Where have all the REAL Mercenaries gone?

[Maybe42or54]

On the light of the artisty thread and my recent post involving the name of the T'zai Byn.

Why is it that people trust a few companies with a max of maybe twenty people, but don't trust a mercenary company, such as the T'zai byn, when it has about 500 people, give or take?

Any other gripes, concerns, and reasonings?

[Ghost]

Byn costs more sometimes.

[Rhyden]

Bynners smell funny.

I think most see the Byn as being a Noble House resource rather than a commoners' mercenary service as well. Also, small mercenary groups are more secretive and can carry out tasks that the Byn may not be known to do usually.

[RunningMountain]

Kroz, Iltrin, Mazzel, Gowynn - Ah I miss the old days...

[Tamarin]

If you're in Tuluk, the Byn aren't terribly well-received.  Too many times, they've sided with Allanak, although this would have been entirely due to the fact that Allanak paid them a lot of money.

[HardCarbon]

Recently.. the Byn have done a Really really good job of making their competition look attractive.

[Spoon]

Maybe it's because the Byn is one of the few organisations to hire elves and half-elves. And anyone else who isn't locked up.

[Anonymous Tuluki]

With the name of the current active Byn unit, no Tuluki should want to hire them on grounds of that alone.

[Agent_137]

Wait wait, so PCs in the code supported clan "The Circle" get preference over indies regardless of cost and other factors, but the PCs in the code supported clan "The T'zai Byn" get screwed because they charge a little more and you don't like their active sergeant?

Wow. What happened to the idea:
If you want something cheap and dirty that might last one or two uses, you go to the independent. Want something that'll work and last, you go to the professional.


On a sidenote, i want to do a Milo Minderbinder with the Byn.

"Attack that fort there for 3000 'sid? Sure thing, Lord Templar."

*leak information to Tuluks*

"Guard that fort there from impending attack for 4000 'sid? Sure thing, Chosen One."

*march on fort*

"Ok troops, split up. half in the fort, half out of the fort. At dawn, we'll charge the fort, and fight until noon. Try not to kill each other, ok? Oh, and at noon, you guys in the fort surrender. Nak's paying us a good large less than Tuluk."

[Maybe42or54]

I always viewed the Byn as the turncoats and killers of the cities, the known ones anyway.

They can trade knowledge and rumors from the other city.
A tuluki templar wants to know of a scouting trip that the byn is in? Bribe the hell out of them.

Oh my god! They are expensive!
Good services require more.

After all, you don't pay a bard that can't sing worth crap to sing for the annual Black Robe Gift Exchange party.

You get the famed Bards and the ones who have been around and are known. You get what you pay for, and The byn has compounds. Any others have them? That has gotta mean they atleast get a good paying job every now and then.

As for the new unit name, The Commander of the T'zai Byn is northerner, am I right? Why would he allow that, that breaks the rules of staying independant from both cities.

Where have all the REAL Mercenaries gone?

Looked at the bottom of the shield wall?

[Trenidor]

Ya...it's already been said.

Pretty much the byn are too expencive, have a notority to have foul people in their midst, and they've been known to do some dirty deeds.

Another thing is, it's easier to hire that lone mercinary who's online right now, than have to wait for your byn sergeant to get around and set up the deal. Maybe we could start spreading rumors of how they're not trained all that well for prepairedness, heh.

Besides...there's no limits to how far away the next safe area is...
One could easily make a trip between the cities in less than one or two IG hours. I wish someone would clearify how far appart they are really, it's become a major problem that people keep dissmissing. *sigh*

[Maybe42or54]

That may explain for simple minded commoners. As for Merchant houses and Noble houses?

The should hire the byn, since they are the foremost experts in what they do. Sure, inde mercenaries can twink their way to awesomeness before a bynner, and one inde warrior that killed more than once a day, and moved up on the scale of what they killed, Bamuk one day, raptor the next, mekillot the day after.

Noble houses should hire the Byn, or they'd be setting the example and everyone else wouldn't buy the best.
Get my point?

