Karma and Clans

[My 2 sids]

Sometimes not having enough leadership PCs in a clan can hurt the overall performance.  Having a sergeant or another PC leader (not just talking about nobles/Family) is very helpful; it gives new leaders an employee they can trust, and new recruits someone with whom they can interact.  In groups like the Byn, a sergeant can also just be helpful for new players.  Karma, by definition, tells everyone that said player can be trusted with new responsibilities and bringing good things to the game without abusing their power.  I'll propose that Karma may open up lower leadership roles in some clans. That way clans will hopefully always have solid PCs at any one time.  In groups where there a high rate of PC death (byn, guild, Tor, etc) where it can be hard for any player to keep their PC alive long enough to be promoted, it could make a lot of difference.  By having it based on Karma, instead of special apps sent to the staff, it would save a lot of time as well.

[wizturbo]

Sometimes not having enough leadership PCs in a clan can hurt the overall performance.  Having a sergeant or another PC leader (not just talking about nobles/Family) is very helpful; it gives new leaders an employee they can trust, and new recruits someone with whom they can interact.  In groups like the Byn, a sergeant can also just be helpful for new players.  Karma, by definition, tells everyone that said player can be trusted with new responsibilities and bringing good things to the game without abusing their power.  I'll propose that Karma may open up lower leadership roles in some clans. That way clans will hopefully always have solid PCs at any one time.  In groups where there a high rate of PC death (byn, guild, Tor, etc) where it can be hard for any player to keep their PC alive long enough to be promoted, it could make a lot of difference.  By having it based on Karma, instead of special apps sent to the staff, it would save a lot of time as well.

In some ways Karma already does this, but I strongly feel who gets leadership roles within a given clan should be restricted to whomever that clan's immortal wants.  If they've seen someone with only 1 karma who plays a great sergaent, then they can allow them to play it within their clan.  IF they've seen someone with 5 karma who really doesn't play the sergaent role well, they can decline it.  I don't think that Karma should be the keys to all roles, just the ones where game balance might be at stake.

[flurry]

I think there are important factors that aren't reflected in karma.   For instance: knowledge of that particular clan, current need for a leader of that type, ability to play a leader capably, etc.   Maybe you're right that there are some "lower leadership roles" where those things aren't as critical, but I don't know what they are (which may be because I've only played in a handful of clans).

[Seeker]

I am worried about the reverse.

I am always concerned about having potential roles "locked out" for (possibly) newer players without Karma.  

If the best way to get to be a sergeant with the Byn is by having already gotten Karma, instead of working your ass off IG with -this- character, whether you have Karma or not, then I think we moving in the wrong direction.


Seeker

[Delirium]

Seeker's on a roll today.

[Spoon]

How about if Imm's feel they need a leadership character, they post in the Staff Announcements and take applications (like they do now, but for lesser roles too).

[WarriorPoet]

I have a solid chunk of karma tucked away, but would never take a leadership role due to the fact that I have RL hangups about it. I like to roleplay, and if my accumulation of Karma is any gauge, the Immortals approve of my abilities and trust me with more delicate roles. This does not, in any way, mean I am a plot-starter or someone who could keep a five-player unit interested and absorbed for weeks on end.

Instead of basing these important roles off of acquired karma, I would just suggest that if you see a clan that is wanting for leadership, and you think that you are -just- the person for the job, mail the clan Imm and ask about your chances of getting a special app approved for the position. The Immortals know what's best for their clans, and if they feel that -you- are what's best for the clan and the players involved, they will act accordingly, regardless if you have delf or sorcerer Karma.

-WP

[facehugger]

I'd have to put in a negative to something like this.

Flurry was along the right idea. Karma is a reflection of what the staff views as good role-playing and trustworthiness. While these are also things that are good traits for a leadership position, they aren't at the core of what it takes to be a good leader. Leadership, the ability to work with other PCs, to come up with plots, be a good manager, etc, are often not very well reflected in Karma.

I've seen sorcerer karma players who are great with the role-play, but would make HORRIBLE leaders. And I've seen role-players that might not be top notch, but they happen to have the knack at mangement and coordination and make excellent leaders.

If you know that a particular clan is lacking in leadership, and you feel you had what it takes, you can always email the clan imm and special app. Who knows, you might even get accepted.

[Cuusardo]

Leadership is given on a case by case basis, whether it be by special app or by IC circumstances.  Karma really shouldn't have anything to do with it, IMO.

[da mitey warrior]

I think this sort of thing used to be fairly common.  It wasn't based on Karma, but if you were a fairly experienced player you used to be able to special app low-level leadership characters fairly easily by arranging things with the clan immortals.  I used to do it myself, to avoid the bother of working yourself up the virtual ranks in an inactive clan.  I still think it's a good idea, it just should be on a case-by-case basis, not on just Karma.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

My 2 sids wrote:

That way clans will hopefully always have solid PCs at any one time.

