RE: Dont post your death / remise / retirement

[Akaramu]

Let's say you retire your pc today, and tomorrow someone blames your enemy. Rp ensues. Isn't that a far better epitaph than a post?

The urge is understandable. But resist it.

That is one of the rules that I absolutely dont understand. If a PC retires, they are realistically still around. They are still doing their job, still talking to friends, they just turned into a VNPC because the player doesnt feel like manageing their IC life anymore.

Why do we have to pretend the PC is dead? This makes no sense to me. Its not realistic. Anyone... why?

I also disagree with PC leaders not being informed when one of their recruits, who they worked every day with, watched, teached regular lessons, and knew every day where the recruit was going, disappears. I mean... if you totally always know what a recruit is doing, and see them nearly every IC day, and they disappear and dont show up for an IC month. Why do we have to pretend that PC is still around as a VNPC? Why are the leaders not informed that they are GONE, disappeared?

I dont get it. At all.

Edit to add: Maybe this is why, as I could imagine, a bunch of players post their retirement. They dont know that staff disagrees with this, and like me, dont understand why.

[Anonymous]

I agree that someone who suddenly stops being around whether for death or retirement should be something players are alerted to and not left to wonder if it's just a lack of logging in, but I think that should be the immortals' discretion, not something done on the GDB or PM's/IM's.

[Ghost]

Posting Retirement, I dont see why it would be against the rule.

But posting death, is something else.  Your Sergeant will get you are missing but that does not mean you are dead.  You can be deserter, or kidnapped, or just a lazy ass not leaving home.

So death messages is a no.  But retirement, I dont see anything wrong with.

[Akaramu]

I agree that someone who suddenly stops being around whether for death or retirement should be something players are alerted to and not left to wonder if it's just a lack of logging in, but I think that should be the immortals' discretion, not something done on the GDB or PM's/IM's.

Yes, thats what I meant. It should be done privately from the imms to the people who would notice for sure, but I dont understand why it doesnt seem to be done at all.

Ghost, I absolutely agree with the rules against posting death. The whole question is about retirement only. I've even seen retirement posts on some clan boards that stayed there for everyone to see, on other clans the post was moved / deleted 5 minutes after posting with the message 'please dont do this'.

[Nidhogg]

Akaramu, your argument has a great deal of validity, and it makes sense.

Yet, I disagree with you, and more importantly, the policy runs counter to your reasoning.

Some reasons why include, that through use of an ooc means of communication you now know something about a pc that you have no ic means of knowing. When a pc is stored the clan leaders will tell you what they want you to know about the situation. If they tell you nothing it may be because they don't want you to know.

Also, it puts us on the slippery slope of sharing in game information on the boards, a purpose for which they were never intended.

[Akaramu]

Some reasons why include, that through use of an ooc means of communication you now know something about a pc that you have no ic means of knowing. When a pc is stored the clan leaders will tell you what they want you to know about the situation. If they tell you nothing it may be because they don't want you to know.

Also, it puts us on the slippery slope of sharing in game information on the boards, a purpose for which they were never intended.

When a clan player who was seen around all the time by everyone else in the clan retires, why would, realistically, their PCs not still see the now retired VNPC do their job? Why does a retired PC have to disappear for everyone they saw daily before, and why would only the leaders know this? I'm referring to very public and visible roles only here, not secret undercover ones.

I would understand if the clan leaders were informed, and signaled everyone else that the PC in question is still 'doing their job' as normal. But it seems that (in some cases?) not even leaders are informed about retirement. Why do we have to stir up artificial hysteria / panic over a VNPC who's still there?

Also, why are there retirement posts on some clan boards but not others?

I understand the policy, that it is there, and that it disagrees with me. But the WHY I dont get. I can see the reasoning behind the existance of rules normally. But this one is beyond me.

[jhunter]

Yeah, when in a leader position it really sucks to rp that someone is dead when in actuality the chracter exists virtually and you just don't know it because your not informed. I pretty much agree with what Ghost said entirely.
I'm with you on this one Akaramu, death and other things I can understand...but retirement? This one makes no sense to me either.

[Nidhogg]

Retirement posts are not allowed on any board. However, we understand and sympathize with those posting them. This accounts for why the rules is not more assiduously enforced. It is in effect across the board, (no pun intended.)