[Empress]

I don't think using the same argument with Bards vs. Circle Bards works with the Indy Mercenaries and the Byn.  The Circle bards are known to be the cream of the crop, no exceptions made.  They are the rock stars that everybody dreams about being when they're alseep at night.  The Byn, while there is no doubt they are good at what they do, and are the biggest established mercenary company in the known world, are also known to be low class drunken riff raff.  Please correct me if i'm wrong I know well to do officers of the Byn can command great respect, but i'm talking about the Byn as a whole.  While the Byn is without doubt the very best money can buy for certain things like hiring a mini army to take out a gith camp, or even guarding merchant wagons and stuff like that, there are many more delicate things that if I were an prospective employer, I wouldn't want to hire the Byn for.

As far as I know, the Byn operate in Tuluk and Allanak, and must respect the laws of both cities.  Many people probably have jobs that require a certain degree of discression and secrecy or even be against the law all together.  I think any REAL Indy mercenary group is lead by a very established and capable person who already has his own deep network of contacts and allies who will trust him on delicate matters.  I'm not saying that the Byn couldn't pull something like that off, but in general hiring the Byn might be a little more ambiguous than hiring from your own underground network.  Just remember if you see a noble or merchant house hiring an independent mercenary, maybe there is a good reason for it and maybe their employee/employer relationship goes back further and deeper than you think.

As for independent mercenaries being cheaper, I don't find that at all from my own personal experience.  I would agree an established house of any kind skimping out on hiring an absolute nobody because he is cheaper would look pretty bad, but if they did I would imagine it would catch up to them sooner or later.  
 :shock:

[EvilRoeSlade]

When you hire a mercenary, you're hiring someone who will die in the place of someone who you don't want to die.

I sure as hell would hire the cheapest mercenaries I can.  Therefore if you aren't being hired, lower your price.

[Agent_137]

Wrong.

That's ONE reason you might hire a merc.

Sometimes you don't have enough people on hand.

Other times, the mercs are better trained.

Other times, you want all the swords you can get.

Other times, you want the simplicity giving them one simple goal and knowing it will be carried out.

Othertimes, it's cheaper for you to hire some one than do it yourself. (outsourcing)

While the Byn aren't assassins, they are the best mercenary company in the known world. Hands down.

So of course don't hire them for a delicate assassination. Hire a free-lance assassin, or a small group of them. (When I say assassin, I don't mean guild_ assassin, necessarily.)

But if you need something blown up, broken, or sworded, you call the byn, 'cause they're the best. Period.

And you sure as hell can compare Large organizations hiring of the Byn to large organizations hiring of Circle bards. Both are recognized as the best, but maybe a little more expensive. And large organizations are going to want to hire just that, the best.

Granted, if you just want bodies to feed to the butcher, hire some indies.  [derail]But I find it dispicable that you'd go into a battle where you knew you'd have a good number of people die. That's poor generalship, which I see way too much of ingame. Sure, some commoner made leader might have an excuse, but templars and such should have been trained in unit combat. To make up for that OOC deficiency, go read some Sun Tzu, please.[/derail]

[wizturbo]

I think the reason is, sometimes jobs require a bit of brains to pull off, and with some noteable exceptions I've found the Byn to be lacking brains on numerous occasions.

The exceptions however, have been very impressive, and those people have received FAR more business because of it.

[Trenidor]

It wouldn't be too bad of an idea to limit the power the houses have with their guards just to have more PC interaction.

[creeper386]

[derail]

[derail]But I find it dispicable that you'd go into a battle where you knew you'd have a good number of people die. That's poor generalship, which I see way too much of ingame. Sure, some commoner made leader might have an excuse, but templars and such should have been trained in unit combat. To make up for that OOC deficiency, go read some Sun Tzu, please.[/derail]

Well, I seem to remember MANY accountings as to all sorts of use of fodder in battles. The whole, send in peasants and at the right time charge in with mounted calvary ussually expected fairly large footmen casualties. Due to the fact that they trampled their own men from time to time, and if they loose some of their troops to break the line and make the charge possible it was worth it, as it won battles.

Also, during the whole musket to musket combat, I'm sure the generals knew they were going to loose men. As lining up and shooting at each other tends to do. That doesn't mean they weren't tactical geniouses of there era and particular style of combat.

Creeper

[Agent_137]

Wrong eras, buddy. Guns don't apply. Neither does cavalry.

