How to look at a whore. Good, evil or in the middle.

[sarahjc]

So, some say it's a respectable job, some say no. I know we all have these conversations about how sexuality isn't an issue on Zalanthas, but that's not what this is about. This is strictly about how they people getting paid for sexual acts should be perceived.  

How do you feel a whore, the worlds oldest profession should be played out?

My opinion is that it should have some derogator meaning. And the reason is not for sexually promiscuously, but that:

1. Their only worth is a for lack of a better terms would be a useful plug or socket.  And yes, there are higher class versions on these things, and they do get paid more. But I am talking your base born, filthy uneducated whores which would be more plentiful and give the over all profession a bad name.  

2. The spread of disease. It's been a tag forever that whores are filthy disease spreaders.  And though you could argue that since everyone is somewhat promiscuous and dirty,  fact of the matter is, that nobody is seeing more action than a Hooker. It's their job.

3. Easy money, that is unless you aren't a spice head or particularly unattractive and can't get a good coin for your work.  The fact that the average guy has to break his back and risk his neck hunting every day, when some whore could just have to lay on his, I would think could create some animosity


But I would like to hear what other people's thoughts on this are.  Should the term whore be a derogatory term? I think yes.  What do you think?

[Agent_137]

Well, I see two factors.

one, the class of the job itself.

two, the quality of the job done.

So a Merchant might be a little higher class than a merc. But a Well known professional merc might be held in higher esteem than the average merchant.

So it is with whores.

A Templar's concubine is going to command respect over your average citizen. But a whore that stands on a corner in the commoner's quarter is going to be less respected then, say, a Byn Trooper. But probably more than a runner, if she's really good at what she does.


The thing about this is there's a huge numbers of factors and feelings. This is not something that can ever be cut and dried, because comparisons between jobs are never cut and dried. Look at it in real life. Who's got more respect? A janitor, or a teacher?
Right, easy question.
Now, who's got more respect? A soldier or a teacher?
A janitor or a construction worker?
A garbage man or a mcdonalds burger maker?

etc. etc.


Whorin' aint the best job, but it's still a damn job, and it's still fills a huge need. I think a common whore is about janitor level of respect.

And my dad always said, "Every job is respectable, it fills a need, and some one has to do it."

of course, he also said, "A whore can rationalize away being a whore, but she's still a whore!"

[wizturbo]

Lower class whores would probably be ranked as very low status in the social pyramid.  They have no useful talents.  They are generally unattractive, poor,  and they are most likely diseased.  Think of it this way, if your all stranded on some desert isle who would you vote off first?  The cheap whore.

Upper class whores however, the "Courtesan", are a completely different story.  They serve a populace that is MUCH more picky than your average commoner.  They serve wealthy merchants, and perhaps nobles and templars, though I would think the later would be a bit more hush hush.  These are not you common whores.  They are generally fairly well educated, so they can converse in a meaningful way with their clients who enjoy their company just as much for non-sexual purposes as they do for sexual ones.  They are typically extremely attractive, and well dressed, which means they are not poor.  Also, the successful courtesan must be unusually cunning, because in their profession fucking up can often mean very bad things.  Piss off a Merchant family member, or even worse a Noble or Templar, and life can get ugly.  These 'whores' would actually be fairly highly ranked within the social pyramid, though on a case to case basis depending on who's favor they've earned over their careers.  Some could rank as high as bastard nobility, where some could rank just above your common man.

[Red Ranger]

I feel that this question could be answered to the satisfaction of most people on either "side" if we distinguish between whores; we can look down on, tolerate, and respect whores all at the same time.  

At one end of the spectrum are the toothless 'Rinthis that smell like a gutter, and at the other end are the perfumed and exclusive whores to the nobility, the ones that are pampered and may even have some power and influence.  What I suggest is that new terms be coined for the various levels in the Prostitute Continuum.  If Eskimos have 100 words for snow, shouldn't Zalanthans have 100 words for whore?  For instance, the pox-ridden 'Rinthi whores that will do their thing for a sip of brackish water could be called "Ratlies," while the working class whores could be called "Geemsas," and the upper class "courtesans" could be called "Chalyas."  In this example, the word "ratli" would be an insult, but the word "chalya" would be something to fear or to aspire to.

Something to consider (or not).

The Red Ranger

[sarahjc]

Well, I will put it this way. Nobody is going to be insulted to be called a courtesan. I mean what are you implying there? That I am well taken care of?  Dress nicely? Socialize with the upper crust? Sleep with people that you have to lick the boots of? It would just be silly.

However I think it would be a fair case to say that the term whore, would in fact be an insult   For that implies that I am dirty, poor, stupid, physically unattractive and useless except for the value between my legs.  
Where does this come from? Someone said that a woman (or man) being called whore in Zalanthas would not be considered an insult. I say, it would very much be one. Just not for our earthly old fashioned reasons.  Not for the sake of a person being "loose"  or "slutty" or "easy"

I could easily see someone uttering the sentence, "Well, he/she may be a courtesan now,  but I remember he/she was nothing more than a filthy whore offering herself/himself up for 5 sid a shot."


