Feedback on Policy Changes

[Sanvean]

It's been about three months since we implemented the policy changes outlined here, and as this experiment draws to an end and we look at the results, I'd like to get some feedback from the players.

So...how have any or all of the following affected you?  Good or bad?

1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.

3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

[Tamarin]

I really didn't notice much of a difference.  In fact, a lot of the emails I sent to staff went totally unanswered.  So if this was supposed to free up time for the staff to work on other things, I didn't see it, quite frankly.

[EvilRoeSlade]

In my four years of playing I have never

Made a special order through a merchant

Played a merchant

Created a clan

Requested a description change

And nope, I didn't notice any difference.  Except since the change I've never created an item or NPC unless asked to specifically.  And uhh... whenever a staff member posts a request like that on the GDB, I consider it as though they've asked me personally.

[Maybe42or54]

So...how have any or all of the following affected you?  Good or bad?


6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

With the "Change locdesc" this is actually quite simple. Except for the two an entire lifetime, because frankly, my last PC needed two withen a span of two weeks, but I didn't and was forced to miss out on a lot of RP because of it. (It would have just been confusing to anyone if i just emoted it)

Other than that, nothing has really affected me.

[Larrath]

1) As someone who likes to write up objects when I'm feeling bored, I'm not exactly pleased about these restrictions, but I also see the problem in having fifty types of 5k+ pink silk gowns.

What I suggest, then, is just more freedom in writing objects - both the Current Projects blog, but maybe also a more general thing, also, for each category of items.
If you want to write more stonework/crafting items, for example, one could mention that more dining utensils will be useful (or at least more useful than another carving set on the incense burners).


2) I don't really like this change either, since it's taking away something that ICly exists and can be meaningful to several players.  Maybe special orders could be made to only be possible to make with direct PC help, be it hunters/Bynners going to bring the materials, or the crafters creating it in some RPT-like fashion.


3) I think that crafting submissions are one thing that we cannot have too much of, as long as they aren't boring and redundant.  It also promotes skillmaxing, and isn't perfectly logical.  Even a mediocre stonecrafter can make an Izdari disk with a different carving on it, and this actually had a negative effect on my PC crafter.  He could have gone in different directions had he been able to carve various insignias on objects.


4) I think that every object in the game has to be held to high standards, with no regard to who wrote it.  This is a good change.


5) I see absolutely no reason why clans should be forced open or closed.  If nobody is playing House Tenneshi and everyone wants to see, say, Lyksae open, then I don't see why this should be such a huge deal.  Also, I don't see why it should be impossible for long-lived PCs to create their own clans.
If super long-lived (150 day and up) PCs are made exception to this, then the rule is pretty much meaningless because there is going to be an exception almost everywhere after half a year.  If there are no exceptions then I believe this will do more harm than good.

Everyone always seems to proud in the interactivity of Armageddon in relation to any other MUD.  Our players besieged Allanak.  Our players freed Tuluk.  Our players made the Atrium.

This change, as I see it, is a step against all of these things.


6) Description changes should be limited by RL time, and nothing else.  It's practically impossible to predict when a non-suicidal/intelligent PC will die, and having to constantly save up your desc change because you might need it in two months can get annoying.
One desc change per two RL months is a good guideline, I think.  Most don't live that long anyway.

[Agent_137]

I've noticed zero difference, primarily because I never (similar to ERS)

Submitted anything

Made a special order through a merchant

Played a merchant

Created a clan

I did request a desc change once. It was cool. I was glad I got it. I would have been really sad if I didn't get it. But then my char died not long after, and it didn't really matter. I don't think anyone noticed but me. But it was still cool as hell.

Now, for my analysis:

Limiting submits to projects is bogus. Just say, "Only projects will be worked on. Any non project submits will go into a pool of non project submits that may or may not happen." Then, everyone is happy.

Special orders are lame. I hope they stay dead.

This merchant master crafter thing is great. A master crafter should have that freedom. If some one wants a super special item, they can damn well find the right crafter and convince him to spend all sorts of time on it.

A forever lock down on "No player created clans" would be very very damaging to this world. Better to say, "player created clans will have to go to great lengths to prove their survivbility before an immortal will devote time to making it coded." That way, everyone is happy.

Description changes should be limited by time played, and that's that. You play more, you'll need more of a desc change. Simple. Maybe make an exception every now and then for the guy who leaves arma for 4 years and comes back with a 30 year old "teenager." But otherwise, limited by time played.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I've done almost none of the above myself, so really have noticed no changes either. The only thing that applies to me is desc changes, and I agree it should be on a RL time limit. I haven't met too many REALLY long lived chars, but I can't imagine starting a char at the age of 20, and only being allowed 2 desc changes by the time they hit age 60.

But I am glad the part about plotlines is in the current thing, because sometimes it becomes necessary for someone to change their looks, not just decide it's time for a haircut, or something, and 2 desc changes would cut down on creative sneakiness.

I do think in addition, if someone has a recently made char and belatedly realized there's some wonky typo(s) that neither they nor the IMM caught (y'know, 4 am writing does have its drawbacks  :wink: ) then that shouldn't count against the total either. Now if they write every week with one new typo discovered, then someone ought to chew their ass then shoot them. *shrug*

[Delirium]

6) Description changes should be limited by RL time

I think one description change per 3 RL months is reasonable.

Doubtfully a character will need a description change even that often, but characters that start young and end up living to grow old may need more than two description changes their entire life, especially if they suffer any disfiguring and/or appearance-changing events.

[HardCarbon]

Hmmm what have I noticed..

Item X  should effect skill Y  except it effects unrelated skills Z and Borg

Example.. why is a Mining Pick good for skinning.. yet does not effect forage stone (no idea if it can be used for various mining things yet)


If I am digging for roots etc.. why does a hoe or shovel not aid?  (and how the feck do I know the hoe is a magic item?)

