Great merchant houses

[My 2 sids]

Without changing the topic in the recent 'Nenyuk should offer more services' threads, I'd like to take a moment to talk about the merchant houses in general; namely, the idea that they are true monopolies.  

Each maintains a tight and ruthless control over their own markets and have gathered themselves enough wealth and influence that they have become major players in the history and politics of Zalanthas.

See, the great merchant houses don't need to offer much in the way of amenities to their customers.  Not because it would be a pain OOCly, but because ICly, they have no reason to.  Zalanthas isn't capitalistic with a great number of laws about how business should perform.  Blood (noble) rules the land and any pull that money has in society is dictated by these few families that seem to have an exurbanite amount.  The great merchant houses hold all the cards.  There's no such thing as "taking one's business elsewhere" if the consumer doesn't like what he or she gets.  If the customer doesn't want to give business to the great merchant houses, it's the customer who looses.  The great merchant houses are the ones with the best people, most reliable, best products... if someone doesn't do business with them, there are always thousands more than eager to be a customer of the great merchant houses.

[Koala]

See, the great merchant houses don't need to offer much in the way of amenities to their customers.  Not because it would be a pain OOCly, but because ICly, they have no reason to.  Zalanthas isn't capitalistic with a great number of laws about how business should perform.

A true monopolist will always be looking to increase its profits if there is a chance to do it. Zalanthas, as you said, is composed of monopolist merchant houses but I don't see a reason not to improve themselves to increase their profits. Given their monopolistic powers, if the cost of implementing a new feature to an on-going product (can be anything, for Nenyuk I can say new transaction features for their custumers - of course with additional costs) is much lower then the expected gain, then those true monopolists will be eager to implement it. Noone refuses to have more money, isn't it the case especially in Zalanthas ?

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Nenyuk is the only Merchant House with a true monopoly.  There are always independent merchants who can provide you with whatever you need, but a fly-by-night outfit just can't provide the confidence it takes to hand over thousands of 'sid and just say "Here, you hold on to this now."  Whether this is a reason why Nenyuk wouldn't offer certain services, I'm not sure.

[My 2 sids]

The definition of a monopoly is to hold the majority, not 100%.  By definition the other little shops and venders simply don't take away a big enough portion of potential profits.

[JollyGreenGiant]

The merchant Houses are entirely dependent on the massive wealth accumulated by the noble Houses, the templarate, and goods and services provided by the noble Houses.  The merchant Houses can't afford, in the long term, not to cater to the nobility and templarate.  Let's take "you can't afford to annoy the templarate" as a given.  You can't afford a massive break with most of the noble Houses, either.  Even assuming that you ignore the power that the nobility hold over the merchant Houses with regard to the government of both city-states, you run the risk of tampering with your food supply, water supply, slave supply, and other vitally important areas controlled exclusively by the nobility in the cities.

In other words, the merchant Houses have EVERY incentive to maintain good service, at least as far as the upper classes are concerned.

[Maybe42or54]

The merchant Houses are entirely dependent on the massive wealth accumulated by the noble Houses, the templarate, and goods and services provided by the noble Houses.  The merchant Houses can't afford, in the long term, not to cater to the nobility and templarate.  Let's take "you can't afford to annoy the templarate" as a given.  You can't afford a massive break with most of the noble Houses, either.  Even assuming that you ignore the power that the nobility hold over the merchant Houses with regard to the government of both city-states, you run the risk of tampering with your food supply, water supply, slave supply, and other vitally important areas controlled exclusively by the nobility in the cities.

In other words, the merchant Houses have EVERY incentive to maintain good service, at least as far as the upper classes are concerned.

And they also depend on everyone that -wants- to be better then they really are. The ones who want to be a little bit more in with the fashion. the ones who have a little extra 'sid and want to live a little longer, by armoring themselves a little more.

Nenyuk doesn't have to do anything. They already have Housing and Banking.

Kadius- Clothes and jewelry, and -people knowing that they sell fine stuff.-

Etc..

