Hunters and Hunting

[Rhyden]

Well, a little while ago, I had an IG experience involving a house member and a non-house member and this wasn't the first time this sort of situation has happened.

There was talk between the two and in the end, it came to the conclusion that this non-house member explained how they made in a week about five times the house member made in a month.

Pretty outstanding, hmm? It seems to me that there are a few fighter-type characters out there who think killing off a few beasties, skinning them up and selling their skins for a few large each is realistic, and just making good-profit.

Think again. It directly states in the Armageddon website documentation that hunters usually border on about enough pay to afford their next meal and next drink of water.

Being a hunter is by definition not a lucrative occupation.  If you are selling massive amounts of hides and becoming ludicrously wealthy than you are overdoing it.  If you are struggling at some points but in general managing to get by, then you are truly enjoying the experience of playing a hunter in the harsh world that is Armageddon.

Sometimes, you'll have a crazy-rich hunter, but the only real difference would be they could afford a few more ales, a bit more water and perhaps some clearner clothes.

What I'm trying to clarify is this: most members of a house -should be- better off than individual hunters, but for some reason, there are many who continue to deny this fact.

Thoughts, comments, ideas?

[HardCarbon]

The House hunter does have certain advantages...  Free Food and Water (I think). .  Discounts from the house..  a SAFE place to rest.    A place to train and practice.   People you can trust.

[Gaare]

An unaffilated citizen has almost no power and importance in eyes of the templarate and houses. They may die, suffer, be enslaved just looking at bad to a templar,  a noble, militia or even a certain merchant who has paying good bribe/donation to her favourite templar.

Holding black coins is very important, but does not mean power, status, safe sleep, future etc.. And unaffilated hunters, even the best ones, mostly become meal at the end of their short lives.. That's the way of the hunters anyway, but it offers different type of RP and enjoyable time.

[Anonymous Hunter]

As the other half of this IG experience, I feel the need to chime in.

Contrary to popular belief, hunting is difficult and dangerous.  The mortality rate for unaffiliated hunters is insane, as it should be.  The problem is that once a hunter reaches a certain plateau, the money will start rolling in because the hunter gets better but the hunted game doesn't.  Also, there's very little incentive for the hunter to move on, outside the player's OOC greed and motives.  (Why risk your life hunting a lion when you can make the same money killing two zebras?)  Is that unbalanced?  In some ways, yes.  But for all that money-generating ability, there are well-established checks and balances already in the game.  Unaffiliated hunters don't usually have the same access to much of the plot-development that goes on, and they certainly don't have the social standing in most cases.  The lack of plot-development and character goals (such as promotions, etc...) usually makes these characters really boring, and most will eventually go on to do other things or start taking dangerous risks and get killed.  I think that evens things out pretty fairly in the end.

[da mitey warrior]

The economy is broken, it always has been.  The amount of money a skilled independent can make is much, much higher than is reasonable.  Once you get the IC and OOC skills to be a powerful character you can be richer than most nobles.  This has alot of effects, from making retaining clanned employees difficult to unballancing the power structures in the game.  

It's not something that is easily fixed either, since you'd have to screw over unskilled newbies to restrict uberhunters.  Just telling people to stop isn't going to help either, since its contrary to human nature.

[Bogre]

I think there is some balance in the fact that hunting is so dangerous and most die, and even the successful ones die soon, but I don't think that an independent should be able to generate much more sid as a noble's stipend. And honestly, how many PC's find use for all that sid they make? It'be different if equipment wore down faster. (For the entire game).

[moab]

The real problem, as I see it isn't the economy or the cost of skins and addressing those issues won't solve the problem. Instead of taking two 1,000 sid skins, hunters will take 10 100 sid skins.

The problem is that many hunters don't play hunting as it should be(imnsho).  

Hunters need to relax a little if they are sitting on a pile of coin.  They should spend that coin - drinking, rents, whores, gambling - whatever.  

They shouldn't be hunting everything they can, but specialize on a type of game.  Big game, small game, scrab only, Skeet and Gurth only and focus on that type of game.

And once they find they must return to the city to sell off their take, they should stay there awhile and roleplay that dusty hunter in from the fields.

Playing the "busy bee" is unrealistic...but as other posts it doesn't much matter in the end because eventually the indy hunter will be someone's lunch and his coin will end up in Nenyuk's party fund or whatever.

[Anonymous]

What I'm trying to clarify is this: most members of a house -should be- better off than individual hunters, but for some reason, there are many who continue to deny this fact.

Disagree.

Has it occured to you that maybe the characters telling you this are lying?  Maybe they truly are piss poor and just say they make five times your income because they feel inadequate yet are too stubborn to accept "House" employment.