 Of all these handy tools.. why can't I tell which one to use for a task..

[jhunter]

5) I see absolutely no reason why clans should be forced open or closed. If nobody is playing House Tenneshi and everyone wants to see, say, Lyksae open, then I don't see why this should be such a huge deal. Also, I don't see why it should be impossible for long-lived PCs to create their own clans.
If super long-lived (150 day and up) PCs are made exception to this, then the rule is pretty much meaningless because there is going to be an exception almost everywhere after half a year. If there are no exceptions then I believe this will do more harm than good.

Everyone always seems to proud in the interactivity of Armageddon in relation to any other MUD. Our players besieged Allanak. Our players freed Tuluk. Our players made the Atrium.

My opinion of it as well.

Special orders are lame. I hope they stay dead.

Me too. There is almost always an alternative that already exists. No reason to waste time making another one that's only slightly different.

[LBO]

It seems to me that there have been quite a few little nifty code changes such as the command_emotes, resting on beds, etc. as well as a number of bug fixes over the past couple of months. I would guess that the policy changes have had something to do with this as the Imms have more time on their hands to look at background issues.

I'm not pushed about the no new clans thing personally. There is a great variety already out there with existing clans that will meet most desires in my opinion. Anyway, you want to start up a clan? Go for it - there's nothing stopping you. Not getting your nifty clan base, etc. coded especially just for your group doesn't mean that you can't have a good time playing things out or that you won't be successful. Examples such as besieging Allanak or forming the Atrium which required coded backup are fine but these are two examples many RL years apart created by players over a very long time with considerable effort on their part. If you want to emulate these players I say try it anyway - I would think that the Imms would not be inconsiderate to somebody who put in such effort and showed a sustained ability to generate realistic RP consistently for their fellow players over a long period of time. While things are locked down now the Imms have left the door open for re-evaluation but I think it should be something quite special indeed to become coded. Some group of elves scratching a living out in the Tablelands? Forget about it.

Overall the policy changes, while maybe appearing a little draconian at first,  seem good to me. I haven't noticed any drop in my enjoyment of the game and I like the improvements that are being added continually.

[Cuusardo]

I disagree with only two changes to characters being the limit.  Sometimes things happen IC that call for more changes.  I think a time limit between changes would be better.

As far as for closed clans, it's my opinion that there is one that is currently closed that needs to be reopened: Lirathan templars.  It is far too easy for certain people to get away with certain things in Tuluk, because logically the Lirathans should be able to sniff those things out and take action.  And since NPC Lirathans just sit there idly when there is no one animating them, many things go unnoticed.

Special items and special orders, however, I completely agree with.  There are tons and tons of really nifty items already in the game, and I think we really don't need fifty unique pink silk gowns, or a hundred unique gurth shell shields and what have you.  The game is not about objects, it is about roleplay.  Chances are there is already an item that exists that can suit the needs and desires of people.

[Akaramu]

1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog

Thats the only one I have a problem with. I find it extremely disappointing if players are not encouraged to contribute something that might enhance the world (as opposed to submissions their PC would profit from).

Like Agent_137, I would find a 'pool' of unrequested submissions that may be implemented or not much preferrable.

3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month.

This is great. More motivation for crafters to want to get somewhere with their role.

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

Were those guidelines published, or are they still in the works?

[ale six]

I haven't been around long enough to have reason to comment on anything but the description change rule, but I wanted to echo the other people asking to make description changes based on real life time instead of a character's lifetime. One desc change every 2-3 RL months seems reasonable to me.

[Anonymous]

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

Wait that doesn't seam fair...unless it only refers to clans that are family clans or re-opening clans that are already made and just need re-opening.

That's like telling the sun not to rise one day just because it'll save someone the time of waiting to go back to bed.

Really though...if you're making an IC organization, and you're doing things properly, then shouldn't it be fair to go ahead and open a new clan?

I hate to say it but I've been effected by that one, and not just minorly effected, I'll put it this way: I didn't know that was a rule back when it came, and those three months pretty much ruined an entire character for me.

Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, re-state or ammend that rule.

[Trenidor]

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

This may or may not have effected me...I really don't know for sure, but about the time these rules were instated I believe I missed out on a much needed desc change, came back after a long break from arm (a couple months) and nothing has changed...

[Vanth]

Hmmm what have I noticed..

Item X  should effect skill Y  except it effects unrelated skills Z and Borg

Example.. why is a Mining Pick good for skinning.. yet does not effect forage stone (no idea if it can be used for various mining things yet)


If I am digging for roots etc.. why does a hoe or shovel not aid?  (and how the feck do I know the hoe is a magic item?)

 Of all these handy tools.. why can't I tell which one to use for a task..

Just as an FYI, these things can be noted by you, and fixed by us, if you use the 'idea' 'bug' or 'typo' commands.  Unfortunately, we're not all psychic yet.

[Gaare]

2-) By reducing the number of new items,  PC crafters had more chance to trade with other PCs which means more RP opportunities. That was something very good.

5-) I feel there are more players in coded clans ,which have rich documentation and background, right now and that's very positive change. Maybe IMMs decide change this policy in VERY rare occasions and IF that would be a good addition to game (IMHO I doubt ARM really needs IMM supported and documented, a new D-elf tribe, a new merchant house, a new warrior group, a clan of mercenaries, a new 'rinth gang, etc... )

Other than these, recently there had been great code changes and additional scripts. (Weather, emote, archery, sit, change, etc....) "THANKS FOR THEM ONCE MORE"  As a player I did not know how exactly the policy changes affect IMMs, but if you could find more free time for working on codes... Then I believe those policies should stay.

