Guild/Class Idea

[Marc]

I'll try to make this clear:

Instead of the basic mundane guilds, there is one guild option at creation: mundane.

Race, sub-guild, sex, age, height and weight would all remain the same.

Enter the game, point starting location and all of your basic skills are set.  No main-guild skills yet, just everything else.

Still have sub guild skills.  Still have local-based skills.  Still have psionic skills.

At anytime after that the player could do a 'change guild me (warrior/merchant/etc)' and they would have their class set.  This could happen once.

It would have to be a smart command so that skill levels on subguild and location skills that coincided would remain at any increased levels above starting %.

One done the player would be as they are now but would allow for flexibility to initial in game interaction.

Meet a swordsman who wants an apprentice?  "Never tried but happy to learn!"

Make a friend among a gang of thieves?  "Sure, I'll come along and help you guys out."

etc etc.

Some guild skills (Cavilish?) and starting skill levels might have to be tweeked for balance and realism ("Hey guess what I can speak now?" but otherwise, any drawbacks?

[Agent_137]

Yes. One.

The guilds you have now are the -result- of years and years doing just that.

You're a pickpocket? Well, the reason that you don't fail 10 times out of 10 is because you've been doing it since you were six.

You're a warrior? Well, the reason you don't stab your own toe is not because of some "destiny" or "natural aptitude" but because you've been fighting since you were a kid. You probably had a small wooden sword as your only toy.

That's the central problem with this mundane guild. How do you explain skills at the guild level?

Further, what has your character -been- doing to stay alive? It seems to me his primary guild should reflect that. If all he's been doing is working stone and smiling and talking and eating, it sounds like he's a merchant to me. But if he's been working stone and pounding down critters that get between him and his quarry, maybe he's a warrior.

I think a "commoner" guild would do much better than a "mundane" guild.

Base your guild choice on your character's background, NOT on what kind of offers he gets.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Base your guild choice on your character's background, NOT on what kind of offers he gets.

As someone who has employed a steady stream of PCs for over a year, I can see the merits of what Marc is suggesting.  Some of the positions you want to fill are very specific, and I don't mean an assassin or spy.  Let's say you need a master jeweler - nothing but a merchant classed character will suffice.  You will come across twenty people with the desire and personality and non-coded skills (diplomacy, good business sense, etc) to fill the position you have available, but the WRONG skillset.  In fact, you never run across your master jeweler, because everyone that is interested in playing a master jeweler goes to work for, say, Kadius, never considering that House X might need or want such a position.

This is as much a failing of the current "announcement" system as anything, in my opinion.  Some clan positions are just impossible to fill without advertising that you have that type of role available.  Everyone knows about Guards, aides, and so on, but many Houses have more specialized and very interesting roles that people can fill, but that no one knows about because the role isn't one of the "standard" ones.

I understand why such positions are not advertised on the GDB.  Marc's suggestion solves two problems at once - it simultaneously allows people who aren't sure what kind of role they want to take a bit of flexibility and solves the employer's dilemma of finding all the right people with all the wrong skills.  I think something like this would be quite a useful addition if it is feasible to implement.

[deinol]

This could be feasible to do. However, instead of all of a sudden giving the character all those skill bonuses, the change in class would simply unlock those skills to be learned. So while your pick-pocket rating would still be your untrained skill of 0, you now have it listed as a skill, so as you start practicing  it would go up. And fairly quickly as you'll fail quite a bit at the beginning.

Another alternative I'd like to see, but would be a move toward a classless system which will never occur, would be to allow someone who has absolutely mastered a skill be able to teach others, giving them a skill they previously hadn't possessed. Probably need to have some basic requirements built in, so they might still need pre-reqs to acquire the skill, but it would make it so a character can evolve beyond their initial class. Maybe limit it only to crafting abilities, I can see a lot of potential for abuse in other places.

My current character isn't uber good at his class skills, but good enough for most of my purposes. But if possible I could easily see him wanting to learn a few crafts as hobbies.

Anyway, interesting ideas, unlikely to occur in practice.

[Jorlain]

Jack of all trades, master of none. While they are quite rare, there -are- people like this in real life... So why would it not apply to Armageddon? I can see how things like this could be abused... But that's why we have a karma system. Also, give it it's drawbacks. Longer learning curves, lower initial skill level, et cetera. Maybe even put a lower cap on things.

I think it could have promise if the time and energy were spent coding it, and piecing it all together.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't quite get it.
But what I do get, it sounds good.

[Rhyden]

I'll have to agree with Jorlain on this one. Jack of all trades is rare. Special App. it if you want, play out your character to aquire a number of different skills would be an alternative method.

