is that the classes don't matter.  This is a ROLEPLAY game.  Ask any staff and they will tell you that the most powerful characters in game history have been good roleplayers, not characters with maxxed skills.  It is, quite literally, possible to conquer the known world without ever using your coded skills.

That is the point, and if you don't GET that, I'm not going to bother explaining it any further to you.

[Anonymous]

My point, SIR, is that the classes don't matter.  This is a ROLEPLAY game.

While we are at it, let's just get rid of all coded mechanics since this is a ROLEPLAY game.

Armageddon strikes a balance between freeform roleplaying like mushes or whatever and hack and slash muds.  Just because it's a ROLEPLAY game doesn't mean discussion of mechanics and classes issues means the person doesn't 'get it'.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled condescension.

[moab]

My point, SIR, is that the classes don't matter.  This is a ROLEPLAY game.  Ask any staff and they will tell you that the most powerful characters in game history have been good roleplayers, not characters with maxxed skills.  It is, quite literally, possible to conquer the known world without ever using your coded skills.

That is the point, and if you don't GET that, I'm not going to bother explaining it any further to you.

I certainly agree with that - however - how sweet is that maxxed mage when he's also an awesome rper, eh?  I didn't mean to disagree at all.

However, class does indeed matter.  Your indy merchant gets stuck out in the desert because he gets lost in a sandstorm.  Never mind his backgroun says he spend his entire first twenty years of life living in the desert, hand to mouth until apprenticing to some other desert merchant and learning merchanting skills.

In the current scheme you are helpless without a friend.

In a better scheme, your character would have some points in desert survival (or whatever) and some in merchanting and might have a better chance of making it out alive.

This goes along with the whole "rangers can camp, but wilderness warriors can not."  The system of classes (merchant included) is gravely flawed and you know it.

What - so I have to be able to become an expert archer and give up the freedom to excel my parry just so I can quit in the wilderness?

It just don't make no sense, joe.  :-D

[Anonymous]

I've always thought some sort of grouped skill selection system trumps classes, though balance is certainly an issue.  I don't expect it's going to change, though, the class system has been working well enough for a decade now.

Regardless by grouped I mean that in order to balance things out a number of skills are grouped together with the player only able to select a given number from that group.  Something like group A consisting of hide, sneak, backstab, sap, poison, disarm, kick, bash, parry, dual wield, shield use, with only 3 being selectable at chargen or something.  Another group might have language skills, barter, value, scan, listen, search, etc, with only 3 selectable from there.  Then a third group consisting of magic, weapons or trade, with each branching off from there and only one of those categories being selectable by a character.

The idea is to avoid the sneaking, hiding, bashing, sapping, backstabbing, flame-throwing warrior but still allow for some uniqueness between characters.  I suppose the subclass system does this to some degree, but I'd like picking skills in some balanced manner better.

[moab]

I agree, CRW, it isn't likely to change - too much code involved, I imagine.
But unless we're going to change, discussions about class are really rather silly.  :-D

[Tamarin]

I certainly agree with that - however - how sweet is that maxxed mage when he's also an awesome rper, eh?  I didn't mean to disagree at all.

Of course.

However, class does indeed matter.  Your indy merchant gets stuck out in the desert because he gets lost in a sandstorm.  Never mind his backgroun says he spend his entire first twenty years of life living in the desert, hand to mouth until apprenticing to some other desert merchant and learning merchanting skills.

If this happens to your merchant, then your merchant is a fucking idiot.  And really, anyone who spends twenty years in the desert isn't going to be a merchant.  They're most likely going to be a ranger.  Coin doesn't mean shit in the desert for the most part, and the amount of crap a merchant has to lug around would be discarded in the desert.

In the current scheme you are helpless without a friend.

Not at all true.  I think what's more truthful is that a very small percentage of the player population is actually playing realistically.  They had to bump up the severity of storms and make them untraversable because non-ranger type people were going from Tuluk to Allanak in five minutes through blinding, un-navigateable sand storms.  If people would just realise that "oh gee...maybe i'll DIE if I go out in the sandstorm..", then they wouldn't need friends to survive.