[DejaVu]

I really didn't notice much of a difference.  In fact, a lot of the emails I sent to staff went totally unanswered.  So if this was supposed to free up time for the staff to work on other things, I didn't see it, quite frankly.

Ditto.

[Ghost]

.... recently there had been great code changes and additional scripts. (Weather, emote, archery, sit, change, etc....) "THANKS FOR THEM ONCE MORE"  As a player I did not know how exactly the policy changes affect IMMs, but if you could find more free time for working on codes... Then I believe those policies should stay.

[sarahjc]

It's been about three months since we implemented the policy changes outlined here, and as this experiment draws to an end and we look at the results, I'd like to get some feedback from the players.

So...how have any or all of the following affected you?  Good or bad?

1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

This is good n my opinion. It promoted efficiency and helps projects along.

2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.


3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

I liked this/didn't like it.  I wanted a special item during this time and there were no PC master crafters that could get one to me.  I agree there are lots of nice tings in the database, and substitutions could be easily made, but I  don't know how much useful time this freed up for the staff.  I think special items should be a stringent case by case type of thing.

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

Again, this is also good and promoted efficiency.

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

I think if you have people that want to play in a clan, you should allow that clan.  Especially player run clans that require little Imm support.

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

I think this should be a case by case basis. I would say that if you give a PC a max of three and then allow life altering event changes, then this is just fine.


Over all throughout this time, I did not feel an overwhelming staff presence in the game.  I didn't notice more clann imm interaction than usual, in fact my Clan Imm interaction has declined a bit. I also have not  seen very many NPC animations.

One thing I have noticed is less crashes, more updates, bugs fixed, new code implemented, turnaround time on question to the mud and from my own immortals greatly improved.  

It seems to me as if the break simply gave the Immortals a chance to do some very much needed house cleaning.  Which in and of itself is a good thing.  Cleaning the motor will certainly help it run better.

[Xamminy]

I'll note, since there seems to be some confusion, you can start up your own organization or family in game.  The rule about 'no new clans' simply means that there will be no coded support, as in the clan itself would not be coded into the game like the roughly hundred other clans in the game, many of which most people have never heard of.

[Anonymous]

I can't say for certain that its a result of this policy change, but I've noticed an *incredible* reduction in the time it takes to complete orders in a certain merchant house.  As for everything else, I can't really comment that its affected me any.

[Trenidor]

I'll note, since there seems to be some confusion, you can start up your own organization or family in game.  The rule about 'no new clans' simply means that there will be no coded support, as in the clan itself would not be coded into the game like the roughly hundred other clans in the game, many of which most people have never heard of.

I agree that it really isn't that great to have hundreds of unknown clans out there that no one knows about, but why not just eliminate them do to some IC reason if no one is in them and nothing is done about it?

It wouldn't be that hard to send on of the major delf tribes out to kill their puny neighbor who lives somewhere else and doesn't bother to even have trade negotiations that are meaningful.

In the case of the other type of clan, ones that players establish for themselves, I guess it depends on the clan.

Some sneaky groups living in the rinth I don't think should have their own custom hideout because really there's plenty of places one could 'say' is their hideout and just that they can't quit out. They wouldn't really need staff help to create their own documentation because people are smart enough to know what's acceptable and what isn't.

On the hand of a group that specifically would require certain things from staff members, your own environmental effects (basically that's all I see the staff would be needed for in a player built clan as opposed to family clans) such as attacking allanak with slaves, tearing appart buildings, burning houses; Then I see it as imperative that an immortal work with the group.

I for one don't like it when people don't respond to my emails, which seams to be one of the things that some of these policies have done. (I'm guessing staff members have such a hard time as it is answering mail that they skip over anything about item makes, custom purchasing, etc. And I would too.)

Really however, I think it would be better if clans didn't even have assigned imms. If someone needed to co-ordinate a RPT for their house, they could easily send to the MUD account with a subject like: "Such and such house RPT Imm needed" This would especially be better since the new rules have taken place meaning clan imms aren't required to put in specific special order stuff.

[Sanvean]

I'm confused because on the one hand you say "I think it would be better if clans didn't even have assigned imms" but also "On the hand of a group that specifically would require certain things from staff members...I see it as imperative that an immortal work with the group."

There may be some confusion about what a clan immortal does.  On the list, which may vary from clan to clan, are:

Clan maintenance, which includes but is not limited to: creating new objects, NPCs and rooms as needed; keeping up on bugs and typos for existing objects, NPCs, and rooms; replacing NPCs and objects lost due to crashes.
Running RPTs and/or assisting with player-driven RPTs
Watching over players to help them play within the clan guidelines
Maintaining the clan forum on the GDB
Posting on the IDB with clan updates so other staff know what's going on with the clan
Helping with reimbursements or special requests from their clan players
Keeping up with status reports from their clan players and answering questions as needed.
Creating and maintaining clan documentation.
Monitoring new code and scripts and seeing where they can be used for their clan.
Etc.

All coded clans need at least a few items from this list, generally.  Shifting the responsibility to the mud account to arrange RPTs, beyond putting all of the work on the shoulders of whoever is currently answering the mud mail, adds another layer of communication and slows things down even further.

If your emails are consistently not being answered, then you may want to check your mailer, because sometimes the problem turns out not to be on our side of things.  Speaking as the person answering email over the last month (Nessalin is currently handling it), I'm not aware of any pending requests from you, and I don't see any posted on the request board.  If you're referring to a specific clan immortal, you're welcome to drop a nudge mail to the mud account and we'll take a look at getting you an answer.  This is one of the reasons why we ask that people cc mud when mailing their clan immortal(s).  It helps to state what your desired outcome is early in the email, as well as being as clear and concise as possible.  If you are one of the people who emails multiple times in one day, your emails may be seen as lower prioirty than some others; in such cases consolidating emails may help.

