Crafting in Public

[fearwig]

Feel free to sue if this has been brought up before, but I for one couldn't find it:

Is it considered appropriate to whittle, carve, or otherwise craft something small and IC-managable in a public place (tavern)? It seems entirely IC to me, but I get the feeling that, especially as a result of the 'begins crafting' message, it's an OOC faux pas.

And second: Wouldn't it be much better if the generic "begins crafting" message (accompanied by ldesc) were removed, allowing players to emote the matter themselves without redundancy? I'd like to see crafting approached as much as an RP phenomenon--something one does with spare time, when sitting alone in the back of the tavern--as something one actively pursues. I realize that you can change your ldesc as soon as the new one (which is rather OOC in my opinion) appears, but that doesn't prevent the stupid echo from occurring.

[Cuusardo]

Within reason.

Wood, stone, bone, that typically makes a mess when you're crafting with it, and chances are the rest of the patrons and the bartender won't appreciate you making a mess, sending bits of your materials flying, etc.  Those would be best left for crafting halls or someplace outside.

[fearwig]

Which itself is rather reasonable, so long as it's roleplayed as such--though I suppose the standards of cleanliness maintained in Zalanthas's bars are probably pretty limited.

That said, I don't mean dragging in mek bones to saw apart at your table in the back so much as I mean a tiny block of wood, stone, or less-than-arm's-length piece of bone, which would surely not dirty up the floor so much as happily join the refuse already there.

[Bestatte]

It kinda depends on a number of factors, I think. Not only the material, but where you're doing it, in relation to where everyone else is. If you're at a big table, all by yourself, chances are that a shattered piece of stone isn't going to end up in someone's gith-eye soup - or worse, in a noble's eye.

If you're sitting at the bar, I think even the lowest-born commoner would have the good sense to keep their crafting to somewhere with more elbow-room.

The only exception I can think of for this would be sewing - and even then, the process of clothworking implies that you are cutting the pattern first, which means you need a rather large area to lay the cloth out on. I suppose you can roleplay it though that the pattern is already cut, and you're just trimming the edges while stitching it, but the failure message kinda ruins that idea.

Mostly I think it's a matter of common sense. Take all the failure messages into consideration when you're crafting, and assume the bar-room is occupied by many people. Then behave however you feel is appropriate for the situation.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

As others have said, it definetly depends on the situation. I'm pretty sure cutting up a piece of fruit is considered "crafting", and some casual whittling in a dingy bar like the Gaj is probably not going to be anything out of the ordinary.
When you start dropping entrails on the couch in the Sanctuary (actually saw this, in game), then we have a problem.

[fearwig]

Good to know there's a gray area to work with.

I still think the room echo should be ditched, though. Idea'd it up, but I don't know that it will matter since it was deliberately coded in that way, presumably for a reason (the only reason I could imagine being that they want to let everyone know you're doing something so you can't spam it unrealistically--still when that distrust ruins the RP of the matter by interrupting your emotes, it seems excessive).

[Trenidor]

---Didn't read the rest of responses---

Within reason.

Wood, stone, bone, that typically makes a mess when you're crafting with it, and chances are the rest of the patrons and the bartender won't appreciate you making a mess, sending bits of your materials flying, etc.  Those would be best left for crafting halls or someplace outside.

Ever been to a texan BBQ resturant? Wood shavings all over the floor.

And if it's not bad enough that everyone walks in with sand all over their boots.

I personally don't see it as a problem for someone to start crafting in a tavern as long as it's something in reason....

Swords and larger objects No.
jewelery, clothes, and other small objects, I think it'd be fine to be pretty much anywhere.

[WarriorPoet]

I would also advise a bit of OOC caution. Keep your fellow players in your thoughts.

While my character probably wouldn't notice you carving a piece of wood across the common room of the tavern, I, the PLAYER, will notice a massive blot of ugly spam scrolling across my screen every few seconds as you try to craft that pair of crotchless leather undies.

I don't mind crafters or people who craft in taverns. I do, however, get irritated when people mindlessly craft, causing my emotes and the emotes of my friends, to get spammed off the screen.

