Merchants and Containers

[fearwig]

There are dozens of types of merchants who sell containers (backpacks, for instance), but few to none who ever buy them. Take the default newbie packs, for instance--perfectly good things wind up being wasted, because few to no NPCs will buy them, and no PC has any need for one. That doesn't sound very Zalanthan to me.

I actually know this problem from other diku-based muds as well, and I wonder if it's not based on an oddity of the original code that just never got worked out--containers being a separate sales class that's often neglected, et cetera.

Now that I think about it, it's awfully hard to sell hooded cloaks, too. What gives?

EDIT:

It would also be nice to see packs wear out faster than most other items, considering how much strain they're put under on a regular basis. Maybe people would learn to appreciate them if you can both make them valuable in the market and items of regular need.

[Angela Christine]

There are shops in every major town (though the Allanak one is tricky) that buys container objects, but they are weird objects.  You may not have trouble selling hooded cloaks, its the cloaks with pockets (which may also have hoods) that are the problem because they are containers.  Spiral-carved incense burners are containers too, and so they can be hard to get rid of.   So the shop that buys backpacks also buys clothes with pockets, vases, incense burners, wooden chests, shelves, pouches, boxes, bags, bowls, etc.   Go figure.

On the up side, at least if you are a half-giant, container objects don't have a clothing size even if they are wearable clothing.  So a pair of pants with pockets will fit -anyone- from halfling to half-giant.  If you play a half-giant, you probably consider this a feature, because it costs a fortune for half-giants to find clothes in their size.


AC

[fearwig]

A feature... but a stupid feature, you have to admit. Or, to be accurate: a bug.

[spawnloser]

Actually hooded cloaks are not coded as containers, even though they are containers.  From my experience with Diku code, they are coded as clothing, and thus can be sold to people that buy clothing.

Backpacks on the other hand are object type 'container' and not many merchants are set to buy containers.

What is a bug?  That noone but those few wil buy containers?  I don't think so.  If you think that other merchants should buy containers, send an email to the mud about which shops you think should buy them.

[mansa]

If you sell a backpack full of goodies to merchants who -buy- them, the code automagickally dumps everything in the backpack to the floor.

[fearwig]

What is a bug?  That noone but those few wil buy containers?  I don't think so.  

Then why do so many sell them? Hmm? Containers often are clothing. The fact that they're separated is a code issue. I don't think there's a big IC distinction, mind you--clothiers sell what clothiers think people will buy, they don't say "Haw haw! You want to sell me pants with POCKETS? Haw haw!"

Very silly, really. Unrealistic. Especially when you consider that many of these merchants are coded to sell containers as well as their standard merchandise, and simply not to buy them.

This is something that needs to be rethinked on a broad, systematic scale. A big revamp, in other words, at least from the perspective I'm seeing it. That's a lot of merchants.

[fearwig]

What is a bug?  That noone but those few wil buy containers?  

And, to respond to you more precisely: No, that's not what I called a bug, because you didn't choose to read the post right above mine, did you? The "bug" is that half-giants can wear all containers without tailoring, even pants with pockets, and that all of these items are unnecessarily classified distinctly from regular containers like backpacks.

[spawnloser]

Only clothing and armor has sizes.  Do you consider it a bug that a half-giant can wield a knife taken from a halfling corpse?

Pants with pockets are NOT containers as far as code goes.  They are clothing.  They have a size.

As I said before, this is a limitation of DIKU code.

As I said before, if you think more merchants should buy items coded as containers, you should communicate which merchants you think should to the staff.

[fearwig]

That would be pointlessly tedious--there are lots, and lots, and lots of merchants this would apply to, and I don't have the capacity to go around scouting them out, as a player confined by IC logic from scouting out the Known World, checking the sdescs of its merchants. But for your information, I've idea'd up on the matter. I was looking for discussion on the topic.

It is a limitation produced by Diku--but it's not a necessary one, that's my point.

[spawnloser]

Well, shopkeepers can be set to buy containers.  The staff just needs to do so.

As far as it being an unnecessary restriction, what do you suggest?  We switch to another code base?