Or, someone saying, " Well, he may be a Sergeant now, but he's got the muscle and brains of whore. Perhaps that's how he got the job."

Basically I would see it a perfectly fitting insult male or female to show weakness, lack of drive, slow wit..  

In a freely sexual society, those that would sell themselves for money, perhaps have no other values to offer.

I like your idea Red Ranger.. You're on the same path I am.

[EvilRoeSlade]

1. Their only worth is a for lack of a better terms would be a useful plug or socket.  And yes, there are higher class versions on these things, and they do get paid more. But I am talking your base born, filthy uneducated whores which would be more plentiful and give the over all profession a bad name.

This is a real-life prejudice.  On Zalanthas pretty everyone is unskilled, untrained, or both, not just whores.

2. The spread of disease. It's been a tag forever that whores are filthy disease spreaders.  And though you could argue that since everyone is somewhat promiscuous and dirty,  fact of the matter is, that nobody is seeing more action than a Hooker. It's their job.

You're still using RL ideas.  Considering the technology and level of education throughout Zalanthas, it's exceedingly unlikely that people even know how diseases are transmitted.  An average commoner would be far more likely to blame disease on a magicker than a prostitute.

3. Easy money, that is unless you aren't a spice head or particularly unattractive and can't get a good coin for your work.  The fact that the average guy has to break his back and risk his neck hunting every day, when some whore could just have to lay on his, I would think could create some animosity

The average guy doesn't break his back hunting, he breaks his back doing manual labor that doesn't cause him to leave the city.  Very few people have risky occupations, and prostitutes are no different in that respect, except that their occupation is somewhat more risky, not less.

Furthermore, since prostitutes are as much slaves to their markets as any other merchant, they can only make as much as their clients can afford to pay.  So unless they're a nobles concubine, then they get money neither easily or in great quantities.

What do you think?

No.  Just because a few baseless arguements can allow someone to argue that Zalanthas is like Earth in one respect or another, doesn't make it so.

[wizturbo]

I agree with you here Sarah.  In most cases whore would be derogatory.  It wouldn't be the worst insult in the world, but it would definitely be a jab at someone's personal value.

There might be some cultures however who wouldn't see this as an insult at all.  Some tribal societies would just stare at you blankly, confused, and if they found out you were trying to be insulting, would be puzzled as to why being a whore is a bad thing.  A 'rinthi might also see this as a poor insult, as they might view whoring yourself out as a great profession, real white collar work amongst the alleys.  But for the average commoner culture, yes, whore would be an insult in my opinion.

[sarahjc]

1. Their only worth is a for lack of a better terms would be a useful plug or socket.  And yes, there are higher class versions on these things, and they do get paid more. But I am talking your base born, filthy uneducated whores which would be more plentiful and give the over all profession a bad name.

This is a real-life prejudice.  On Zalanthas pretty everyone is unskilled, untrained, or both, not just whores.

Not quite, real life prejudice is that a whore is a non-virtuous woman. The definition of a whore is a woman that would sell herself for money. These are two different things. And no, not everyone is unskilled. Most people have some skill. Be that working in a merchant house, or as a guard or servant, slave, beggar, shoe shiner, hunter, scavenger.. burglar, bard.. you get the point... . Or even as an upscale prostitute or not upscale one. If you don't work, you can't eat...

2. The spread of disease. It's been a tag forever that whores are filthy disease spreaders.  And though you could argue that since everyone is somewhat promiscuous and dirty,  fact of the matter is, that nobody is seeing more action than a Hooker. It's their job.

You're still using RL ideas.  Considering the technology and level of education throughout Zalanthas, it's exceedingly unlikely that people even know how diseases are transmitted.  An average commoner would be far more likely to blame disease on a magicker than a prostitute.

Call me crazy, but I don't think it takes rocket science to assume that the warts on your privates or that burning sensation when you pee is cause by intercourse..  I mean,  I'm not talking HIV here.. just the common obvious ones.

3. Easy money, that is unless you aren't a spice head or particularly unattractive and can't get a good coin for your work.  The fact that the average guy has to break his back and risk his neck hunting every day, when some whore could just have to lay on his, I would think could create some animosity

The average guy doesn't break his back hunting, he breaks his back doing manual labor that doesn't cause him to leave the city.  Very few people have risky occupations, and prostitutes are no different in that respect, except that their occupation is somewhat more risky, not less.

I would say that shoveling shit off the streets, building the city walls, patrolling the city, hammering wood or stone, skinning hides.. Again, I could go on..  These are all hard jobs, maybe not risky, but harder than laying on your back. It certainly doesn't look too taxing.. But there are Many, many harder jobs. The idea was that it's easy money.. there are a lot of harder jobs.

What do you think?

No.  Just because a few baseless arguments can allow someone to argue that Zalanthas is like Earth in one respect or another, doesn't make it so.

They are not baseless, far from it.  And what I am arguing is a similar concept, with very different reasoning.. You may not think so..