-WP

[fearwig]

Ah ha! My point exactly. That's the OOC faux pas I was talking about, and I'm glad someone said it.

That is the main reason I really do want to see the "~player begins crafting" sort of message taken off. In a crowded, tavern setting, it would be appropriate to emote once for every several attempts, i.e. once every two minutes or so. In a more personal setting, such as the wilderness with a partner or anywhere that you would clearly be noticed in detail, it would make sense to use two or three emotes for some crafts. It doesn't help at all that the coded echo has a totally OOC feel to it, either.

[Cuusardo]

Dragging sand in on your boots is one thing.  Chiseling away at stone and sending slivers of rock flying is a whole different ball of wax.

[Praetorian]

Oddly enough, I both agree and disagree with some of these things.  So, since I'm taking a short break from life I might as well force my opinions on others.

Tavern Crafting: In generally I just always see it as a little bit out of place.  Taverns are typically a more socializing sort of environment, turning the bar into your personal workbench to whittle out a dozen boxes to sell to buy a kank just seems...awkward.  Someone mentioned emoting once for every several attempts, about every two minutes.  To me, thats spam.  Thats about like setting a trigger to get branch bag;craft branch item.   At least emoting substantive flair to your whittlings, even taking several minutes per item, adds to 'environment' of the tavern at the moment in time.  Much of that flair can be introduced not through emotes, but while maintaining a discussion and adding yourself as a participant not just a waylaid crafter - like, talk (as he brushes a small mound of wood shavings from his lap), etc etc.  Lets people know you are doing it casually but keeps yourself involved.  Like someone else said though, dragging inappropriate things in (like entire logs, or a dead carru to skin) thats just outright silly.

On a side note, I almost think places like taverns should be flagged to make craftings fail more frequently, to reflect distractions, getting bumped by other patrons, a drunken Byn slopping ale on your linens, etc.

As far as the messages attributed to crafting, I agree that the 'So and so begins crafting.' isn't necessary.  If the individual even remotely demonstrates their activities then another message spelling it out isn't necessary.  I would like to see that 'begins crafting' message being removed from room echos, and just leave it as a changed ldesc.  A similar change to foraging I think would be nice, but if not extend it a bit further to allow 'forage rocks digging through a mound of loose dirt' - such that the room just seems, 'Digging through a mound of loose dirt, the bearded dwarf searches the ground intently.'  or whatever the default message presently is.  It sort of meshes an emote in with the actual command.

- Praetorian the Weary

[Delirium]

A similar change to foraging I think would be nice, but if not extend it a bit further to allow 'forage rocks digging through a mound of loose dirt' - such that the room just seems, 'Digging through a mound of loose dirt, the bearded dwarf searches the ground intently.'  or whatever the default message presently is.  It sort of meshes an emote in with the actual command.

That idea recieves Delirium's stamp of approval.

It would be nice.

Code Select Expand

>craft meat into juicy steak (slapping ~meat down on ~grill)

Slapping a slab of meat down on a grill, the crafter begins crafting.

>forage wood (poking around beneath a big ol' tree)

Poking around beneath a big ol' tree, the forager begins searching the area intently.

[fearwig]

I imagine crafting in a public setting would require someone's intelligence to determine whether it would or would not be appropriate. The bar is one thing--there are sometimes half a dozen tables in a tavern, and it makes sense enough to me that someone could be whittling or carving a small rock or bone or piece of wood in a back one without producing a disturbance or being unrealistic (this is where people go to spend their time, after all, not just to be chatterboxes--can show you logs to that effect, if you'd like to see people sitting around saying absolutely nothing for 3 game hours or more straight).

But at this point I think the biggest issue is the crafting echo. It's downright sad, the way it is. After that, the solution to the issue will come, logically.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

In this case, common sense might be more appropriate than intelligence.

I don't know about crafting small things in the tavern, might be workable, long as it's not noisy [consistent screeching or something], smelly, messy. Since the owners might not like it, that or the nobles.