When I asked this question of the immortals, many of them felt that eliminating special orders was a huge relief (it also solves the past problem of PC merchants being harassed by customers who felt their orders weren't being filled quickly enough).  A number felt that it allowed them to focus on their clans - one person said "I felt more able to just relax and have fun with players. Not that I couldn't before - but I didn't have that sense of impending doom from a long list of to-dos during this period. "

At the same time, people didn't take advantage of the current projects list as much as we'd hoped - and suggestions on how to make that process work better are quite welcome.  Right now we're talking on the immortal board about what to keep, what to change, and what to scrap, so this is your chance to have some input into these decisions, which is one reason why I'd like genuine, thought-out feedback.

Here are some of my own thoughts on it:

I'd like to keep the no special orders policy. It seems to me that these had gotten out of hand and were a) eating up a lot of merchant clan immortal time and b) leading to problems with players pressuring PC merchants about their order status. If we allow mastercrafters to create/submit items along the same guidelines, then it shifts responsibility to them and also makes becoming a mastercrafter meaningful, giving people something to strive for.

New clans. I'd still like to see people be pretty conservative about opening new clans or reopening defunct ones, because it seems that we end up diluting the player base every time we add one, even if it's the niftiest, keenest one ever. I'm proposing that if someone wants to start a clan, or to adopt a player-started one and give it immortal support, such as having it coded, they must post a proposal on the IDB outlining what gaps it fills, what benefits it brings to the game, and pointing to fleshed out documentation.   The information in http://www.armageddon.org/ic/clans/ still applies as far as player-started clans go.

[Trenidor]

Sorry that was just my uneducated opinion... I also didn't really state it the way I ment, Never mind.

Lemme just wrap up my opinion now and get out of the way of everyone:

I say stay on 1, though I do like to see more representations of different VNPCS through various world things, and occasionally some people might notice there's a need somewhere and submit a few things, it's better to have organization instead of flooding the staff with chaos.

I say stay on 2, I haven't seen a billion items out there, why should someone be so special as to have the only metalic bong, really...what purpose is it other than to say "I can smoke my spice more fancy then thou."

Stay on 3. Why are people that don't even know about the millions of items out there submitting new ones anyway? They could even be sending duplicates!

Stay on 4 everyones pretty equal I guess.

No on 5 without further explanation. I don't know really what I want here, but it's probably best to have the option, even if it isn't likely going to happen. My suggestion is make the rules more strict as far as what's required to start your own clan, more independence, more benifits to the game world, stuff like that.

And on 6:
I haven't really heard enough about this one's benifits, which really sways the way I think of it....

If it's helping staff work on other things, (the whole silt boats kind of thing) that many people wish to see, and that are benificial, then I say Keep it. Otherwise I don't see any point in allowing lord fancypants having ten different hair styles in one year.

[creeper386]

Just to clear some things up with myself, by no more opening of closed clans or new coded clans. You saying no support at all code wise for new PC run clans. Or just no overview imm and no extra line in their stats saying thier rank and clan name?

Say if they worked on building their own place, they couldn't have the coded 'place' built? Or if they gained ownership of some place and wanted to make editions to it? Maybe buying land, finding an abandoned dwelling outside the city someplace or just want to fortify a cave they couldn't get the coded benefits of it?

If that's the case I'm really against it. Also with the submission of items. What if they just wanted basic uniforms. Something basically anyone could do, nothing spectacular, but they'd have to wait around untill one of their own became a master crafter just to get worn, sandcloth bandanas with a tree symbol ... It'd be rather ridiculous.

I'd say sometimes unique items are needed. And sometimes unique means ... Well unique. That there might be something similar but there isn't any way something else in the data base can replace it.

I don't know, I wouldn't want to see people efforts go to waste. But if it's just the fact they won't see "So and so belonds in Clan Blah" in their stats and won't have the benefits of an NPC openeing a gate for them, and won't have a 'clan' bank account(Although that should be possible anyways!) That's not bad.

[skeetdaddle]

Sanvean said:

1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

1) I veiw this policy as cutting away the fat & the juicy tender meat. It probably makes life easier as an Imm, but also cuts any truly wonderful random ideas. Part of what makes Arm so cool to play is the wonderful ideas that have helped evolve it into what it is. What's needed is a solution that cuts the bad/repetitive random ideas, not all random ideas. I agree with Agent_137 on this one. Projects should have first priority, but people should still be allowed to submit stuff. Is it really that time-consuming to quickly scan an idea and immediately delete it if it sucks/already exits? (Please - I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know.) Perhaps what is needed is a format for presenting an idea, so it can be more easily scanned by an Imm and either trashed or put in the "implement" pile. My other thought is that maybe a different mind-set should be taken by whoever's reveiwing an idea. If the only difference between pink silk dress A and pink silk dress B is that B has a low neckline, perhaps instead of debating for long hours over how dress B might affect the game, the idea should just be tossed. What I'm saying, I guess, is that only if an item/NPC/echo/desc or its effects are VASTLY different or unique should it not be immediately deleted.

Sanvean said:

2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.

2) Quite often, being a merchant involves also being/knowing/employing a "master crafter," right? So how come in policy #3 a PC "master crafter" can make that fancy bow for you that shoots 5 arrows at once, but a coded NPC merchant can't? This makes no sense to me. If the problem is that there are too many items being requested that already exist or something very similar already exists, then why couldn't the request be met with an IC response like "Try so-and-so. They sell that kind of crap," which would direct the requester to such an item. I'm not entirely sure how these requests work, (having never made one), so if my example is bad, and that couldn't really happen ICly, could the requester be sent an email telling them to have their char act accordingly as if they had been told this ICly? Again, as in #1, I think preventing special requests hurts the evolution of the game in the end. Have there not been items that have been requested so many times that they were eventually added to a shop-keepers inventory, (thereby evolving the game)? Have PC's not been killed for some special item they own? And just because an item is requested by someone, that doesn't mean that they can't be shot down without explanation, right? You guys are the Imms! You're the GODS of this game! God doesn't need a reason to say no!

