Naming

[Cindrak]

How about being able to mentally "name" people so that in all future interactions with them you will see your name for them instead of their sdesc. It would be much easier to read emotes and says that have a lot of complex actions in them if you could quickly pick out a proper name or two in the middle of it all. Example for how it would work.

A smelly, greasy-bearded dwarf says, in sirihish:
 "I'm Zonk."

> name smelly zonk
Ok. You now know a smelly, greasy-bearded dwarf as Zonk.

Zonk grins up at you amiably.

------

Of course you'd have to deal with hoods somehow.

-Cindrak

[Cavus]

Em, most clients have this property, and actually I am using it. But, it can be nice though.

[Cindrak]

Yeah, I have my client set up to do it, I just figured it might be a nice in-game feature (especially since you wouldn't have to type the whole sdesc in, as you have to with a client). I did a search after posting this and discovered somebody else already posted this idea (in a thread called "naming names"). Oops, probably should've checked that first.

-Cindrak

[Bestatte]

You can use the alias command for exactly that.

The only problem is..if you run into someone ELSE who has "smelly" as a keyword (whether or not it's part of their sdesc).

You, the player, know you're not looking at Zonk. Your character also knows you're not looking at Zonk. But your alias doesn't know that.

The same problem would occur if a "naming" device existed in the game.

[da mitey warrior]

Most games use names and not Sdescs, and when you're new it's awkward and you wish it was changed to how it was in other games you've played.  But this is one of the features of the game, done intentionally to improve everyone's RP experience.  Once you get used to it you won't want to go back to names.

[WarriorPoet]

I find it hard to visualize and put a face to random names on the computer. However, it's not hard at all to put a name to that description there. It helps me visualize a -character- instead of just recognizing the name.

-WP

[Cuusardo]

It's not that difficult to crack open a text file and keep a list of sdescs and names.

[LBO]

I don't see why you should be able to automagickally remember everybody's name anyway. I never write down a thing. If I forget my character forgets and I'll roll with it, or maybe my head will if I forget something really important.

[Armaddict]

This idea has come up numerous times through the years, and I still hate it.

Mostly because of the fact you suddenly automagickally remember -everyone-'s names.  I prefer not even to use a text file, unless it's some incomprehensible name or spelling.  If it's forgotten, it's forgotten...no one has a perfect memory.

Edit:  Damn you, LBO, for beating me to it.

[Cindrak]

Using aliases, in-game or otherwise, is NOT the same. I'm suggesting that your name would be attached to the immediate character that you indicated with one of their keywords.

Here's a good illustration of a time when naming would be useful:

The scruffy, impertinent rat-man peruses his pack momentarily, then produces two golden eggs, handing one to the insane elf with hair of fire and one to a silky-skinned vision of elven beauty, and then turns his attention back to a crusty, pockmarked dwarf.

Now suppose you know the various characters involved, have seen their sdescs countless times, and don't need to be reminded over and over again that they are variously scruffy, insane, silky-skinned and pockmarked. You don't want to read for 10 seconds to get the import of one emote out of the many that are constantly popping up in a conserted roleplaying scene. If you have them named, this is what you would see:

Falthra peruses his pack momentarily, then produces three golden eggs, handing one to Keldar and one to Inge, before turning his attention back to Zonk.

Much nicer, I think. It lets me pick out the main protagonists very quickly and therefore parse the whole thing in a timely manner. For those who say it will cause you to lose a sense of what people actually look like, the advantage of doing it in code instead of forcing people to use the options available to them with a client is that you can have the descriptions show up in certain situations but not in others. For instance, looking at a room would be a good time to show the name you've assigned AND their description, e.g.:

Falthra, the scruffy, impertinent rat-man, is standing here.
Keldar, the insane elf with hair of fire, is sitting here.
...

To the old schoolers who prefer their notepad-full-o'-names, nobody would force you to use the naming system. All I'm talking about is adding options.

And as for the automatically remembering everyone forever, another advantage of doing it through the game code is that the game can put limitations on it. For instance, you could only have names for so many people, and then you would start to forget people you hadn't been around recently.

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

That reminds me of so many pseudo-rp hack'n slash muds it's disturbing.

I still adamantly disagree with the idea on the same basis.

[Cindrak]

What is hack-n-slash, per se, about the idea itself? Or is the mere fact of its being similar to something you've seen on hack-n-slash muds before an indelible black mark against it? I suppose we should get rid of exit indications in rooms too; they remind me of soooo many cookie-cutter DisneyMuds it's just sickening.  

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

Difference:

Room exit displays show your options in where you go.

Naming gives your character infallible memory as to who is who.  Ever play the mud Forest's edge?  You saw an sdesc until you 'introduced' yourself to them, when the display you just proposed became used.  It was supposed to be an rp mud...but after that, no one even pays attention to what they look like anymore.  Never know their keywords besides their name.  Forget what their best friend -looks- like.

The sdesc has worked for years and years and years, I don't see why a naming system needs to be added now.

[Cindrak]

Go back and read what I said about the infallible memory thing.
A) the desc would still show up in places where it wasn't necessary to abbreviate.
B) you would forget names periodically, due to passage of time, meeting too many new people, whatever.

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

Yeeeeaaah.  I still see no reason why the system needs to be changed, thusfar.

I'm against it, and probably won't post on this thread again because it seems repetitive.

I will say I prefer it the way it is, and if you don't...you should -probably- do as other people said they did and fix it up in your client.  My reasoning being that this -has- been brought up many times before, and never implemented.  So I doubt it will be changed now.  Not saying it -won't-, but it seems unlikely to me.