And if that's not the case, it's very likely that their five fold income is based on more than simply hunting and skinning.  Bear in mind, independants risk their life.  They travel alone (which is, generally, a big "No no") and risk life and limb.  Transporting goods is a way to make incredible profits (such as bringing wood to Red Storm, or smuggling spice into Allanak).  For that reason alone they should make five times what you make.  In five years from now, they'll likely have been long since dead whereas your character, who makes five times less, is still alive and quite likely will be for many years to come.  So in the end, who's richer?

[Anonymous]

Also don't listen to what people say.  People are bad at math or will embellish to make a point.  It happens in other games too.  When I read someone say 'I made 2000 sid an IC day as a hunter, oh god fix the economy I'm getting screwed as a clanmember now' I assume they are probably exagerrating in an attempt to get me to see how broken they feel the economy is.  Or, they could play an indy hunter that spams direction commands, cheeses combat, spam crafts, stables mounts for 30 seconds to get them rested, hunts for days on end and spams the barter command if they have the appropriate subguild.

A hunter that takes into account the distance they have traveled, the exertion combat requires, the pain of wounds and how long it takes to sew up a pair of leather gloves will not make an abundance of money.

The answer is not to further change the economy to bring the earnings of those who cheese game mechanics into line with reality but to educate.

[Rhyden]

Yeah, good points. I hadn't really considered any of the other balancing facts of being an indy hunter. I guess it's really up to the player's preferance.

IMO, if you're playing an extremely successful, rich, well-off common hunter rich as nobles and templars, you're only taking the fun away from yourself.

[Gorobei]

If the hunting economy is 'fixed', then all it will do is force everyone to play unrealistic hunters.

[Rhyden]

If the hunting economy is 'fixed', then all it will do is force everyone to play unrealistic hunters.

I don't understand, how would it do that?

[Maybe42or54]

A mastercard commercial..


Cost of water for a full year- 2000 coins.
Cost of a quiver of arrows and to replenish them for a year- 1000 coins
Cost of getting all that for free and having friends in high places by joining a house- Priceless.

[joyofdiscord]

If the hunting economy is 'fixed', then all it will do is force everyone to play unrealistic hunters.

I don't understand, how would it do that?

Right now, Char A is using realistic hunting methods to make realistic gains.
At the same time, Char B is twinking like crazy to make mad l00t.

If we change hunting to make it more difficult and less profitable, so that now Char B makes only realistic gains, here is the new situation.

Char A uses realistic hunting methods to die of starvation, or just quits the mud.
Char B twinks like crazy to make realistic gains, or just quits the mud.

[Rhyden]

Ah, much more understandable now.

Heh, I liked Maybe's explanation a bit better though.

[Koala]

Assumption:
-For simplicity I assume that there are no twink PCs in the Armageddon Mud.

Average Lifetime[/list]  Independent --> Short
Clanned --------> Long

Yealy Earnings[/list] Independent --> High* (You pay for shelter, food and water + High risk should have a high rate of return).
Clanned --------> Low (You don't pay for shelter, food and water + Low risk should have a low rate of return).  

Lifetime Earnings[/list] Independent --> Low (Unfortunately you are not going to live long enough to accumulate your earnings).
Clanned --------> High

I think this simple chart fairly explains the difference between independent and clanned characters.

If you ask me, it is just a matter of choice. Do you want to live long and be remembered or you just want to live a short but adventurous life with low probability of success?

-----------

*: This represents your total income before deducting your costs such as water, shelter and etc.

[Maybe42or54]

Exactly. Let me refer you to a real life situation.

When I joined the military, I was payed 900 bucks a month.
Now, I make 1500 a month (Give or take and not from the military)

When I was in the military, I didn't pay for jack shit, I got discounts from car dealerships, I got discounts from lenders, I got discounts from practically everything! I still didn't pay for food, water, a place to sleep.

Now, I have to pay for everything so I need to make more.

In the military, A clan, that 900 was pure profit. I could save that whole 900 for the entire month and next month I'd have 1800 in cash.

Now, I'm lucky if I have 300 every two months.

Does that help anyone?