[Linedel]

Zalanthas, just like every world, everywhere (including "communist" Russia and China, for example), is fully capitalist.  Don't let anyone fool you.  Individuals aren't stupid, and don't support anything other than capitalism at a micro level.  People with limited funds will always (try to) make choices to best use those funds.  If it means buying from a street vendor, they'll do that.

Nobody actually has a monopoly on anything (save Nenyuk).  Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac compete on weapons.  Salarr and Kurac compete on armor.  Kadius and Delann compete on some raw materials.   Kadius and Deuring compete somewhat on clothing.  Some coded independants (significant enough to have a room and multiple NPCs) compete somewhat with Kadius on jewelry.  etc., etc.

One can point out that only Kadius can really support itself off the upper class.  Therefore... the rest of them are very well going to care about what their customers think compared to the other houses.


Regarding Nenyuk specifically - they make their money when people disappear.  One points out that RandomHunter003 disappears pretty often.  They have a pretty strong desire to make sure RandomHunter003 knows about their existence (and that's the guy that may not).  Nenyuk has as many business concerns as everyone else.

[Marc]

*stuff*

Trying not to flame here, but you really REALLY need to read the docs about the merchant houses.  You're so off base it's practically funny

And it is a feudal society, not a capitalist society.  There is no other way to explain how some blue-blooded noble could order the death of the richest merchant in the city and get it.

[Whira's Luck]

I have to agree with Marc here, Linedel, you're quite off base with how the merchant houses operate and even *possibly* the way people spend their money.

The economic models for trade aren't capitalistic, in fact obsidian isn't everything, hence why merchants will often trade for wares. All of the merchant houses supply a particular niche, and while small-time traders may nose their way into grabbing a miniscule marketshare, the commoners who buy from them know they may be getting ripped off. The merchant houses, however, provide quality goods that your average commoner knows won't break or be destroyed for the money they paid for it, and quality-wise, piece per piece at the same price and materials, a merchant house's items (for those merchant houses who sell products as opposed to services) are of higher quality, even the shoddier, cheaper items.

While some merchant houses may have items that appear to be in competition, this is in actuality a small amount of items if at all, and they may also be goods that were developed between houses, with both houses reaping profits from the sale. However, I can tell you with utmost certainty that if Kurac began marketing jeweled silks and Kadius began selling heavy armor and Salarr began selling spice pipes, they'd likely piss off a lot of people within their own houses, not to mention the others. There is quite a bit of politicking in economic matters and each merchant house carries the means to crush opposition within their respective niches. Likelier than not, that jewel-encrusted bone sword that the Kadian sold was either a Salarr item resold, or not something that would stand up to the rigors of battle.

Another point about Kadius supporting itself on the upper class: Just because you see many PC's ordering and buying upscale merchandise doesn't mean that merchant houses produce only those items. A Salarr merchant will just as readily sell you a 10 obsidian dagger as a 1000 obsidian one, and a Kadian will take an order for a sandcloth dress just as readily as they would a silk one.

About Nenyuk: that may or may not be how Nenyuk makes its money. Among its interests, it's difficult to say. They may make 200 sid off of random hunter 003 that manages to accrue that much, but that's piddly compared to the thousands and thousands and thousands of sid kept by large factions like noble houses and merchant houses and I'm pretty sure Nenyuk doesn't keep any of that.

[deinol]

I think some people forget that Capitilism is Economics, not Politics. Go read the Wealth of Nations, by Adam Smith (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3300), who examines the development of capitilism in Europe. Despite monarchy and nobles, the market is driven by basic forces of supply and demand.

Example: Salarr makes money making weapons. It can keep it's hold on the market through monopolistic tendancies, such as driving out major competition, but it doesn't make money unless it sells things. If they make 10,000 balsa wood swords that break after one hit, they can't sell them, even if they are the only game in town. They may be the only place to buy certain types of things, but they still have to respond to the market and produce weapons that people will buy. May be over priced, and I doubt they keep their monopoly based on faith in the quality of their goods. They simply have to have some level of quality or nobody will buy them.

