I'm a newbie

[Kennath]

Hello zalanthians, I am kennath your friendly neiborhood crazy. I am new to Arm and theses boards. I am not new to mudding, i've been RPing on muds for 3 years. I like they idea this game has and I think is my favorite mud. The only thing I DON'T like is the horribly painful saturdaydowntimes and i'll be sure to put  that in the review. I will hopefully be able to play here for awhile, I've decided I like this mud alot and won't leave it atleast for a year or so.

[Cuusardo]

Patience, Grasshopper.  Saturday downtimes might be a drag for the players, but in the long run you'll see that they are SO worth it.  It gives the IMMs some quality time to fix bugs, update code, and add new features.  That way they have more time during the week to make our PCs' lives more interesting.

[Xamminy]

There are updates to the mud that can ONLY be done with no players in the game.  Downtime has to happen.  The staff can't all be expected to do the updates that they need to do all at 3am in the middle of the week so that minimal player disturbance happens.  This isn't the sort of MUD where one person sits on a throne and is the only person to implement anything like in some MUDs.  Each staff member is implementing the things they are responsible for, and need some window of opportunity to do these things while not at work or sleeping.  The weekend is the only logical choice for this downtime.  Sure, it sucks for the players, because on the weekends is when we have all the freetime in the world and want to spend it ARMing, but the game is better for it...and thus, we will enjoy it that much more.

Also, this allows you to get in more saturday morning cartoon viewing time (always a good thing), as well as some real life activities on the weekend instead of sitting in front of your computer all day.

[Matrim]

Also, this allows you to get in more saturday morning cartoon viewing time (always a good thing), as well as some real life activities on the weekend instead of sitting in front of your computer all day.

Pfft, as if...  Xamminy, you know we all miss Saturday morning cartoons because we sleep in until 2pm, then just sit infront of our computers waiting for the game to come up!

[Hexxaex]

The thing about the Saturday downtime I hate the most is the time.

I think that Saturday is probably the time when everyone wants to be on.  If anything, I'm sure that most people here have jobs or school on weekdays.  Might be more conveniant to have the downtime on the times when we have the least amount of people on, like on a weekday.

Welcome to Armageddon!

[Akaramu]

If anything, I'm sure that most people here have jobs or school on weekdays.  Might be more conveniant to have the downtime on the times when we have the least amount of people on, like on a weekday.

Problem is, the staff members have jobs / school / family life as well, and they are not all able to work on the mud at the same time. The fairly long downtime helps for everyone to find a window that allows them to do their part of the update. Some might have time in the early morning, others only one hour before the mud comes back up.

And remember, they arent making any money from this.

[Whira's Luck]

I'm sure the admins have jobs and families or school too, which would mean that much of the only free time they have is when you have free time too.

Sure, it sucks to not be able to play, but as was said before, many of the changes implemented can only be put in when no one is logged in, and this way, the admins can focus on making the game more wonderful for everyone without having to deal with everything else that crops up when players are logged in.

[Ghost]

Welcome to Armageddon Kennath,

As others said, Saturday downtime is actually something that refreshes the game.  Dont worry about it.  As most of us, you may get used to make the Friday nights longer, in time .

And I love the Saturday morning cartoons!  Sometimes I dont sleep after the long friday night, not to miss them.

[Mook]

Saturday downtime is actually a psychological priming technique, reminding us every week how badly we need to Arm.  This intense desire to play, instilled over the course of an entire Saturday (when we've the most time to hang around and fixate on how badly we wish we were arming) drives us throughout the next week.  Then process is restarted the following Saturday and the pattern continues!  Why just eat our brains if they can control them!?

[Rhyden]

Patience, Grasshopper.  Saturday downtimes might be a drag for the players, but in the long run you'll see that they are SO worth it.  It gives the IMMs some quality time to fix bugs, update code, and add new features.  That way they have more time during the week to make our PCs' lives more interesting.

I think Saturday downtime is fine. Everything in the game is tweaked and fixed and every player is forced wantingly or not to take a short break from the mud world of Zalanthas, which can be highly needed at times.

[Anonymous]

I sort of doubt that Saturday day-time would be a be a very active time for the mud.  Sunday daytime certainly doesn't seem to be.

[fearwig]

I know this might be crazy talk, but:

Has anyone thought of running a second copy of the mud on a test port for implementation/changes/et cetera? Is that impractical, given the current server situation, or something? Because my old mud happened to do it this way, and the downtimes were nonexistent as a result. Possibly this is a suggestion from the uninitiated, but I've seen it work awfully well.