... by limiting the number of people that can fill positions? Sorry, but I don't get your point.
First of all, many people get their first taste of karma by accepting a leadership or otherwise high-profile position. I know I did. By taking away leadership roles from new players, a major chance for them to get noticed by the staff, prove themselves trustworthy, and get a bit of karma, you're really shooting the karma system in the foot. Eventually those experienced players with 3, 5, 6, 8 karma are going to leave, their computer will explode, they'll go to college, get married, etc. And you're stuck with a bunch of 0, 1, 2 karma people who can't take a leadership role because they never got the chance!
And besides, I can name at least two players who, with their first characters, rose to very succesful, influential and well-respected leadership positions. Anyways, this is a well-intended idea, but it's just not the best solution. In my opinion.

[deinol]

I think we should leave well enough alone. If you want to gain a leadership spot in a clan, join one. There are always ways to advance IC. No, you won't become a Noble that way, but we're taking about Sergeant and Lieutenant positions. If you want to be a leader, join a clan and stick with it. Don't abandon your Private when the Clan's numbers are low, stick with it. Recruit more people. Display leadership qualities with those new recruits, and it is very likely that you'll move up the ladder.

Nearly every leadership role I've been directly under has been just some other guy who had been with the house long enough to be molded into a leader. But you can't just start there. You have to move your way up the ladder. You have to have been chewed out by the Lieutenant for messing up enough times so that when you are in that leadership position, you'll know how to yell at your recruits when they screw up. Each house is different when it comes to discipline, so you have to know how that specific house operates before you move up in the ranks.

Obviously most of my experience is with military stuff, and that is the easiest to get involved in. But I'm sure it's mostly the same for the civilian roles and low-level agent stuff in most houses.

One of the things I love about Armageddon is that the class your character is has little to do with the station you end up socially. Make your own path, and strive for it. You can make all sorts of interesting characters with no karma if you put your mind to it. And when you make an interesting character, you'll get that karma anyway.

[Maybe42or54]

I've been in Four Leadership positions of note, and I -just- recently got a single Karma.

So, It might be okay, but if I was a runner in the byn, for let's say a year IC, and suddenly a sargeant pops up and orders me around that I've never seen before but says he owns my squad. I'll tell him to go fuck himself.

And how did I get into those leadership positions?
The Leader Died.

And I would be pissed, IC and OOC, if someone else just popped out of nowhere to take that place.

[Xamminy]

In a military organization, the leader of a squad, platoon or what have you is not always promoted from within that unit.  It doesn't matter if you'd be pissed, Maybe42or54, but that's how it works.

[Maybe42or54]

How he suggested it would work.
And you shouldn't be preaching to the choir by the way.

If the platoon commander wants the squad to still be 100%-ish loyal to him, he would promote from within the squad.
If he is a stubborn ass that gets laughed at behind his back, he hires from another unit.

I for one am not in favor of special app'ing any military leader IC, simply because they will get beat the hell out of by new recruits with awesome wisdom. And if that would happen, why was this sargeant worth promoting?

[Delirium]

Minor quibble: Combat ability is NOT the only requirement of rank. Being a leader involves a lot of work. Far, far more to it than having a high weapons skill and being able to parry.

[Maybe42or54]

If he has no combat ability, he had better be one hell of a strategist.
In a military organization, anyways.

[WarriorPoet]

So, instead of promoting someone who apps, you would allow the clan to do without? Remember, there are hundreds of vNPC's out there with your clan cloak on. Virtually, you would probably know them well. Hell, even if they're a complete stranger, -someone- thought they were right for the job.

I think that if the clan Immortal saw someone who they thought worthy of a leadership position, they would promote them. However, if you're saying that you 'deserve' the position because you've put in three months of playtime on your Private, I disagree wholeheartedly. If you truly deserve the role of leader, you would get it. I know that I, as a person who plays mostly 'follower' characters, would prefer to have someone the immortals trust special app and come in, rather than have someone who gets the position on tenure and nothing else.

Don't get me wrong, if there is a char worthy of promotion active, then by all means, let them become Lieutenant of the Savage Scrabs. But the clan Immortals know what's is best for the clan, and if they think that the clan as a whole would be better served by passing over your 'long lived' Private, I say grin and bear it.

-WP

[Maybe42or54]

No, I'm saying that this guy promoted from another unit better be able to fight his way out of a bag of jozhals.

Instead of a "basic boost to his most neccesary skills."

Which is complete BS, In my opinion.