[Ghost]

When a clan player who was seen around all the time by everyone else in the clan retires, why would, realistically, their PCs not still see the now retired VNPC do their job? Why does a retired PC have to disappear for everyone they saw daily before, and why would only the leaders know this? I'm referring to very public and visible roles only here, not secret undercover ones.

Hmm... In some clans, not all the vNPCs are seen around.  For example, in Byn, retirement might mean you are changing your unit.  And those guys, have a much different schedule, and does not have overlapping chores/contracts etc.  The retired guy, can be considered even to movce the other branch of the clan (the other city-state)  Same and more complicated in Kurac.  A much more complicated reasoning in the Guild/Haruch Kemad.
And things like that.  Not all the vNPC guys are seen all the time.

But if you are a tribal, well.. That might mean something, since the number of people in the tribe is not much after all.

[Anonymous]

Retirement posts are not allowed on any board. However, we understand and sympathize with those posting them. This accounts for why the rules is not more assiduously enforced. It is in effect across the board, (no pun intended.)

I don't think there is any argument against that, Nidhogg, but I do think it would be cool if players were notified by clan immortals more often when someone who should be around virtually stops showing up at all (being dead) or someone who retires starts being around in virtual form only.

Edited to add: In the case of a PC dying, a word from an NPC superior or peer to the effect of 'Hey, have you seen So and So lately?' can lead to some fun roleplay as people might want to investigate the disappearance or theorize about what might have happened.  Did the PC die?  Did the PC abandon the house/tribe/family/city?  Stuff like that.

[Bestatte]

I think there's a matter of "process of elimination" being forgotten here.

If someone does -not- announce their retirement, IF retirement announcements were allowed, then it would be very easy to conclude that the PC is dead. It's like - here's a clue, a hint. I'm not retired. Hint hint hint clue clue clue you may now begin panic mode.

So - by not allowing retirement info to be posted, people who ARE dead - aren't making it known by "not posting their retirement."

I hope that makes sense to you, it does when I put it in words in my head but I'm not sure if it's coming out right in text.

It WOULD be a great idea though, if players of a clan are told by the staff, whether ICly or OOCly, that a character is no longer a PC but is still alive and well and "somewhere else."

So I'd say - leave it up to the staff to tell the clan members that a PC has simply "gone elsewhere" or has "been reassigned" or whatever.

If you're a clan leader and need to know about the whereabouts of another clan leader, it's probably good to ask your clan imm for a head's up. They might not tell you - or they might. Hopefully they'll respond, some way or another. After a RL month of not seeing an "important" PC, it just makes sense that IF they are retired, and not dead, that someone would know ICly - even if it's one of the clan NPCs (animated by an IMM).

[Akaramu]

Hmm... In some clans, not all the vNPCs are seen around.  For example, in Byn, retirement might mean you are changing your unit.

Why would a Bynner's friends not know if their friend is being moved to a new unit or around anywhere in the compound at all? Its not like the Byn consists of 1000 mutes who dont talk to each other.  :wink:

[Savak]

We're having semantics issues.

You, the player, should NOT be posting about your departure from playing your character, whether for death/retirement/storage/turning-into-an-alien.  Strictly speaking, this is OOC communication.

We, the staff, SHOULD be handling any -necessary- informing of other players or PC's on a case-by-case basis.  Sometimes we do this by allowing you, the player, to submit something for review (so it can have a more personal touch) prior to posting.  Sometimes we feel it's more appropriate to wait and see if other PC's ask, and tell them something only if it comes up.  Case-by-case.

Bottom line remains that you, the player, should not be posting about your departure from playing your character.  The problem we keep having is people spontaneously doing this of their own accord, rather than going through staff.  Most of these are well intentioned, but have no way of taking into account all of the variables, and readily falls down a slippery slope (Oh, she posted when she left, so I'll post since I got whacked..although maybe the person I contacted was in on it and hasn't told anyone..). At any rate, it is a trend we don't want to see, and don't want to confuse by allowing it in some circumstances and denying it in others.  Just go through your friendly neighborhood staffperson first.

Thanks,

-Savak

[Akaramu]

So - by not allowing retirement info to be posted, people who ARE dead - aren't making it known by "not posting their retirement."

They might not be playing for a while? Some people dont even post on clan forums at all, or very rarely.

[jhunter]

I think there's a matter of "process of elimination" being forgotten here.