In a better scheme, your character would have some points in desert survival (or whatever) and some in merchanting and might have a better chance of making it out alive.

If you want some of this, pick a class/subclass combination that fits your background.  Don't expect that just because you SAID you have 20 years desert experience that you can get away with picking a merchant class.  Most merchants spend time in caravans, or in a city, where they can work on the merchantly arts.  Someone who has 20 years desert experience doesn't have this luxury, because they've probably been learning how to hunt and fend for themselves.  If they did manage to live a desert lifestyle, it's probably because they had help, and thus having help would allow them to focus on merchant stuff while neglecting the survival techniques which someone else is managing.

This goes along with the whole "rangers can camp, but wilderness warriors can not."

I don't think wilderness quit is such a big deal.  I've played 4 nomad warriors who never had a problem quitting in the wilderness.  There are plenty of quit safe rooms out there, and I can think of probably 10 off the top of my head.  No matter where you are in the known world, there's probably a quit safe room within a five minute OOC kank ride.

The system of classes (merchant included) is gravely flawed and you know it.

Life is flawed.  The whole universe is flawed.  Armageddon is priceless.  If you don't like the flaws, go play somewhere else.

What - so I have to be able to become an expert archer and give up the freedom to excel my parry just so I can quit in the wilderness?

Think about it: two fighter types.  One (the ranger) decides to spend 10 years of his life shooting things from a distance.  In terms of melee weapons, he owns a longknife and rarely uses it for combat.  Fighter #2 (the warrior) spends 10 years of his life fighting animals in close quarters with a couple of swords.  It's pretty obvious and realistic that the one who uses archery all the time is going to suck at parrying because he never uses it.  The close-quarters fighter is going to suck at archery because he spends all his time swinging swords.  If you look at archery some more, it's obvious that it's a ranger skill.  You need wide open spaces.  Archery sucks in a city because there's crowds and buildings and kanks and wagons and narrow streets...If you want to be a master archer, you have to go out of the city to do it, and that means ranger.  That means you're going to learn how to survive in the wild, and that means you get to quit in the wilderness.  You shouldn't pick a class just because they get wilderness quit, and then bitch that you can't parry as well as warriors can.  Honestly...

[Malifaxis]

I've known a merchant who was not only one of the best RP'ers I have ever had the pleasure of encountering, but also powerful enough to get about 95% of the playerbase absolutely fucking murdered with a mere twitch of his upper lip.

Flawed?  Fuck that.

Perhaps if you can't properly play a merchant, you shouldn't.  They are an awesome class, but very few players can slip and stick in that mindset.

And gosh... merchants are screwed in the wilderness?  Um.  No.  I could take a character with a total of 3 skills... contact, barrier, and forage, and survive in the wilderness if I used my brain as a player and payed attention to my surroundings.  If you can survive with that, you can survive with a merchant.

Certain classes are more easily played by certain people.  Myself?  I know what I can play well, and I know I suck utterly at rangers.  Like terribly.  You don't even want to know how bad.  I hear on and on and on and on and on about how much rangers rule.  Yeah, whatever.  They suck.  I can't play them, so they should be changed.

em snorts, kicking the soapbox over to the next contestant before heading off to get freakin hella plowed on vodka and agvat with Seeker.

[Jorlain]

Or you could be like me... And never die. Ever.

[Ghost]

After all - what does a merchant do:

1. Buys
2. Sells
3. Networks
4. Organizes
5. Speaks a nifty language
6. Pilots a wagon
7. Crafts

Just what does an assassin do?

1) Takes contract.
2) Kills.

Pickpocket?

1) Steals.

Burglar?
1) See pickpocket.  Only using a different skill.

Ranger?

1) Arrows.
2) Fights.
3)Hunts
4) Forages.

Warrior?

1) Fights.
2) Dies.

Looking at this picture, I see, merchant class have more poinst than the rest.  Right?

[Tamarin]

Ghost you can't be serious...