[Akaramu]

If anything, it should be easier for players who have the potential to be great leaders to prove themselves, not even harder. There arent enough leader players who are able to log in regularly and fairly often. We need more leaders, not discourage those who could potentially do well even more.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Maybe they aren't always promoted from the unit, but I believe they should be.    In my experience the best, strongest leaders I have ever served under in the game were PCs who started out as 0-level grunt recruits and slogged their way through all the levels under them.  They developed contacts and relationship as they rose through the ranks.  Other PCs respected them for their accomplishments and, the few that didn't, soon learned to from the other PCs.


Some of the worst PC leaders I ever played under/with were Insta-Authorities.  The kind where you take one Imm-approved application, add water, and shake.  Poof!  "Hi, I'm your boss and as soon as I introduce my name to everyone, I'll get around to completely messing up the way you all do things because I'm In Charge!  I don't care that you've been serving Clan Butternut for 20 IC years, you still have to prove yourself to me.  Now, you, go find me a big-titty assistant."


There are exceptions to this, but generally it is how I've seen it.  

I vote no for karmic requirements on leadership roles.   I would MUCH rather see clan documentation that listed specific criteria for promotions.  I have seen some downright bad decisions made to promote PCs just because there was an OOC need for one, just because they've been in the clan forever, or just becuase they had a high Off/Def skill.  (Yeah, I'll admit it, once I was one of those bad promotion decisions.)  For players who desire a leadership role, I think the clan docs should lay out exactly what the Imms' requirements for that clan are.   If the clan gets a new Imm, they should look at and re-edit the docs to fit their style of management.

It could look a lot like what is posted when the Imms announce openings in specific clans, maybe?

[wizturbo]

Maybe they aren't always promoted from the unit, but I believe they should be.    In my experience the best, strongest leaders I have ever served under in the game were PCs who started out as 0-level grunt recruits and slogged their way through all the levels under them.  They developed contacts and relationship as they rose through the ranks.  Other PCs respected them for their accomplishments and, the few that didn't, soon learned to from the other PCs.


Some of the worst PC leaders I ever played under/with were Insta-Authorities.  The kind where you take one Imm-approved application, add water, and shake.  Poof!  "Hi, I'm your boss and as soon as I introduce my name to everyone, I'll get around to completely messing up the way you all do things because I'm In Charge!  I don't care that you've been serving Clan Butternut for 20 IC years, you still have to prove yourself to me.  Now, you, go find me a big-titty assistant."


There are exceptions to this, but generally it is how I've seen it.  

I vote no for karmic requirements on leadership roles.   I would MUCH rather see clan documentation that listed specific criteria for promotions.  I have seen some downright bad decisions made to promote PCs just because there was an OOC need for one, just because they've been in the clan forever, or just becuase they had a high Off/Def skill.  (Yeah, I'll admit it, once I was one of those bad promotion decisions.)  For players who desire a leadership role, I think the clan docs should lay out exactly what the Imms' requirements for that clan are.   If the clan gets a new Imm, they should look at and re-edit the docs to fit their style of management.

It could look a lot like what is posted when the Imms announce openings in specific clans, maybe?

Amen.

[Xamminy]

Requirements for promotion in most clans: Be responsible.  Obey the rules.  Find stuff for people to do.  Have leadership ability.  Don't be a tool.  There's nothing coded necessary and no quest to defeat.

[Cuusardo]

It's a fact of life that sometimes leaders will not be good, whether they are promoted from within, or if they are brought in from an outside source.  Sometimes apped leader positions are filled by a bad leader.  Every clan is going to have some poor leaders from time to time, no matter what, and I think that is how it should be to add realism to the game.  (You can't tell me that you've never had a job where you had a manager or boss wasn't living up to what he should be.)

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Requirements for promotion in most clans: Be responsible.  Obey the rules.  Find stuff for people to do.  Have leadership ability.  Don't be a tool.  There's nothing coded necessary and no quest to defeat.

I really wish that were always the case, but it hasn't been my experience with the game these past four years or so.

Outside of a special application, there are other requirements that seem to have equal (or greater) importance when it comes to promotion.  Be buff enough to live a long time.  Recruit like a carnival barker.  Train 'em like a bored Bynner.

[Maybe42or54]

In my experience, I've had 10 "leaders" above me. 7 were really good leaders, 2 were alright and one was OMFG HOW DID HE GET PROMOTED.

I think it is perfect that way.

And I have had the most fun playing my leaders, they always start out bad and work their way to greatness, one missing finger at a time.

[Marauder Moe]

Discriminating against a new leader because you OOCly know he didn't actually get all his battle-scars in-game is just wrong, though.

Granted, I do STRONGLY believe that history played out in the game always seems much stronger than history written in one's background and usually makes for a much better character.  But still, from everyone else's IC point of view it should be no different.  

Besides, said character probably exists to help get a failing clan/unit back on its feet rather than because some player special app'ed an advanced character out of laziness.

Back on topic: I don't think Karma should let you special app for a role like this.  As I said, I think these roles should be offered by the staff to help suffering clans, not requested by players who want skill/social boosts.