OOC Stupidity

[creeper386]

Is it just me, or is the need for a completely IC session so important that the tolerance for OOC mistakes is near 0? I've been gone for a few months and have just started playing again. Quite often have forgot a command here and there and what not. And it seems am getting reemed for it IC. Which IMO is completely off basis.

And it's not just commands. It's also knowledge. So many people seem to have this idea that everyone else knows exactly what there characters know. Well, if I haven't been told something, I don't even KNOW that my character is supposed to know something. Let alone what it is.

There is so much information that a character knows, or should know. Should be told. That doesn't get RPed out. So the player behind the scenes doesn't know about. The character should see actions of vNPCs and know how to react in a situation, but players don't always see them. Sure there is lots of documentation. But it doesn't always cover everything, and not everyone always has access to everything all the time.

Just because you've been Lord Fancypants fuck body for years and everyone in the city knows you hold power doesn't mean all the players have received this notice. Hell, in clans someone relative OOCly knew to the clan may not know everyones ranks, and sometimes it's hard to tell. Even though they should have an idea ICly.

I don't know, I just find it a rather disturbing trend that seems to be alot worse lately. Alot of times I feel people are being rude to me the player, when I make a mistake and it because a huge deal IC or my character gets punished for it. When it has nothing to do with him, but I guess that's what you get for playing with the elite of the elite of the world here, huh?


Creeper

[Forest Junkie]

I agree.

Sometimes it can be annoying. Your best bet is to just play it out and remain IC as best you can.

Don't let the actions of others fool you into thinking they are out to get you, or they are arrogant/haughty/elitist/etc.

Just play the game and have your fun, don't worry yourself with such things.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd say it is BAD Leadership OOCly and ICly.

I'd email their clan imms and explain the situation to them.

[Marauder Moe]

I think it really depends on the situation.  A broad generalization in either direction won't work.

If you're new in a clan and you don't pay proper respects (saluting to a captain or something) because you didn't recognize the rank, thats as much an IC mistake as it is a lack of OOC knowledge.  I see no problem with you getting yelled at for it.

But lets say you're giving an item to someone and you make a fancy emote about handing it over but forget to use the actual give command (a mistake I've seen and done many times myself), an IC reaction doesn't seem appropriate to me.  Just "ooc you haven't given it to me yet" and move on with the scene.

VNPCs are a bit trickier, especially with new players.  I don't like to go OOC in a crowded tavern trying to explain the whole concept to a new player.  If its something minor, like someone crafting in a tavern (a bit of a pet peeve for me) I may drop an IC hint, like emote being hit by a shard of rock or splinter from whatever they're doing.  If someone comments about how a tavern is completely empty despite the presence of both VNPCs and NPCs I might actually ooc about it rather than become ICly bewildered.

[Ayashah]

I think it sounds like someone screwed up IC, irritated a PC IC and got reamed for it IC. Ranks, except for 'special House only ranks' are listed in the general documentation in the Armageddon pages. Let me see if I have the link.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

I would say, buck it up, deal IC with your IC situation unless you feel oocly harassed and picked on oocly and NOT icly, then email a log to the imms and complain about the player. If you do think that the pc that reamed you was acting IC but you, the player, didnt know the general listing of ranks therefore your pc didnt, then your pc didnt know and fucked up. Deal and move on IC. Learn from it. Everything isnt going to go like the yellow brick road to Oz all the time. Sometimes the flying monkeys make life difficult.

[creeper386]

One, although I've been on the receiving end a few times. It's not a huge deal to me. It's just been something I've been seeing about the game, and the general feel I've gotten from reading the boards that alot of people are starting to become OOCily rude just to keep their ideal of the perfect game.

If you do think that the pc that reamed you was acting IC but you, the player, didnt know the general listing of ranks therefore your pc didnt, then your pc didnt know and fucked up.

Just because I didn't know something, doesn't mean my character shouldn't know it. Just because I wasn't there when so and so was promoted. And noone said anything on the IG boards, and I don't have access to the clan boards on the GDB. Doesn't mean my PC wasn't there. Or wouldn't have heard of it by now.

Just because ICly there wasn't many many lectures on how to act, doesn't mean these things don't happen in the background. And thinking that a player should know every little detail about everything when it's all been virtual information passed along, is bullshit. It's impossible for the player to know everything that the character does.

All I'm saying, is it wouldn't hurt for people to be more considerate. Yes, if someone didn't know something OOC and it caused problems IC there are going to be repurcussions, but at the same time, slack can and should be giving on a case by case situation.