[Rhyden]

Ghost you can't be serious...

Nope, I think Ghost is bang on. Merchants really can do -way- more than any regular common fighter/thief type character.

[Tamarin]

Most of the classes can do all of those things...it just takes a bit of smarts and planning.

[Ghost]

I was making some sarcasm alright.  I could not stop myself doing it.

There are already some examples given out to suggest how merchant guild rock.  And still seeing a merchant can't do anything comment, well.. I could not stop myself doing it.

I can't play a merchant guild character myself though.  But that does not mean merchants suck.

[moab]

Tam>
Have your warrior get caught in a sandstorm and see how good you are getting back to a quit safe room, eh?

Classes are flawed and are used because they are easy to balance and because the code base already supported them.

They don't reflect an organically collected set of skills.  To argue they do is to ignore plenty of RL examples all around you.

We put up with them for the two aforementioned reasons and because we make exceptions for the fantasy land we're playing in.
*shrug*

[Tamarin]

Ya...It's happened a couple of times.  The first time, I had to fight my way through raptor's get back to Luir's.  The second time, I pitched my tent and waited it out.

Now, the storm didn't come out of nowhere.  The weather was crappy when I went out, and I should have known, but I took the risk.  And I dealt with it.

[Akaramu]

I did not vote because I'm missing the option "I like the merchant guild, I play it, and I find it powerful'.

But that could be because I have not ever bothered practicing skills much at all with any class. Never branched a thing except with a merchant PC, so my other non-karma classes were rather powerless.

*shrug*

[moab]

I would say that is the beauty of the merchant class and wherein the game approaches a MUSH-like quality.

You are - generally - free from code concerns (you hire other people to worry about that stuff) and are free to roleplay.

[Tamarin]

I did not vote because I'm missing the option "I like the merchant guild, I play it, and I find it powerful'.

Same here.

Talk about a biased poll...

[Maybe42or54]

The power of merchant class is also stolen from by people that have a background that screams that they are a merchant and then they pick ranger subguild and general crafter.

Or Vice versa.

And I didn't vote either for the above reasons.

I don't have much experience with a merchant class, but you know what?
The imms know how to manhandle the otehr classes.

OOcly, You can't die to the hour of "spar" crafting. (that is, crafting over and over with little emotes)

You don't really have to devote hours OOC to master the things merchant's do best.

You don't have to do a lot of things to keep your class up-to-date with the others of your classes.

A 67 day merchant can still be killed by a 2 day merchant.
A 67 day merchant can probably have the two merchant killed, along with half the relatives of stated twodayer.

[Incognito]

The poll was one-sided, because it was meant to be sarcastic - more to highlight my point than anything else.

Having said that - quite a lot of people have posted their thoughts on the Merchant Guild, and their thoughts on the "balance of power". Maybe some were more vehement like Tamarin. But it's all in good spirit!

However, no one has hit on replying to my original concern.

I'll repost again, in layman's terms.

Lets say there are 3 PCs in the game - Trader Joe (guild merchant), Elven Punk (guild burglar) and Ranger Bob (guild ranger).

Now, Trader Joe, being the slick merchant he is, can haggle the pants off any shopkeeper in the bazaar, cruise in his own argosy AND even use his spare time to make some nifty items with his tools!

Elven Punk on the other hand, being an elf - can sneak around town and get into cool locked places using his tools, but, being a city-slicker city-elf, he can haggle the pants partially off any shopkeeper int he bazaar too! Oh, he knows he's prolly not as good as Trader Joe, but so what? He can get a tidy discount, and doesnt need a merchant like Trader Joe.

Ranger Bob on the other hand, is a desert person, but he's a wily fella! He's a house servant! He kin overhear his masters' conversations and he can even craft lil stuff to please them, but best of all, when he's not hunting and skinning all kinds of beasts, he can drive his master around in his 4x4 mek-powered wagon! So guess what? The master gets a kickass guard, who can drive him around too, and again, there goes the need to hire poor Trader Joe!