What about crafting in the shops then? And leaving a mess after you're done. All because there was probably no light outside. Shopkeepers should have this auto script that makes them pull out their double-barreled sawed-off shotgun from behind the table once they see.. begins crafting.

[Cuusardo]

I think crafting INSIDE shops does not make sense.  They are shops, places of business, not public crafting halls.  I think shopkeepers have every right to be upset by some random person sitting down in their building, taking up space, and making a mess.

[sarahjc]

I'd say first read the room Desc. And use common sense. Does this look like a place that you could craft and people wouldn't mind?

If it's got a sawdust floor and some guy is puking onto the bar, chances are.. nobody is really going to mind you whittling a little wood or fletching an arrow.  That's not to say I would go have a seat and start tanning a hide with animal brains.

Now if this place is upscale, I'd refrain from doing anything more than embroidery. Chances are the bartender as well as the patrons aren't going to happy about wood chips all over the floor.  

Also I believe there are public areas in the two major cities were people can sit down, start a fire, work, rest and eat without anyone bothering them.  These are the kind of places that people who need to work out a living should be working at.

I don't think I am giving away any IC secretes with that one.

As for shops, well.. I don't think you'd like it very much if the competition came in, had a seat and started working in your hard in space now would you? I don't think people should be crafting in shops, you should be purchasing or selling.

[da mitey warrior]

No crafting at all in taverns.  The bartender should have a script where he throws a mug at you if you start!  The tavern shouldn't be a place where you start to work on your knitting or start shaving down some bone.  The tavern is a place for socializing, not for manual labor.

The perfect place to do crafting is the room outside the tavern.  That way people passing by can interact with you, ask you what you're making etc.

[creeper386]

I'll have to disagree with da mighty warrior up there and agree with anyone in favor of using common sense. Saying a tavern is made for socializing is bordering on OOC there, IMO.

Bars and taverns IRL aren't just for socializing. They are there for people to go and get drunk as well as socializing. In the old west they were meeting places as well as places to get drunk and places to socialize, bars that is. It wouldn't be too uncommon to see some old fellow with a stiff drink in front of him widdling away at alittle piece of wood.

I could see someone chatting away with a group of people while whittling, or doing some sort of work on clothing.

I couldn't see someone doing large work, or incredibly messy work, or work that could be dangerous to others. As for stink and noise? Well I'm guessing most the taverns don't smell great to begin with, and are quite noisy as well. Although most noisy crafts I could think of would fit into the larger type, the messy type or the dangerous to others type.


Creeper

[Angela Christine]

Oooh, this topic came up almost exactly 2 years ago!  http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=16912  Here is what I said then:

Messy

I think small woodworking, like whittling little figurines, would make a little mess but would probably be ok most places.  A little small grain sawdust won't do anything to hurt most tavern floors.  On the other hand chopping up a log will make a lot of sawdust and sizeable chunks of wood, so it probably wouldn't be good in a tavern.  Either would be acceptable at an outdoor cookfire, since the remnants would provide kindling and fuel for the fire.  Ditto for most kinds of clothworking, scraps of cloth aren't a disgusting mess.  With clothworking you have the opposite problem, you don't want to lay out your nice clean cloth on a table covered with dried vomit and cockroach droppings.


Noisy

Almost anything you do with stone is going to be noisy, probably too noisy to use indoors except in workrooms.  The taverns are noisy, but someone banging rocks together is still going to be annoying.  Small whittling might pass in a noisy tavern, but not a quiet one.  Constructing wagons and chests has to involve some hammering and sawing, so it is too noisy for most indoor locations.  Sanding wood and even polishing stones is noisier than you might expect.

Smelly

Tanning hides is going to be stinky, there is no way around that.  Crafting things out of fresh shells will probably be smelly, since you'll be scraping off gobbets of rotting flesh as you work the shell.  Using dye is usually smelly, it depends on the dye and the method.  Cooking can be smelly, especially if you burn as often as I do.   :wink:  When people are crafting tendons or stringy guts, that has to be smelly.  Most things that are stinky are also messy, you don't want to be doing this in a resturaunt or in the middle of mainstreat.  You can usually find an appropriate place, the Bazzaar in Allanak and parts of the commoner's quarter specifically mention the stink of people crafting, so it would be fine your your character to join in.  Skinning corpses will usually be messy, smelly, and generally disgusting, so you want to do that outside the city or in a workspace dedicated to butchering.  Most glues stink to high heaven.