If you know a PC has acctually lectures on something and still screwed up, that's IC. If the lectures were virtural and the player doesn't have access to the documents covering it, or god forbid there isn't a document(Which I think happens everyonce in awhile) then that's not IC.

Next your going to say my character should be punished because me the player doesn't know the eye color and life history of NPC #105 that's sitting over there in the corner having problems with his advanced case of colon cancer? Because my character might well see it, but I OOCily might have no clue as his description says nothing about eye color. Because you know, it's the same damn thing.

Creeper

[Ayashah]

Soo, how is this player that reamed you going to know that YOU the player dont know the stuff and that YOU the player havent gotten the imms to add you to the clan boards?  Hmm, drop to ooc to ask for ooc update on what you do and dont know IC every time before acting IC??

That is stupid.

If all your lessons were virtual then thats how it is. Try to find things or...*gasp*  rp with those in your clan and ask questions. That way you can find things out. OR if there are no others in your clan to ask, email the clan imms for information. I am sure they will be glad to help out. But first off....email the clan imms to get yourself added to the boards.

Myself, if my pc IC believes you should know something and your pc doesnt, then your pc is going to get reamed. End of story. Thats just how it is. This isnt a game of tag with take backs. I can imagine the way rp would go....

Giving a blank look, the clueless victim says in sirihish, "Huh? Salute? What's that?"

ooc sorry, did you know that IC you were to salute someone?

ooc umm, no

ooc Ahh, okay.

In understanding tone while patting the clueless victim on the arm then giving him a hug, the big meanie says in sirihish, "Ahh, my poor dimplelydoo! No one taught you how to do that yet? You go get yourself a cookie and let me tell you all about what you dont know."

ooc What's a cookie?

ooc *blinks* No one taught you about the magic feel good cookie? Did you read the documents?"

ooc Take back! hahaha, just teasing!

ooc you are too cute! What else dont you know about the clan? Oh, did you email the clan imms?

ooc no one told me too

ooc oh, umm, well it IS posted on the homepage who are the imms for the clan but let me look the email addresses up for you

Anyways, you all get my drift. If you dont know stuff you feel your pc would know, then get to work learning but dont get mad at others playing IC to their pc and their roles. Its not being elitest nor mean oocly. Its staying IC.

[Armaddict]

All I have to say is that if everything was IC, then that's how it should have gone.  Sure, they may have 'reamed' on you, because of something you, the player, didn't know.

Don't take it personally, it's just the game.  Have your character learn from the mistake (or not, if that's what's IC), and move on so that it passes by.  Don't make a -huge- deal out of an IC reaming.

[Akaramu]

If you were so concerned about lack of OOC knowledge your PC should have IC, why didnt you request access to the clan board and study the docs before logging in? I had to do that once, and it worked out well for me. For instance, I educated myself about ranks, titles and how to recognize each rank, and was later IC able to lecture others who had actively played in the clan much longer than me. I labelled a couple hours 'OOC time' to just wander around and learn the rooms I should already know IC, look at everything and everyone, and write up a question list for the clan imms.

Players are, for the most part, expected to educate themselves. If you take effort in this, I'm sure the clan imms will be happy to fill the remaining gaps for you, and if you are a little patient, maybe provide a 'what you know' list for your first login.

All of this can be done before you expose yourself to the brainz-eating IC for the first time.  :wink:

[Anonymous]

I've had PCs in a clan treat a high-ranking PC of mine like some beggar off the street.  Yeah, they should have known that my PC was high-ranking based on the equipment he was wearing, but that's beside the point.  Had the other PCs not smart-mouthed my PC the entire scene would have gone completely differently.  Instead because of how the whole thing started my PC got pissed at them.

And that's my only question.  How did this come about?  Did you say 'Hey, who the fuck are you' or something else to a superior you didn't know was a superior?  Because then you've put the other PC in a corner where they have to react in a certain way unless their PC is spineless/non-confrontational.

[Bestatte]

Heh...once, I played a guard in a clan. I was sparring with the dummy, RPing it all, since I sparred often and it was boring as hell in the mornings when no one else is around...

This guy walks in, who I didn't recognize. I looked at him to see if maybe it was some superior officer or a clan senior who I hadn't met yet..

He wasn't wearing a stitch of clan clothing.

So I ask who he is, tighten my grip on my practice club, narrow my eyes, get all suspicious and ready to call for backup...

We talk a bit, it turns out he's some big-wig secret employee kinda person..someone "really important that we don't tell anyone about."

So I'm all apologetic and tell him I hope he understands my being so cautious..

