Should newbie Contact skill be set higher?

[wizturbo]

What do you all think?  Is there any real point to this, other than making sure the entire PC population knows your character is brand new?

[Forest Junkie]

I totally agree. And while the staff is at it, let's max each skill for our classes, or raise the starting cap, because God knows it would be sucky if everyone knew our pc's were new. Hell, they'll eventually be badass, let's just start them off uber!

In other words...no.  :roll:

[Trenidor]

Mistakes are one way people learn...if the noob has to pass out in the wilds and be eaten, at least they'll know better next time.

[Spoon]

I SERIOUSLY agree. I've got my serious face on right now.

I mean, it's not like your character hasn't been using the way their entire life so far...... Should all races start talking their default language at n00b level?

And as for me, being a European player (actually because no-one wants to talk to me) my characters don't meet enough people to psi their brainz out to. I've had one situation where being able to even contact someone standing the other side of a door would have saved my PC's eyeball.

[Bestatte]

I wouldn't mind seeing newbies come with a single bump up with the contact skill.

Not enough that they'd actually succeed regularly, but enough that they'd have a better chance at finding the mind of whoever they're looking for within the first 5 tries.

I don't think that's unreasonable, considering the amount of stun points lost with each attempt at newbie level. Keep that the same, just kick up the success rate a notch, and I think that would be very fair, and still something the newbie would need to work on.

[jhunter]

I SERIOUSLY agree. I've got my serious face on right now.

I mean, it's not like your character hasn't been using the way their entire life so far...... Should all races start talking their default language at n00b level?

This is how I feel about it too.

[Majikal]

Look at it this way, when my char gets good at something I feel a sense of accomplishment.. when I get to where I'm having decent conversations over the way, I feel I've improved my char in a good way. So I'm against this as well, but I sympathize too, Shitty contact is very.. shitty.

[Vanth]

Without going into too much detail, the recent (a year ago?  two?) change to psi made it easier to learn.  The staff might well consider a change to newbie psi, but I think that would have to be balanced by slowing learning rates.

However, this is an interesting conversation, and my comment (only my opinion, not that of the staff as a whole) is that I understand the reasoning that contact is something that most people use routinely, long before they become played PCs.  However, I am curious if players would accept a slowing learning rate in 'exchange' for a raised starting level.

[creeper386]

I voted yes, but it's more along the lines of a minor boost to stave off accidently passing out due to OOC difficulties.

Although as I see it the way is a fairly easy thing to get proficient with. So it's not too big of a deal as long as you have time to practice before it's important.

Too big of a deal. Practice with some NPC someplace.


creeper

[Angela Christine]

I'm torn.  On the one hand newbie contact sucks in much the same way as newbie ride: if you need to use it, not being able to use it is maddening.  

On the other hand, I am concerned that universally boosting contact could have an impact on the class or classes with skills that branch off Contact.  Ok, psionicists aren't that common, but any adjustment to psionics has the potential to unbalance them.


AC

[wizturbo]

Without going into too much detail, the recent (a year ago?  two?) change to psi made it easier to learn.  The staff might well consider a change to newbie psi, but I think that would have to be balanced by slowing learning rates.

However, this is an interesting conversation, and my comment (only my opinion, not that of the staff as a whole) is that I understand the reasoning that contact is something that most people use routinely, long before they become played PCs.  However, I am curious if players would accept a slowing learning rate in 'exchange' for a raised starting level.

I would love to see the following:

1.  Have newbie psionic skills set to a reasonable level from the very beginning.  Humans having somewhat of an advantage based on their disposition to psionics.

2.  Have psionic skills grow at a slow rate beyond the starting levels.

3.  For humans to have a slightly increased learning rate, along with a higher potential cap compared to the other races to reflect their psionic aptitude as outlined in the docs.

[Xamminy]

Boosting starting contact across the board?  Eh...maybe?

Boosting it and lowering learn rate?  No.  That'll penalize psionicists more than help them, I'm sure.

I voted no anyway.  I think everything is fine.

[My 2 sids]

I think its quite hard to get the idea that a PC has been around "for his or her entire life" when the basic skills like cooking or PSI tell a different story.  I think the PSI should be easier for the same reason we updated 'What you know' and 'Maps', because realistically people would know these things and be used to doing them.

[SpyGuy]

The problem I see with this is the same problem with any other skill.  I make my uber ranger/hunter who has been roaming the wastes for years making his living kill things.  Now I can barely take on a tandu without taking some serious damage.  Can't shoot arrows well.  Don't know what the hell tracks look like.  And can't contact anyone.  You get the picture.

Newbie contact sucks, really it does.  But its just being new, and contact happens to be one of the easiest skills to actually get to a decent level where you aren't passing out.  Just like how you have to play off not being able to defend yourself well at first you also just need to play off not being good at contact skills.