But this could become more of a discussion of the woeful inadequacies of the mud code dealing with large battles:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8331
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8236

or at least continue a discussion of what good battle tactics and strategies are:
http://www.sonshi.com/
http://forum.sonshi.com/


Lastly, just because somebody won battles doesn't mean they were great tacticians. See: Rome vs Hannibal. Hannibal rocked, Rome sucked. But Rome Won.

[Maybe42or54]

Numbers game in that one.
When you are a member of one of the richest families on the face of the desert, and you are buying the cheap shit instead of the best?

If a kadian or salarr did that, It would be telling everyone to just go with the cheapest.
And noble houses worrying about who is cheaper? That would tell me that the nobles are going broke.

But then PCs don't seem to use propoganda.

[Gaare]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12634&highlight=

Real Mercs will be soon in Byn..

What a post it is..

[EvilRoeSlade]

Sometimes you don't have enough people on hand.

To die.

A large organization always has enough people on hand, even if it isn't represented by a PC population.

Other times, the mercs are better trained.

That's just silly.  How could they be better trained when they're always dying?

Other times, you want all the swords you can get.

To die.

Other times, you want the simplicity giving them one simple goal and knowing it will be carried out.

I'm not even going to touch that, because I can't understand it.

Othertimes, it's cheaper for you to hire some one than do it yourself. (outsourcing)

Why would it be cheaper to hire out?  Probably because if one of your own people dies, you've lost thousands in the wages and sustenance you've put into her, but if a mercenary dies, you don't have to pay her?

While the Byn aren't assassins, they are the best mercenary company in the known world. Hands down.

Of course they are.  Their clan documentation says so.

And you sure as hell can compare Large organizations hiring of the Byn to large organizations hiring of Circle bards. Both are recognized as the best, but maybe a little more expensive. And large organizations are going to want to hire just that, the best.

A large organization does want to hire the best.  AS PERMANENT EMPLOYEES.  Mercenaries?  Hire the cheapest, because they're just going to die.

Granted, if you just want bodies to feed to the butcher, hire some indies.  [derail]But I find it dispicable that you'd go into a battle where you knew you'd have a good number of people die. That's poor generalship, which I see way too much of ingame. Sure, some commoner made leader might have an excuse, but templars and such should have been trained in unit combat. To make up for that OOC deficiency, go read some Sun Tzu, please.[/derail]

I doubt you've ever played a templar if you believe this.

[spawnloser]

I'm going to back ERS on this one.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Treindor wrote:

Pretty much the byn are too expencive, have a notority to have foul people in their midst, and they've been known to do some dirty deeds.

While this is certainly true, it doesn't say a lot for those few mercenaries who aren't even good enough for the Byn. Can you imagine that? Not good enough for the Byn? They'd have to be drunken, sadistic, semi-retarded animals willing to slit children's throats and ejaculate in their entrails for a tube of spice.
Of course, there are those few mercenaries that are too good for the Byn... but I'm pretty sure they'd be the exception, and not the rule. As ERS pointed out, mercenaries don't usually live long enough to be widely respected, skilled, and important enough to have their own contracts outside of a well-known and established mercenary company. Like the Byn.
With all that said, there are some reasons to hire independent mercs. Some one pointed out a good one; the T'zai Byn's strict policy of neutrality. The Byn will never take a contract to go and torch the Red Sun Commons, for example. Half their company is located there! A group of fanatical 'Nakki loyalists, however, who would like to be "compensated" for their service, might. And this is just one example.
In general, though, I think all the good contracts would probably be going to the Byn, and independent mercs or mercenary groups would really have to work hard to wrestle away some contracts from the Byn, or pick up the scraps the Byn wouldn't even touch. If the Byn is charging too much, the solution is simple... the Byn needs to charge less. That's the beautiful thing about a monopoly. You can drive down your prices to a stupidly low level, and even though you take heavy losses, you'll also demolish the competition in the process.
In conclusion, yes, independent mercenaries exist. And, yes, they will occasionally get a deal when the T'zai Byn doesn't. But the T'zai Byn will still dominate, and probably always will. So quit your whinin', Runner, and get back in those latrines!