[EvilRoeSlade]

You're a pickpocket? Well, the reason that you don't fail 10 times out of 10 is because you've been doing it since you were six.

You're a warrior? Well, the reason you don't stab your own toe is not because of some "destiny" or "natural aptitude" but because you've been fighting since you were a kid. You probably had a small wooden sword as your only toy.

If that's your belief then how do you reconcile the fact that there is no difference between a 15 year old beginning warrior and a 50 year old one?

[wizturbo]

I really love this idea.  

I think we all have started a character, found a great niche...and been unable to fill it because of choosing the wrong guild.

I don't believe that your guild reflects years and years of practice, i think it reflects a natural aptitude, or...simply....a method of balancing the game.  In reality, if someone dedicates themselves, they can become fairly proficient at just about anything so long as they have the physical and mental capacity.  They might never become the best of the best, but they can become proficient.

Exclude all magickers from this and your set.

[Agent_137]

You're a pickpocket? Well, the reason that you don't fail 10 times out of 10 is because you've been doing it since you were six.

You're a warrior? Well, the reason you don't stab your own toe is not because of some "destiny" or "natural aptitude" but because you've been fighting since you were a kid. You probably had a small wooden sword as your only toy.

If that's your belief then how do you reconcile the fact that there is no difference between a 15 year old beginning warrior and a 50 year old one?

He's been taking the past 15 or so years off and is really rusty.

You have a better explanation for how some one is really good at certain things but not others?

Further, the "natural aptitude" excuse won't even solve your hypothetical test.

[Marauder Moe]

An interesting idea.  It might also help satisfy those who don't like the random stat generation.  I assume, though, that it wouldn't apply to magickers, sorcerors, and psionicists?

EDIT: Also, of course, there's the problem with guilds that come with languages.  But perhaps each guild should come with a tradeoff for branching (for lack of a better word) off the mundane guild.  A missing skill or something.  So at creation you can either pick a guild as normal, or pick the mundane guild knowing that you'll be missing a skill or two when you choose.

[Maybe42or54]

You're a pickpocket? Well, the reason that you don't fail 10 times out of 10 is because you've been doing it since you were six.

You're a warrior? Well, the reason you don't stab your own toe is not because of some "destiny" or "natural aptitude" but because you've been fighting since you were a kid. You probably had a small wooden sword as your only toy.

If that's your belief then how do you reconcile the fact that there is no difference between a 15 year old beginning warrior and a 50 year old one?

He's been taking the past 15 or so years off and is really rusty.

You have a better explanation for how some one is really good at certain things but not others?

Further, the "natural aptitude" excuse won't even solve your hypothetical test.

And to further Agent's post here. Ginka, *bows*, does an excellant job of doing a "Older the pc, higher the boost to wisdom" when they start out. Also lowers speed, so eh.
fifteen year old- good strength, EG agility, Poor Wisdom, good endruance.
50 year old- Good strength, poor agility, EG wisdom, good endurance.

That would be my guess to the stats they would get. And do not know if that is how it actually works.

[Seeker]

I really like the idea, and I could see some real IG benefits to having it.  I would except some inherent drawbacks to using this option as well.

When deciding on your guild, after playing as a "mundane" for awhile, I could see your new guild skills starting off even crappier than normal, but at least showing up on your skill list.  And, as I understand it, your starting guild -does- have an effect on your basic statistics, and you would lose that benefit by essentially starting "classless."

It is a big step away from the current set-up, but I would likely use it often.


Seeker

[wizturbo]

So far here is a list of the advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages:

1.  Flexibility, you can spend some time roleplaying, find a niche, and then fill it.  No more of that warrior who gets recruited by a master thief as an apprentice but can't learn how to steal a piece of cactuc candy.

2.  People won't be able to determine your guild right away.  You make a mundane, and might remain mundane for quite a while, before choosing a guild and embarking down that path of learning.

Disadvantages:

1.  Languages must be learned naturally.

2.  Skills all start at 0.

3.  Stat bonuses from guilds are not applied.

4.  Your very vulnerable until you choose a guild, because you've no combat skills.



To me, this seems like a fair tradeoff.  I'd love to see this implemented.  I'll offer bribes to push things along too.  Do Imm's like jellybeans and beer?

[Dracul]

Wizturbo...you spoke my words.

I'd say, guilds represent your natural aptitude, and morseso, what you've -been- doing...learning. Say like you said...for this 'mundane' guild, once a guild is chosen, starts have all the same caps, etc, but START shittier than they would.

[Xamminy]

First problem I see with this idea as it is forming: You can't have a skill at 0.  If you do, it means you have not the skill.  That's how it works.