[Anonymous]

I know this might be crazy talk, but:

Has anyone thought of running a second copy of the mud on a test port for implementation/changes/et cetera? Is that impractical, given the current server situation, or something? Because my old mud happened to do it this way, and the downtimes were nonexistent as a result. Possibly this is a suggestion from the uninitiated, but I've seen it work awfully well.

This is a good idea implemented by many muds now, but do to the lack of use in this MUD it will be put in my review as a negative, but overall Arm is a great game.

[Bestatte]

A big problem with porting data over from a copy to the live game, is that things have to be tested to make sure they work for PCs of various types.

I could create a nifty new doodad for the game, only to find out that it's got a bad line of code in it that crashes the system whenever a half-giant tries to wield it, or if a vivaduan casts a specific spell while holding the item in his inventory.

The ideal way would be to implement everything live, but there's a very narrow margin of error that way. So Arm does next-best - a shut-down to make the changes, without interruption from this or that PC wishing up asking for animated NPCs, or another PC wishing up looking for their desc change, or bug reports and typoes and a myriad of other stuff, not to mention system notices and death notices and thoughts and dreams and psis etc. etc. etc...

A whole day for the IMMs to do what they need to do, without interruption, makes for far less mistakes than if they are continually having to stop what they're doing to watch the screen filled with PC activity.

[Mook]

I might be missing the point, but -

I could create a nifty new doodad for the game, only to find out that it's got a bad line of code in it that crashes the system whenever a half-giant tries to wield it, or if a vivaduan casts a specific spell while holding the item in his inventory.

Couldn't this be addressed by running a realtime testmud separately from the active player-populated mud?  Wouldn't need to be up all the time, just whenever IMMs felt like writing new stuff.  Then the changes could be compiled once a week or so and added to the real mud?

[Agent_137]

It's a good idea, the Imms wouldn't have to be bothered by wishes and such if they are logged into this work-only mud.

I'm pretty sure ginka is capable of running two muds, excepting perhaps harddrive space.

It's definitely worth looking into, if it hasn't been.

[Bestatte]

That defeats the whole idea.

See - if they're not watching "the" game anyway, because they're busy on the copy doing their work, then there is absolutely no IMM available for anything in "the" game. And if there is no IMM available at all for an entire RL day, then you might as well just shut the game down that day. Otherwise, they'll end up spending the NEXT day reading e-mail asking why no one responded to their cry for help, complaints about their character being murdered because there weren't any IMMs to animate the templar who was standing RIGHT THERE WATCHING THE ENTIRE TIME...

Etc. etc. etc.

Plus - a copy of the game doesn't resolve the issue of needing people to test things. IMMs can't test things efficiently without players. I've seen this happen in a game that does have a duplicate...and it's UGLY.

Like I said, the absolute ideal is to do everything live, while the game is up, IN the game itself, so players can experience changes immediately. But that doesn't work very well with DIKU, so the next best is to just shut it down.

Really - it isn't such a big deal to take one day a week off from playing Arm. And the headache involved in changing how all this works just to appease a few who don't like saturdays off isn't worth the effort, in my opinion.

[Xamminy]

Having a test-port is fine and good, but that doesn't take into account changes that are happening in the game as it is running.  How would you like to have everything ported over and lose all the things you'd done since the last reboot?

[Linedel]

Just to avoid anyone getting wrong ideas about software project management...  The reasons posted in this thread against working on a 2nd port are ridiculous... it's trivial to manage multiple sets of data; solved years ago.  There are multiple staff members...  It's trivial to open a 2nd shell window to be logged into both, that's why X (i.e., Windows) was invented...

I'm sure, however, that there is a valid reason.  For example, Armageddon is or was a resource hog, and ginka used to be barely capable of running just one copy of the mud and the board simultaneously...  Whether or not that is still true is beyond my knowledge.

Considering it's a free game, the staff can choose to do maintenance Friday nights, and state that they just don't want anyone playing while they're watching Stargate and Battlestar Galactica.  The actual reason doesn't matter, and isn't required information for players.

[Bestatte]

Trivial? I beg to differ. No in fact I don't beg. I differ.

It isn't trivial to be logged in to both ports simutaneously and having to tab back and forth constantly and be interrupted regularly and have to deal with both the work you're trying to get done, and the "live" game going on at the same time.

It's not only not trivial, it's MORE effort than just sticking with the live game and implementing stuff there while all your screen-scroll is going on with the PC population.

