Mass COmbat Idea

[Dracul]

I think there should be a new skill for noble warrior type people, and maxxed out warriors, called, 'MASS FLEE' or 'WARCRY' where you can get everyone following you to 'flee' in some direction.  That might help out on some mass stuff.

It would need extra tweaking...as shadow primarily executes follow....but...if youre shadowing someone you wouldn't attack who they attack. (Nessecarily.)

perhaps just tag on something beyond 'follow' which could be easy enough. ah. well. maybe. ahem.

[Angela Christine]

The ability to get everyone to attack the same target is unnecessary.  The delay while everyone gets into position (types "kill <target>") isn't a big problem.

The ability to organize an orderly retreat would be a major boon though.  The delay while all the players read the retreat order in the combat scroll and then respond can be a disaster.  Then everyone retreats in different directions, wandering around the desert miles and miles apart, often attracting new dangers as they stagger around bleeding and confused.  A certain amount of confusion is appropriate in a retreat, and the distances involved when in the city are reasonable.  But in the desert if you flee in opposite directions you wind up 6+ miles apart,  which gets a little silly.  Wilderness rooms are usually pretty big so in a retreat most of the party should end up in the same room, in an orderly retreate everyone should end up in the same room.  You aren't safe, but at least you are all together.  


Additionally, the command echo should include the leader shouting "Run away!  Run away!"


Angela Christine

[Bogre]

Here's an idea to munch on.

Have a command skill, or maybe just a command uh, command.

So like, you have a templar. A bunch of soldiers start following, and they type, for example, obey templar. The templar then types 'command <player> or command all,' to take command of the players in his stead.

He starts leading them, and then he can order 'attack', 'retreat', 'rout', 'defend' etc etc etc.

[Dracul]

old school D&D for imm run events?

[Agent_137]

Lots of stuff in concerns to my previous post.

By weak I mean in comparison to the mud I played for 7 years, dragonrealms. It was shit for roleplay, but god awful of a beauty in terms of code.

Yes, it's a shame that we don't have a professionally developed code-base and a team of engineers crawling all over it 24/7 fixing bugs. It

Your sarcasm is noted, but I'm turning it around. It IS a shame. That's what I want. That's what I compare the code of Arma to. Sure, maybe it's unfair, but I'm not asking for everything to be perfect tomorrow. I just want to see progress toward this. And from the work you said you do for coding, it seems you're the man that actually DOES this type work. Good. Thank you.

I don't mean to offend you. I wanted to express my opinions on the direction I feel arma's code should take. I felt i made it rather explicit that the statements expressed were MY opinion, and that I appreciate the work done by the coders. Your insights are appreciated, but your sarcasm isn't.

I'm not saying that the Imms aren't doing a lot of work, but I am saying that they are focusing on things that aren't what I would place as priority.

(Of course, everyone has different ideas of priority, and the Imms work for free, and i appreciate the work they do.)

i will have to wholly disagree with this statement:

It doesn't really -need- to have anything more than what it has, since people have been tolerating (perhaps even enjoying?? *gasp*) our "weak" combat system for something like 12 years, now.

Because it's a bad reason to maintain status quo. If you carried that to extremes, why work on improving anything at all?

I made suggestions for improvement. I didn't demand anything happen tomorrow or I'd sue or quit. Please don't take up such a defensive stance. I'm sorry if I came off demanding.

Also,

As I addressed in a previous post (in response to another post of YOURS made in a similar tone and with a similar attitude of entitlement), new descriptions, items, echoes, etc. are added to the game by Storytellers, and do not require the assistance or time of an engine coder.

I was not aware of this. i think it's fantastic. I must have missed your previous response, I haven't regularly checked this board since march.

I like your suggestion of getting down and dirty with gags and highlights on my client to sort through battle spam. I'll have to do it.

I apologize if I came off with a sense of entitlement. It was not my intention. I wanted to express my opinion on some issues which seem to me have been left lying, when I think they shouldn't be left lying. I'm not the type to just hope and pray. If I see an issue, i tell the people who can fix it. It's their game, it's their option to fix it or not. But now they KNOW. And that's the extent of what I can do to mend the issue.

[lazycritic]

Though some of these systems are years-old, they still outpace counterpart systems on nearly every other free text MUD I've seen. Yeah, they need work and could be improved, but weak? I strongly disagree with you.

For 12 years they're weak. Have you looked at the SoI codebase? The engine is available for download here: http://www.middle-earth.us/index.php?display=engine.