Granted, Elven Punk will never be as good at haggling as Trader Joe, or that Ranger Bob will never pilot as well as Trader Joe, the point still remains.......

Trader Joe - try as he might - can never learn to fight like Ranger Bob, or pick locks like Elven Punk, even though he doesnt aspire to learn those skills to the degree of expertise that Elven Punk or Ranger Bob might have!

What I meant to say in the original post and here - again is - if skills unique to the Merchant Guild are available via subguilds, to other guilds, why not make other skills available to the Merchant Guild too, which are unique to other Guilds. It's only fair! (If you feel that those subguilds shouldnt be available to other guilds, then sure - make them special subguilds, only available for Merchants!).

I already agree to Sanvean's point that no subguild skill level will ever surpass the level of the main guild level.

I think someone mentioned somewhere that except Tentmaking and Wagoncrafting, ALL other merchant guild skills can get attained by the other guilds, through choice of one subguild or another. That's just plain tragic!

Anyways, I'm not gonna continue this banter, on the same subject again and again. I hope my point has reached atleast a few folks who might understand the point I'm trying to make.

[EvilRoeSlade]

To remedy this percieved inbalance, I think merchants should be able to craft things that aren't available from any other source, and are obviously of better quality (and this should be codedly reflected) than anything that can be purchased from an NPC's store.

[Marauder Moe]

To remedy this percieved inbalance, I think merchants should be able to craft things that aren't available from any other source, and are obviously of better quality (and this should be codedly reflected) than anything that can be purchased from an NPC's store.

This is already the case.  Or at least, with some of the crafting skills it is.  Some objects can't be crafted unless you have enough skills, and probably there are a fair amount that lie above the skill cap of subguilds.

[Tamarin]

Precisely.

Incog, I understand what you're saying.  I reaaaaly do.  Trust me.  And I have two follow up points:

1) Most of the blander class skills are available through subguilds (things like sap, some melee stuff, steal, sneak, hide, etc).  If you picked a merchant thug or merchant rebel, you'll probably get the necessary combat skills to be able to fend for yourself long enough to escape from a nasty situation (provided you get some training).  Does this mean you'll be hired as a guard?  Probably not.  Your examples were also really specific.  The jobs that your two pseudo-merchants took weren't really merchantly jobs.  The ability to pilot a wagon is by no means merchant-specific.  Lots of different types of people should be able to do it, include servants, caravan guides, etc.  As for the theif...yah, he can haggle a bit.  But most of his income is from stealing.  And he'll never be anywhere close to as prosperous on his own as he could be stealing items and having the merchant sell them for a hugely inflated price.  He might be able to have a few thousand coins in his stash, but with a good merchant, that amount could easily increase 10, or even 100 fold.

2) Pick up a copy of Dale Carnegie's "How To Win Friends And Influence People".  It has some good insights on how to get people to take interest in you.

[Tlaloc]

I think there is a pretty glaring phallacy going on here, in which people seem to think that non-merchants can do merchanty things just as good as regular merchants can.

Simply put, they can't. A merchant will always be able to out-craft and out-haggle any other character in game, hands down.

What I meant to say in the original post and here - again is - if skills unique to the Merchant Guild are available via subguilds, to other guilds, why not make other skills available to the Merchant Guild too, which are unique to other Guilds. It's only fair! (If you feel that those subguilds shouldnt be available to other guilds, then sure - make them special subguilds, only available for Merchants!).

Firstly, Armageddon is not fair.

Secondly, subguilds are ment to flesh out a characters background. They were ment to make it easier on the staff, so that we wouldn't have to keep adding skills to people who kept adding things in their backgrounds like: "I grew up as a potter, and thus, should know how to craft pots."

If your merchant has had fighting in his background, take one of the fighting subguilds that have been created for that plain reason. Were you a theif? Take a theify subguild.

The main point is: nobody will ever be as good at what your class is 'supposed' to do. Burglars are the best at breaking into things. Rangers are the best at ranging. Warriors are the best at fighting. Merchants are the best at Merchanting. No amount of sub-guilds will ever make a Ranger a better choice when you're hiring a merchant than a real honest to god Merchant.