[WarriorPoet]

I think the two cities would have different ways of seeing prostitutes.

Allanak is kind of gritty and tough. Things are blunter there, and a whore would probably be that and only that. A person to pay a bit of coin to and in return get a good screwing. A whore.

Tuluk, on the other hand, I would see as having a drastically different outlook. Tuluk is a place of culture and art. Things there seem to be alot fancier and more ritualized. I think pillowhouses would reflect this. Whores would be seen as just another type of artist. A bard with her own personal instrument. While not in the same class as a bard or entertainer or something, I think that instead of the south's 'whores' the north would be more likely to look at them as better than a cheap screw alone. Courtesans, or something. She's not just a leg spreader ready to rut, she's a purveyor of ecstasy.

-WP

[Xamminy]

The term whore refers to a job.  A courtesan is still a whore, just a high-paid one.  Granted, calling a courtesan a whore would be derogatory, but so would calling a Kuraci a smack-pusher.  I mean, in both cases, they do the same thing, but one is higher paid and at a higher social strata.

I fell that calling someone that isn't a prostitute a 'whore' would all depend on the person's social strata, really.  Calling a rinthi a whore would probably end up in you getting laughed at, as most of them would happily spread their legs for some coin.  Calling a noble a whore...well, see, that implies that they need to do something like that to make cash.  That would be an insult, but so would calling the noble a courtesan.

[amoeba]

Tuluk, on the other hand, I would see as having a drastically different outlook. Tuluk is a place of culture and art. Things there seem to be alot fancier and more ritualized. I think pillowhouses would reflect this. Whores would be seen as just another type of artist. A bard with her own personal instrument. While not in the same class as a bard or entertainer or something, I think that instead of the south's 'whores' the north would be more likely to look at them as better than a cheap screw alone. Courtesans, or something. She's not just a leg spreader ready to rut, she's a purveyor of ecstasy.

Um, have you looked at the description of the one-legged one in Tuluk?  :shock:

[WarriorPoet]

Um, have you looked at the description of the one-legged one in Tuluk?  :shock:

One leg just makes it easier to get to. +25 sid.

EDIT: And as far as a whore and a courtesan being the same thing... Hmm.

A 'whore' implies to me that she is a wet hole with legs. That's it. She's there to be used and forgotten, except for the ache in your loins.

A courtesan, on the other hand, implies to me that she's at the VERY least not flea infested, not reeking of other mens armpits, and has at least a little skill in the arts of passion. While she's not a sexual goddess by any means, a woman whose called a 'courtesan' would be far more than just a wench who lays on her back as greasy bynners pump at her.

The semantics aside, I think my original point still remains. While most Nakkis might see a paid fuckbuddy as just a fuck, but in Tuluk there would be an art to it, aside from 'Use me and get off. I got another appointment at dusk.'

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

At one end of the spectrum are the toothless 'Rinthis that smell like a gutter

Now that would be one F-me that I wouldn't even think of snickering at.  Ha.. that'll happen.

As for how whores are seen, it depends.  I think concubines should be looked at as property.  No status at all.  Does your chair have status?   The templar's boot might have status - enough that you wouldn't spit on it, or enough that you'd move out of the way if it was walking toward you.  But would you want to make friends with his chamberpot?  Nah, no more than I would his spermbucket.  

For those indie whores, that toofless one-eyed sticky-socketed crooked-backed Gaj ho' well, I look at 'em like common property.  You pays 'n you owns.  He pays 'n he owns.  I look at 'em like tools, like property, like a walking pants-load of scrungy-mungus itchies.

With one exception:

If some Tuluki whore approached it as an artform and I mean, really played it out like a performance art.  I think that would rule and I would probably see it more of a profession than a form of slavery/gooey begging.

[wizturbo]

At one end of the spectrum are the toothless 'Rinthis that smell like a gutter

As for how whores are seen, it depends.  I think concubines should be looked at as property.  No status at all.

Concubines have a great deal of status.  They are non-slaves, that have won the favor of a noble or Templar.  A noble's concubine is just as much of a status claim as being the wife or husband of a famous/wealthy person in real life.  In fact, concubine and wife are the same exact thing, its just in armageddon formal marriages are done for politics and trade purposes, whereas making someone a concubine is for emotional and sexual significants.

A noble's concubine *is* a high tier on the social pyramid.  They aren't pleasure slaves.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Well, that is how you can see it.  I, and from that most of the characters I play, choose to go the property angle.  

A templar's pet lizard can "have a lot of status."  It is a "non-slave" and has "won the favor of a . . . Templar."  That doesn't change that it is, basically, property.  Concubine is the same concept to me.  A plaything that brings Templar X or Noble Y amusement and/or ornamentation.  If Templar X says, "Bow to my pet lizard!"   I'd do it in a heartbeat.  

But what has the true status here?  The templar, the noble.  Anything attributed to his playthings is borrowed status.