Keeping the nobles happy is a matter of politics. They can't afford to upset them, not only because they are a primary source of profit, but also because of the power that is held over them (IE, ordering a rich merchant's death). But they still are driven by market forces. They make thousands of obsidian longswords and daggers, because that's what people buy. The commoner struggling to survive in the harshworld, and the highlord by the truckload for his soldiers.

So what's my point? Even a monopoly has to pay attention to the market, because they have to have a viable market to be a monopoly over. If I have a monopoly on widgets that do nothing, look ugly, and break easily, it's not a very profitable monopoly.

[Kalden]

One might say that Zalanthas has a capitalist system with a bunch of monopolies. But that would be wrong. Oligopolies exist, certainly, but there are plenty of entrepeneurs. The Merchant Houses actually cut prices through production of scale, it seems - notice that they often sell at prices a hell of a lot cheaper than NPC independents? They don't even rip people off that much. Their workers have it so nice that they don't even need unions.  

Linedel and deinol seem the most on-top of it here. Zalanthas is certainly much more capitalist than feudal. A feudal government would have a manorialist economic system. Does the government even own all the land? Do the peasants farming around Allanak and Red Storm lease their land from 'nakkian nobles, private landowners, or own it themselves?

[Larrath]

The Merchant Houses are powerful entities.


They may not have the Blood that the nobility has, or the military forces that the Templarate has, or any of the legal powers held by the Senates.

Senates; not Noble Houses.  Pissing off a Junior, or even a low-level Senior, is not likely to mean there will be a new silk tax the next morning.  This doesn't mean the House is likely to completely get away, but even the Noble Houses are limited.  The Noble Houses also depend on the Merchant Houses - sure, House Uaptal could probably store its wealth of 'sid in some vault in the estate, and hire independents for the spice...but if they want armor and weapons, or some new clothes, they're stuck with Kadius and Salarr.

In the fashion-crazed Allanak, this leaves Kadius with a very decent deal of power; people may not follow this due to playability issues, but Allanaki nobles generally race to the Emporium every week (through aides, of course) in order to find the latest, most outrageous piece of clothing, and to have it before anyone else does.


Merchant Houses are not Noble Houses, but they're by no means weak.  The Sorcerer-Kings could easily kick them out (or just kill them), but there would be serious concequences to that later.


Merchant Houses -can- afford to piss off a Noble, or even an entire Noble House, and expect to get away with it.  Senates are politics, and House Borsail doesn't get more votes than House Rennik.  It all depends on the magnitude, timing and manner of execution.

[deinol]

When I said Merchant Houses can't afford to piss of Nobles, I meant the Nobles collectively, not individually.

Larrath is correct: Merchant houses are powerful, and have some measure of protection. If Salarr and Tor got into an argument, Salarr could stop providing them weapons, Tor would be pissed, but likely couldn't and wouldn't destroy the House Salarr. As long as most of the Houses in Allanak are happy with Salarr, Salarr will still be doing plenty of business in 'nak.

Now, if Salarr started funding and supplying a rebellion against the Highlord, that would be somewhat foolish and would have dire consequences for them. At least, if they got caught.

So I stand by my assertion that keeping nobles happy is part of the politics of a Merchant House. They must keep enough of the noble houses happy to be protected from the nobles that they manage to rub the wrong way.

[Marauder Moe]

Now, if Salarr started funding and supplying a rebellion against the Highlord, that would be somewhat foolish and would have dire consequences for them. At least, if they got caught.

I wasn't playing at the time, but where do you think the Rebellion and eventually the reestablished city of Tuluk got most of their weapons from?  They most certainly do now, and probably did back then, sell weapons to both sides.

[deinol]

I have no IC knowledge of those events, so I don't really know how it went down. If Salarr managed to ship wagon-loads of obsidian swords to the rebellion and not get caught, good for them. If the rebels bought small numbers of weapons from the open stores in the market, I don't think anyone would blame them for it.