If someone does -not- announce their retirement, IF retirement announcements were allowed, then it would be very easy to conclude that the PC is dead. It's like - here's a clue, a hint. I'm not retired. Hint hint hint clue clue clue you may now begin panic mode.

Your right, I had forgotten. That's reason enough for me, thanks Bestatte.

[Seeker]

(er.... others answered pretty clearly my questions and confusion)


Move along.  Nothing to see here.

[Delirium]

I have a feeling I know what sparked this, and while I tend to agree with Seeker, I suppose I can understand the immortal point of view as well, after reading this thread and the arguments posted here.

It honestly never crossed my mind that retirement posts could be used as a process of elimitation. On the flip side, since this is the case, I would definitely like to see the appropriate people kept well informed by the Imms when people do retire, since it could lead to unrealistic 'Hey, I haven't seen Joe, I wonder if he's dead', when ICly Joe's been around, puttering about in his workshop or whacking virtual recruits with his virtual sword - and we just didn't see him because he's virtual now.

[Armaddict]

In response to the rp resulting from not knowing about a retirement?

I think that's completely wrong.

If a noble character 'retires' to the estate, or a guard goes back home, or whatever the IC excuse is for the retirement...how are people going to know?

They -should- know, but now they don't, so they assume the enemy did it, when they really shouldn't -have- a reason to assume that, which results in all of this rp that is completely false and should have never happened.

So sure, not posting may spur rp.  But it's not going to be rp that furthers the game, because that rp will be illegitimate and completely out of place.

-Some- people should know when a character retires, so that they can tell everyone else.  This kind of big mistake 'to further rp' shouldn't happen.

Edited:  Meh, took out the bullshit, because it made it sound angry.  Sorry if the rest still does...I'm very hungover.

[Tamarin]

If you are so concerned with everyone knowing that your PC has retired, then shouldn't you arrange to let everyone know ICly before you give the staff the go-ahead to store your character?  I feel that it is your responsibility to go around to all your friends and say "look I'm leaving.  Have a nice life." or "look I'm being transferred.  I probably won't see you for a long, long time." or "look this lord Templar asked me to be his pleasure slave, so I forsee my ass hurting for the forseeable future so I won't be out walking much"...

...and THEN retire.  Don't retire, then post the reasons on an OOC board.

[Akaramu]

You, the player, should NOT be posting about your departure from playing your character, whether for death/retirement/storage/turning-into-an-alien.  Strictly speaking, this is OOC communication.

Then what about 'I'm busy IRL and will not be able to log on for a month' posts? Arent they sorta the same? And they seem to be legal. Not trying to be a pest, I'm just still confused.  

[Xygax]

If the IC reasoning for your character's absence needs to be known by the other players in the clan, your clan staff can handle that.  If they don't handle it and you think they should, e-mail them.  Do not post about your retirement/demise.

As for "vacations" from the MUD, I'd rather people didn't post these either, though to some degree it becomes a playability issue.  If you expect people to be around, and they're absent for a long time, you may begin to assume they're dead when you rightly shouldn't.  This is why we permit you to announce "breaks" like that.  Storage/death are much more permanent situations, and filtering that knowledge to the rest of the clan IS handled by the staff, not you.

-- X

[Xygax]

Oh.  And if you're perceiving that too many people OOCly are asking you OOCly why you're gone:  this may be an excellent sign that you're engaging in too much OOC coordination.  If that isn't the case, then it may also be a good sign that you have a "tell"...  a particular descriptive style, a favorite typo/misspelling, or a repetitive behavior that indicates to others who you are, OOCly.  If you can eliminate those "tells" by varying your characters more widely, and eliminate as much OOC coordination as possible, you will probably enjoy the game more.

-- X

[Akaramu]

If that isn't the case, then it may also be a good sign that you have a "tell"...  a particular descriptive style, a favorite typo/misspelling, or a repetitive behavior that indicates to others who you are, OOCly.  If you can eliminate those "tells" by varying your characters more widely,

Really, really wish I could do that. But for anyone not a native english speaker, it is near impossible to develop an unique style for each new character. Also, off-peak players are more easily recognized. You have no idea how much I envy the native english speakers / peak time players.

[Tamarin]

If you can't come up with a new way of playing a character, it has nothing to do with your ability to write within the confines of the English language.  It has everything to do with your inability to be creative.