[Angela Christine]

The poll was one-sided, because it was meant to be sarcastic - more to highlight my point than anything else.  

Tip:  Heavily biased polls don't highlight your point, they make it look like you are completely unwilling or unable to see any point of view but your own.

Lets say there are 3 PCs in the game - Trader Joe (guild merchant), Elven Punk (guild burglar) and Ranger Bob (guild ranger).

Now, Trader Joe, being the slick merchant he is, can haggle the pants off any shopkeeper in the bazaar, cruise in his own argosy AND even use his spare time to make some nifty items with his tools!

Elven Punk on the other hand, being an elf - can sneak around town and get into cool locked places using his tools, but, being a city-slicker city-elf, he can haggle the pants partially off any shopkeeper int he bazaar too! Oh, he knows he's prolly not as good as Trader Joe, but so what? He can get a tidy discount, and doesnt need a merchant like Trader Joe.

Ranger Bob on the other hand, is a desert person, but he's a wily fella! He's a house servant! He kin overhear his masters' conversations and he can even craft lil stuff to please them, but best of all, when he's not hunting and skinning all kinds of beasts, he can drive his master around in his 4x4 mek-powered wagon! So guess what? The master gets a kickass guard, who can drive him around too, and again, there goes the need to hire poor Trader Joe!

Granted, Elven Punk will never be as good at haggling as Trader Joe, or that Ranger Bob will never pilot as well as Trader Joe, the point still remains.......

Trader Joe - try as he might - can never learn to fight like Ranger Bob, or pick locks like Elven Punk, even though he doesnt aspire to learn those skills to the degree of expertise that Elven Punk or Ranger Bob might have!

It is true that a merchant cannot pick locks, except perhaps as a special app.  Personally I wouldn't mind if merchants that had mastered, say, wagonmaking branched lock picking, lockpick making, and the theoretical skill of lockmaking.  By the time he masters wagonmaking a merchant knows a hell of a lot about engineering gadgets both large and small, so being able to make (and pick) simple locks to use on his wagons, chests and such would be a sensible extension of his skills.  It wouldn't unbalance the classes, because mastering wagonmaking takes a hell of a long time, so very, very few merchants would ever branch lock related skills.

A merchant can become a hunter like a ranger using the archer or hunter subguilds, he just has to be a little bit more careful to avoid melee.  Once he has the archery skill a merchant actually does fairly well hunting small game, as long as he has the strength to use one of those magick two room bows.  He can manufacture arrows faster and cheaper than anyone else.

As for melee, merchants may not be as baddly off as you think.  I had a dwarven merchant who did pretty well gathering feathers and small bones from little forest creatures through melee.  The dwarven tough hide and high strength probably helped, but despite combat taking longer than it would with a combat class it was totally possible to take down small prey in melee combat.  

Merchants do get the shield use, dual wield and two-handed skills just like everyone else, and a shield isn't a bad idea for merchant.  The right subguild may even give you more skill with using a shield.  The idea isn't to go out soloing gith, but to survive a fight long enough to escape or for help to arrive.  It also isn't a bad idea for a merchant who has to travel outside lawful areas to wear light armor rather than fancy clothing: fancy cloathing is likely to attract bad guys, and light armor might just deflect enough blows for you to escape serious injury.

Merchants don't get weapon skills, but that doesn't mean they are completely useless in combat in the long run.  I remember a GDB story about a Vivaduan in the distant past who, after mastering his complete spell list, did start soloing gith in the desert.  Why?  Because it was the only thing left.  Ok, that was the bad old days but the point is that every class has the invisible Offense and Defense skills, even classes like Vivaduans that are supposed to suck in combat.  Those skills improve very, very slowly, but they do improve.  Theoretically a merchant who joined the Byn or other clan that provided regular sparring opportunities could eventually get to the point where he would be a credible fighter -- never an expert badass, but a passable fighter none the less.  I had a non-combat class get recruited into a combat possition once, sort of by accident.  In regular sparring she didn't do very well, though a subclass like thug might have helped.  But in unarmed combat, fisticuffs, she did pretty well and sometimes even won against combat-class PCs.  I wouldn't count on every hunting bahamets, but a non-combat class can get to be ok at fighting if they work at it.  They'll have to work at it harder than a combat class would, but that applies equally to any PC attempting things outside his classes normal skills.  A merchant/stonecarver will have a much easier time carving stone than a warrior/stonecarver would.