I disagree that concubine = wife.  Why not husband = concubine?  If all genders being equal, right?   When two nobles marry, one does not become a concubine.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Not quite, real life prejudice is that a whore is a non-virtuous woman. The definition of a whore is a woman that would sell herself for money. These are two different things. And no, not everyone is unskilled. Most people have some skill. Be that working in a merchant house, or as a guard or servant, slave, beggar, shoe shiner, hunter, scavenger.. burglar, bard.. you get the point... . Or even as an upscale prostitute or not upscale one. If you don't work, you can't eat...

Most people don't work in merchant houses.  Most people aren't guards or merchants.  Most people aren't burglars, hunters, or bards.  And finally, most slaves are unskilled laborers.

I don't want to sound like an ass, but if you think that a beggar or a shoe shiner could be considered a skilled professional then you don't know what those two words mean when put together.

Looking at a cross section of freeman, you'd see that of the majority that don't work for a noble or merchant house, most of them are either soldiers of the city's militia or independant merchants and traders.  The remainder make their living in more questionable ways (mercenaries, criminals, just about any PC, etc.).

I look at this and it seems to me that whores are neither unique nor worthy of revilement for their lack of skill.

Call me crazy, but I don't think it takes rocket science to assume that the warts on your privates or that burning sensation when you pee is cause by intercourse..  I mean,  I'm not talking HIV here.. just the common obvious ones.

It might seem obvious from our modern perspective, but it's actually a bigger leap of thought than you might think.  Especially in a society used to blaming everything on magickers.

I would say that shoveling shit off the streets, building the city walls, patrolling the city, hammering wood or stone, skinning hides.. Again, I could go on..  These are all hard jobs, maybe not risky, but harder than laying on your back. It certainly doesn't look too taxing.. But there are Many, many harder jobs. The idea was that it's easy money.. there are a lot of harder jobs.

Considering how revered the nobility are, I'm sure there's no cultural bias in favor of physical exertion.

[Tamarin]

Just because its the oldest profession (I still have my doubts about that...) doesn't mean it's the best.

[wizturbo]

Well, that is how you can see it.  I, and from that most of the characters I play, choose to go the property angle.  

A templar's pet lizard can "have a lot of status."  It is a "non-slave" and has "won the favor of a . . . Templar."  That doesn't change that it is, basically, property.  Concubine is the same concept to me.  A plaything that brings Templar X or Noble Y amusement and/or ornamentation.  If Templar X says, "Bow to my pet lizard!"   I'd do it in a heartbeat.  

But what has the true status here?  The templar, the noble.  Anything attributed to his playthings is borrowed status.

I disagree that concubine = wife.  Why not husband = concubine?  If all genders being equal, right?   When two nobles marry, one does not become a concubine.

Using your analogy, nobles have no status.  The Highlord, and Muk Utep do.  They're the sorceror-kings "pet lizards".

What my post was trying to detail, is people's status when viewed as a social hierarchy.  Within that system, a concubine holds status.  They might only have status because a noble like's their ass, but that noble only has status because Tektolnes allows them to saunter around his city.

[Angela Christine]

I think prostitute is equivilent to mercenary or laborer.  

A low-class, Unskilled freelance worker with poor training and equipment who hires himself out by the day or the hour is very low status.  He has no loyalty, no sponser, and tomorrow he could be working for your enemies.  This applies regardless of whether he is a sex worker, a ditch digger or a sellsword.  A 'rinthi prostitute, day laborer, or mercenary is very low status and has little chance of gaining much status.  These people may take in laundry or do other odd jobs as well.  One such freelance worker might occasionally work as a day laborer, a prostitute and a mercenary, depending on what work you can find on a given day.  (A PC who works some days as a obsidian miner, another day foraging for salt, a third day weaving crude baskets, on the fourth gathers rocks, and on the fifth answers the call to go fight in a big battle as cannon fodder for the templarate might fall into this "class" of worker).

A step-up from there you have Professionals.  The are reasonably well trained and have adequate equipment to do the job.  They usually work only in their chosen proffesion, going out to gather branches or salt because your regular buisness is a little slow would be embarassing.  You have proffessional mercenaries in the T'zai Byn and other mercenary companies, and soldier/guards in Kurac and other merchant houses would probably be considered to be at this level as well (although those organizations may consider their own workers at a higher level).  Apprentice and journeman level crafters might fall in as labourers at this level, along with construction workers and such.  A prostitute who has reasonably good clothes and uses lotions and things to smell nice would fall in here, as would one in the permanent employ of Kurac or a particular tavern.  Many commoners are at this level.

The you have Sponsered Proffesionals who are affilated with high status organizations or are highly skilled employees of medium stuts organizations.   Most master crafters would fall in here.  The guard in a noble house are sponsered proffesionals.  Most commoners will not look down on these folks.  Employees of a high-class brothel might fit in here.   The main thing that seperates them from the catagories below is that they do have loyalty to a particular person or organization, and that person or organization is presumed to guarentee their good behavior and take responsibility if they behave baddly.