[Cindrak]

If it seems repetitive, that might be because you keep re-raising objections that I've already addressed. Something tells me you're not reading very carefully. Case in point: I mentioned that I already have this set up with my client. It's just not very ideal, because it eliminates the sdescs completely from the game, and creates exactly the kind of "infallible memory" that you're against. Hey, I'm against that too!

I respect that you, as a long-time player, are used to it being a certain way and just don't like the idea of many changes. Once again, I remind you that I'm just talking about *options*. If you're really concerned about combatting infallible memories, don't force players to create their own system, because it *will* be infallible. Keep it in the game code, so the game can put limitations on it.

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

*grumbles and posts again*

Agreed, I'm not reading very carefully.  Like I said.  This has been proposed a lot, and I've read these things before.  You say it's repetitive because I'm raising objections that you've already addressed.

Yeeeeaaah. I still see no reason why the system needs to be changed, thusfar.

That still needs to be addressed, to something beyond the point of 'I don't like sdescs in emotes.'

[Angela Christine]

I can see the benefit of the server doing it rather than the client program doing it, because your cliant can not tell the difference between the tall, muscular man at the bar and the tall, muscular man at the round table.  It is rare, but occasionally there will be two characters with identical sdescs around at the same time, sometimes even in the same room together, and they aren't actually twins they just have the same sdesc.  The server would know that the dark-haired man #1 is Scott, and the dark-haired man #2 is Steve.  That would be handy, because it is annoying to confuse Scott and Steve all the time if they are not really supposed to be identical twins.  

On the other hand, remembering names too well and forgetting appearance can be a problem.  Especially the part about forgetting what people look like, which is already sort of a problem.  Sometimes I am trying to describe someone without using their keywords, and I realize that I don't really know much about what they look like.  I might know that he is "the sepia-skinned man" and since I've seen him wearing his hood often I know that he is taller than me.  So then my character is scratching her head, peering up at the ceiling for inspiration muttering, "Well, he's got brown skin, and he's tall.  Uh, his favorite cloak is one of those desert camoflauged jobbies.  And he has a pair of those anakore clawed gloves, but he doesn't usually wear them in town anymore, not after the time he nearly cut off that waitress's finger when he took his mug of ale from her.  I think maybe that he might be missing one of the fingers on his left hand . . . no, wait, that's Amos.  Hmm.  Uh, well anyway, I'd know him if I saw him, we've been friends for years."   :roll:  

This is why I like people that routinely emote picking at their acne scars and stroking their grungy van dike beards, it reminds me what they look like (note: this only applys to features not mentioned in the sdesc.  If your sdesc says you are "the acne-scarred, bearded man" then it isn't necessary to keep reminding me about that in your emotes, instead point out your six toes, the fact that your beard is red, or that the persistant bitter smell of spice and stale whiskey constantly wafts from your skin and cloathing).  I usually don't pay much attention to the main description the first time I see it, because there is a bunch of other stuff going on.  And reading it later would require me to look at them again, perhaps earning their eternal emnity if they are among those that despise the look "spam" with a deep and abiding hatred.


Angela Christine

[Elgiva]

I like sdescs.
I like forgetting names of people.
I like making mistakes IG, it means my char is "just a human (elf, dwarf, mantis...)".
I do not want any naming thingie.
No matter if the idea is good or bad, IMO it is simply not needed/wanted.
I think trying to add it would eat time which otherwise IMMs use for animating NPC/plotting/eating my brainz.

[deinol]

While it makes things longer, you can set your substitions client side to show both:

Code Select Expand

#sub {%0the mean looking templar%1} {%0the mean looking templar (Lord Blackadder)%1}

Or some such thing. As I learn about people, I add all sorts of things, like which house they work for, and what their rank is, depending on what sort of information I think my character would remember about them. I remember putting simply: (mean) into a particular nobles sub, just to remind myself to be careful around them.

Or you can do it the old fashioned way, and keep notes. Just try to remember you need to forget all of that info when your character dies.

[Anonymous]

Yeeeeaaah. I still see no reason why the system needs to be changed, thusfar.

Well, now we've come down to it, haven't we. You can lead a man to the light, but you can't force him to open his eyes.

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

Oh my god!  My eyes have been opened, and I see the light!  The game has been -wrong- this entire time!

Let me bow down before the mighty player who has brought me away from the dark side where sdescs are shown in each emote!  Let me worship humbly as I now see the names of everyone I know and interact with, lessening the real life, excruciating hassle of remembering names and reading sdescs!  Allow me to start a cult based around this 'light' I've come upon from the ramblings of a new player!

Yes.  I'm rude.  Don't try to belittle me when I'm being patient with you.

[Cuusardo]

I personally like sdescs.  And everything else Elgiva said.

[Cindrak]

<snip laborious sarcasm>

Yes.  I'm rude.  Don't try to belittle me when I'm being patient with you.

Your patience, like your condescension, is not required. Have a nice day.

-Cindrak

[Armaddict]

Your patience, like your condescension, is not required. Have a nice day.

Much like this idea.

[Delirium]

Two things:

1) Don't feed the trolls.

2) Sdescs have been used for a long time, and help in many ways to foster role-playing and immersion. Give yourself time to get used to them and I am willing to bet that you will come to prefer them to seeing names all the time. Yes, emotes can get confusing when there are several references to people and objects in them, but that is the emoter's fault, not the fault of sdescs.