There are many skills that are not available through subguilds, including but not limited to:

lockpicking
backstab
weapon skills
wagonmaking
tent making
pick making
componant crafting
charge
instrument making
poison
trap

Many of these skills are held or branched by multiple guilds, they are not unique.  What unique skills are not available through subguilds?  I don't know them all, since I haven't maxed out every class . . . or any class,   but a few that stick out as probably single-guild are:

wagon making
tent making
pick making
instrument making
charge
perfume making


Most of those are merchant skills.  Rangers get a few things nobody else does, fighters get a few things nobody else does (at least not for a long while) and merchants eventually get quite a few things nobody else does.  The three sneaky guilds overlap most of their skills eventually.  The magick guilds overlap most of their non-spell skills.  

Just on pure crunchy skills, not merely behavior that any PC can learn, merchants do eventually have a very robust skill set.  The key word there is eventually.  Like mages, merchants start pretty weak and slowly become an unstoppable juggernaught.   That's why some people like the warrior guild: warriors are pretty good at their core competencies right from day one.  If you want something beaten up, a warrior can contribute in a meaningful way right out of the HoK.  Warriors are the Instant Gratification guild.  Rangers do ok pretty quickly, that discount in time spent learning to ride and the ability to ignore bad weather means that they can ride out into the desert and get eaten by a scrab almost right away.  Sneakies, mages and merchants have to be more patient, it is going to take a while before they gain the power to be self-sufficent and successful in their core competencies.



That said, I'm not opposed to low-cap weapon specialist subguilds.  I've even suggested some in the past.

Spearman - spear-making, throw, piercing weapons  (like archer, but with spears)
Savage -  spear-making, throw, skin   (like hunter, but with spears)
Swordsman - sword-making, slashing weapons, disarm
Axeman - axe-making, chopping weapons, lumberjacking
Blunty Mcblunter - club-making, blunt weapons, sap

Ok, I haven't got the names ironed out, but you get the idea.     These skills would all have very low caps, to prevent them from being over-powered.  This would allow a PC to be "passable" with one weapon type they normally wouldn't start with access to, but never to become an expert with it unless they had an appropriate main guild (mages of course still wouldn't be able to cast spells while holding a weapon, so they have to suffer the crippling unarmed penalties while casting, which ought to keep a little bit of weapon skill from unbalancing them).   Like the archery subguilds, these would help disguise your main guild.  People aren't going to expect that axe-weilding manic to be a pickpocket, so they won't automatically suspect him when their wallets go missing.


Angela Christine

[Delirium]

AC for President.

[Maybe42or54]

And I'm still mad you can't be good at using whips unless you are a warrior.

[Tamarin]

That isn't true.

Where would you get such an idea?

[Rhyden]

You basically said it all, AC.

That said, I'm not opposed to low-cap weapon specialist subguilds.  I've even suggested some in the past.

Spearman - spear-making, throw, piercing weapons  (like archer, but with spears)
Savage -  spear-making, throw, skin   (like hunter, but with spears)
Swordsman - sword-making, slashing weapons, disarm
Axeman - axe-making, chopping weapons, lumberjacking
Blunty Mcblunter - club-making, blunt weapons, sap

-Awesome idea. I really like these subguilds a lot. Now that I think about it, these subguilds seem like common sense.

[Maybe42or54]

Actually, it was more of a joke than anything.

[Rhyden]

Actually, it was more of a joke than anything.

Then why would AC suggest it in the past? Why is it such a good idea if it's a joke?

[Forest Junkie]

And I'm still mad you can't be good at using whips unless you are a warrior.

Heh. Try harder.