Finally you have Elite workers.  They may be employed by a noble house, a merchant house, or self employed.  Nearly any organization would be happy to hire them.  A silk-clad prostitute who charges hundreds of 'sids per night (and is worth every penny) fits in here.  She knows stuff, not just sex stuff, but how to be an engaging conversationalist, how to stroke an ego and make those who hire her feel good about themselves, and how to fit in durring a formal noble ball or a casual night at the Bard's barrel.


Basically the fact that you are a sex worker, a labourer or a sellsword has very little to do with your social status.  The definineing points are how good you are at what you do, where you work, and who you work for.


AC

[Agent_137]

Thanks for explaining the thoughts i had in my head so much more clearly, AC.

Two factors:
one, the class of the job itself.
two, the quality of the job done.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I disagree that concubine = wife.

As far as this, I don't think it's meant that a concubine is the same thing as a wife in regards to nobles, because if what I've been lead to believe in this game is correct, when one noble marries another, it's usually more for political, monitary, and social gain. I don't know if they actually have arranged marriages in Zalanthas, but the way I've heard many of the marriages described, it's along those standards. You aren't marrying for love, you're marrying for gain. On the other hand, a noble takes a concubine for none of these things, because the concubine, before being attached to this noble, had none of these things. So being a nobles concubine does put them above normal prostitutes and workers, because they've been picked by a noble, basicly.

Why not husband = concubine? If all genders being equal, right?

Pretty sure there is such a thing as a male concubine, though if I'm not mistaken they typically go by another name. But it's the exact same status.

As far as some people saying the term whore is an earth term with earth inflictions and how on Zalanthas it doesn't matter at all, it's all dependant upon how you look at it, and I think most people who say that are misenterpreting the meaning of whore, to the meaning of 'slut'. Slutting around has less infliction IG, because plenty of people sleep with plenty of others, etc. They do it for free, they do it for fun. Now. A whore isn't someone who's doing it for fun, it's someone who's doing it for money. And as mentioned several times in this thread, there's different classes of all sorts of people who do different things for money. It's a matter of social class. Jump back to wild west days and saloon girls. The main reason they were looked down on by 'respectable' people was that they were selling it and sleeping with anyone who could pay. Take away the derrogatory fact that 'sex is sacred' and how it somehow matters how many people you sleep with, and it's just another low-class job (saloon girls anyway). Yet these girls are still a higher class of whore than the toothless, homeless old hag on the street.
Modern times. You've got the crack whore on the corner, or the professional 'escort' or 'exotic massuese'. They're doing the same thing basicly. But some have been trained, some haven't. Some are sleeping with whatever filth can support the habit, others are screwing blue-collar clean guys, and others the guy with the diamond-chipped cufflinks.
It's just a matter of perspective.

Oh.. It's 3 am. I forgot to add my opinion... Yes, I think calling someone a whore would have a derrogatory meaning, dependant upon who you said it to. because depending on their status, it may indeed be viewed on an insult, even if it's a legit career in our game world. Just like telling a nobles guard they're a dung sweeper. It's a legit job. But still an insult.

Or a different type of compairison. A bus, a cab, and a limo.. Or bus driver, cab driver, limo driver. What do they do? They all offer people a ride for a fee. The local bus, small change to get to the destination. Greyhound bus, charges more, not because it's nicer, but because it takes you further (or compairing to a whore, lets you do some weirder stuff for $$  :wink: ). Cab, a little cleaner, more convenient, but charges more. Limo driver, if you're hiring it for a one use thing, you're laying down a lot of dough for the fancy rented ride. Now if you've got the money to cover it, you can hire that nice clean, personal limo for unlimited use. It's there, waiting for you, nobody else gets it. *shrug* The anology makes sense to me.
Oh, and I'm sorry this got so long to read.  :oops:  

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

Using your analogy, nobles have no status.  The Highlord, and Muk Utep do.  They're the sorceror-kings "pet lizards".

Actually, no.  That analogy doesn't work.  Nobles are better than me (a commoner) because they simply are.  To a commoner, it doesn't even . . . shouldn't even occur to seek a why or a reason for the noble to be better.  It is in the blood, they're born better.  My character wouldn't think to grouse about how Lord X is only so high 'n mighty cause he's the Dragonking's pet.  Such thoughts would be so alien that if they would occur, the commoner should gouge his eyes out with an obsidian spoon for fear of the Dragon/Muk eating his soul.  

But his little toy, his grabass pinchtitty plaything isn't a noble.  Her blood is just as filthy and worthless as mine.  


I can't help but see this necessity to rank a thing's status as a way to dictate either Where I Fit In or How You Should Treat My Whore.  (Quit being mean! She has more status than you!)  

I don't think a whore/prostitute/concubine/addled spice-addict blowing for a grain should be looked down on.   I don't think they should be lifted up, exalted as a skilled and useful craftsman either.  I definitely disagree that they should be treated like half-nobility just because they're being used to pleasure the Lord.  Might as well exalt his cook.

Edit: some pre-coffee spelling errors

[Bestatte]

Getting back to the original thought in this thread: is the *term* "whore" appropriately derogatory or inappropriately derogatory in Arm?