I am not pointing fingers.

[Delirium]

If you can't come up with a new way of playing a character, it has nothing to do with your ability to write within the confines of the English language.  It has everything to do with your inability to be creative.

I am not pointing fingers.

Eh, I say bullshit.

Every one of my characters has had their own separate personality, mannerisms and background, and has led a very different life than the last.

However, I probably do have a recognizeable emoting style, despite the fact that the emotes are technically different. That's something most people can't get away from, and it doesn't make them uncreative, it makes them human.

[Krath]

If you can't come up with a new way of playing a character, it has nothing to do with your ability to write within the confines of the English language.  It has everything to do with your inability to be creative.

I am not pointing fingers.

Eh, I say bullshit.

Every one of my characters has had their own separate personality, mannerisms and background, and has led a very different life than the last.

However, I probably do have a recognizeable emoting style, despite the fact that the emotes are technically different. That's something most people can't get away from, and it doesn't make them uncreative, it makes them human.

I agree with the boss.

[Tamarin]

I really don't think this is what the thread is about at -all-.  It's supposed to be a discussion about whether or not it is ok to post your character's status on an OOC forum after his death/retirement.

I do, however, think that the last few posts should be discussed so I'm starting a new thread.

[sarahjc]

I think the staffs position on this, and I am just guessing what it would be, is that sometimes people retire and sometimes people die and it's not necessarily outside the house. The house may just tell you that this person is taking a more private roll or has moved on to other studies, when in fact that person's PC is in a ditch in the desert just past a really tall hill.

If everyone made a retirement notice who was going to be leaving... We would know for a fact that if Advisor Forgetful, from house Blow Hard didn't leave a retirement message. It is likely that she was killed somehow. And that is forcing an IC reaction to OOC information gained.  I think that is also why the staff took away the ability to see who was in your clan. People would look at the list and all of a sudden not see Tommy on there.  Then a day or two later people are in game saying, Hrm.. anyone seen Tommy around, I "think" something might have happened to him.  

If I am retiring a PC I tend to drop hints to those around me for a few days that I will not be around much anymore, and that I am taking a much less public role in things. Or if the case a non-leadership role, you could say that you are being transferred to a new area or something. Point being is that retirement isn't a sudden thing, you have a chance to meet with PC's in game and let them know that you are alright, you just won't be around.

I mean, if you weren't going to be working with a group of people that you saw ever day for 10 years, wouldn't you tell them? If you feel the need to announce your retirement, I would do so in game.

[flurry]

I may be the only one, but I have found that sometimes "Looking for a New Role" posts often have the same effect as posting about your PC's death/retirement.  If your clanmates know who you were playing, you're telling them that your PC is dead or retired.

There have been two or three times when I found out that way.   This is not meant to be a criticism of those players at all, and I may be the only one on the GDB who has the slightest problem with this.   My point is just that I find it similar to announcing your PC's death or retirement, although I realize that isn't the intention.

[sarahjc]

Yeah, that is sort of crap as well.

[Akaramu]

I mean, if you weren't going to be working with a group of people that you saw ever day for 10 years, wouldn't you tell them? If you feel the need to announce your retirement, I would do so in game.

Thats a great suggestion, and solves all the issues I had with unrealistic roleplay following an unannounced retirement.

[sarahjc]

I'm here to help.  :wink:

The pink rhino makes two little gun shaps with her fingers, then winks with a little clicking sound as she points at you.

[Tamarin]

I mean, if you weren't going to be working with a group of people that you saw ever day for 10 years, wouldn't you tell them? If you feel the need to announce your retirement, I would do so in game.

Thats a great suggestion, and solves all the issues I had with unrealistic roleplay following an unannounced retirement.

Ahem.

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:40 pm
I mean, if you weren't going to be working with a group of people that you saw ever day for 10 years, wouldn't you tell them? If you feel the need to announce your retirement, I would do so in game.

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:33 pm
If you are so concerned with everyone knowing that your PC has retired, then shouldn't you arrange to let everyone know ICly before you give the staff the go-ahead to store your character......and THEN retire.  

[Vanth]

Another thing to consider is that once you've made the decision to retire, you don't usually have any control over the PC from that point onward.  So, your imms may decide to do something with the PC, besides 'have them take a less active role in the House/clan'.