It's based on DIKU Gamma, but it's heavily modified. It doesn't look very similiar in-game, but perhaps it's worth looking at.

Inluded in it is:

1) Three attacker limit on a target(how hard is that to code, really?).
2) Listen code that cuts into conversations, showing you something like, "So-and-so says, "I ... ran ... he ..." ect.
3) Cloak code to allow hoods to hide your sdesc and avoid capture from guards(it may even put your cloak on the wanted list if you steal while cloaked - don't think so, but that's a rumor I heard.)
4) Wounds which show up on your body and your corpse.
5) Weapons have noticeably different rates of attack.

SoI's combat is also noticeably slower than Armageddon, which makes mass combat a little less hectic - only a little less hectic.

That's all I can think of that may be nice on Armageddon.

[Delirium]

The listen code is also buggy in that release, because if you are listening to someone speak a laguage you don't know, you simply don't see that they're talking at all. Including any emotes that they may make. That doesn't mean it couldn't be put in, but it'd be a far cry from simply cutting and pasting, that's for sure.

Seeing a page scroll by of small bruises from sparring tagged onto your mdesc is the last thing I want to see.

The weapon attack rates for SOI's code are somewhat confusing and tricky to balance correctly, and I don't see where that needs much fixing in Armageddon's code, anyway.

What I would like to see is a change to dual-wielding: instead of both attacks happening at exactly the same time, increase the attack rate based on the dual-wielder's skill. It would be easier to roleplay, since in reality, you rarely ever attack with both weapons at the same time unless you're extremely good and have timed the movement precisely.

As for the three attacker limit on a target, heh: how many could surround a half-giant? What about ranged weapons such as long spears, how do they factor in? What about smaller versus larger attackers and smaller versus larger targets? Etc, etc, etc....

This isn't as easy or simple as many of you seem to think it would be. It would require a ton of effort and pre-planning. It doesn't strike me as a matter that one could just pick up and start plugging away at and begin churning out results.

Besides, the simplicity of Armageddon's combat code (while there are small fixes that would be nice to see), is beautiful. Yes, that's right, simpler is better. In my not-so humble opinion.

The more complex the combat code, the steeper the learning curve, and the HARDER it might be to stay on top of things in mass battles. Keep it simple and flexible, and let players do the rest for themselves with triggers and gags.

[Maybe42or54]

Seeing a page scroll by of small bruises from sparring tagged onto your mdesc is the last thing I want to see.

Armor can be coded to hide those when you wear the armor?
Like current day tattoos IG.

I'd love to see a byn warrior walk into the Gaj that just got back from the big contract against gith and you look at him and he is covered with cuts and bruises.

As long as they aren't tagged to your MDESC, but maybe they could be seen when you look at them?

Where they aren't wearing anything, they could have cuts and bruises that heal over time and let the tattoos and other items like that be seen?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would love to see bruises, if as nothing else but an ex description. I'd love to see some difference between poisoning, starving, and getting your ass kicked. Right now it's all "does not look well".

[jmordetsky]

My only gripe with the combat on Arm is that it isn't conductive to roleplay. It's like slash, slash, slash and every emote I try to type ends because I'm trying to see whats going on.

I think if we just slowed it down everything would be fine.

Of course if you slowed it down, you'd need to up the damage of a blow because otherwise fights would last days.

My fondest combat RP was playing a WOD mush that was essentially turn based and moderated by Imms. It was a rich experience and the fights were as much an RP experience as the politicking.

Obviously, such a model (imm moderating every scuffle) is not a scalable option for Arm, however I think we definately need some mechanism that allows people to add color to battles and turn battles into stories rather then just dice rolls followed by canned emotes.

That said, beating on the imms for combat code changes isn't going to help. If you've looked at any mud code (whcih I recently have) you'll see that the combat code is very meshed into the core of the base and difficult to modify as a result save for tweaks etc. Tearing it out and replacing it would be a difficult task to say the very least.

What would be really interesting, in general is to see some of the more techincal players down load diku or SOI and prototype a few things, show it to the imms and players and see what comes of it. I actually looked into this, but time is so short...*sigh*

anyhow, my 2 cents.

[amoeba]

My only gripe with the combat on Arm is that it isn't conductive to roleplay. It's like slash, slash, slash and every emote I try to type ends because I'm trying to see whats going on.

I think if we just slowed it down everything would be fine.

Of course if you slowed it down, you'd need to up the damage of a blow because otherwise fights would last days.