[Sokotra]

I agree with the 2 above posts.  Just because someone is choosing a different, more dangerous lifestyle, doesn't necessarily mean that they are 'twinking' or 'spamming'.  Personally, I don't have time to play the types of characters that get involved with lots, or even a few, complex inter-personal relationships.  Therefore I tend to play loner hunters and mercenaries that are usually high-risk, quick return on my investment, lots of action, yet short-lived type of characters.  Yes, sometimes they may live long and prosper, and end up being pretty 'bad-assed', but it is like rolling the dice or gambling.  Do I want to play it safe and put a few 'sid chips down on the city guard/house aide... or do I want to go high-risk and bet it all on my half-elven mercenary?  Sure, you might be able to strike a balance between the two... and I try to do that sometimes, but you usually end up being more of one than the other. But anyway, the point is, pick your own playing style and try not to be too judgemental about how others wish to play, as long as they are trying to do it within the rules of the game and to the best of their ability and within their schedule/time constraints etc...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hunters make more money than other PCs who whittle and so forth because the economy is not completely accurate in-code. It's also wise to note that Hunters die faster 90% of the time.

And to be completely fair, a big-game hunter in a world as dangerous as Zalanthas should be richly paid. I mean, these ain't no little lions or anything here. Turtles as big as houses? That's just plain dangerous.

[Incognito]

I just thought I'd post here that - for hunters to get to the "rich" stage, they first have to put in a long period of time, during which their requisite skills are honed, before they can survive in the sands, and start making decent money.

This initial period is not easy by any standards - most often independant hunters will be forced to choose between spending the last of their sids on water, or food, or to stable their mounts!!! No storage space is also a huge pain in the butt! And, lastly - death is always lurking around the next dune!

Unlike them, clanned PCs have no worries about such day-to-day issues, and are able to devote their physical and mental energies into their professions without distractions.

So, if the independant hunters are able to make it, after going through this hard initiation period, they deserve to earn the sids, even if the amount might not seem to be "balanced" in the grand economy of things on Zalanthas.

[Rhyden]

Turtles as big as houses? That's just plain dangerous.

Heh, I'm sooo stealing that as a quote, thanks 7DVs.

[Anael]

I agree with the danger/short lifetime versus quiet/long lifetime points some of you brought up. Just a random sigh... if people used bribes and tips more often, it'd be perfect for clanners (because they'd obviously have better chance of getting those)

[Cuusardo]

I am sure there are and have been hunters that have been twinks and made ridiculous amounts of money because of it.  Those hunters always end up falling prey to the same things that all other hunters do, and then some because they have no affiliation with anyone in the cities.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Until the economy is fixed, there is a simple solution to this.

Let a templar know how rich that independant is.  He won't be rich anymore, you'll have a new templar friend, and if you're lucky you might even get a slice of the spoils.  

There are some things even a high parry skill can't protect you from.  Remind that fucker what the benefits of joining a clan are.

[Swordsman]

'House' and 'non-house' is a pretty broad distinction to make. How long a career each of those characters had would probably be a better basis for comparison. After all, if you're talking about a non-house hunter who's survived the desert for the last five years and a house hunter who started out a month ago, the comparison wouldn't be particularly useful. As others have pointed out, too, the non-house character would be at much greater risk of dying an unnatural death, have less security (safety, resources, friends, etc.), and so on. Looking at coin alone isn't, IMO, a good way to compare success in life.

There's also the point about playing styles. Some people just prefer to play more alone than with others, and I think there's definitely scope in the game setting for that (even though it's a lot more ICly risky). I've played independents in the past, and it is (or was, the last time I looked, heh) possible to get rich fairly quickly ... but you're always at risk, and you're also always in competition with any other independents who are out there. I remember more than a few times some of my old PCs brought in hides and just couldn't sell them because the merchants were out of coins. (I don't know if this still happens, but I'm assuming it does.) Just because someone is independent and rich, that's no reason to OOCly accuse the player of playing unrealistically or being twinkish. To fairly make this accusation, you'd have to follow them around and watch what they actually do IC.

If everyone and their kank is making a fortune as an independent hunter, I'd start worrying, but I doubt that's the case. If there happen to be a few rich independents hanging around your part of the world, maybe it gives the impression that it's easy to get rich as an independent, but don't forget that it's an awfully big world and what you see might not be a fair description of the situation elsewhere.

There's fair 'balance' in the long term, IMO. One thing I clearly remember from when I used to play independents was that there was literally nowhere that my PC could sleep safely. Out in the desert, the dangers are obvious, but even in inns, there's always the risk of pickpockets and suicidal berserkers (tm). Want a safe room to sleep in? Sure, let's see the coins, buddy (i.e., rent a room). To me, just a safe place to sleep is worth an awful lot. All IMHO.

Swordsman

[lazycritic]

I agree with the danger/short lifetime versus quiet/long lifetime points some of you brought up. Just a random sigh... if people used bribes and tips more often, it'd be perfect for clanners (because they'd obviously have better chance of getting those)

Last time I tried to bribe a Militia man I got into trouble. And I was just trying to get him to overlook something relatively innocent. He told me 50 sid was "worthless" - though he didn't say how much he would accept.  :roll:

Most clanned PCs are rather loyal to their Houses and their 'duties'...with good reason, I suppose.