For example, what if a PC asked to retire, and there had been a huge plot to assassinate them, that was on the verge of going through.  In that case, maybe they'd be allowed to retire, but the clan imms might decide to play it as if the assassination attempt had been successful.

Another example, for a noble: maybe your imms decide to announce your PC was married off to another clan.  Or for an underling, they might announce that you've gone undercover to spy for them.

There's a lot of possibilities for roleplay that you might inadvertently quash if you announce your retirement, which is why the decision to announce anything should come from your clan imm.

None of the above examples are meant to be read into.

[Maybe42or54]

Another example, for a noble: maybe your imms decide to announce your PC was married off to another clan.  Or for an underling, they might announce that you've gone undercover to spy for them.

Aren't they the same things?
If you retire, tell people IC after working out an excuse with your clan Imms is my suggestion, but my expertise in this area is null and void since I have not retired.

[Seeker]

Well, announcing IC can have some problems as well.  Mainly, staying IC.

The fatally cursed young woman sends you a telepathic message:
  "Hi, Johnny.  I know that we usually meet every Nekrete, but I have had the oddest, nagging feeling about a falling meteor."

At your table, the scruffy, jiggly man says, in sirihish:
  "Yeah, I'm gonna be right here doing all the things I have always been doing.  Nothing is going to change.  Er.... except that I going to become invisible, stop talking forever, and never, ever, ever be available via the Way again.  Oddest thing.  But we'll still be tight.  Promise."

I guess the best thing, as always, is to try to get staff involved beforehand if necessary.

Seeker

[Sanvean]

Here's some feedback on why we have this rule.  There's a number of different factors that people have posted, but the best suggestion I've seen so far is that you announce it in game, which really makes sense.  Tell people you've been restationed, or that you're going home to take care of a sick aunt, or that you're running off to join the Tuluki Foreign Legion.

Why don't we want this sort of thing announced?  Here's some of the reasons:

1) You should not be able to magickally know that when Character X went down to Red Storm they got killed by a silt-flyer.  That closes down a lot of roleplay and possible plotlines.  If people are able to post retirements but not deaths on the board, as one person pointed out, people will be able to get information about whether that suddenly disappearing character died or not.

2) Sometimes deaths are not deaths, because there's a plotline where the murderer is trying to pretend the person is still alive.  There's all sorts of permutations here, including both staff-driven and player-driven plotlines.

3) Sometimes people use it as a way of politicking.  They retire in a huff over a perceived slight, and use the goodbye message as a way to try to pull people to their side, which is often not completely represented, and try to get other people to retire.  Or other people retire as a result.  This isn't a a great outcome and because we only discuss a player's behavior with that specific player, it sometimes ends up in misunderstandings or hard feelings.

4) People get confused and think that because someone posted their retirement, it's okay for them to post their death.  I know that everyone reading this thread will say "I would never make that mistake" and yes, that's true, but new players can, and will, make it.

At the same time, I think it's understandable to want to say goodbye to a group of people you've interacted with on a consistent basis for hours per week over a long period of time.  See my note about saying goodbye up there.

I'm not saying that everyone who posted a retirement message in the past is evil.  I know that this has been a grey area, and that's one of the reasons we've tried to solidify a policy on this and communicate it.  I've asked Brixius to add something about it to the posting guidelines.

Over the course of the last few years, the culture of the game has changed dramatically and I see people comparing notes on a regular basis about who they played, or are playing, etc.  Let me say right off the bat that I don't think this is good.  I think it hurts the game when you IM someone to find out who they played in the recent past, or when you announce on IRC who you're playing currently, or speculate who a prominent character is played by.  

I understand that it is a natural urge, and it's not something we police because that's impossible.  But I do want to remind people that it's something that overall the staff, including myself, doesn't think is a good idea.  To me, one of the main reasons to avoid it is because it's a slippery slope - someone starts by comparing notes on old characters and then slowly moves to IMing someone else that they just died, where the location is, and asking them to retrieve item X off the body.  Or you get a tribe of raiders coordinating things not in the game but via messenger or voice chat, and that's just plain not fair to other players.

So is this a rule that you can't communicate OOCly?  No.  I think such a rule is not feasible and unenforceable.  But I am communicating my perceptions of such actions and why, if I see your name coming up over and over as involved with OOC communications, it gives me pause.