[Maybe42or54]

LOL


You are out on a raiding trip and you look north and see..
Ted is riding a yellow kank.


Ted is your best friend. But can you tell it is him from 3 miles or so?

[Bestatte]

Or even worse -

You can tell it's Ted from 3 rooms away, and you and he have never even been introduced to each other but someone told you that was his name when you saw him in a bar for 10 minutes, 3 months ago?

Gimme a freaking break.

If we would have to pretend we -don't- know someone after coding them a name, wouldn't it be much easier to pretend we don't know someone - without coding them a name?

[Cuusardo]

I think that putting in a code to name PCs would be like forcing everyone you meet IRL to wear a nametag all the time.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I like sdescs.
I like forgetting names of people.
I like making mistakes IG, it means my char is "just a human (elf, dwarf, mantis...)".

I like these things too.  I don't care if other players don't like them, because another thing I like is that they don't have the choice of not being subject to these things.

Welcome, Cindrak.  Stick around, get a GDB account, enjoy the game, ignore the rude people, and be sure and post any other ideas you may have.

[Anonymous]

Or even worse -

You can tell it's Ted from 3 rooms away, and you and he have never even been introduced to each other but someone told you that was his name when you saw him in a bar for 10 minutes, 3 months ago?

Gimme a freaking break.

I agree, ludicrous. So let's look at the options:
1) Leave it as it is now, and make people use their clients to get around the needlessly long emotes. Then, because there's only so much a client can do, they most definitely WILL see that guy 3 rooms away, and know exactly who he is, even if they only saw him in a bar for 10 minutes, 3 months ago.
2) Put name support in the code, and limit however you like. Make it so you can't make out people's faces more than 1 room away if you like. Make it so you forget people after x time has passed. Whatever people decide is appropriate. By keeping the code for it in-house, you ensure that it's limited however you like. By keeping it, uh, out-house, you ensure that a bunch of people will be walking around with flawless, interminable memories (not necessarily by their own choice.)

If we would have to pretend we -don't- know someone after coding them a name, wouldn't it be much easier to pretend we don't know someone - without coding them a name?

Once again... it would be an OPTION. You wouldn't have to use it. Sheesh, why do I have to keep saying this?

I like sdescs.
I like forgetting names of people.
I like making mistakes IG, it means my char is "just a human (elf, dwarf, mantis...)".

I like these things too. I don't care if other players don't like them, because another thing I like is that they don't have the choice of not being subject to these things.

Wrong. People do have the choice not to be subject to these things, and they are exercising it. As much as I'd like to forget people after a certain period of time, and not recognize them at a distance, and so on (I am a fan of realism), I will make do with a perfect memory if no better options are available to me.

Welcome, Cindrak. Stick around, get a GDB account, enjoy the game, ignore the rude people, and be sure and post any other ideas you may have.

Thanks, will do.

-Cindrak

[Dracul]

The lack thereof is one of armageddons charms in my opinion.

[LBO]

2) Put name support in the code, and limit however you like. Make it so you can't make out people's faces more than 1 room away if you like. Make it so you forget people after x time has passed. Whatever people decide is appropriate. By keeping the code for it in-house, you ensure that it's limited however you like. By keeping it, uh, out-house, you ensure that a bunch of people will be walking around with flawless, interminable memories (not necessarily by their own choice.)

Its not a bad idea - it has a certain realism to it but having the code arbitrarily deciding when a character forgets something seems wrong to me. To make it properly realistic would require an amount of coding that doesn't seem merited to me over what is something that the players can handle themselves. For example, you do not see your childhood friend for fifteen years... do you forget his name? I certainly don't. But I don't remember the name of the friend of a friend I met last Saturday night. So, the code would have to take into account how long you have spent with a particular person if it is going to accurately reflect the percentage chance that you will remember their name. Also, how do you reflect the differences between a person with excellent memory and a forgetful person? How do you take into account the difference between how some people are going to be very easily remembered (that guy with the crazy looking features) and that guy who is almost completely unremarkable. All this is something that would have to be done by the code for every PC in the game all the time if its to be realistic. Personally, I do not want the code to decide for me when I remember a name and when I do not - I can do it better myself.

Another to thing to consider maybe is that the people who are going around using their clients or creating detailed notepads to ensure that they have a perfect name memory for everybody they've ever met or not the kind of people who are going to use this new system anyway. They want perfection not something that might go wrong for them so they will keep on using their methods to get what they want. Realistic? No, but I doubt they care.

I understand what you are saying about the emote length and how you would like to see them appear for you. Personally, I do not think they are too long and I do not see this as an issue. Arm's method is common in RPI games from what I can see - I know that Shadow of Isildur uses a similar method - and I'm perfectly at home with it.

Make it toggleable you will say. The problem with this then is that those who already want a perfect memory will not use it. Those who prefer to let their common sense handle their memory and recognition will not use it. Those who do not see the current system as untidy and believe that not seeing names appear at all is more realistic will not use it. Its my opinion that to code a realistic naming ability that would take into account the kind of stuff that has been mentioned before would require a lot of effort and would not be used by a good number of players anyway. This is why I would be against the implementation of this idea though its not bad idea per se.

Wrong. People do have the choice not to be subject to these things, and they are exercising it. As much as I'd like to forget people after a certain period of time, and not recognize them at a distance, and so on (I am a fan of realism), I will make do with a perfect memory if no better options are available to me.