-- OOOOO! 'Nother idea to add to this one! If this policy is to be implemented permanently, why not have NPC merchants actively seek out PC "master crafters" to hire or at least have some sort of economic relationship with, so that if PC1 wants cool-looking brazierre item, they can request it and then NPC merchant can say either "I'll have so-and-so PC make ya' one," (thereby giving so-and-so PC something to do and a chance to make a few 'sid) or "Go talk to so-and-so PC. They make that kind of crap." This would encourage trade amongst PC's, I think.

Sanvean said:

3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

3) I think this is a nifty idea. Why not 2 or 3 items, though? And what if they get really, really good at that one item? Maybe then they can make a new, niftier item? Or maybe then they can make a few different types of nifty items? It's a good idea to build on.

Sanvean said:

4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

4) Okay. Sounds good. I think I touched on this a bit in #1.

Sanvean said:

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

5) This is actually two seperate policies, in a way, and I think each should be dealt with differently.
No new clans: I don't think the foot should be put all the way down on this one, just most of the way. It's mostly a good idea, but I would hate to see it truly put into practice. I think new clans should be allowed, but it should be near impossible to get one. Perhaps what is needed are guidelines for submitting a new clan where certain things must be obtained/proven before even submitting the request. The first thing that comes to mind is longevity. I think that generally a clan shouldn't even be considered unless it can prove a potent existence in the Zalanthan world for 'x' many in game years. Other things like PC clan size, economic influence, societal niche, place of operations, etc, might be considered as a grounds for submission.
Re-opening clans: I think that clans that no one plays in or has heard of for years should be erased. Clans that PCs periodically show an interest in should not, and should be re-opened when that interest peaks. Why not? And why not temporarily close down other clans if interest wanes? The trick, I think, is to keep it balanced. Open one and close down another. That way PCs don't end up too spread out.  

Sanvean said:

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

6) I think this is a damaging policy. I think it can be annoying, sure, to have some PC requesting desc changes all the time for their character, but those changes can be essential to game play. Many, many, many, many, many judgements are made in Zalanthas based on how a PC looks. Without any way of making yourself codewise unrecognizeable with a mask or other item, this is sometimes THE ONLY WAY to disguise your char. Even if your character isn't trying to hide their identity, these desc changes can keep judgements made based on your PC's appearance approriate. Ex: The half-elf who clips off the tips of his ears to look human and get a job. The thief with the long hair and goatee who shaves his head and face to be unrecognizable. The warrior who breaks a leg which never heals right and limps for the rest of his life, (wouldn't you think it strange to see a perfectly healthy warrior whom you knew had NOT had any sort of recent injury limping heavily with absolutely no sign of even a twisted ankle in his desc?) This list goes on and on. Again - it may be annoying to do, but allowing desc changes is absolutely necessary in my opinion and should niether be limited or cut.

[Xamminy]

1 - No problem.
2 - No problem.
3 - No problem.
4 - No problem.
5 - No problem.
6 - My only issue with this is when there is a long-lived character.  With the 'change locdesc' capability, now, scars should not be an issue.  However, other things that people may do to change their appearance over the course of time could quite realistically occur often.  Now, I'm not advocating anyone changing their description on a weekly basis, but there are characters that have been around for over 3 years of real time, which even after the time fix went in, is quite a long time IG.  (Roughly 25.5 IG years.)  Over that time, lots can happen.  I would advocate something more like every 'X' amount of years in game or 'Y' amount of months RL for an unnecessary character description change.  I would suggest a bare minimum of three months real time, but nothing more than 6 months real time, as that is a long time for some characters to live.  To differentiate, a necessary description change would be because of something that happened as a result of IG events, say being maimed in some fashion, by events outside of the character in question's control.  For an unnecessary description change, using these guidelines, an appropriate clan IMM would need to approve the request.  The request should include detailed reasons as to why the change should occur, as well as the portion portion of the description affected and what the change to that portion would be.  Also, a copy of what the description will be after the change so that the IMM doing the description update need only copy/paste when making the change.  This would minimize time needed to review these requests as well as simplify the process of making the change.

[Forest Junkie]

I don't really care about any of the rules. None, with the exception of #5, have truly affected my time here on ArmageddonMUD.

I personally think it is a detriment to the game, and acts as a way to discourage hard working players from creating something new that has the potential to become coded. All the work I've put into certain things now feel like an incredible waste of time. When statements like this are made, it makes me feel that "my thoughts or ideas are not good enough".
That's what I would consider a "shit on my parade" situation.

Examples of excellent player-run clans which became coded with support through staff:[/i][/b]

1) Durg and the Bloodriders (Incredible)

2) Thrain Ironsword (Insanely uber)

3) Blackmoon (I think?) (Straight-up kickassness)

4) Soh Lanah Kah (Yuuzhan Vongish, which is a good thing)

5) Sun Runners (great culture/customs/roleplay)

Just a few I thought I'd mention. If these policies were in effect 3-4 years ago, would those tribes/clans have been in game? Would these tribes/clans have had the impact on the game that they did without the advantage of the code?

[Trenidor]

I thought I'd bring this up now before people neglect to think about it:

The Known world is currently in the Feudal ages...many people are going to try and band together to benifit the whole, it's unstoppable untill you get to imperialism at which point any further attempts to band with one another into new groups turned out exactly that: Futile. In the mean time however, Zalanthans will continue to group up.