On the topic, independents can make bank but it takes lots of hours logged in, doing risky workt. Clanned PCs can just idle and spar...though this whole thread has already gone over that.

What I wonder is whether the extra sid they bring in causes coin to be worthless(as 50 sid is worthless) or whether it drives plotlines. I lean towards the latter.

I think clanned PCs are overpaid. Only the Bynners know what sid is truly worth to a commoner, because when they don't have any contracts, they're just scraping by.

[Larrath]

You can't expect to bribe a furious templar into forgiveness with five 'sids.
You can barter and haggle what the bribe will be, it's not just an offer and a yes/no.

I've been seeing plenty of bribes as of late, all around me.  I'm pleased.

[lazycritic]

You can't expect to bribe a furious templar into forgiveness with five 'sids.
You can barter and haggle what the bribe will be, it's not just an offer and a yes/no.

Perhaps you should read over my post over a little more closely. Anyhow, I'd rather take the higher price of a Templar than your average fussy brawny House guard or Militia man. Templars usually understand that bribes are just part of business.

[Larrath]

I did read it.  You could have tried to offer more, or try to see what else he'd like instead of 'sid.  As long as you don't go "Okay, so what the fuck -do- you want, Mr. I'm A Fucking Moron Sergeant Man?" and are a little subtle about it, you stand a good chance of success.
And some people simply don't like bribes because that's their personality, it doesn't have to mean anyone was playing badly.

[Marauder Moe]

Perhaps a bribing section should be added to the game docs AND to militia clan docs.  Emphasis on the fact that bribes are the norm in Zalanthan city life, not an exception.  Taking a bribe does not make one a disloyal soldier/employee/templar.

[Angela Christine]

Indeed, accepting a bribe or other overture can be the first step in a clandestine relationship that -can- benefit your primary employer.  Letting the criminal element get away with petty shit for a price doesn't just line your pockets, it gives you an in to their society.  Eventually that has the potential to give you a heads up when something is going down that your boss really would care about.  

Even if it doesn't go anywhere, paying bribes will encourage that person to be more careful in the future, so that they don't have to keep paying bribes.  It is like an informal system of fines.  Instead of getting a ticket and having to go down to the courthouse to pay it off, you pay off the cop right there in the street.  Less hassel for everyone really, including the government.

It isn't necessarily cheating the system.  Some units may consider bribes to be like tips, a bonus for doing a good job -- the more bad guys you find, the more money you make.  Some may report the bribes they collect (or a portion of them) to their superior, and it might even be routine in some units that you kick back half the money you take in bribes to your Sarge, and he gives half of the he collects from the unit to his Templar with the weekly report.  It would be like working on commission.  A steady flow of bribe money shows that the unit is out there working and actively looking for wrong doers, not just sitting around waiting for crime to come to them.

The level of acceptable bribery would also depend on how many prisoners the city needs or can support.  Most of the time petty criminals (people who are absolutely no threat to the state) aren't worth taking up room in the cells or keeping jailers on duty to watch over them.  Now if Templar Hardass is planning a major arena event he might put the word out that he'd like to see the cells full a couple days ahead of time, to make sure that there will be a full slate of potential arena fodder just in case he needs them.  Or if there was a major accident in the mines or the farms and they suddenly needed a bunch more unskilled labour slaves -fast- then they might start hauling in unaffiliated people for loitering, traffic violations, or just "looking at me funny."  In that situation people commiting real crimes are going to have a harder time bribing their way out of trouble.  News of "high criminal retention periods" would quickly get around among the criminal element, so organized criminal organizations might discourage their members from pulling any jobs for a while, because it will be harder to get them off the hook if they get caught.

Bribes have a lot of potential.


Angela Christine

[lazycritic]

Damn! A sociological look at the tradition of bribing! Cool!

That's impressive. Somehow I wonder if that's what the world is really like...

[wizturbo]

Damn! A sociological look at the tradition of bribing! Cool!

That's impressive. Somehow I wonder if that's what the world is really like...

It sure used to be.  New York city policy operated very close to what AC described for a while until they cracked down on them.  Prostitution, gambling and drinking during prohabition were all supported with legal protection through payoffs to the policy on a regular, smooth basis.  There were even lists, of how much every police officer in the precinct got a month in bribe money.  That was many years ago, but still, interesting none the less.

[Angela Christine]

Taking a bribe isn't sleezy, it's patriotic!


Angela Christine