Featherworking, basket weaving and rope making usualy isn't noisy, messy or smelly, so they would probably acceptable almost anywhere.  Sometimes it isn't simple, as some activities in a craft will be less offensive than others; carving a bow from wood will not be stinky, but making a bowstring out of guts will be.  Making arrow shafts might be noisy and messy, but assembling the finished shafts, head and feathers probably isn't too noisy or messy.  Strining beads onto a necklace is quiet, but carving the beads is noisy.  Cutting cloth is fairly quiet, but tearing strips of cloth is loud.  Brewing can get pretty stinky, I bet, especially when brewing liquids.  Making a blackened bone sword is going to noisy while carving it, and stinky when you put it in the fire to harden it, so you'll want to find an outdoor fire or a workshop.

It just takes a little common sense, and thinking about what would actually be invloved in your activity.  Then think about your environment, and decide if what you are doing is appropriate.  A good hint is too look at the NPCs and VNPCs in the area, if they are doing what you want to do, it's probably ok.  One of the echos in the Gaj features someone vomiting, this might lead you to believe that vomiting and anything less disgusting than vomiting is a-ok, but the vomiter gets thrown out of the tavern, which says vomiting class offences are not acceptable, even if they are common.  Depending on the precision of your craft, you might not want to do it in a noisy, bustling location (regardless of how inoffensive your activity is to others) because you will get jostled and distracted.

I still agree with me, but I would also add:

Delicate

It is possible that no one at the Gaj or the Tooth would care if you choose to practice your delicate embroidery there.  However, they also are not going to go out of their way to make it a nice working environment, so you probably will get jostled, and might even get a drink or vomit spilled on your work.  Taverns may not be appropriate places for some kinds of work not because you will be bothering other people, but because other people will make it too difficult or dangerous to do precision work there.


Angela Christine

[fearwig]

No crafting at all in taverns.  The bartender should have a script where he throws a mug at you if you start!  The tavern shouldn't be a place where you start to work on your knitting or start shaving down some bone.  The tavern is a place for socializing, not for manual labor.

The perfect place to do crafting is the room outside the tavern.  That way people passing by can interact with you, ask you what you're making etc.

When we go to the hookah bar near here, my girlfriend almost always brings her knitting or crochet. You think the watier would go "SHIT, stop buying stuff! Fuck you, get out!" because she's doing that? Seems pretty silly to me.
Everybody -should- be using common sense when doing this. But it makes perfect sense that some crafting, especially the sort that is relaxing or casual, should be done without a big OOC message that comes up to say "HAY EVERYBODY THIS GUY IS CRAFTING LOL".

[joyofdiscord]

When we go to the hookah bar near here, my girlfriend almost always brings her knitting or crochet. You think the watier would go "SHIT, stop buying stuff! Fuck you, get out!" because she's doing that? Seems pretty silly to me.
Everybody -should- be using common sense when doing this. But it makes perfect sense that some crafting, especially the sort that is relaxing or casual, should be done without a big OOC message that comes up to say "HAY EVERYBODY THIS GUY IS CRAFTING LOL".

Thank you.  Common sense is the big, big, big one.  I have "crafted" in "taverns" in real life, and I guarantee you, none of the employees gave me any trouble, and the other patrons CERTAINLY did NOT suddenly go into conniptions and start running over and trying to catch scraps in their soup bowls.  "Crafting" is an OOC concept which includes everything from slicing a piece of fruit to tanning a hide.  Since "crafting" is something that advances the character economically, people think "powergaming, OMG unrealistic," whenever they see someone doing it in a tavern, when this is not the case.  Read the thread AC linked.

The "splinter in my soup bowl" is DEFINITELY an OOC concept.  IMO, In 99% of cases, it's a very thinly-veiled poweremote used as a substitute for "ooc quit crafting in here, dude".  If anyone at another table ever emotes a splinter in their soup, I'm going to emote being very confused as they come over to pick a splinter off my table and drop it into their soup.