Why not just use your own memory? Why let the code do the work for you when you can do it yourself and more realistically too? I understand that you find the use of sdescs in emotes, etc. a little unwieldly looking at the moment seeing as you have probably come from a mud with the introduce feature but I would suggest giving it some time. I came from a mud which had plenty of colour and Arm seemed a little dead to me when I logged in first in that sense but it grew on me suprisingly quickly. You've come here to roleplay and you'll get that - the introduce feature at the end of the day is a minor thing in my opinion. Welcome and enjoy the game.

[Armaddict]

Keep in mind, you're talking about all these hard coded things to make it a viable idea...but that just increases the workload for the immortals with -still- very little benefit, and very little benefit to only a portion of the players, as well.

[Smoky]

Okay, let's say they put a naming function in for people to use.  Say you've got all these people's names so when you see them you just see a name and not an sdesc.   Then, let's say you need to have someone else find a person you know but they have no idea who you're talking about.  What's their sdesc?  You've just been seeing their name everytime you see them.

If you have trouble remembering peoples names and/or associating them with their sdesc, open up notepad and make yourself a little chart.  Stop trying to get the imms to code in a new command/function so can be more lazy, they've got enough work set ahead of them as is.

Smoky
"We all know 'mullet' means family man."

[Cindrak]

Okay, let's say they put a naming function in for people to use.  Say you've got all these people's names so when you see them you just see a name and not an sdesc.   Then, let's say you need to have someone else find a person you know but they have no idea who you're talking about.  What's their sdesc?  You've just been seeing their name everytime you see them.

Read the previous posts. I already addressed that concern, twice.

-Cindrak

[LBO]

Read the previous posts. I already addressed that concern, twice.

-Cindrak

Could you address the concerns then that I listed before, namely:

1) How would you determine which names the code would remove from your "memory" because you have not seen them for a certain period of time? What is this period of time? How would it be determined? Unless something is built into the code that determines how long you spend with a certain person, how important that person is to you, how distinguishable a person is, etc. you could end up "forgetting" that girl's name that you were crazily in love with before she disappeared for five years.

2) Why can you only remember a certain number of names as you mentioned before? How would you determine this number?

3) What about the situation where I remember the name of the person OOCly but I've "forgotten" it according to the code? Which should I go with? If you say that I should follow the code then I am being restricted by some arbitrary piece of code that is almost certainly not going to be as realistic as how I can handle the situation myself. If you say I should go with what I know OOCly and ignore the discrepancy with the code then the only point of this code is to make things, in your opinion, look a little neater on screen which I don't see the need for personally.

4) If it is toggleable then why spend all the time coding something that many players are not going to use and leave toggled off permanantly because: a) they prefer to use the more realistic code in their own heads? b) they already use a different method which is 100% perfect all the time c) they are already perfectly happy with the current look?

Its all very well throwing out the proposal of a simple naming function but if the code you propose is not going to be seriously flawed it would require a great deal of effort on the part of the Imms which could be far better spent elsewhere in my opinion on something that would possibly benefit all players.

[Xygax]

I don't know if it will quell the debate or not, but this feature seems highly unlikely to be implemented.  Being descended from Diku code, Arm did at one point have only names and no sdescs...  sdescs were implemented for a reason:  they make the RP experience more realistic.  Giving you an instant memory of anyone whose name you've taken the time to catalog goes directly against the intent of that feature.

I used to keep a notebook next to my terminal when playing Arm and would reference it whenever I heard a name mentioned or saw an sdesc.  I knew everyone by sight and kept notes on their activities whenever I overheard a conversation about them...

But then I realized that what I was doing was really a form of cheating.  Your character can't write, so why would you simulate keeping notes for them?  Your character probably isn't eidetic, either.

It's okay to have lapses in memory; it's a human thing.  People do it all the time in our world and in the virtual one we play out in Zalanthas..  If you forget Lord Templar Fancypants' middle name, you might get tortured.  Yup.  But you probably came here for the torture in the first place, didn't you?  Think about it.  

-- X

[amoeba]

Your character probably isn't eidetic, either.

Oh great you made me look up a word.  :?

I've experienced the name issue on other so called RP mandatory muds .  There you had to 'introduce' yourself in order for the other person to know your name. Quite frankly it felt forced and silly, and lead to people running around asking for people to introduce themselves. I much prefer it the way it is here.  

My contention is this, the person you are talking to in RL doesn't come with a label over thier head.  I try to rely on memory now, except for those people with the ridiculous names like Tkizfla and the like, those I scribble in a spiral bound notebook if I -need- to remember them.

[LoD]

In line with what Xygax mentioned, I don't think I'd like to see this as a built-in option to the code.  This is a text game.  Everything we visualize is allowed by reading the descriptions for people, objects, areas, environmental shifts, etc...

To me, replacing the sdesc with a name simply as a personal preference would be something the minority of people would want to do.  As you say, you can already do it - so I don't know that it needs to be addressed by anyone other than those few people that would like to see such a change.

As someone who played this game back when there were just names, I can tell you that I fully believe the experience is better without the names.  You associate people by how they look, not what their name is.  The main reasons I would not want to see this feature added to the coded universe of ArmageddonMUD are:

1. Encourages lazy play.  The demand on you to read and appreciate the descriptions people create is lessened, and that's not a good thing.

2. Creates more work for Immortals.

3. The advantage of implementation does not outweigh the work required.

4. To many, and I can relate, seeing names on the screen instead of sdesc's DOES remind us of Diku and H&S muds.  It's something that is almost 100% consistent to every kind of MUD we've tried to forget we played.  ArmageddonMUD has established itself as one of the few alternatives, and I don't really care for this feature to made readily available to anymore people than possible.