It sucks but it passes quick, so I voted no.

[Praetorian]

I am see two 'themes' in this debate.  On one hand, you have pc's that have technically used psionics their entire life but when they enter game it just so happens they can't very well.  Also you have those that are concerned that adjusting learning rates and such would be unbalancing.  Why not instead adjust bonuses to -all- characters as far as what contact starts at, based on pc age on creation?  If someone plays a child then their psionic abilities are naturally under-developed.  If someone makes a 65 year old man, then they would enter the game with an appropriately higher psionic skill ability.  Heck, maybe just make the starting contact skill = character age.  If you create a 15yr old then you suck, if you create a 50yr old then hey, you aren't too bad.  If you want to reflect different racial 'predispositions' toward such then adjust a racial bonus or penalty at that point, when created.  (like +5 to human, -5 to dwarf, whatever)

- Prae

[Marauder Moe]

Or perhaps psi should be based more heavily off wisdom, since wisdom is based somewhat off of age?  Just a thought.

[mansa]

I voted no, because I remember when it used to suck even more.  I remember when it used to take 40 stun points to contact someone.  I remember when it used to take off stamina points to contact someone.  I know someone who says they remember when it used to take off hit points when you tried to contact someone.

[Trenidor]

Ewww! Hit Points...

Now that would be fun...

Anyways...I said no and I meant no...

There isn't a need for people to have higher psi rate...it takes like what...3 RL days of trying to find someone (and in my case I Think they were offline most of the time, heh) to get your psi up to average.

Twinks just need to learn how to break at the right moment. And in fact....I don't think the majority of the population relies on psi for anything. It's so much easier and convenient to just talk in person where emoting works and you can say a hell of a lot more.

[Cale_Knight]

Speaking as an actual newbie, I can say that the contact thing was very frustrating, especially when so-and-so told me to contact so-and-such, and I promptly knocked myself out trying. I'm doing better after 30 hours on the character or so, but I don't relish starting over when I make a new character.

I think this is one of the things that experienced players take in stride, but is very difficult (and maybe not necessary) for new people.

[Maybe42or54]

I Ko myself all the time. Adds to the RP, I think.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Incidentally, it doesn't take a newb to KO yourself psi-ing. Just lacking attention at a crucial moment. I know. I did it the other day, with a char who's got a decent play-time. And I agree, the  starting contact is frustrating, but with practice it builds up quickly enough it isn't a burden, at least in my experience. If you're going to start a character that's absolutely crucial they have to have better than starting psionics, conferring with the staff might be a good bet. Even more so if you discuss it with them before starting the character.

So I'd say no, it's alright the way it is, and just remind people starting to practice, newbie or just someone starting another char after having one long-lived, because it gets easy to forget how little a starting char can do after having one that's had a decent life-span.

[Cuusardo]

Non-newbs do it from time to time.  I've been guilty of not paying attention to my stun and KOing myself as a result.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I don't really get what would be bad about improving psi across the board. All it would do would allow people to psi more. To me, that means more intrigue, more distrust, more playability, and more vesatility.
Of course, I'm sort of an extremist on the issue. If I had it my way, newbs would be able to psi standing up.

[Angela Christine]

I don't really get what would be bad about improving psi across the board.

Suppose that a psionicist branches BrainBlasto when their Contact skill gets to 50%.  A psion that contacts a lot may get there in just a few days, much like a ranger that Rides a lot can branch Charge in a few days.  Now suppose that Contact is fiddled so that everyone starts at 50%.  Does BrainBlasto become a starting skill for psions, is the branch point moved up to 65%, or something else?  If Brainblasto is now a starting skill, then they will get access to all the skills that branch off of it sooner too, so that instead of on average branching Mindmelt on day 10, they now branch it on day 7.   (Note:  as far as I know Brainblasto and Mindmelt are not real skills).

The other problem comes in the balance between Contact and Barrier.  It seems logical to me that learning to protect yourself from unwanted psionics would be something you would do at an early age, possibly even before learning to establish Contact yourself.  Psi and Contact can easily be used as a form of psychological torture, just imagine if your bratty big sister could reach into your mind to taunt you.   :shock:   If newbie Contact is boosted then is newbie Barrier boosted too, or are these two opposing skills left seriously unbalanced?  If Barrier is boosted, this may have unintended consequences for psionicists and any others with unusual psionic abilities.

Besides, if Contact is too easy, you might as well replace it with Tell.  


Angela Christine

[Bestatte]

I think AC's perception of it is on the extreme of why psi should -not- be boosted for newbies.

Here's my perception for why it wouldn't be bad - and note I don't know the numbers, I'm making it up.