As I see it, a problem with slowing combat down is it also reduces the likelihood of dying. Yes you could make it more elegant with the *possibility* of inserting a lot more emotes, but it also tends to negate the urgency of battle, of having to make instantaneous decisions, of keeping a cool head in a tense situation and finally overcoming.  Slowing it down drastically eeliminates the "fog of war",  allowing a person to make decisions in a leisurely manner, and as a side effect virtually removes the adrenaline factor that many live (and die) for.  

As I see it,  some people want a leisurely, lets "roleplay" the combat scene.  Emotes are not roleplay in and of themselves.  Now this may come as blasphemous, but I actually kind of enjoy the fast pace, did I get disarmed, race of millisecond by millisecond decisions.  I too lost a loved character to not realizing I was disarmed.  I was bitter for a few moments, then squarely put the blame on me for not noticing.  I for one would be vastly disappointed if the pace slowed down as I feel the danger would be as well.  There are ways of using the client to show you if you have been disarmed, bashed, etc.  

And as for emoting, I am not a fast nor accurate typer, and even I can get in plenty of emotes in the time given. True you are not going to write a Pulitzer prize winning emote in the time allotted, but should you, I mean you are fighting for your life?

Does saying that I like combat to be hard and fast paced make me a slash and hacker? Not hardly.  Personaly I feel combat should stress you.  If we turn it into another emote exereise like barracks cleaning, it reduces much of it's appeal.  I am -not- stating that this is what you are suggesting, what I am saying is that slowing it down will have this concequence as a side effect.  I would predict that dying by combat would be come less common, extra time to emote also means that there is extra time to make decisions which drasticly reduces the overall risk.

This being said, some enhancements to the combat code would be nice.  Eons ago I played a rather boring mud that had one interesting thing.  Targeted combat.  That is you could target the head, hand, etc. -and- damage was location based. It was entirely possible to even lose a limb codedly after a combat. The only way to get it back was through magical means, you had to pay a healer.  This was an LP codebase if I recall correctly, not diku.

[lazycritic]

The listen code is also buggy in that release, because if you are listening to someone speak a laguage you don't know, you simply don't see that they're talking at all. Including any emotes that they may make. That doesn't mean it couldn't be put in, but it'd be a far cry from simply cutting and pasting, that's for sure.

Of course not. But it could provide some help on where to start. I'm not sure how readable the engine is, though...don't know much about code.

I'm throwing out ideas that have been done before in a DIKU-based RPI. I don't really want any changes to listen, anyhow. I like being able to hear everything.

Seeing a page scroll by of small bruises from sparring tagged onto your mdesc is the last thing I want to see.

Only "examine person" now shows their wounds. That's not in this release, most likely, but the ability to see cause of death and remember where your wounds are(you are currently struck in different places on Arm, after all) is worth the work, in the long run. It could be changed someday so  that each area has a certain HP - a huge amount of damage to an arm or leg shouldn't kill you. No more death from shots in the arm. The possibilities are plentiful.

As for the three attacker limit on a target, heh: how many could surround a half-giant? What about ranged weapons such as long spears, how do they factor in? What about smaller versus larger attackers and smaller versus larger targets? Etc, etc, etc....

• Half-giants: OK, we could up the maximum attacker limit to 4-5. Hell, 8 is an improvement over the current system.
  
  
• Missiles into melee are handled well on SoI - they have a random chance of hitting either combatants, though I'm not sure about the actual mechanics.
  
  
• Smaller vrs larger attacks - minor details. The minor "problem" here of only 5 halflings being able to attack a half-giant is far less problematic than that of ten attackers somehow managing to to slice at one person.
  
  
• What do you mean, ect? You've brought up minor nitpicks, but no unfixable reasons for not changing the system. What else is there?
  

These changes won't ever be implemented, I bet, but it's my opinion that they're worth implementing. We don't have enough coders(SoI has two competent coders). Maybe we could start fundraising to hire a coder, or at least give Xygax more incentive. :wink:

[jmordetsky]

My only gripe with the combat on Arm is that it isn't conductive to roleplay. It's like slash, slash, slash and every emote I try to type ends because I'm trying to see whats going on.

I think if we just slowed it down everything would be fine.

Of course if you slowed it down, you'd need to up the damage of a blow because otherwise fights would last days.