5. Can be abused.

I've seen this brought up on a couple of occasions in the past and don't believe it is something that will be adopted now, just as it wasn't something adopted then.  

I do have an opinion on Xygax's thoughts when he felt that keeping a written record of character's names being akin to "cheating".  To some degree I can understand, but I mostly disagree with this sentiment.  Not all of us have the time to spend 8-10 hours in the game every day interacting with other characters.  Some of us will only be on for a few hours a week, but our characters will be living in the gameworld 24/7.

For me to have to try and remember my comrade's names if our play times are off for a couple of weeks rather than just refer to notes I've made simply because I (in RL) can't remember does not make it cheating or wrong.  In fact, it seems quite normal and regular that our characters would remember those around us just as we do.

I still remember names of people I met 10 years ago, so...while I kind of understand where Xygax was going (infallible memories, especially as they pertain to people you may only meet once), I don't think keeping notes and names written down is in any way cheating yourself out of an experience.

-LoD

[Xygax]

I still remember names of people I met 10 years ago, so...while I kind of understand where Xygax was going (infallible memories, especially as they pertain to people you may only meet once), I don't think keeping notes and names written down is in any way cheating yourself out of an experience.

-LoD

Yeah, I think I may have misused the term "cheating", here.  I certainly wouldn't ever give the evil-eye to a player who told me they did just that.  I just felt that, for me, it was a crutch...  something I relied on too much and too readily, and something that overall detracted from my play.

-- X

[Larrath]

I use the Tab Completion feature in zMUD in order to keep track of names.  Just enter the first letter, hit tab and voila, the name in its glorious spelling.  Very useful for those difficult names.

About keeping notes, I keep notes for my PCs about things that they wouldn't forget.  If I'm playing a merchant, I might have a document with the value of various materials in certain regions, or a list of things I'd be able to get.
If I'm playing a spy, I'd probably keep a file about the activities of my targets.
Nothing really wrong with keeping a file about absolutely everything, though.

About names and sdescs, this is a problem simply because some people often like to work under fake names or aliases.  "Harry says, 'They call me Jozhal'" will just look strange.  Even worse than that, someone might even forget the nickname and slip into using the real name!  For a spy or a secret magicker, this can have serious implications.  I know that I found my PC in a position where he was ready to kill someone he interacted with if he heard them say his name.
Sometimes people simply don't want to introduce themselves, and it's also a little jarring.  Reading someone's short description gives a better image than just their name, especially in the case of scary-ass templars with cutesy names.  "The stern-faced, glowering templar" just gives a better image than "Shmooshi".
There are more reasons why this won't work very well, but those have been pretty much covered already.

[Cindrak]

Could you address the concerns then that I listed before, namely:

1) How would you determine which names the code would remove from your "memory" because you have not seen them for a certain period of time? What is this period of time? How would it be determined? Unless something is built into the code that determines how long you spend with a certain person, how important that person is to you, how distinguishable a person is, etc. you could end up "forgetting" that girl's name that you were crazily in love with before she disappeared for five years.

2) Why can you only remember a certain number of names as you mentioned before? How would you determine this number?

3) What about the situation where I remember the name of the person OOCly but I've "forgotten" it according to the code? Which should I go with? If you say that I should follow the code then I am being restricted by some arbitrary piece of code that is almost certainly not going to be as realistic as how I can handle the situation myself. If you say I should go with what I know OOCly and ignore the discrepancy with the code then the only point of this code is to make things, in your opinion, look a little neater on screen which I don't see the need for personally.

I would always err on the side of your real memory, or your "RP memory", whatever you want that to be, since as you rightly point out the code has no way of knowing your best friend from someone you asked for directions. For this reason there could be a simple parallel command, "forget", to override the code when it goes wrong. Likewise, you could re-name people if the code thought you had forgot, and you disagreed. But I have a feeling someone like you wouldn't use it at all, and that's just fine.

4) If it is toggleable then why spend all the time coding something that many players are not going to use and leave toggled off permanantly because: a) they prefer to use the more realistic code in their own heads? b) they already use a different method which is 100% perfect all the time c) they are already perfectly happy with the current look?

You're making certain assumptions which may or may not be true. It'd be nice to see a poll as to how many people would use it.

Its all very well throwing out the proposal of a simple naming function but if the code you propose is not going to be seriously flawed it would require a great deal of effort on the part of the Imms which could be far better spent elsewhere in my opinion on something that would possibly benefit all players.

I don't think it would be that much work, and I'm not speaking from total ignorance when I say that. And I don't agree with this bashing of other people's ideas (which would have no bearing on your gameplay at all) simply because you don't want them to be in competition with YOUR ideas for the hearts and minds of the coders. Let the coders prioritize however they want.

-Cindrak

[Bestatte]

I don't think a poll is necessary. Though it's great that you come up with ideas, you have to accept that they aren't all going to be liked. If you truly felt otherwise, you should have idea'd it in game or e-mailed mud, and not posted here on the forum.

As it stands now, from what I can see in this thread, there is -one- person who sincerely likes this idea. Everyone else who has posted doesn't - including one IMM.

We don't all represent the entire player base, but neither does the population of people who respond to polls. I think it's safe to assume that it's just one of those ideas that sounded good at the time, but just isn't going to happen in the game. We've all had them, there's no shame in it and no harm in it. As for a poll, my vote would be "let this one drop and keep coming up with other ones."

