Reach

[charas]

Hi,

I just wondered if the code considers the reach of weapons as when someone wielding a dagger fights someone wielding a long, two handed spear. From my, admittedly limited experiences, it apears to be not so at all. In real life, reach is a crucial factor whether in armed or unarmed combat. Anyway, just a thought.

Cheerio

[wizturbo]

Certain weapons have bonuses to defense or parrying that reflect either the length at which they are wielded, or their natural defensive nature.

[Alamos]

The reach of a weapon can be as much as an advantage as a disadvantage.  The reach of the long spear is detrimental if someone using daggers can get in close and stay there.  Similarly, if the spearman can effectively keep the knife fighter at range, he'll win the day.  Thus, I'd say your skill in using your weapon's reach effectively is more important than the reach itself.

[Aldiel]

I agree with you charas, a guy with a spear would have a significant advantage over a guy with a knife.  I think that's a pretty standard rule of thumb, "Always work from longest to shortest."  Let's say I'm at a bar and some guy strikes off toward me.  I've called his mom something dreadful, and he's looking ready to mangle me.  Well, I would pick up the bottle of Heineken on the countertop, and I would chuck it at his face.  When he's closer, I'd loose a kick at the back of his calf, kneecap or something; then, when he's between my legs, I'd strike out with my fists, and, then, when he's got his burly arms wrapped around my torso, snapping my spine in half, I'd drive my forehead into his face repeatedly.  But, I also agree with Alamos, the tavern-brawler who got between my legs did then have a great advantage had he been more skilled at punching than I was.  The thing is though, the guy with the leg or the spear still has the chance to hit first, which is –always- a huge advantage, even when counter fighting.
   But even though I agree with you charas, how much can simple statistics and ratios encapsulate range?  A dwarf has stout arms, thus would have a great disadvantage when fighting almost any other race, but he is also smaller, so picking him off with a range weapon might be more difficult.  I think if you try bringing size to far into Armageddon, you're liable of making things really confusing, and probably not as much fun.

[moab]

Let's see...

Wizturbo - tell us - how do you know about these bonuses?  Are you making an assumption based on something you've seen or do you know?

Reach is as much a disadvantage as it is an advantage.  Once you're inside the reach of a weapon, a much shorter weapon is far more useful.

If you have a spear and someone is belly to belly with you, their short sword is going to have the advantage.

A long weapon only has an advantage when the target can not close distance for some reason.  If a single man is fighting another, the man with the longer weapon only has an advantage if the man with the shorter weapon isn't skilled or confident enough to close distance.

Further, the first strike advanage of a long weapon (the thrust with a spear, for example) as a target tries to close distance can be used against the lone spear wielder.  The attacker is off-balance, he is committed (and has opened up lines for attack)  and is able to get his weapon disarmed.

Things change in group combat, but I just wanted to put that out there.

[charas]

I totally agree with Alamos and had that in mind when writing the note, point is the daggerguy needs to get from pyke/spear range to sword range and again one closer to hand to hand range, until then he should not be able to hurt the spear guy at all, on the other hand the spearguy will have increasing problems using his spear as the daggerguy gets closer to the point (hand to hand range) where his spear becomes utterly useless, except for trying to push his opponent back again. Until then the spearguy has all the time to impale his enemy as he tries desperately to get close enough. Also I picture it "quite hard" to deflect a two handed spear thrust or, while we're at it, a twohanded longsword slash with a dagger or knife. I also agree with Aldiel though, that this is a complicated thing to implement, maybe I'll just settle with not bothering to go at a spearguy with only a dagger in hand myself or tell people to use a decent weapon when they try to get at my spearguy with only a dagger...

[Armaddict]

Use a spear if you want to.  Don't change the character concept or character itself because of alleged 'bonuses'.

[Delirium]

I think that being able to keep in or out of range is reflected perfectly fine in the weapon skills of your character. Emote it out if you wish, based on how well you are doing in combat. Maybe the reason that guy can't hit you with his dagger is because you are keeping out of his range.

[wizturbo]

Wizturbo - tell us - how do you know about these bonuses?  Are you making an assumption based on something you've seen or do you know?

Its pretty well known that items like parrying daggers have defensive bonuses to them.  There are some spears in game that clearly state in their descriptions that they're well suited for parrying enemies blows.  I won't tell you which items, because you can find them in game and read their descriptions yourself.  Is every single weapon in the game coded to be as realistic as possible, probably not, but there are definitely some which are and they tend to advertise their strengths blatantly in their description.  

I recommend speaking to a Salarri merchant in game, i'm pretty sure they can line you up with a weapon that codedly reflects what your looking for.  It'll cost ya though, gotta love mercantilism.

[Alamos]

maybe I'll just settle with not bothering to go at a spearguy with only a dagger in hand myself or tell people to use a decent weapon when they try to get at my spearguy with only a dagger...

I wouldn't try to be the RP police on this issue.  I believe its fine to assume your skills take into account your ability to fight at your weapon's effective range.

[Aldiel]

I wouldn't try to be the RP police on this issue.  I believe its fine to assume your skills take into account your ability to fight at your weapon's effective range.[/quote]

Well stated Aly.

[Aldiel]

I wouldn't try to be the RP police on this issue.  I believe its fine to assume your skills take into account your ability to fight at your weapon's effective range.[/quote]

Well stated Aly.

[Jorlain]

So, a spear has no close-combat capabilities?

When they're at long range, you jab them.

When they're in close range, you smash them with the butt of the spear.

In all reality, if you're confident enough to use a spear for close combat to begin with, you're more than capable enough to keep your opponent far enough away from you to harm you. At no time should they be within reach to hit anything other than your arms, or hands if you're not careful. A spear isn't much more than a staff with a head on it. So, when they're too close to jab, you'd have an effective staff. And staves are very effect close combat weapons.

So, I'd like to say, that yes, long weapons such as a spear should have (if they don't already have) bonuses against shorter weapons, such as daggers, knives, and so on.

[Agent_137]

I'd like to leave this all to RP.

There've been many times i've emoted working close to an enemy with swords while they flail with spears, rendering the spears ineffective.

Of course, I only did this when I had better combat skills than them.

If my combat skills were lesser, I would emote trying to work in close, but them keeping at bay with those pointy ends.

Though i will say, attacking anybody who has a real weapon and armor with only a dagger is fucking ludicrous, RP-wise and maybe code-wise. It's even sillier when attacking a beast. I don't see much of this, but, when I do, uhg.
Please whip out a longknife or a short spear or something built for more than a knife fight in an alley.

[fearwig]

Yeah, killing scrab with a knife is pretty laughable. But you know what? I bet it works just fine, in the code. I would be inclined to wager that length isn't really taken much into account in the combat code, being that it's very often the sort of thing overlooked in a mud.

I'd also point out that daggers and spears are of course in the same weapon class, because of the way it's organized. I can't say that was a "with it" moment for the coders, however much I respect their work.