As I see it, a problem with slowing combat down is it also reduces the likelihood of dying. Yes you could make it more elegant with the *possibility* of inserting a lot more emotes, but it also tends to negate the urgency of battle, of having to make instantaneous decisions, of keeping a cool head in a tense situation and finally overcoming.  Slowing it down drastically eeliminates the "fog of war",  allowing a person to make decisions in a leisurely manner, and as a side effect virtually removes the adrenaline factor that many live (and die) for.  

I don't disagree with you, but I think there needs to be a mid point. A friend of mine (another armer) once had a discussion about the "perfect system" that would balance the frenzy of the current Arm mass combat scroll and the laid back strategy of turn based combat. We found both to be lacking for a number of different reasons.

We ended up agreeing that some mingling of it might be the best way to go, that after typing kill you entered a series of rounds which would pass by as do normal combat rounds, durring which you could execute specialization commands like kick and bash and possibly kill or be killed by your opponent.

After N rounds, combat would end, at which point you execute a limited set of commands (flee, emote or kill, cast etc) at which point things would resume their normal course.

I'm sure there are holes in it, and as far as codability, I know in the few hours or so I looked at it to try and get a prototype up it seemed fairly difficult with a lot of code that needed to be changed.

[Cindrak]

Targeted combat.  That is you could target the head, hand, etc. -and- damage was location based. It was entirely possible to even lose a limb codedly after a combat. The only way to get it back was through magical means, you had to pay a healer.

The tall stately man says to the armless black-clad knight in sirihish:
   "Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left."

The armless black-clad knight says to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "Yes I have."

The tall stately man says to the armless black-clad knight in sirihish:
   "Look!"

The armless black-clad knight says to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "Just a flesh wound."

The armless black-clad knight headbutts the tall stately man in the chest.

The tall stately man says to the armless black-clad knight in sirihish:
   "Look, stop that."

The armless black-clad knight exclaims to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "Chicken! Chicken!"

The tall stately man exclaims to the armless black-clad knight in sirihish:
   "Look, I'll have your leg. Right!"

The tall stately man slashes the armless black-clad knight on his left hip, connecting hard.
The armless black-clad knight's left leg is severed at the hip and topples to the ground.

Hopping around on one leg, the one-legged armless black-clad knight exclaims to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "Right, I'll do you for that!"

The tall stately man asks the one-legged armless black-clad knight in sirihish:
   "You'll what?"

The one-legged armless black-clad knight exclaims to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "Come 'ere!"

The tall stately man asks the one-legged armless black-clad knight in sirihish:
   "What are you going to do, bleed on me?"

The one-legged armless black-clad knight exclaims to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "I'm invincible!"

The tall stately man says to the one-legged armless black-clad knight in sirihish:
   "You're a loony."

Hopping towards the tall stately man, the one-legged armless black-clad knight says to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on then."

The tall stately man slashes the one-legged armless black-clad knight very hard on his right hip.
The armless black-clad knight's right leg is severed at the hip and topples to the ground.
The limbless torso of the black-clad knight flops to the ground.
The limbless torso of the black-clad knight stops guarding the northern exit.

After a pause, the limbless torso of the black-clad knight says to the tall stately man in sirihish:
   "All right; we'll call it a draw."

The tall stately man says to a mottled brown kank in sirihish:
   "Come, Patsy."

The tall stately man walks north, leading a mottled brown kank.

The limbless torso of the black-clad knight shouts in sirihish:
   "Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!"

[/scene]

... with profound apologies to Monty Python, and everyone else, for this derailment.

[lazycritic]

Perhaps such a thing could be coded so that wound_locations could be easily removed, and thus left untargetable. Currently the same thing happens more often in the random attacks.

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

I'd make some additions to a "Donations to hire a coder" drive.

And since he's paid, we can make him work on what needs to be worked on, but no one wants to work on because it's a bitch.

I would trust the immortals to direct him theirselves, but i would like to see a list of what he's done and what he's working on. Just some transpareny for us, so the donaters can feel pleased and the non-donaters can see if it's worth it.

Seriously. I'd do it.

[Cindrak]

I'd make some additions to a "Donations to hire a coder" drive.

And since he's paid, we can make him work on what needs to be worked on, but no one wants to work on because it's a bitch.

I would trust the immortals to direct him theirselves, but i would like to see a list of what he's done and what he's working on. Just some transpareny for us, so the donaters can feel pleased and the non-donaters can see if it's worth it.

Seriously. I'd do it.

I would offer my services as a coder on projects that are considered too messy or unattractive to the other coders, gratis. I would only work on projects approved by the rest of the staff, to their exact specifications. I would only ask that I be allowed to pick from a short list of projects supplied to me.