[Cindrak]

About names and sdescs, this is a problem simply because some people often like to work under fake names or aliases.  "Harry says, 'They call me Jozhal'" will just look strange.  Even worse than that, someone might even forget the nickname and slip into using the real name!  For a spy or a secret magicker, this can have serious implications.  I know that I found my PC in a position where he was ready to kill someone he interacted with if he heard them say his name.
Sometimes people simply don't want to introduce themselves, and it's also a little jarring.  Reading someone's short description gives a better image than just their name, especially in the case of scary-ass templars with cutesy names.  "The stern-faced, glowering templar" just gives a better image than "Shmooshi".

What I am proposing is not an introduction system. You could 'name' people whatever you wanted, regardless of how they introduced themselves to you. You could give out fake aliases to people all you wanted, and they wouldn't be the wiser, because the alias you gave them, once they named you, would work just as well as any of your "real" keywords.

You provide a great example for why this system would be superior to the current one. Currently you really can't give people an alias without them knowing it's an alias because when they try to use your alias it doesn't work. I know, I know, this is a situation in which you should roleplay along and pretend you're none the wiser. But let's face it, we're playing a MUD rather than sitting around in a chatroom with a GM for a reason: because a MUD supplies some structure and boundaries. I don't want to have to roleplay everything, I want the MUD to take care of some realistic game mechanics for me.

Why should people even key to their real names? The answer of course is because it's a convenient shorthand, based on the presumption that you know someone. But there is nothing intrinsic about you that should allow people to look <your name> and see you. A name is really just a handle that someone attaches to you, in their mind. Think about the mechanics of a real-world introduction. You tell someone your name, or maybe you give them a fictitious name, but it's all the same to them. They now associate your face with that name. Or, maybe your name goes in one ear and out the other. It's up to the person hearing your name to decide whether they will remember it. Or maybe you don't tell them your name, but they develop a nickname for you in their mind, like "Lumpy" based on your appearance.  Whenever you see them, the word "Lumpy" pops into your mind. "Heh, there goes Lumpy... good old Lumpy!"

These are things that a naming system would facilitate. I'm talking about a way to register with the game that you are aware of a person as an individual, and would like them to appear to you as a name rather than a face in a crowd. Or rather, as a name and a face. It's not an introduction system, and I've never seen this system implemented on any other MUD (I have played muds with introductions, and I agree with what others have said about it.)

-Cindrak

[LBO]

I don't think it would be that much work, and I'm not speaking from total ignorance when I say that. And I don't agree with this bashing of other people's ideas (which would have no bearing on your gameplay at all) simply because you don't want them to be in competition with YOUR ideas for the hearts and minds of the coders. Let the coders prioritize however they want.

-Cindrak

1) I'm not bashing your idea simply because I don't want them to be in competition with MY ideas. I simply do not agree with this idea and have explained my reasons why. Bashing an idea would be saying "This idea sucks, its full of shite". I have politely explained my reasons for not wanting this implemented. If this is not acceptable to you then, well, I won't lose any sleep over it.

2) Let the coders decide? Uh, I don't see anywhere where I was telling the coders what to prioritise. I gave my opinion that I would prefer to see other things been worked on - I believe that I am allowed proffer an opinion of my own.

3) You should note that everything I have written before was clearly stated to be in my opinion. I'm sorry if it does not agree with your opinion but mine is just as valid as yours I'm afraid. By all means continue to advance your opinions, I'm done anyway on this thread as this is one idea that is clearly not going to be implemented anytime thankfully.

[LoD]

Cindrak -

I just don't see the justifiable return on the investment of time making this change would have on the game.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that many of the Imm staff likely feel a change from "shorthand" to sdesc's was a desired and deliberate change from the past.

This would lead me to believe the Imm Staff felt sdesc's provided a superior role playing environment.  Any code toward your suggestion would only close the gap between what they were trying to move away from years and years ago.  And it was a change I supported then and now as being a better way to do things.

I've encountered plenty of people over the years that don't provide me with a name included in their keywords.  My first thought isn't about how I can implement a coded answer to people wanting to shield their names.  I just write it down on wordpad and use a keyword in their description.

You mention how in real life we introduce one another and then go by those labels - but that's not a fair comparison.  In real life we are normally assimilating both visual and audible messages.  We hear their name, we see their face and we make the connection from that point forward.  In a text environment, that is not the case.  All we have is their description (and only their sdesc without being proactive) to make a connection to whom they are.

So, while I understand your need to trim down the system and allow yourself an easy way to identify people in a way you find appealing, I think that the proposed change takes away something from your level of interaction and immersion in the game.  You don't have a person to look at anymore when you see Jimmy enters the room.  You have to remember what Jimmy looks like from the first time you ever met them and changed their name.

You've supplied possible solutions for this by including both name and sdesc in the adjusted title, but my point still remains that your idea:

A) Wouldn't benefit enough people to warrant the work.
B) Lessens the impact and level of immersion that text can provide.
C) Goes against the ideals for enforced role play that brought about the removal of names as descriptors in the first place.

This is a selfish idea, not one that comes from a desire to bring about a higher level of immersion or role play to the game.  That's one of the reasons why you don't see more support.  And continuing to promote it when the majority of the responses (one being from the Imm staff) politely and perhaps bluntly oppose it will only force people to take your future proposals less seriously.

If you want your idea to be critiqued, then be prepared for the chance that it may not be accepted or wanted by your audience.  And, in that case, there's a line to draw with how far you will draw out its debate.

-LoD

[Cindrak]

This is a selfish idea, not one that comes from a desire to bring about a higher level of immersion or role play to the game.