[Angela Christine]

I had a character that got turned down by the Byn.  I even offered the Sarge twice the normal fee, and no dice.   :cry:  A 'rinther who didn't know her age, and apparently didn't look old enough (or at least that was his excuse).  So I offered to work in the kitchen, or pay 300 a year untill I DID look old enough.  Nope, they wouldn't have me.  Ok, my character was more interested in getting off the streets and safely out of sight until the heat died down from some other buisness rather than actually having a deep desire to become a mercenary, but still.  :twisted:

But the point is that there are people who the Byn rejects, people they don't want even as cannon fodder.  Including one poor bastard who shadowed the Sarge into the compound to prove that he wasn't a thief.   :shock:  That was a head scratcher.  The Byn has standards.


Angela Christine

[creeper386]

Some one pointed out a good one; the T'zai Byn's strict policy of neutrality. The Byn will never take a contract to go and torch the Red Sun Commons, for example. Half their company is located there!

Well, I seem to remember reading that the Byn participating in the wars between Tuluk and Allanak. They are nuetral, the same way Salarr is nuetral. They don't deal in the politics they just supply both sides.

Saying the Byn is nuetral so can't be hired for this or that against one of the city states is like saying Salarr can't sell to the city states if they play on using it against the other one.

A mercenary company who doesn't take advantage of war wouldn't probably make much money.


Creeper

[Agent_137]

http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/koreavet/merc.html

however, it was during the Middle Ages (1100-1500) that mercenaries were used most often. During this period many rulers hired trained professional soldiers to protect their states.

Mercenaries were used mostly during desperate times of war, many times not even paid or treated well for their services.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=2978

There's more, but I don't have time to find it.

Suffice to say, take off your blinders, ERS, look at history. If all you're doing is throwing bodies at your enemies and using mercs as a buffer, you're missing a huge part of tactics, strategy, and common sense.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I agree with ERS on this one as well. *cough* Don't tell anyone I said that though.  :?

[jhunter]

That kank was me. Whoops.

[Trenidor]

Treindor wrote:

Pretty much the byn are too expencive, have a notority to have foul people in their midst, and they've been known to do some dirty deeds.

While this is certainly true, it doesn't say a lot for those few mercenaries who aren't even good enough for the Byn. Can you imagine that? Not good enough for the Byn? They'd have to be drunken, sadistic, semi-retarded animals willing to slit children's throats and ejaculate in their entrails for a tube of spice.
Of course, there are those few mercenaries that are too good for the Byn... but I'm pretty sure they'd be the exception, and not the rule.

Heh...you said it yourself....

Either they're too good for the byn...(i.e. They don't like the drunken, pick picketing, friend killing industry that the Byn often times brings.) For the times that I was a mercinary, either I played that they were too good for the terrors byn life brings, or I joined the byn...it was that simple.

Anyways, here's the key to marketing:

1. Need
2. Cost
3. Supply
4. advertising
5. usefulness/durability

They're pretty much in order, first there has to be need for the product...No need, no worry. No one is going to buy a product that isn't even going to do anything for them.
Second, if it's overly priced, people will find another way around it (unless you play monopoly)
Third, is there enough supply for the demand? If they want 1000 units of your product, you better have 1000 units if you want to be sucessful, although if they have enough need or the cost is low, it can be passed by.
Then, you need to advertise your product, you can't expect people to just come right up to you and ask if you have (electro magnetic fuel cells). In the case of the Byn, all the members need to be out there constantly advertising: "Hey. I need money to live, I get money from missions, we're in town for now ready to do anything you want so hire us."
And finnally, if there's competition, and it's a close match between both's 1-4, then you need to have a more durible product, lasts longer, runs faster, etc.
That is why Mr. Mercinary is picked over the byn.
1. He finds out that people have a need
2. He is really cheap
3. He can't really compete with the Byn as far as safety goes, but he'll do if your only going to do a few things.
4. He's at the right place at the right time to advertise what you need
5. He's able to be ready and good to go the moment you are, he's faster because the larger the group the slower you'll end up going, and if he's got a lot of experence under his belt, then the two recruits that the byn brings along isn't going to be as good as he is.

That applies to large groups as well.
It's like buying the 8 hotdogs instead of 10 for the 8 buns you bought.
And if you really need a few mercinaries, hire 2 or 3 of them to fill the gap in supply that a lone mercinary is missing.