Derail---
Maybe it's just that people need to be educated more that they can't just send emails to the mud that they're making up a clan. I think it's been long enough that really no one should be making family clans anymore (the kind that have something like this in their documentation: Such and such clan has been around for a long time) Just gather a few friends to join your group as a family members, and start out fresh by joining the same tribal group, splitting off and then living a while before stating that you're a tribe. Just a thought...
---

[Grey Area]

Since the new policy went into effect, I only noticed one change: I saw a considerable increase in staff interaction. Randomly animated NPCs, account notes from watching immortals, faster email responses, etc. None of the new clan/object/description limitations affected me in the slightest, but even if they had I'd cheerfully swap the lot for the continued staff 'presence.' Personally, I think it rules.

[Anonymous]

Since the new policy went into effect, I only noticed one change: I saw a considerable increase in staff interaction. Randomly animated NPCs, account notes from watching immortals, faster email responses, etc. None of the new clan/object/description limitations affected me in the slightest, but even if they had I'd cheerfully swap the lot for the continued staff 'presence.' Personally, I think it rules.

What he said.
I am grateful for scenes I was involved in, as well for scenes I will never know about. I was always hoping to see someone, who has heard of someone being witness of Sun King strolling down the street to hear thoughts of common. It's like living full life now, feeling the world moving around your character. It helps to fight delusion "those NPC Templars are only useful to walk your gortok to" or "nothing interesting will happen because there is no other PC" doom. If increase in immteraction was result of changes then it's more than enough to justify them, but I'd like to address some items in particular.

1. I understand it as attempt to concentrate on ongoing projects only, to make them done and then move on to others. I vote for it, because I'd rather have ten things done than have thousands existing only as floating ideas.

2-4. IMO, requesting special items is wasting time unless it's vital, and I am happy about most commentators sharing the same point of view. Four hours of somebody's work in exchange for spice pipe, which nobody will recognize as "special" unless you eat some brains? They are called Storytellers for a reason; they are not Item Crafting Monkeys.
Somehow addressing skeetdaddle's post about needs to represent (V)NPC master crafters: it could be reasonable to grant "one-item-per-month" privilege to highest-ranking PC merchant/agent for GMH location. Though I see no such need, assuming (V)NPC-crafted items go to (V)NPC customers.

5. Addressing Forest Junkie's post above about PC-made clans being vital for history of Zalanthas: I find it kind of unrealistic. ICly I don't see how and why Great Houses and powerful tribes have become just spectators for the show. OOCly I understand it as outcome of coded clans not being flexible enough or interesting to play, but I don't see PC-run clans as ultimate cure for it, if cure at all.
Prior to making my first character, I have picked few clans I'd really like to play in future. Some of them are closed now and it's pity. But, seeing reasoning behind that rule, I am ready to give up my childish dreams.

6. Same reasoning as for special items. Change in description must be done to reflect drastic changes in appearance. You've lost an arm? Your unkempt Runner has survived numerous missions and is now less unkempt Leutenant? Go for description change. But I don't see purpose to show scratches you've got while being Noble Guard for a couple of years.

Yes, I am posting as kank just because I am able to.

[Seeker]

Seeker's feedback:

#1:  No submissions of any type from players unless they fall under the Current Projects listed, with the sole exception of Master Crafters under item #3.

This one clearly changes the nature of the player's position in the game.  It shifts players from being innovators and co-creators, and, to me, implies that none of our ideas or concepts is sufficiently worthy of attention.

There is the "idea" command, of course, but I used to enjoy writing up crafting recipes for non-craftable items, and got a kick out of finding little projects that I thought would enhance the RP environment.  This policy ends that for players.

An alternative solution:

Sponsoring:
If a player has a priceless, groovy idea, let him submit it.  If a player is eager to take on a new project not listed on the current projects, let him submit it.  If the IMMs agree it is worth dealing with, have a IMM sponsor take it under their wing, and add it to the Projects List.  If not, then not.  At least the door is not entirely closed to worthy or interesting ideas that might not have occured to the staff.  It allows an overacheiver who is eager to contribute at least the opportunity to be considered.

#2  No more special orders through merchants.

Really, this is not an issue.  With the use of the MasterCraftmen's talent, this just drives more PC to PC interaction.  Like it.  Let's merchant PCs come more into their own.  It was frustrating to have a Warrior guild PC in a merchant role with a Merchant House able to whip out custom items every bit as easily as a Merchant guild PC.  LET the Houses hire PC crafters.  MAKE them a sought after commodity.

#3 Master Crafters

Awesome in every detail.

#4 Guidelines for submissions

We all want the very best in the game.  Excellent.  Everyone is for higher standards, even if it means that my own stuff is just not good enough.  Yet.  Gimme a bar... I'll work to surpass it.

#5 No new clans opened or re-opened unilaterally.

I would really prefer it not be impossible.  I just don't like the feeling of the absolute no.  No matter how hard you struggle, no matter how cool the concept, no matter how vital the place in the game, no matter how successful or how persistent, or how entertaining - no.  Ick.  

I don't want the IMMs to be deluged with a bunch of demanding, persistant e-mails begging evaluation, re-evalutions and re-re-evaluation of their concept, though, either.  

Possible alternative
Maybe a "don't call us, we'll call you," policy.  You have a concept, submit the idea once, and start playing it out.  If and when a couple of sponsoring IMMs find it interesting, it -might- be possible.

#6 Limited description changes over the life of a character

Enough's been said on this one already.  As a general rule, I think it is better RL time-based, and during the course of play, I think exceptions can be required to accomodate IG circumstances.

Thanks for the opportunity to be heard.

Seeker

[Delirium]

<slips Seeker $10 under the table>

My feelings on the matters, as well. Nice post.

[flurry]

Overall, I haven't felt directly affected by the policy changes.