The staff needs time to do what they do without interruption. This cannot be accomplished if the game is up, because some of them need to be THERE to oversee things. And that's time that they could be doing what they do, taken away from them. They get that 6 days a week. They need time - reserved specifically for them and no one else. Where they won't have a beep from their e-mail program telling them they have new mail from PC JoJo saying they're needed to animate an NPC. Or an IM from PC Bobo saying they're stuck in a ditch and can someone please slay their character so they can make a new one. Or whatever else.

They already get plenty of e-mails from players on Saturdays, it would be even more difficult for them to get down to business if they had to ALSO contend with player needs while the game was up and running.

Really. Is it THAT difficult to walk away from your computer once a week and go shopping, or wash the floor, or have sex with your SO, or watch a movie with a sibling, or read a book?

[Delirium]

Really. Is it THAT difficult to walk away from your computer once a week and go shopping, or wash the floor, or have sex with your SO, or watch a movie with a sibling, or read a book?

[Realedazed]

Really. Is it THAT difficult to walk away from your computer once a week and go shopping, or wash the floor, or have sex with your SO, or watch a movie with a sibling, or read a book?

Remember the last time this question was asked by a someone.  It turned into a bunch of flames and in the end it had to be locked.  We don't want to insult him and turn him away completely.  The game is still great from Saturday evening to early Saturday morning.

Its been some good suggestions in this thread, though. I wish I knew about programming so I could offer up a few.

[Kennath]

Would you mind if only staff respond past this, I am interested in their opinions and ideas.

[bracken]

its better than being locked out Sunday am...but yeah there must be a time zone to shift too some where between me and thee.

[Tlaloc]

Hey, Kennath, and welcome to Armageddon! For future reference, if you want only staff to respond to a post, post it under the 'Ask the Staff' forum.

Firstly, let me just state that the staff have many, many tools at thier disposal. This includes many (if not all) of the ideas that have been posted above.

Saturday downtime has been the bane of many an Crackageddon Fiend since the early 90's. I remember when I was a player, it was a pain in the ass...untill I learned the secret: stay up all night playing Armageddon on Friday Night, and you sleep through the Saturday downtime, heh heh heh.

To answer some of your questions: I'm afriad Saturday Downtime is going to stay. There are a few reasons for this:

1) Saturdays are a time to impliment code changes. Yes, we can run tests on testports, during the week, but any change in code requires a reboot of the Mud. Rather than bringing the Mud down at random intervals throughout the week, we prefer to generally do this during Saturday Downtime, to allow the players an uninterrupted game. Having to bring down the game during roleplay is like having your girlfriend call in the middle of an intensive tabletop game: its no fun, and takes you out of the moment.

Its also nice to have a stable environment to make sure everything is fixed without causing too many waves. The latest changes with the furniture code, for example, took most of a Saturday to work all the bugs out, and we had the coder, and a handful of staff trying to break it howerver we could to try and work out all the kinks.

Saturday is also a quiet day for our coders to code outside of a work environment, or while being tired and cranky after a long day of working. Believe me, its hard for people to get the gumption to do what they do every day at work, just for a few laughs.

2) Though we can impliment zone changes at any time, it can be a surprising, and disturbing thing for players to witness. Furthermore, it can destroy objects placed somewhere via gameplay, or accidentally cause them to load forever. Without being careful with zone changes, you can slowly deplete an area of NPCs, and cause them all to be saved in other areas.

This might not seem like a big deal, but it becomes an issue when, say, there are no more gith in the Tablelands, and 40 gith are loading two rooms outside of Tuluk.

These are issues that are facilitated by players interacting with the dynamic world, and its something we'd rather avoid. Furthermore, stopping play, in say, Allanak, just so we can save a new beggar NPC into the zone just isn't worth the trouble.

It also saves in dealing with wishes as people wonder why all the NPCs exploded at once. Its both at once a convinience to you, the players, as much as to us.

3) Saturday Downtime is a time for the staff to meet, and discuss various things, uninterrupted by mortals and in a quiet environment. It ranges from: "So, I think we should start a plotline where we destroy Tuluk, and Allanak takes over the world." to: "d00d. You smell like mek farts."

The downtimes are times when we brainstorm, and come up with some of the best plots we've run, or discuss future code changes (like furniture code, nested emotes, etc). Could we do these during the week? Certainly. In fact we do. But the downtimes are a time where the staff can turn thier attention undividedly to maintaining and updating the Mud.

During the rest of the week, we spend much of our time switching into NPCs, responding to wishes, returning emails, posting on various boards, putting out fires, starting other fires, building and creating the changes we will impliment on Saturday, watching our clannies mudsex, approving/rejecting/editing applications, playing the game ourselves, going to work, going to school, looking for work, and trying to keep our signifigant others from killing us from spending way too much time on this game, and not enough time showering them with flowers and kisses.