I was thinking more specifically of providing financial support and giving them free/discounted weapons. It's one thing to sell weapons in the market. It's quite another to be a driving force that is actively creating and organizing an enemy army.

As I said, I have no knowledge of what really happened in that case. All my statements are hypothetical on that. But my point was, if a merchant house started doing things that directly threatened the existance of the majority of noble houses, their wealth would not be protection from their wrath.

[Marauder Moe]

I meant to say that they probably weren't that quiet about arming rebels, or at least that any such activity is well known today.  Also, even in current times Allanak and Tuluk are enemies, yet Salarr arms BOTH armies quite openly.  All the other great merchant houses do similar (with a slight exception to House Kurac, but thats a different matter).

[deinol]

Truth of the matter is, most Nobles in Allanak don't care what goes on up North. I think Salarr would get into serious trouble if it was supplying a rebel army based in the 'rinth and bent on completely overthrowing Tektolnes, which would directly affect the nobles in Allanak.

Anyway,  I think we've de-railed this thread far enough. If you really want to explore these issues more, I suggest trying them IC and seeing what happens. Or I guess just start a different thread.

[Xamminy]

A couple points to be made:

Nenyuk deals in housing and banking.  100% monopoly.

Kurac deals in desert survival gear, this includes light-weight armor and clothing designed to protect the wearer from the environment as well as some limited amount of weapons.  They make most of their money by selling to hunters and those that employ hunters.  This would include those hunters for the other GMHs, who are their customers, moreso than the GMHs themselves.

Salarr deals in tools of warfare.  Heavier armor designed for combat, not hunting.  This includes armor and weapons.  They make the majority of their money by selling to the city-states themselves and not to commoners.

Kadius deals in luxury goods, not weapons.  They do produce a few decorative weapons, but that is mostly what those are, decoration.  They make most of their money by selling to the nobility, templarate and the GMH family members that desire such things.

See, Kadius does not overlap with anyone, nor does Nenyuk.  The only potential overlap is Kurac and Salarr, but the subtype of gear within the type that does overlap is geared towards different markets.  That is the difference.

[Halaster]

Nenyuk deals in housing and banking.  100% monopoly.

That is somewhat wrong.  Yes, Nenyuk deals in housing and banking, and they are the only ones who deal in banking, but there is some housing that is not Nenyuk.  There may not be much to it, but it exists.  So your "100%" is wrong.

Salarr deals in tools of warfare.  Heavier armor designed for combat, not hunting.  

While they may primarily deal in non-hunting armor, it does not mean they do not ever deal in it.  They sell armor that is better designed for hunting than combat, just not as much of it as the combat oriented armor.

See, Kadius does not overlap with anyone, nor does Nenyuk.  The only potential overlap is Kurac and Salarr, but the subtype of gear within the type that does overlap is geared towards different markets.  That is the difference.

Again, wrong.  While it may be subtle, Kadius does indeed own a shop that sells bows, arrows, and other hunting goods, including some desert gear (thereby overlapping both Salarr and Kurac).  This is a left over from the days prior to the Occupation.  As a whole, you are right, but to say there is no overlap is incorrect.  There are also some smaller merchant houses that have some competition with Kadius, albeit not enough to worry them.

[Xamminy]

I stand corrected, and sheepishly.  I knew most of this too and just wasn't thinking about it.

Would it still be fair to say that Salarr's target market is not hunters?

And as far as the smaller merchant houses, I was kinda ignoring those on purpose, not being one of the big 4 GMHs.  :wink:

[ashyom]

That's not accurate either, Xam.  
Salarr's target market is anyone who needs armor or weapons.  They don't make a distinction.  They have both light and heavy gear for people.  Including desert/hunter gear - after all, the world is mostly desert, and most of the food for the cities comes from either farms or hunters.

Kurac, however, specializes in desert armor/weapons, and may have better designs for that environment than Salarr does.  I say 'may' because it's really matter of opinion.  Of course one will say theirs is better than the other.

Their markets do overlap, but the distinction is fine enough to keep them from getting pissed off at each others.