Whoah. You can read my desires. You're good!
...
After a moment of introspection, I think you're wrong about me. The reason I've dragged out this debate is that people keep giving reactionary responses like "Eww, that's so DIKU!" and otherwise generally misinterpreting my idea. When people post red herring objections, I feel compelled to correct them. I am fully prepared to accept criticisms of my idea, provided that they are criticisms of MY IDEA and not some strawman idea cobbled together from your various superstitions about DikuMUDs and intro systems.

Here are what I consider to be the most valid (e.g., least red herring) objections raised so far:
1) It takes time to code, and most people wouldn't use it. (I'd take that bet on the second part though)
2) It's inherently flawed, because the code can't know how well you know people.
3) It's always been this way, and I love it just how it is and don't want people to even have the option of doing it any other way than I do (semi-red herring, because we already do have the option not to do it your way, with a client.)

Point 3 is I think the strongest motivating factor in most of these posts: the distrust of the new. It's a valid objection not because it's logical (for reasons I've pointed out) but because it reflects the strong beliefs of the entrenched culture here, and that should always be considered.

Anyway, I'm done posting on this thread until someone scrawls out another red herring. I can't stand to see my arguments misconstrued. So that's fair warning to you all.

-Cindrak

[Larrath]

The suggestion, then, is this?

A command called Remember/Name (coupled with Forget to cancel its effect) that will add a keyword to a PC or NPC that will be unique and visible only to your PC (only you will be able to refer to Senior Lord Jack as Daddy), and others attempting to use this keyword on the target would be unable to do so.
When used on a target, it will replace all instances of their sdesc (the PC's, not other tall, muscular men) with the name given to them?

I see limited benefits to this command:
1) People won't confuse their tall, muscular best friend from the tall, muscular guy that's always annoying the living hell out of them.
2) People will become able to place false aliases on contacts, though they'd know the alias is false because they'd be able to try it out with Assess first.
3) People might place lesser emphasis on using sdescs as people's names for that perfect identification.  The vast majority of the MUD doesn't seem to care about this nearly as much as I do, though.

I see the following issues:
1) This will probably inflate the filesize of any character that used this, because the information has to be stored somewhere.
2) It's not going to be widely used, and one-to-ten players can easily open a notebook or create a file using Notepad, Excel or any equivalent in order to make their database.
3) This will completely destroy any possibility of misidentification.  Misidentification is rare enough as it is, and it's really just great.
4) Bugs could make it possible to give a name to a hooded figure or a hidden figure, meaning that one will be able to recognize a secret criminal/magickers/whatever by clever use of this.  (Remember shadow Evildude;e;e;e;e;contact Evildude;psi I know what you did/grab the sdesc).

I don't see why we need this feature.

[Ali]

3) It's always been this way, and I love it just how it is

I have to agree with that snip - a good number of the posts in this thread (and a lot of the other threads here) base their arguments on tradition, and shun anything that seems too different.

When used on a target, it will replace all instances of their sdesc (the PC's, not other tall, muscular men) with the name given to them?

From what I understood, it would replace the sdesc in some instances and be added to the sdesc in others. "Joe smiles at JimBob." vs. "Joe, a tall, muscular man, is standing here." or "Joe, a tall, muscular man, arrives from the north." In an emote where you might be interacting with two or three other people, having some or all of the sdescs replaced with names would shorten the sentence considerably.

I see the following issues:
1) This will probably inflate the filesize of any character that used this, because the information has to be stored somewhere.

I've played on muds with introduction systems and they manage, so something like this wouldn't be much different, I bet. (I've also never had problems remembering what people looked like after we had been introduced - I recall that as a worry someone else posted in the thread.) Number 2 really depends on the individual...I would use something like that, because it's easier to have it in-game than to have to switch back and forth.

I'm not really sure how it would serve to destroy the possibility of misidentification...could you clarify that? As for bugs, well, that's what testing is for, and players reporting bugs when they're found so they can be fixed.

I like the idea. It would certainly make long emotes easier to read, and it's entirely up to the player to use it or not use it as they see fit. Let's not dismiss it immediately just because it's reminiscent of a feature some hack-n-slash games have.

[Elgiva]

Let's not dismiss it immediately just because it's reminiscent of a feature some hack-n-slash games have.

Look above, there are another reasons mentioned there.

As Larrath said... I don't see why we need this feature. But I see some reasons why we do -not- need it.

Ali - Joined: 01 Apr 2005, Total posts:  1

...mhmmm.

[Maybe42or54]

Good joke Ali.

Aside from that, i for one am not looking forward to something else that may or may not ruin the game for me by letting meinhumanly remember everyone I see.

[Rhyden]

Ali - Joined: 01 Apr 2005, Total posts:  1

...mhmmm.

[derailmentation="A Brief Rant from Rhyden"]

I don't judge people by their GDB commencing date. In fact, I had 2 GDB accounts before this one therefore mine isn't completely accurate to the date I began Arm.  Agreed with Maybe ^

[/derailmentation]

Back to the naming, I don't like it at all. When I see somebody, I won't automatically remember their name the exact second I see them. Even people I've known for a while, I'll be like: "Hey....um....you...."

Remember names ICly by descriptions, if you can't remember a name, tuff, play it out.

[Bestatte]

Sometimes I call my sister by my aunt's name. My grandmother used to call EACH of her three daughters "ShirleyJoyceMarilyn" because she could never remember which was which, and figured a combination of all three would do the trick just fine.