[fearwig]

I fail to see exactly how you suppose the entire code base of Armageddon revolves around the principle that containers and clothing items are necessarily distinct. This is modified Diku. That would be the entire point, thanks.

But no, really--the pointless sarcasm is wonderful. Keep me entertained.


Edit: Alright, I'll be good. My real point is just that most clothiers wouldn't mind at all to buy items like bone-studded backpacks and dark, hooded cloaks, while they're dealing in every other piddly wearable odd and end that is of considerably less value. It makes sense that this shoudl be the default, but it is currently being overlooked, that's all.

[spawnloser]

Are you trying to start an argument?  Seriously, I told you the answer to one of your problems, talk to the staff about who you thinks should buy containers.  The other problem (that jewelry, containers and weapons can be used by the smallest and the largest) may be fixable, but from what I understand is not...it is a limitation of the code.  If you don't like that answer, tough.  Bug it anyway and hope the staff figures out a way to fix it, but don't argue with me about it.

[fearwig]

Give me a break, man. Not everyone is trying to "start an argument" just because they don't bow to your replies like they're commandments from on high.

If you don't want to talk about it, don't respond, yes?

I think I made a reasonable point, and I am obviously on the forums to talk about it. If you are here only to tell me to email the mud, an option I have already obviously taken into account, then well, you probably don't have a whole lot to offer to the thread. Your last post shows that you're not even really following the point of what I was trying to say, anyway--I don't give a damn whether giants can use tiny knives. My point was about containers being so codedly separate from clothing, even when it's not really necessary. Maybe it'd be too much effort to reflect that in the code--that might be a reasonable response. But to say it's impossible is evidence of a pretty meager understanding of mud coding in general.

[fearwig]

Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to try and move the train back on track after this derailment:

If pants with pockets aren't containers, but rather are clothes--why can't all containers that are wearable be approached in the same manner? That would naturally allow them to be bought and sold freely as the pieces of clothing they are, not the mysterious foreign objects 95% of clothes merchants are afraid to deal in.

[Trenidor]

Junk the newbie clothes then buy new with your start money

Sell container Items to PCs...Noble lord dudeakin would love a new fangled incense burner!

NPCs are useless in my mind.

[fearwig]

Well, they are people too, I say. And who has a need for a container when they're sold everywhere, bought nowhere, and everyone has a perfectly decent one from the very start?

[jstorrie]

If you sell a backpack full of goodies to merchants who -buy- them, the code automagickally dumps everything in the backpack to the floor.

I don't suppose this is because of the Wondrous Seller of Explosive Backpacks up in Tuluk a few months back?

[Twilight]

I think the auto-dump has always been there.  I can't remember which way standard DIKU handles it, it is either dump or they won't buy the item.

As for containers, it is the interaction of the item code and shopkeeper code that is at issue.  My explanation is going to be based on DIKU code, rather than Arm specific, but you can draw your own conclusions.  In DIKU, every item has an item type.  Armor, worn, and container all all item types.  To have an item you can put things in, the item type needs to be container.

For the shopkeeper code, what types of items a shopkeeper buys is a list of item types.  From there it is easy to add in more code to further limit what a shopkeeper will buy, from that specific list of item types.

The problem with containers is that you don't want your clothing merchants generally buying all sorts of chests, urns, bowls and whatnot.  However, many clothing items and those other sorts of items all have the same item type.  You might do something tricky and limit by item materials, but that is still a fairly high level filter really.  So its just more convenient to have specific merchants buy container type items, and not try to specifically "fix" clothing merchants.

Merchants that buy item containers are fairly easy to find, really.  Try finding a merchant that buys a water container!  They used to be everywhere, and now, for a good reason, aren't.

[Angela Christine]

Try finding a merchant that buys a water container!  They used to be everywhere, and now, for a good reason, aren't.

That may be because of idiots who drink in a tavern, keep the mug, and then go sell it.  Or worse, pick up a bunch of cups from the bar and/or tables and go sell them.  Or I may be unnecessarily cynical.   :twisted:  I think there are still a few merchants that buy waterskins and such.


Angela Christine