At times it has seemed like Immortals have more time for IC interaction and for coding projects.  Of course, I'm sure the Imms have a better feel for if this is true or not.  Haven't seen any change one way or the other with email interaction.   (This wasn't something I felt was lacking as it was anyway.)

I'm not one to submit objects or NPCs often at all, so it wouldn't really be fair to say that I felt inhibited from contributing by the policy.   There were a couple ideas bouncing around in my head that I kind of pushed aside after the policy came down, but nothing especially wonderful.   On the flip side, I did feel inspired by one or two of the Current Projects, but I haven't made the time to write up the ideas yet.

As for the desc change limit - I agree with those who have said the limit might be better tied to RL time passed or days played, maybe with some  ultimate cap.  (e.g. 2 desc changes per character per RL year, with an absolute max of 4).   I think there -is- something to be said for long term continuity of character sdescs, for instance, but aging alone sometimes calls for description changes.  This is why I think the current limit might not always work well for some of the longer lived characters.  

That said, I have not had any desire or need to request a description change since the policy was put in place.

[Sanvean]

I wanted to provide some feedback on one point, which was the writing up items.  In no way was it meant to say "we don't want you writing up stuff" - it was intended more as an sharing of information so we could encourage collaboration, and ask people to work with us on specific projects  -- giving people the ability to actually become co-creators.  This was intended to address several problems, including:

1)  People writing unnecessary items because they don't know something very similar exists in the database.  It seems unfair to have people waste time like this, and it ends up with people feeling unappreciated when we don't use them.

2) People writing items only for their own use.  I.e. someone writing up an outfit for their PC tribe and then asking that we load up sets of them for each of their players.  This strays into the borders of a) unfairness to other players and b) irritation on the parts of the staff.

3) People writing unsuitable items and then getting upset because they spent time on them and then they never got used.  This ranges from the bone handled ukelele to the obsidian knife with the desc: "This is a knife made out of obsidian."

Mainly we hoped, actually, to harness the great amounts of creativity and writing skill we often seem displayed and try to direct them to what we've seen as gaps in the game, as well as addressing frustrations by players who felt that they were wasting their time.  I'd still like to do this - the things outlined in the current projects blogs are actual gaps and working on those pretty much guarantees your item/NPC/whatever will go in if it passes muster.

At the same time, I would like to see mastercrafters made more meaningful, and having them be the only people who can produce special orders seems like one of the best ways to do this.  

If something genuinely doesn't exist in the game, and would be a great addition, I'm glad to see it in.  But 99% of special orders haven't fallen in that category.

[da mitey warrior]

I think the changes have been fine.

1) Submission Blog.  Didn't seem to work it seems, if what I've heard of the blog is right.  Partly this is because the requests there didn't seem very appealing.  Posting on the staff announcement thread seems to be more effective.

2) No special items still seems great.  Special items were always a waste of time.  An hour of staff time to make a diamond-studded pocket knife instead of using 1 min of staff time to load a gem-encrusted ivory dagger is still a bad trade.  Even better now that PC merchants don't have to endure getting hounded by every noble/templar in the game over their special item orders.

3) The Mastercrafter system seems good, it'd be interesting to know how many people have submitted items.  I haven't noticed any mastercrafters.

4) I haven't seen any extra guidelines posted.  Maybe I'm blind and missed it.  

5) Having clans never open or reopen is still, I think, too restrictive.  Clans should change over time as IC situations change.  And I think never having any changes in what clans are open will eventually lead to some stagnation.   Plus everyone wants to be the next Thrain Ironsword, it's nice to know that it is still possible, even if the bar is very high.

6) I never noticed many people making alot of desc changes, and I don't think I've noticed any since the change came in.  Change loc seems like a good thing.  There should be another one for tuluki caste tattooes, though, since using up one of your 2 chances to get your house tattoo seems like a waste.

[Xamminy]

I'm fairly certain that the '2 desc change' limitation is for description changes that involve staff intervention.  'change locdesc' can be done at any time and I am fairly certain does not count to the limit of two.

[Maybe42or54]

Awesome Sanvean. Awesome.

It all makes sense now. I'll write up something.

[Zharal]

The only real problem I've seen is the creation of new items.  I myself am a good tailor in game, I can make a nice dress with skilled designs, blah blah blah, yet if I want to write up to make a particular belt for someone Im denied to do so because Im not a master crafter, I personally feel this is a bit lame.  I mean a belt, come on.  I think those who have a crafting field should be able to write up Items that are within there crafting limits.  But it should be limited to only a few items in a set amount of time.  Possibly giving master crafters more items in a shorter period of time.

I personaly feel that the abuse of others have made it hard on the rest of the player base.  Example.. The mask.  I myself in some many years have never owned one, and dont much care if I do, but folks created such a stink over the item that we no longer have it in game.  Thanks alot guys.
I also feel this is why I cant write up an item, folks have created such a problem with it that now I am forced to be a merchant or go to a merchant house to aquire things that I know I can make in game.

But that is just my thoughts.

[Bestatte]

I kinda side with inkhore on the crafting thing. It doesn't affect me at all right now..and hasn't for awhile.

But look at what NON-master crafters can do..and then at what they're being told they're not allowed to do.

I mean - a clothworker who is -not- a master crafter can make something like an elegant beaded silk gown or some such (I don't know the exact sdesc and it's IC info so I wouldn't post it anyway)...

But they can't submit a finely stitched yellow linen sash with braided green tassles? And yet - the following saturday, there's the Kadius shop, loaded up with brand spanking newly created objects, and there's something resembling the item you wanted to make - the item you KNOW your character should be able to make, because afterall, you can make an elegant beaded silk gown...

It's like a slap in the face when that happens. Some virtual Kadian crafter can make stuff you can't, even though you can make things even more intricate than that item already.