All newbies start out between 1% and 10% skill, currently, depending on their class, wisdom, whatever the heck else goes into determining the skill rank.

A proposed change is to give newbies a -small- boost. That doesn't mean 50% at all. Maybe instead of 1% - 10% it could be raised so the minimum is now 5% and the max starting skill level is at 15%.

Or if you wanna talk ranks rather than percentages, we can pretend it's on a 20-rank system (again, since I don't have any idea what the numbers are).

Newbs might start at 1 or 2 depending on the usual variables. So boost it so they start at either 2 or 3 instead.

It's hardly enough of a boost that would cause a balance change, but -just- enough that the odds of a newbie passing out are slightly reduced, and the odds of them actually contacting someone within the first 5 tries are slightly improved.

[Linedel]

Armageddon has many other flaws that break "realism" in worse ways than this.  Realism arguments here are irrelevant.

Starting with low contact is a good thing.  It allows you to roleplay that you suck at psionics for a while.  How is that bad?

Oh no, you can't psi the Tzai'Byn Sergeant in your city, whom you've never met, in the first 5 minutes of character creation?

[Bestatte]

You also can't psi the templar who just hired you, who you are sitting next to at his table, to warn him that the guy at the bar is the one who you overheard wanted to kill the templar's pet soldier this morning.

I can think of many reasons why a *slight* boost to starting psi would be a good thing, and no reasons why it would be a bad thing.

[mansa]

You also can't psi the templar who just hired you, who you are sitting next to at his table, to warn him that the guy at the bar is the one who you overheard wanted to kill the templar's pet soldier this morning.

I have a character that has less than one day playing time, that did something like that, very recently.

[jmordetsky]

I'm either for making it much easier, or much much harder.

I don't like the way. I've never been a fan. I think it's around for the sake of playability. That said, much needed playability.

So...I say either let it be wielded more freely by all without fear of falling onto the floor and looking like a 2 hour old.

Or

Turn it into something that can only be honed through years of hard work and skill. IE, give it value as a skill.

*shrug*

[Trenidor]

...Turn it into something that can only be honed through years of hard work and skill. IE, give it value as a skill.

*shrug*

It already is a skill I believe...it's just so easy right now that some kiddies think they can leave it on forever without passing out...which isn't the case.

[flurry]

I think it's fine as it is.

[Linedel]

You also can't psi the templar who just hired you, who you are sitting next to at his table, to warn him that the guy at the bar is the one who you overheard wanted to kill the templar's pet soldier this morning.

So, roleplay that you suck at psionics, and have something important to tell him in the back room...  Seriously, not complicated.

I can think of many reasons why a *slight* boost to starting psi would be a good thing, and no reasons why it would be a bad thing.

Sure, raising it so people that don't take a failure as failure only need to contact 4 times instead of 10 might seem insignificant.. but eh...   nevermind.

Slippery slope.  Why can't my PCs start as Tektolnes?


Edit addition:

Whee, no new posts.. so I can just edit in the "IC justification" I thought of last night...

Being good at psionics is like being good at cursive.  It's a whole heck of a lot easier to just say something than practicing, and in most situations, it doesn't matter what you do.  Unlike cursive, which just takes effort, psionics can actually hurt your head if you suck at it.  It takes a ton of mental exertion, and makes you tired.

There's a good reason not every 20 year old is a master.  Ever see a doctor's handwriting?

Yes, the game documentation says everyone has an affinity for psionics, but it doesn't say everyone cared enough as a youth to develop that affinity into something practical.

[Cale_Knight]

Yes, the game documentation says everyone has an affinity for psionics, but it doesn't say everyone cared enough as a youth to develop that affinity into something practical.

It also doesn't in any way imply that every single person in the Known World waits until they're at least 20 years old to develop it. Or are PCs just lazier than the rest of the world?

[Maybe42or54]

It implies that not many (NPC, VNPC, PC are the exception) care enough to develop it when they always live in the same spot most of their lives with everyone they are ever going to need to contact within earshot of them.

And besides, Pc's start devolpping their Psi when they finally have to contact people new to them, I'd say.

This explains for most of the population of PCs, except for merchant house and nobles and junk.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'd like to change my vote.

Seems like every new PC I cook up, I pass out at least once early on from use of the Way.  I can't avoid it, even though I try.

Every time, however, has led to interesting and amusing RP as a result.  So... I say keep things the way they are.  I'm sure I'll pass out with my next character too.

[elvenchipmunk]

It's fine the way it is. I've personally only passed out about once I believe from use of the way, and I think that was when I types contact <person> twice by accident, and it took off more stun than I had intended... :oops:

And if you're really against keeping it the way it is, just think...you're giving the thieves something to live for