My mom has called my sister and I by each others' names too often to count. My husband has occasionally referred to his mother as Dad. My cat answers to whatever name I call her at any given moment, as long as I'm shaking a bag of dry food in my hand.

I see no reason for such a code change, but I can see reasons to not have it. It has nothing to do with what I'm used to, since this is the ONLY game I've played that didn't automatically have the name attached to the description.

Some people will take the easy way out, and use that easy way, even when it isn't appropriate to do so. I see this suggested change a method to do exactly that, even if the person presenting the suggestion didn't intend it that way. I feel that the risk of people using it inappropriately far outweighs the possibility that people will use it ONLY as and when needed, and for -that- reason I am opposed to it.

[jmordetsky]

MUDS THAT DISPLAY NAMES LICK NUTZ

I once, sometime ago searched for other rp muds....

Two things that got me to drop a mud within the first looksee:

1) Names.
2) No app.

Names suck. I don;t know who you are. If I forget your name.....well...then I forgot your name.

Issue closed.

[EvilRoeSlade]

But then I realized that what I was doing was really a form of cheating.  Your character can't write, so why would you simulate keeping notes for them?  Your character probably isn't eidetic, either.

I don't see that as cheating, because my History classes have taught me that the people of ancient times had prodigious memories that far surpass our modern ones, and the reason is precisely BECAUSE they couldn't read.

[Sokotra]

NO!  Don't do it!  Heh, just had to get my opinion in here... I hate this idea, not because it wouldn't be helpful or whatever... but because the sdesc is a huge part of the game that makes Armageddon stand out from most others out there.  It is like you are seeing a person, and not just another name on the screen.

This is one of the reasons I really latched onto the game when I first started playing.  I just thought it much more realistic to see the sdesc instead of a name.  Whether you know them or not, at a distance you might not be so sure.  If this idea was implemented, I would keep it turned OFF (if a preference was available) because even though you may know the person I still feel it adds much to the feel of the game, just seeing the sdesc... like I said, it's like you are actually seeing a person, and not just a name.  You visualize the words on the screen in Zalanthas as pictures and images and it helps you get into the game.

There, my vote has been voiced.  That being said, if it were to be implemented then there would have to be many things to take into consideration in the coding of such.  Distance, clothing, cloaks, sand storms, people that look alike, etc.. and in order to make it realistic, you may not always be able to positively identify the person.

[Armaddict]

It's hilarious that someone without an account on the gdb starts a thread, then creates accounts to support their idea.

I think the general consensus for this idea is no.

[Cindrak]

It's hilarious that someone without an account on the gdb starts a thread, then creates accounts to support their idea.

I think the general consensus for this idea is no.

I have only posted under this name. Thanks.

-Cindrak

[lazycritic]

But then I realized that what I was doing was really a form of cheating. Your character can't write, so why would you simulate keeping notes for them? Your character probably isn't eidetic, either.

Then there's the obvious point, to those who think about it, that while I live in Earth and have hundreds of names to remember here, my character lives in Zalanthas, and uses his own memory(apart from mine) to remember everything about his life.

If you find that you can remember everything you need to in RL as well as everything your character remembers names, bravo. You've just proved that a remember command would not be unreasonable. If you want to forget a name, RP it. Don't tell all of the people who play 10+ hours a week(rather than 40, like some) they need to remember all the shit from both sides.

With that said, notepads and clients work well enough for this. I don't want to see a remember command.

[Angela Christine]

But then I realized that what I was doing was really a form of cheating.  Your character can't write, so why would you simulate keeping notes for them?  Your character probably isn't eidetic, either.

I don't see that as cheating, because my History classes have taught me that the people of ancient times had prodigious memories that far surpass our modern ones, and the reason is precisely BECAUSE they couldn't read.

Not to mention that the characters are in their world 100% of the time, while even the most avid players are usually hooked up less than 50% of the time.  Characters have just one life, but in a sense players have several lives.  Players have to remember their character's aquaintences, their RL aquaintences, possibly characters in other games, all the while trying to forget information learned by their previous characters.  My character's life is more important to her than it is to me.

My character also gets more sensory input than I do, more things to jog her memory.


My personal comfort level says paper notes are ok.  That enhances my character's memory to a reasonable point, but isn't fast or automatic.  The fact that my handwriting sucks adds a realistic margine of error.    My character may still forget names, but from a game mechanics point of view it is important for me to remember how to spell their name, otherwise I have to target them with another keyword like "man" or "brown" which is likely to lead to confusion.  Bleh.


Angela Christine

[Yokunama]

It's not that difficult to crack open a text file and keep a list of sdescs and names.

Yes, that is the way I go about remembering other characters, but I do not include the sdecs in the helpfile, because I can usually tie the name to the sdesc, somehow.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't inherantly hate this idea. I think it has its merits, and certianly its dismerits. I, however, have not a negative nor positive view on the issue. I want to see so many other things first.

Cindrak, I think the key here is that you enjoy the game enough to want to add to and improve it. I think that maybe others are not understanding that point. You'll play Armageddon whether or not your ideas are implemented, and you, like me, like to be convinced that your idea is wrong before you drop it.

I have no problem with that, and in fact, I welcome you wholeheartedly to our community.

[Cindrak]

I don't inherantly hate this idea. I think it has its merits, and certianly its dismerits. I, however, have not a negative nor positive view on the issue. I want to see so many other things first.

I've more or less come around to this way of thinking. I still think it would be nice, but it's far from pressing. Thanks for the warm welcome.

-Cindrak

[RunningMountain]

I don't see anything wrong with using a text document.

[RunningMountain]

Oops.