Also, think of what a hoity-toity place you have to turn the Gaj or other low class taverns into in order to imagine they would get pissed off about carving on a little piece of wood or sandstone.  Have you read the room echoes in some of those places?  People are vomiting, getting into brawls, breaking mugs and other tavern property.  I think the staff would be relieved that someone was just whittling at his table instead of making all manner of ruckus.  Of course, then you do have to take into account the crowd's effect on you.  If the tavern has a fairly quiet nook to slip away into, that's fine.  Crafting at the bar should be a royal pain in the ass.  People will be bumping into you, elbowing you, etc.

[fearwig]

Oh yeah. I don't think anyone actually suggested doing it at the -bar-, under most circumstances (though I'm sure there is some sort of crafting I'm not taking into account that might very well be done at the bar, perhaps). A back table is the subject of this discussion, at least from me--any talk of doing this kind of stuff in a busy section of the room is totally imposed over what I said originally.

The only real problem with crafting in the bar is the "Feckwad starts crafting." message. People think it's silly ICly because they're OOCly annoyed by it, that's all.

[Cale_Knight]

If someone emotes before doing something, I generally ignore the coded message (when appropriate, obviously).

So if I see "Fearwig kicks his feet up on a table, a small chunk of wood in his hand, and begins quietly carving," and then see "Fearwig starts crafting," I'm going to ignore the coded message, since it's redundant and adds nothing to my RP experience.

[fearwig]

The problem there is the spam element, naturally.

I would suggest that everyone #gag the crafting message out, but surely you have no control over whether everyone does that.

The problem is, as I said: when something is an OOC nuisance (spamming) people *find* a way to make it an IC nuisance, even if there's no real reason for it.

On top of that, in a crowded setting, you shouldn't be emoting any more than what is reasonable that people might notice. So while an emote should signify that you're beginning a "session" of crafting, you wouldn't be emoting every time you start a new item, et cetera, especially if they're short-duration.

[Angela Christine]

On top of that, in a crowded setting, you shouldn't be emoting any more than what is reasonable that people might notice. So while an emote should signify that you're beginning a "session" of crafting, you wouldn't be emoting every time you start a new item, et cetera, especially if they're short-duration.

There is a damned if you do, damned if you don't element here.  If you don't emote at least a couple times per item, then some people will accuse you of spam-crafting or powergaming rather than roleplaying.  But if you throw out plenty of emotes that are not of general interest, then some people (maybe even the same people) will complain that you are cluttering their screen.

Maybe a comprimse would be to craft very, very slowly?  Make one crafting attempt every 5-10 minutes in a crowded setting (the more crowded, the longer between attempts) regardless of the length of the coded delay.  It makes sense that you wouldn't work at top speed in a crowd.  You are talking to people,  watching what is going on around you, trying to keep your work from disturbing other patrons, trying to keep the movements of other patrons from ruining your work, listening to the efforts of a drunken amature bard, etc.  In your workroom your work has your complete attention, but in public there are plenty of distractions.  Those distractions would reasonably be expected to slow down the rate at which you can whip out monogrammed lace handkerchiefs, right?


Angela Christine

[bracken]

#gag
Hey fearwig..somewhere in this thread (I think) you mentioned #gag.  Is that for real?If so, explain?
Thanks :roll:

[joyofdiscord]

On top of that, in a crowded setting, you shouldn't be emoting any more than what is reasonable that people might notice. So while an emote should signify that you're beginning a "session" of crafting, you wouldn't be emoting every time you start a new item, et cetera, especially if they're short-duration.

I think if you are engaged in a "session" of crafting which includes so many items that you are just deciding to not emote them, you're probably moving into over-crafting territory for a tavern.  The way I look at it, if you are taking up much space at all with your crafting (like, let's say, any table room, as opposed to something just in your hands or on your lap), or crafting multiple things, you are really pushing up your "better buy a drink or something" karma.