I don't think the question is whether or not whores are good/bad. It's whether or not the term whore is the right word to use.

Obviously (yes, OBVIOUSLY), there are various social status regarding women who sell sex. That's a given, and I agree it should be responded to accordingly. But should we use the term "whore" to describe the woman who sells sex, who is at the low end of that social status yardstick?

My answer: It's as good a word to use as any, so I don't see why not.

If it bothers someone, they could make up a new word. It wouldn't change anything. It would be describing the exact same thing anyway.

So call them "neffers" if it floats your boat.

Neffer: someone of low commoner status (as opposed to high commoner status), who will swallow for sid, without any regard to their customer's status in life.

alternate definition: derogatory term used to insult someone of higher class, when implying that they are just fancy-dressed low-lifes.

Then we have the "snorels."

Snorel: someone of mid-level commoner status, who will lay on her back for sid, but is in a position of being able to afford to be picky about her customer. She might have a "no rinthis" policy, or refuse to bed down with any tribal, or anyone of her own gender. Or, she just might charge double for the privilege.

alternate definition: derogatory term used to insult someone of very high commoner status, when implying that they are just silk-clad low-lifes with a decent vocabulary.

Blafri: someone of high-level commoner status - employed by a city clan for the clan's exclusive use, and trained in the arts of pleasure to some extent. A blafri will have knowledge of city politics, who's who, and will possess the skills needed to report news/gossip/potential threats back to her employer.

Blafri: alternate definition: concubine wanna-be - derogatory term for someone employed as a concubine but behaves lower than her social status demands.

Concubine: the highest status of pay-per-screw people. Works for one noble/templar only, paid with a salary and/or free access to the house accounts. Acts as her employer's personal advisor (not to be confused with a House advisor), has the freedom to hire her own spies, has "run of the house" access to her clan's estate, pleasures her employer as/when needed, though this is only a very small part of the job. High-profile position amongst the upper class of commoner life, she is the hostess at her employer's parties, and is often present even in the most private meetings between her employer and another noble/templar.

Concubine: alternate definition: derogatory term to poke fun of a low-life who tries to behave like an upper-class person but fails miserably in the attempt.

How's that?

[Naiona]

I can't help but see this necessity to rank a thing's status as a way to dictate either Where I Fit In or How You Should Treat My Whore.  (Quit being mean! She has more status than you!)

Just to clear something up - a noble concubine in Allanak is not just someone who sleeps with a noble - anymore then a wife or husband should be assumed to be a partner that loves and desires their noble mate. Nobles have tons of people to sleep with if they want to - some of them being slaves, some just 'toys' , some courtesans and the occasional one that might rise to 'concubine'.

A concubine in Allanak is assumed to be acting as a personal aide, to have the ear of their lord and lady and often a great deal of influence upon them, and acts as their social planner, spy and dozens of other job titles.  In today's terms, a better description of a concubine might be 'Personal Concierge and Everything Else - With Benefits'. Often times, concubines have bastard blood to begin with.  Noble houses like Borsail watch who is brought on as a concubine and will often humiliate any noble who chooses poorly or too far 'down' in the social strata. Likewise, a good choice in concubine can bring a junior noble to the attention of their seniors as someone to watch for their political and social acumen.

[Akaramu]

Often times, concubines have bastard blood to begin with.  Noble houses like Borsail watch who is brought on as a concubine and will often humiliate any noble who chooses poorly or too far 'down' in the social strata. Likewise, a good choice in concubine can bring a junior noble to the attention of their seniors as someone to watch for their political and social acumen.

I'm going to evilly derail here, because now I'm very curious, and I doubt this would call for the creation of a new thread. I'm sure it interests others as well.  :wink:

Who would be an 'appropriate' concubine, and who is out of question? I'm sure it depends on many factors, but generally speaking. What are the rules of society on this?

Are concubines generally expected to be of lower rank and status than their noble patron, or are such 'alliances in bed and political plotting' possible between say, a noble and a templar? Without marriage, and without lowering each other to concubine status?

A few guesses (please correct me):

A high-ranked and trusted as well as socially and politically perceptive / active servant of one's own house could be considered a good choice.

A high-ranked servant / aide of another house would lead to bad blood and conflict on either side, or both - because of trust and other issues.

What about merchant family members? They are loyal to their own houses, with their own interests. All but senior merchants are quite low on the social ranking table, but their houses hold quite some power.

[Bestatte]

A pairing between a noble and a templar, or a noble and another noble, or a templar and another templar, would be officiated and considered a legal marriage primarily for political purposes. One would not take another as a concubine.