Second, more a correction than anything else:

Generally, a person will grow stronger and tougher from adolescence until they hit their prime, gradually increasing their stamina and endurance. After this peak, they will begin to lose that strength and health slowly. Wisdom nearly peaks early in life and increases slowly until death, and agility peaks in adolescence and slowly decreases into old age.

This means that it's more like this...

age 15: str: BA, agil: EG, wis: BA, end: good
age 25: str: AA, agil: VG, wis: AA, end: VG
age 35: str: VG, agil: good, wis: Good, end: AA
age 45: str: AA, agil: ave, wis: VG, end: ave
age 55: str: BA, agil:BA, wis: EG, end: poor

Of course, the ages and values are completely pulled out of nowhere, but this's probably closer to how you should think of aging affecting your stats than Maybe42or54's representation previously.

[Seeker]

In the character generation screen when you are newly creating a character and are asked for her age, it clearly states that age does NOT currently affect statistics.

Seeker

[Xamminy]

Incorrect, Seeker.  It states that age does not affect skill levels.  Age DOES affect stats.

[flurry]

Yep, the blurb actually is (with emphasis added):

Note that your age should be reflected in your descriptions above and that
your stats will be affected by your age.

...

We strongly recommend that beginning players choose an age close
to the middle of the range, for this choice will give your character the
chance to survive more easily and consequently give you a chance to focus more
on roleplaying than on staying alive.  As of yet, skills are -not- affected by
age.

If this has changed recently, nevermind.

[Seeker]

And I am gratefully corrected.  Thank you.  

Seeker

[Dracul]

First problem I see with this idea as it is forming: You can't have a skill at 0.  If you do, it means you have not the skill.  That's how it works.

Xamminy...for those of us who don't know the code directly. 0 was simply a theoretical number

Say...warrior offense starts at 10% and can get up to 100%
Merchant offense starts at 2% and can get up to 15%

Mundane would start at 2%...and stay at then. Then...when the guild warrior was selected, the max would raise to 100%, but he would still be at 2 rather than 10..and have to train all that much.


Now, that was my take...agree?

[Xamminy]

Offense is a bad example, I think...

Let's consider something that not EVERYONE has, shall we?

Let's discuss the skill 'slashing weapon' for this.  You pick mundane guild and get NO weapon skills.  Pretend warriors would start with a 10% in that skill, upon picking the warrior guild, what percentage do you think it should be set to?  I mean, I would be okay with 1% being the level all skills not given by mundane.  Mundane should set all skills that everyone gets to the lowest level any other guild gets, with a maximum at the lowest equal to that of the lowest maximum of other guilds as well.  Any karma required guild would not be able to be switched to, nor would any guild disallowed by race.

I would be fine with this.  Sure, you can get in game and see what guild you'd like to be based on your stats or circumstances, but in exchange for that, you'd lose quite a bit of skill-level in most everything you could learn to do.

[Dracul]

Okay.

[Hexxaex]

One thing I notice about the comment of not having any combat skills:

One would have the basics of say, using a knife.  If you were like 7 years old, you might not have a clue on how to use it, but anybody even at the minimum age has an idea on how to stab someone or slice someone.  Same with spears, I've never used one, but I know how to pierce with it.  Same story with clubs and axes.

That's at least for the offensive skills.  Parrying and dodging are different stories, moreso for the former.

Edit:  Darn, people keep beating me.

[Dracul]

One thing I notice about the comment of not having any combat skills:

One would have the basics of say, using a knife.  If you were like 7 years old, you might not have a clue on how to use it, but anybody even at the minimum age has an idea on how to stab someone or slice someone.  Same with spears, I've never used one, but I know how to pierce with it.  Same story with clubs and axes.

That's at least for the offensive skills.  Parrying and dodging are different stories, moreso for the former.

Edit:  Darn, people keep beating me.

Well hey..yeah. You can stab someone. A merchant can stab someone, and so can a magicker. They can, and do, if in combat.  But you'd still get your ass kicked if you went toe to toe with a Marine.

(unless you have training, but that would make you not a merchan/magicker..) Although...if you were a magicker...be intresting...

[My 2 sids]

If I am to understand this concept correctly its saying that pcs would be able to wait for the opportunity to present itself (being offered a job lets say) before choosing a guild. What a great idea!  Arm has always stressed how choosing a guild shouldn't restrict a pc's occupation and this seems like a wonderful way to avoid confusion all together.  

I realize a PC's guild reflects their background, however I'd like to point out this is a double standard.  We don't allow background information to come into play with stats or skill levels so A.  we need to allow pcs to start out on different levels based on their personal background or B.  we can assume that a basic understanding of how to do things (cook, sew, hunt, tinker, fight, etc) belongs in all backgrounds (thus nullifying the argument of spending 'years of study').