..and I get commended for doing exactly what guards are paid to do. And then he spends the next half hour (real time) helping me work on my (roleplayed) combat techniques.

It was pretty awesome. I *think* I have Vendyra to thank for that, though I really have no idea if it was an NPC or a PC.

[Jacques]

I actually had something like this turn into some fun RP once, long ago. My character had, by means on which I should probably not elaborate, acquired a brand new silk cloak... that happened to be clan equipment for the aides of a certain northern noble house. I was fairly new to the game, and had NO idea that this plain-colored cloak meant anything.

So, one day in a tavern, my character hears a voice ask him "You are one of ours?" He turns, not really looking at the person speaking, and replies "What do you mean, one of yours?" The very grumpy-looking dwarf nearby growled, reached for a weapon, and said something like "You are speaking to a Chosen Lord. Act like it." A few quick uses of the "look" command and you can bet your sweet backside that my character was grovelling and being QUITE submissive and repentent. He did manage to survive the experience, and it ended up being a lot of fun RP, all based on someone ICly correcting some OOC ignorance of mine.

So it doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing. I suggest everyone try to make it fun, rather than just tearing the poor, uninformed guy (who might be you next time) a new one.

[Armaddict]

That was a PC, bestatte

[Bestatte]

Heh actually Armaddict, the one YOU knew about was a PC. There was another one. Two others actually. One of the two others was also a PC, the other is the one I'm not sure about. Though thinking back, I remember his main desc had something that indicated to me that he probably was an NPC that Vendyra dusted off from a trunk somewhere just to have a little fun.

Three times I met up with different characters in this one clan training area - three times I reacted the same way. That one time though was pretty damned spooky.

[Ayashah]

So it doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing. I suggest everyone try to make it fun, rather than just tearing the poor, uninformed guy (who might be you next time) a new one.

Actually, no one was tearing him a new one just telling him to stop blaming things on other players whom are acting IC based on their knowledge. There are multiple sides to every story and I am sure there are sides of the original poster's story that arent aired because it would be IC. Also, the pc that riped him a new one IC had sides I am sure the original poster didnt see, know of or so forth.

Case in point here. I once had someone send an OOC complaint into the mud that I was OOCly harassing them, along with another player for some IC events that happened. Myself, being shocked and completely blown away by this false accusation proceeded to almost write up a complete day by day accounting for thoughts, feelings, actions and so forth for my pc. (I went overboard because I was mortified at the accusation since I was just playing IC to my pc.) It was assumed I knew the other player oocly, or so I think, because the imm emailed us both together which basically gave out my email address to someone I didnt know.

Needless to say, that complaint was completely unfounded as my pc had real reasons as to why she acted and this other pc, whom learned about an ic event from my pc, reacted on his own against this other pc as a 'surprise' for mine. Of course, it was not only an IC surprise but an OOC surprise and headache/stress. The original complaintant was NOT aware of things that had happened IC right before the meeting, etc, nor my character's state of mind so jumped to conclusions that were foundless. (This incident was over 3 RL yrs ago)

The reason I am telling this is because some react based on just what they assume is going on which may or may NOT be the case. The PC can react that way if the player wants it to but the player shouldnt take it personally and know that they dont know the whole story behind ANY other pcs' or npcs' reaction.

Just some food for thought.

[creeper386]

One, I'm still not upset or speaking specifically of events that have happens. What I've said is just examples for what I was trying to say. That alot of the player base has started to become so enameled in the game that they are at least in my opinion starting to be rude other times. I'm not saying everyone. I'm not saying the people I play with necessarily.

And this whole thread is a fairly good example of it. I wasn't bitching, moaning, complaining. I wasn't pointing fingers, saying names, or tattle tailing. I was speaking my opinion. And just because I used examples ... People assume I'm speaking only of those events, for however they relate to any events that have happened IG, and not of a general broad - Again IMO - issue.

And just for the record. I did what I was told when I got recruited. Like always emailing the clan staff member(s) CCing the mud and all. Doesn't mean that you get added right away or that your email doesn't get lost and it takes awhile to finally get things straightened out.

Also, sometimes it's blatantly obvious that there was an OOC mistake made. And IMO you shouldn't always just continue blundering through it ICly, or at least not at the same level as if it was all IC. Sometimes it works just fine, and is better that way, I'll admit that. Sometimes it's rude and not really in the spirit of ANY game to punish IC based on an OOC element. That's all I have to say.