An "appropriate" noble's concubine would likely include some (or all) of the following:

Good grooming habits
Extreme patience in the face of adversity
Resiliancy
Be well-spoken, the type who can be "prim and proper" in public.
As educated as legally allowed to be for a commoner.
Capable of making quick decisions that would benefit her employer.
Not overly squeamish when confronted with unpleasant situations.
Capable of proving extreme levels of devotion and loyalty to her employer.
Capable of proving trustworthiness above and beyond the expectations of any other household member.
Ability to handle a budget, no matter how large or small.
Skill in the *art* of pleasure, rather than merely a few missing teeth to make it easier to give some rinth-rat a blow job.
Intelligence
Wit
Easy to look at - doesn't necessarily have to be a beauty, but I doubt a noble would pick a 3-eyed snake-haired woman with permanent pustules of putridity poking out of their pores to be their concubine.
Ability to be silent and still for hours on end.
Knowledgeable in the politics of the city.
Resourceful

Your average whore doesn't require most of that. There is no "average" concubine. They're ALL above average.

[wizturbo]

Who would be an 'appropriate' concubine, and who is out of question? I'm sure it depends on many factors, but generally speaking. What are the rules of society on this?

I'd go with the general rule, "If I put this person in a room full of nobles and templarate members, would they stick out like a sore thumb?  Or would they be able to shmooze and socialize like they belong there".  There would likely be some question of bloodline as well.  Being the son or daughter of a famous Military commander, a wealthy merchant house or a bastard noble would be viewed in a good light I would think.  Then there would also be the question of loyalty, which would be absolutely essential in my opinion, as any disloyalty would not only be a security risk but also risks involving the House in some scandal.

Basically, a concubine is as close to nobility as a commoner could get without Tektolnes himself declaring it so in Allanak :-)

[Naiona]

Akaramu is correct in her assumptions.  A 'good choice' for concubine would be someone that those in senior positions would trust to be completely loyal to the family in question. That is one reason that bastards are first choices.  

Members of merchant families -might- on a very rare occasion be accepted, but it would probably mean losing their status in their own family and likely require a lot of testing before the noble family would accept them. Such a choice would be looked upon carefully before gaining any approval. An employee of another noble house would likely be seen as a spy from day one and lose the noble in question a lot of 'face' within his or her own family. A trusted family servant might be a good choice if they spoke well and were known to move with ease in upper social circles.

Other nobles or templars would simply be lovers, and not known as concubines.  They would not be seen as the servant of the noble in question - and if they were, they would be humiliated.

It is likely that someone the family considers a poor choice as concubine might simply vanish from view. (read: Lady Fluffy's cousins have them discreetly killed so as to remove the threat without angering Lady Fluffy) Repeated bad choices could harm the noble in question's reputation so much that they find themselves quickly married off to someone considered otherwise too undesirable to gain a mate.

[Naiona]

Basically, a concubine is as close to nobility as a commoner could get without Tektolnes himself declaring it so in Allanak :-)

Well - close.  Bastards rank above concubines. Also, some merchant family members would be socially above concubines.  And unless a concubine has proven themselves over time, senior house servants may outrank them.  Also, the concubine's fortunes rise and fall with their noble, so they have a vested interest in acting as a spy/diplomat/servant whenever possible. The social rank table is here:

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

Again, I'll emphasize that sleeping with a noble doesn't make someone a concubine.  It just means they are sleeping with a noble.  Unless that distinction is made and accepted - a man or woman sleeping with a noble has no extra status for their effort beyond what wealth they might accrue.

[Larrath]

A concubine is an employee of the noble, or their slave.

Anyone that the noble just sleeps with is their lover, and I don't think there are any strict rules about this.  I can see a noble being upset that their aide slept with a noble of another house just as easily as I can see a noble being happy about that because it might better their relationships.

A noble or a templar will never be a concubine, unless they're actually stripped of their titles...and that's more or less only possible by really pissing off some senior noble or templar.


Having a polite, intelligent and 'good' concubine (on on aide-like level, making contacts and arranging meetings and all) can boost a noble's standing.  To be honest, a concubine isn't that much more than just a possibly more trusted aide.
Concubines get paid better, are dressed better, and taken care of better, but the job is essentially the same.  It just involves (more) sex.
Having a stupid, rude concubine, or possibly a non-standard one (one-eyed, or with a freakish mutation) can potentially damage the noble's standing.

Again, this is a lot like aides.  It may be possible for a noble to have a concubine as well as an aide, but assuming that the aide does all of the work, that concubine won't have as much effectual power as the other concubines.  A concubine like that would also get less formal exposure as the public face of the noble, and would thus have a lesser effect on them, for better or worse.

[Naiona]

A concubine is an employee of the noble, or their slave.

A slave with influence is something that rarely gets played out in game and I keep hoping that it will.  People forget that a slave can actually accrue a good amount of IC power in Armageddon and usually play them as either manual labor or guards.

A smart, loyal and trusted slave can rise to concubine (not to be confused with 'pleasure slave' - which is just a bed toy) in a noble house, just as they can rise to scribe (a non-noble that can legally read and write!) or even advisor.  Being a slave is not always a 'bad thing' and while it is unusual, it is not unheard of to see the highest slaves wearing jjewels and silks and serving in positions of power and influence.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

While I agree with the distinctions and various shades between sextoy and sexual advisor, how much of this would a common chump on the city streets know?    Just to clear my position up, I think that the simpler, uneducated folk won't know to distinguish the various degrees of Whore.  I'm not even sure that they'd care much.  