Think that answers your question?

[Kennath]

Do the staff approve your characters faster if they like you?

[Marauder Moe]

Yes, and they like you if you spell-check and correctly format your apps.  

[Kennath]

speaking of which my char ap hasn't been approved/rejected and its been 25 1/2 hours since i sent it in, is this normal?

[Kankman]

Log back in and disconnect using 'x' rather than just disconnecting. If you drop link after sending in the app it can't be approved because it considers you are still editting it. So, just log in to your account, press x and hit enter. Things will go faster.

[Kennath]

Did that, next idea?

[joyofdiscord]

Wait for your app to be approved.  Also, if you select "list your characters" while logged in, you will see the character that is pending approval there, so you can be sure that the app went through.

[Kennath]

I exited useing the x disconnect thing 26 hours ago, not just now... WTF

[Delirium]

Did that, next idea?

Patience.

[Kennath]

P4t13nc3 15 t3h 5ux0r, i'm gonna watch dirty harry...

[Bestatte]

Also keep in mind, they don't mean use the "x" at the upper right corner of your client to close the window. You need to type the actual letter X in the game, when the menu prompts you to disconnect.

[Kennath]

Thats what I did.... 27 hours ago...

[fearwig]

Thats what I did.... 27 hours ago...

Smithers! Call my lawyers!

I know it's pretty evil to resurrect a thread that ended like this, but I did like the commentary on saturday downtime and alternatives, even though it seems pretty futile.

Has anyone considered making Saturday a no-wish day, rather than a no-play day? I realize that there are cases like the templar who saw the murder happen, but that seems like a rather extreme exception to the rule.

Probably not the best idea in the world, but I think it's explorable.

Plus, I strongly suspect that there are imms who are responsible for roleplay alone, and are not involved in the code or testing process. These people would be entirely free to service the mud on saturdays, given the test port scenario.

As for the "random reboots", well, some muds have such a thing as a "copyover warning", basically a reboot warning--items on the ground will be zapped, but you'll get say, 30 seconds warning that this will occur, or more, perhaps. While it might be detrimental, you could potentially permit action during that period to be considered OOC, that things may be picked up and then replaced so that the game may go on.

A whole day's delay is, after all, a great deal more harmful to ongoing RP than five minutes'.

An OOC broadcast should definitely warn players before a reboot anyway--one doesn't now, does it?

[Maybe42or54]

Yea.. But I don't.

I already feel bad that I schedule to have a full day on Saturday of me and other humans, non pc type people.

Including, sex!

[fearwig]

Sex is stupid. That's what porn is for.

[Xamminy]

fearwig, the reason the mud goes down for players is so that updates to the game can be done that can not be done while the game is live.  The reason it is down for so long is to give all staff the chance to make updates that they need to.  It has little to do with players bothering the staff.

True, not all staff are involved with the direct code, but one does not need access to the code to build, just to be staff.  Some updates that have nothing to do with code are the ones that can't be done with players in the game moving about and changing things at the same time.

Also, yes, an OOC broadcast gives warning well before 5 minutes, however, that comes at the time that the Staff wants to shut the game down to players.  It is heavily encouraged that you wrap things up as quickly as is possible and let them shut the game down.

Does that answer your concerns?

[fearwig]

Yes, though I think my point wasn't a complaint about the mud going down or a question as to why it must so much as an offering: a lot of muds do use a test port (a separate copy of the mud running on another port for admin access, that is), and I was suggesting this as a feasible way around the offtimes. I do see the other reasons that the day as a whole is given, though, and I can certainly live with it, if it means the mud gets to be as fantastic as it is now.

The rest was pretty much elementary "I'm not sure if you do this already..." (but as it turns out you do) stuff. I can see where you thought I was wondering about the need for the day as a whole, if you'd only noticed to read my last post in the thread.

I know this might be crazy talk, but:

Has anyone thought of running a second copy of the mud on a test port for implementation/changes/et cetera? Is that impractical, given the current server situation, or something? Because my old mud happened to do it this way, and the downtimes were nonexistent as a result. Possibly this is a suggestion from the uninitiated, but I've seen it work awfully well.[/quote}

[Xamminy]

Yes, I did read your last post.  I won't say if there is a test-port or not, but what I'm trying to impress is this:  some of the changes made are not code-related and are world-related.  Those changes have to be done to the live port for them to affect the world that we play in, and done without players logged in changing things.

I understand what you're saying, but for the mud we all know and love to continue to operate in the fashion that we all know and love, downtime is a necessary evil.