If, on the other hand, your crafting is attracting people to the tavern with interest, and they are purchasing from you, and hopefully buying something from the tavern along with it, your "better buy a drink" karma goes down, because you are now helping the tavern in other ways.  That's another aspect of taverns that people forget.  They don't exist to have every single person inside buying food and drink.  Some of those people attract other customers with their presence, like that scummy dude selling overpriced spice, or that woman over there carving the izdari piece.  Their customers also stop for a drink, and they're probably cutting in the bartender, so they aren't ever going to get hassled to buy something (and in low class taverns, which are like public houses, remember, probably no one is ever going to get hassled to buy something).  

If you're making significant money from your efforts, and your customers typically don't patronize the establishment itself, I'd go ahead and give a cut to the bartender (and have, even when buying from crafters).  Being on the bartender's good side is always a good thing.

[Xygax]

#gag
Hey fearwig..somewhere in this thread (I think) you mentioned #gag.  Is that for real?If so, explain?
Thanks :roll:

This is a client function, not provided by the mud, and no particularly relevant to this thread.  There are other threads on mud clients, and I recommend tracking them down, as a client (that is, something other than vanilla telnet) will make your life a LOT easier.

-- X

[fearwig]

I think if you are engaged in a "session" of crafting which includes so many items that you are just deciding to not emote them, you're probably moving into over-crafting territory for a tavern.  The way I look at it, if you are taking up much space at all with your crafting (like, let's say, any table room, as opposed to something just in your hands or on your lap), or crafting multiple things, you are really pushing up your "better buy a drink or something" karma.

I think that reason comes to play here, though. Thinking can be as useful in crafting as emotes, as can ldescs. If anything I'd say ldescs are a really powerful tool when roleplaying actions that wouldn't be readily apparent to the whole room due to its size.

I feel confident that my real-life experience is sufficient to judge the propriety of crafting in taverns, when it is an is not really acceptable from an IC perspective, based on what I know to be realistically possible in a public setting. I am also confident that most players, if honest with themselves, can use their own judgement in doing the same, if you see what I mean.

If you want to slow down your crafting in a public place, and think it is more reasonable to do it that way, by all means, go for it. Keep in mind that being in a tavern doesn't necessarily indicate that you are sitting at the bar talking up a storm, and keep in mind that most people don't give a good goddamn what you're doing in Zalanthas much as in the real world.

I used my hookah bar analogy earlier--my girlfriend brings her crochet in there, sometimes. I also know a guy who brings a small table easel in, too, so he can puff shisha and drink turkish coffee while he paints. You know what? I probably wouldn't do that in-game, simply because I think it'd be too extreme, depending on the character. But holy shit, someone does it in real life! And no one gives a damn, even in a rather crowded "tavern-like" environment. That should say something.

This sort of activity is only unusual because most people in 2005 don't *have* these passtimes, at least not in the same way that artisans would, not because people choose not to do them in a public place. A tavern is much more than a place that serves drinks, after all--it's a communal center. They recognize that if you frequent the place, you're going to buy something, and you're going to maintain the atmosphere with your continual presence so that others are inclined to buy things as well. It's how they operate. Applying excessive "etiquette" restrictions to crafting in public is an OOC influence on the game, that I'm rather sure of. While there are surely restrictions that anyone with common sense should know to apply to themselves, some people seem by this thread strongly inclined to overcompensate.

[fearwig]

#gag
Hey fearwig..somewhere in this thread (I think) you mentioned #gag.  Is that for real?If so, explain?
Thanks :roll:

This is a client function, not provided by the mud, and no particularly relevant to this thread.  There are other threads on mud clients, and I recommend tracking them down, as a client (that is, something other than vanilla telnet) will make your life a LOT easier.

-- X

Yes, #gag is a Zmud function. I can see why some people play Arm without zmud, unlike other muds that would rely more heavily on aliases and triggers--but I still think it's a wise investment for the constant mudder (an investment of $0 if you're as unscrupulous as I).

The main triggers I use in zmud are color codes--I have phrases like "foreign presence" come up as teal instead of my client's standard lightish green, so that I don't spam past it. But then I am kind of absent-minded.