Creeper

[Ayashah]

But thats just it, Creeper, how would one know you, or another, dont know something OOCly that your pc should know ICly? Thats putting a lot of pressure on anyone in a leadership position to decide if you are:

a) actually unaware of things
b) are just playing ICly ignorant
c) playing a pc that tries to act unknowing to skate
d) any and all of the above

All the other pc can do is go with what is IC. The only way to find out about it oocly is to drop to OOC constantly to ask if they are doing A), B), C) or D) before rp'ng ANYTHING. That someone is rp'ng IC to their character, without breaking character and interupting scenes for ooc clarification as to whether someone's pc is playing IC or OOC due to OOC stuff, is just how things are.

As many imms/players have quoted from the documents before, if you think someone is being rude or mean to your pc, you are probably right! Welcome to Armageddon. I dont remember the exact quote though I am sure someone can quote it for you. Just dont assume the player behind the character is being rude or mean to you. They are most likely just rp'ng their character and staying IC without dropping to OOC everytime something goes wrong to clarify if the other player has read the docs, had access to the docs, had lessons in the clan that were taught or virtual or that they followed up with their imms to get on the clan board.

[creeper386]

Okay, again for you that are slow out there. EXAMPLES people.

Doesn't mean it's the only true hard thing out there. I'm saying people are starting to become more rude OOC just to try to keep an IC inviroment pure. Personally, I think it's gotten out of hand.

AGAIN, I'm speaking of what I think is a problem. Wandering what others peoples thoughts on it is. I wasn't trying to pick something that happened and say the people that did it was in the wrong. Therefor there is little reason for you to be standing up for them, or just arguing against me.

Listen, EXAMPLE. That's it. I was bringing up what I see has started to develop into a problem. Some of the responses to this thread quite obviously prove that. As so many people seem to be, "Pick up the stakes and pitch folks and lets burn this fucker to the ground!"

I just see less of a community and it seems alot of people are trying to make everything perfect IC. Instead of loosening up and trying to have fun. Yes, IC is good, but there is a line that it goes too. I mean, if it's that important to you all to keep IC how about you try to make it a rule that there is no OOC in the MUD at all. Soon as you log in, it's ALL your character and nothing else. No matter what happens. Even if it's OOC and your house is burning down. Don't matter. Keep it IC.

Yeah, now, done.

Creeper

[Ayashah]

Okay, again for you that are slow out there.

Taking things a bit personally, arent we?

Exactly, examples. We are going with your original example to answer it. Give other examples and people can use those to respond to if you want.

This mud IS about roleplay. Playing a character. There are instances where OOC is needed. But to generally say that anytime a pc should know something IC but the player doesnt OOC that they should be given slack is sort of stupid. The reason being is HOW would others know that the other player DOESNT know OOC therefore his pc IC doesnt know what it should know?? No mindbenders in RL to figure it out. Sooo, they can only go with what they see IC. Who is to say that the player doesnt already KNOW it oocly but is playing his character as not knowing ICly?

But, I have said this a few times and it hasnt sunk home yet, so I doubt it will now even though I didnt use your original example as a way to make an example in my post.

[amoeba]

Is it just me, or is this thread a bit obtuse. On both ends of the arguement. There are two sides right?  Maybe I'm just slow tonight.  

Let me be so bold as to comment on what I think is the jist of the arguement.

I think that what creeper is stating that his feeling is that RL hostility, harshness, what have you is creeping (no pun intended) into the game itself. Where desicions are being made and actions taken, motivated primarily outside of the game.  If this is really happeneing, or how one draws that conculsion is what is in contention.  I suspect that creeper is frustrated in trying to create hypothetical arguments to support this contention.  Naturally people are poking holes in the arguments.  Have I got that right?

Now to address creeper's argument, does this occur? I would have little doubt that this happens occasionally. I have seen it in other muds. I hardly think that we are unique in this regard. However.  My argument is that things are always worse by a large order of magnatude when you dwell on it. If you have a doubt on a particular issue ask the relavant IMM's.  Usually sheding a little light on a partular issue dissapates the problem.  I would suggest to address each percieved incident individually.  Discussing it in vauge generalities is rarely helpfull and often counterproductive.

To summerize a long-winded comment. When in doubt. ask.  Btw. if I am totally off base, ignore the hell out of me. I know my wife does.

[Ayashah]

I do apologize if my posts are a bit blunt. I tend to be blunt in RL which can be taken as rudeness by those that dont know me. *chuckles*  I have been told by our manager that I need to 'fluff' things up at times. I am sure my bluntness wasnt helped by just getting over a cold, working 11 hours of OT already this week along with that just lovely time of month us women get.  Soooo, I DO apologize if I came across in an offensive manner.