Jewelry is another of those things - bearing in mind of course that my situation was a little different, and putting that difference aside for now...

My jeweler was able to make some pretty intricate stuff. Stuff that appeared on my "you can make" list that I hadn't submitted, that were already in existence or submitted by someone else. And yet, when I went to the Kadian shop one day after game reset, I found the shop loaded up with an entire list worth of stuff that it never had before. And among that list existed things that my character would've found EASY to replicate, and in some cases designs that would have been appopriate for my character to replicate.

Again, my situation was a little different - and I'm not gonna get into it here. But any OTHER jeweler at the time, who was capable of the stuff I was capable of, who didn't have certain restrictions that mine did..if I was one of THOSE jewelers, I'd have been bitching up a storm, to be told I can't submit stuff like that just because I'm not a "master" crafter. You don't need to be a master crafter to produce simple things - bone rings with wavy lines in them, obsidian anklets with amber stuck in a niche in the surface..

If you're already doing more intricate stuff than that, then you should certainly be capable of creating (and submitting for creation) less-intricate things, and not have to find out a month later that Kadius has just come out with a new line of stuff that includes some of the ideas that you were told you aren't allowed to create.

[Anonymous]

Maxed out crafter sub guilds should be allowed one special item per every three a merchant crafter who is a master is allowed.

[Bestatte]

I'd have no problem with AnonKank's idea, though I would expect the submitted item to be in line with the quality/intricacy that the sub crafter is already capable of creating.

So that sub-crafter might never be capable of creating anything *really amazing*, but he's be able to submit something "commonly awesome," with the staff determining what that happens to mean, based on the stuff that crafter is already churning out.

[Maybe42or54]

How about, keep the numbers the same with this limitation.

When you submit an item, a member of the staff has to believe that it is below your current crafting skills, to craft.

[Trenidor]

How about, keep the numbers the same with this limitation.

When you submit an item, a member of the staff has to believe that it is below your current crafting skills, to craft.

Although I agree entirely with what you guys are saying...I think the reson this is is beacuse people like that keep sending in things and causing the staff to read them...go over them...check the character's skill level, then put it in the cleared items list, then create a blank object, assign values, add the short desc and main desc. Then add it to the skill group. And then, on the occation that it's an ordered item, put it in the game.

Seams like too much work. And I'd rather they focus on npc wagons and silt runners.

[Bestatte]

Although I agree entirely with what you guys are saying...I think the reson this is is beacuse people like that keep sending in things and causing the staff to read them...go over them...check the character's skill level, then put it in the cleared items list, then create a blank object, assign values, add the short desc and main desc. Then add it to the skill group. And then, on the occation that it's an ordered item, put it in the game.

Seams like too much work. And I'd rather they focus on npc wagons and silt runners.

It isn't quite as difficult as that - since the submission template already requires you to write the sdec and main desc, and assuming your run a spell check and have some vague idea of what the heck you're doing, it would be mostly a cut/paste project for the imm once the blank item exists. And that blank item takes what - half a second's worth of typing in a command to create? One would think that the staff members already have a scripting device that lets them type another command to set values on "commonly requested" items, so even that effort would be (or should be) minimal. Adding it to the skill group is part of setting the values, with the only exception I can think of being the "make" flag, and removing the value for "who can make this thing" if it's a unique item.

As with all projects the players are invited to work on, the staff has to go through each thing anyway to make sure stuff is spelled right, paragraphs are formatted and written correctly, grammar is accurate, etc. etc. etc.

So for every item on that projects list that isn't being worked on, there could be *maybe* that many people attempting to submit stuff that isn't on the projects list, if that. It's no more work than they feel they can expect to do anyway, if suddenly a slew of people started submitting objects on that projects list all at the same time.

I highly doubt there are all that many crafter subguild PCs who are maxed out on their crafting skill level, that would cause a significant problem for staff if they were limited to how many items they were allowed to submit in a given timeframe.

[Xamminy]

When creating, you still have to type all the commands necessary to put the correct information in the correct area for the new object/NPC/room.  It's not quite as easy as you think, Bestatte.  Second, a second staff member has to go over the item/NPC/room.  Assume that you will take up at least 20 minutes of staff time per object, 30 per room, 40 per NPC.  Granted, some staff will turn stuff out a lot faster, some won't turn things out even this fast.  Now, that's just making what you're asking for.  That doesn't count going through the database to make sure there isn't something similar already in the game.  You want a frilly, crimson tunic...well, that floofy, red shirt will fit...but it shares no keywords, so is hard to find.  It takes time to make sure nothing already fills a niche you're looking for.  This is a lot of wasted time for things that aren't necessary.

If you really must contribute, there are things that need contributing.  That's what the current projects page is for.

[bloodfromstone]

Though a lot of people have already mentioned it, my major beef is with the description limitations. I understand we don't want people getting new mdescs for every little thing, but I certainly wouldn't want to feel limited that I couldn't make a physical change that would be IC due to OOC circumstances.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

*clears throat for attention*

Just a quick note, for anyone noticing this thread.. It's over a year old and has been resurrected by a spam-whore-bot.  :roll: There probably isn't much use getting riled up over anything anyone said in here.

*steps away from the mic* :wink:

[bloodfromstone]

Yeah, I realized that about a minute after I posted in it.  :oops:

[Hot_Dancer]

I think a direct policy vs opening new clans is mostly not needed, though I have to say I like seeing the lesser number of loner elves with vnpc tribe background as to promote more roleplay between actually represented tribes.

Considering the difficulty of starting a player run clan though, it just seems redundant. There's so many requirements to getting your clan approved in documentation, the niche it fills, etc that it just doesn't  seem to happen often enough to harm playerbase concentration. We all know the group will die out as soon as the original leader dies anyways..

Hot_Dancer