What I think would contribute to this would be if NPCs ran away from large groups of people

Example:
A couple gith roam the road (la di da de de)
If there's 1 or two people, no worries, there's enough of them to stop a small company.
When you get 4 or more however, the gith get scared and run off. Making your byn more wanted because there won't even be confrentation if there's too many to fight.

I think People also need to understand that Mercinaries are just hired grunts.

You can make them do whatever you want, hunt for you, gather supplies, kill that stupid twink that keeps throwing darts at you outside the tavern then running off, you could even get them to moon the tribal people off the shield wall if you wanted.

[Smelly Kank]

Now those were good lieutenants back to back.

[marko]

People do not use the Byn because, often times, using the Byn is prohibative and difficult.

Making arrangements with the Byn can be like pulling teeth - even when you play in the role of a templar or a noble.  

Therefore, while the documentation states that the Byn is great, the reality is often very different.  Sometimes the Byn is great and sometimes the Byn just plain sucks and no one in their right mind would hire them.

Thus, if the Byn is currently not being hired it is because the Byn currently sucks.  Steps should be taken to improve the availability and the usefulness of the Byn if this is the case.

As per the why use independant mercs instead of the Byn - The Byn has a checkered history of being able to A) complete missions and B) maintain client confidentiality.  If you are not confident in the Byn's ability to keep a mission quiet that needs to be quiet - you will not hire them.  

Another good reason to use indies is that often times you will find an independant group to be A) more available for your play times and B) more motivated to complete the mission successfully (because they have something to prove perhaps).  

We play a game and as such many of the leadership positions in military and para-military organizations simply have no real world experience or even knowledge of strategies and tactics.  I've encountered numerous people like this in my time playing.  Does it really matter?  No.  Why?  Well, because it is a game.  If this reason doesn't fly then let us look to history and note all the BAD generals and military leaders.  Not everyone has to be a military guru to play in these roles.  Bad generals are allowed and are to be expected.  The amount of actual conflict that occurs per generation is very limited and thus you'd not find many seasoned leaders.  Of course... this does become a reason to call upon the Byn... but, again, they are often not available.

[Armaddict]

I back ERS on this as well.

Someone posted about the book written by Machiavelli, "The Prince", or something similar.  Take a look at what he writes on auxiliary units and mercenaries.  I think the -majority- of nobles and templars, at least in allanak, are going to carry close to the same thoughts.

[Whira's Luck]

I have to chime in on this, I just can't help myself.

Put whatever arguments you want on it and while they have some merit, in any direction, they're pretty much stripped away in light of the game and players which is simply: Clans with active, engaging leaders flourish and get things done. Clans with absent/poor leaders, leaders who may be on at odd times (no matter how good they are) or clans with no leaders tend to flounder. The Byn is no exception.

When the Byn is active, with motivated, engaging leaders who go out and complete their missions gung-ho style, who impress other clan leaders with their leadership abilities and have other players recommending them, the Byn gets a LOT of work. Period. No ifs ands or buts. I have been in the Byn several times when Byn mercenaries were amassing ridiculous amounts of money simply because they were getting all the contracts and accomplishing them, then getting more contracts because they did a good job.

I have also been in the Byn when it was stagnant, barely any contracts were run, and characters were lucky to scrape together a hundred sid for the year.

I've also seen times when contracts were ignored when they were being thrust at them (Byn) or screwed up. It happens and it really boils down to what I mentioned above, which is the measure of any clan. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy... good leaders attract more good players who become good leaders and bring the clan to life. When the clan slows, and people are playing elsewhere, then it may be difficult to get it motivated.

If independant mercenaries are getting jobs, it just usually means that the Byn isn't available to do them for whatever reason.

*plink plink*

[LoD Snarf]

Whom hires whom is generally a question of perception by the employer.

The T'zai-Byn is a business like any other, and the Sergeants (salesmen) on the forefront are constantly selling themselves.  My opinion is that the best salesman will get the job, whether they be independant or otherwise.  If a mercenary group doesn't have a diplomatic, available and approachable leader then you can bet on not getting many assignements.

The few times I've run a mercenary group (T'zai-Byn and Independant) I've had success in getting enough work to keep things moving.  You build a solid reputation and you get plenty of work.  It's not easy - so if you find that you're losing contracts - try harder.

-LoD