Perhaps other nobles, templars, UberMerchants would know and be sure to react accordingly within the laws of social status.

But would everyone else?  What I wrote still makes sense to me, even with the subtle high-class distinctions illustrated.   They not be noble, they be property.   So the property whispers advice 'n hosts parties 'n such. . .  wouldn't know cause Joe Dungseller don't get invited, what's he know?

[Naiona]

But would everyone else?  What I wrote still makes sense to me, even with the subtle high-class distinctions illustrated.   They not be noble, they be property.   So the property whispers advice 'n hosts parties 'n such. . .  wouldn't know cause Joe Dungseller don't get invited, what's he know?

Joe Dungseller certainly might not know what happens at the higher levels of society and wouldn't be expected to know.  My only two comments would be these:

1) In this world, money = power.  Seeing anyone dressed in silks and jewels is going to be a signal that they have the cash or the access to the cash to bribe/buy/beg a hurting on you if you piss them off.  Now - if Joe Dungseller doesn't care about that - we are talking about another issue entirely.

2) I'd just reiterate that being property wouldn't neccesarily be looked down upon.  Slaves are in some (rare) cases powerful people and the ones owned by the nobility are among the small percentage of the population that know where their next meal is coming from.  You might value your freedom, but you wouldn't neccesarily look down upon someone else for wearing a collar (though you might do so depending on your particular PC background).  After all, you are heading home (if you have a home) smelling like kank-shit, while that cook-slave over there is heading to a meal and a bunk in a safe barracks somewhere.

[Agent_137]

I find slavery in armageddon to bear -great- similarity to that in the time of Rome, especially the republic.

It bears absolutely no similarity to that practiced in the new world.

Just something to keep in mind when any discussion of slavery crops up.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I don't think a whore/prostitute/concubine/addled spice-addict blowing for a grain should be looked down on.   I don't think they should be lifted up, exalted as a skilled and useful craftsman either.  I definitely disagree that they should be treated like half-nobility just because they're being used to pleasure the Lord.  Might as well exalt his cook.

I agree with what you've said, Naiona.  Where I am drawing a distinction is (I think) in line with the topic this thread has bred.  Don't hate the whore, but she shouldn't be treated any different than any other VIP's property.  I'd even go so far as to say it should be a non-issue from a commoner's standpoint because the whore wouldn't be interacting much with scum like us anyway.  Since I'm starting to repeat myself, I'll do the gentle readers here a favor and stop.  
(I still would pay in steel coins to see a PC playing the -other- end of the insta Playboy Mansion billionaire geisha spectrum.  Bring me Toofless, the one-eyed, raw-socketed gimpleg spice whore!)

[wizturbo]

(I still would pay in steel coins to see a PC playing the -other- end of the insta Playboy Mansion billionaire geisha spectrum.  Bring me Toofless, the one-eyed, raw-socketed gimpleg spice whore!)

Amen.

[Delirium]

I think I've already stated my opinion somewhere, but summed up it is:

Whether or not calling someone a whore ends up being an insult relies a lot on the context of the situation. It's a mild insult at best, but for comparison's sake, I see it like this: Whores are like T'zai Byn mercenaries. They're just doing a job and they may or may not be good at it, but most of them smell like kankshit and it's a rare one that ends up getting any real respect from somebody that matters. It's not everybody's slice of ginka, and so not everybody's going to love you and hug you because you're a street whore/mercenary/soldier/hunter/whatever. At the same time, it's not anything out of the ordinary, nor is it particularly degrading in any sense beyond it being a 'lower class' occupation (not including concubines in this statement).

(I still would pay in steel coins to see a PC playing the -other- end of the insta Playboy Mansion billionaire geisha spectrum.  Bring me Toofless, the one-eyed, raw-socketed gimpleg spice whore!)

Amen.

Your wish is my command.

Give me a while, though, I rather like the character I've got now.

[Adhira]

I played that whore once.

No one wanted her saggy breasts and straggly hair, unfortunately. Why would they when it's so easy to get it for free from much prettier folk.  :wink:

[Xamminy]

I played that whore once.

No one wanted her saggy breasts and straggly hair, unfortunately. Why would they when it's so easy to get it for free from much prettier folk.  :wink:

Yeah, Arm's full of sluts.  :twisted:

[My 2 sids]

I think, in general, prostitutes would fall under the same category as physical laborers:  the wood choppers, ditch diggers, miners, etc.  because after all, prostitution is a form of manual labor isn't it?  Sure, some will be more skilled than others, but this is not the same "dream job" as say... "I want to be a skillful artist or guardsman for a House." Even the Byn have had some training at their job, were as 99% of prostitutes would not have had any training.  I don't see how the high status of concubines can some how loft prostitution to some kind of pedestal.  To put it in earthly measure it's like trying to put the local Karaoke singer along side Cheri... the two just can't be compared.

[Agent_137]

Yea, but how many singers started on Karoke Wednesday night when they were younger?