Seriously, I'd do it.

I see a lot of things that need doing, and that a lot of people are clamoring for, which I do not think would be prohibitively difficult to accomplish. I also notice that people on this board have fairly low expectations of the coders, imagining that relatively simple projects would be huge undertakings, and therefore not worth even bringing up. It's not that the projects are particularly hard, it's that the coders all have their own projects they'd rather work on, and I can understand that.

I realize that I'm a bit of an outsider here, a newbie and all that, but I already feel at home here, and I would like to help Arm in any way I can. I've worked for several years on a MUD with a very small playerbase, implementing many projects in my free time, just as a hobby. That has been fun. I think it would be even more gratifying to work for a MUD that is alive and thriving (and hopefully, HELP it thrive.)

So, consider that a standing offer.

-Cindrak

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

First, You rock!

Second, immortal obersvation of these forums is haphazard, at best. Up to the individual immortal. If you are really interested in helping out, the best way to get started would be to email the mud accout with some basic info:

mud@armageddon.org

usually they only accept applications for new staff when they request them first, but since you would be strictly a coder, they might pick you up anyway. I don't know the mind of the staff, but it's definitely worth a shot by emailing the account.

Worst thing, they might ask you to send in a more complete application when they request apps for new staff.

Thanks again!

[amoeba]

I'd make some additions to a "Donations to hire a coder" drive.

This is a very slippery slope I'd hate to see us climb.   For a number of reasons.  One it gives a expectation of entiltement, and changes much of the focus on the mud.  Two, "good" coders are expensive.  A point of reference, a good, experienced "C"  coder in the southwest region makes about $60,000 - $80,000/year full time. Hourly the rates go between $125/hr to $225 and up.  Also there is more to what is asked than mearly "coding".    This is not a commercial mud, it is a volunteer mud run by and for people that enjoy it.  People start paying big sums of money, people start lining up with -thier- expectaions.  Finally there are confidentiallity issues here, the staff here is a known quanity and well vetted, taking in an outsider to examine the most secret inner working of the mud is problematic. Sure they could sign a no disclosure agreement, but who is paying the lawyers to enforce said contract.   I could go on, all in all this idea makes me very uncomfortable.

My 2 sid here.

[Maybe42or54]

I'll sign up for C, c++, and java classes, along with a few others and i'll app, again, for the next round of Imm hires.

And i agree with Amoeba.
Keep this sucker volunteer only. I don't want to not have a game anymore because a coder we hired stole the code and sold it to Iron realms so they could have another hack and slasher.

[jmordetsky]

I'd make some additions to a "Donations to hire a coder" drive.

And since he's paid, we can make him work on what needs to be worked on, but no one wants to work on because it's a bitch.

I would trust the immortals to direct him theirselves, but i would like to see a list of what he's done and what he's working on. Just some transpareny for us, so the donaters can feel pleased and the non-donaters can see if it's worth it.

Seriously. I'd do it.

I would offer my services as a coder on projects that are considered too messy or unattractive to the other coders, gratis. I would only work on projects approved by the rest of the staff, to their exact specifications. I would only ask that I be allowed to pick from a short list of projects supplied to me.

Seriously, I'd do it.

I see a lot of things that need doing, and that a lot of people are clamoring for, which I do not think would be prohibitively difficult to accomplish. I also notice that people on this board have fairly low expectations of the coders, imagining that relatively simple projects would be huge undertakings, and therefore not worth even bringing up. It's not that the projects are particularly hard, it's that the coders all have their own projects they'd rather work on, and I can understand that.

I realize that I'm a bit of an outsider here, a newbie and all that, but I already feel at home here, and I would like to help Arm in any way I can. I've worked for several years on a MUD with a very small playerbase, implementing many projects in my free time, just as a hobby. That has been fun. I think it would be even more gratifying to work for a MUD that is alive and thriving (and hopefully, HELP it thrive.)

So, consider that a standing offer.

-Cindrak

Apply for staff. The code is something that the staff is touchy about giving access to.  Which is for good reason, there have been a number of past abuses. If you really want to help, (and this obviously isn't a staff opinion) either:

1) Apply for staff and after a while you can probably help code

2) Download Diku, or SOI or something, and make the modifications on your own. Take the snippets of code you changed, write them up and email them to the mud. If they think it's a good job, and that the changes were worth it maybe they'll implement it here.  The other advantage here is that you or one of the other players could set you code up for people to try out and discuss if the changes work in practice rather then in theory.

*shrug*