Lets get rid of that pesky scan echo for the new year!

[kiddgoth]

Can someone please tell me why there is a echo when scan is used? It really makes no sense to me as to why its there..maybe someone can enlighten me. I really don't see anyone noticing if your looking about any harder than usual at any given time especially outside when your always alert for something. Its not like hi-tech sun-silts drop over your eyes or anything obvious. Why not let the players emote the situtation when it presents itself?  :idea:

[Bardex]

Especially since it doesn't echo constantly while it's running anyway. So, if you start scanning, everyone sees you "turning scan on." But no one sees your scan still being on 10 minutes later. So I agree.

[Cavus]

Scanning is something like "looking around attentively", right?So, if someone looks around carefully, I definitely realize him. So, no to turn the echo off. In fact what I didn't understand is why it stays turned on? Yes, it is usefull, but does it make sense? If it should stay open, I'd like to see an echo to room when I enter to a room. For example, ir I run, code says Joe runs. If I sneak, it says Joe moves stealthly.

If I keep scanning the rooms I walk in, I'd like to see something like "Joe arrived from south, looking around attentively".

Any thoughts?

[wizturbo]

I see scanning as ACTIVELY looking over the surroundings.  If your on guard duty, you might be scanning.  If your walking through a dark alley, you might be scanning.  Your out in the wilds looking for lurking gith, you might be scanning.  Scanning is something that anyone watching would notice; your alert and attentive.

If you scan, and it lasts 10 minutes longer, you should be emoting periodically or using a ldesc modification to make it clear that your character is actively watching his/her surroundings.  

Its not a magick spell that is always on for people who have the skill.  Its something you must actively choose to do in a given situation, and should be played as such.

[wizturbo]

Scanning is something like "looking around attentively", right?So, if someone looks around carefully, I definitely realize him. So, no to turn the echo off. In fact what I didn't understand is why it stays turned on? Yes, it is usefull, but does it make sense? If it should stay open, I'd like to see an echo to room when I enter to a room. For example, ir I run, code says Joe runs. If I sneak, it says Joe moves stealthly.

If I keep scanning the rooms I walk in, I'd like to see something like "Joe arrived from south, looking around attentively".

Any thoughts?

I completely agree with it being completely apparent that such and such is actively looking around.  Good roleplayers will emote this.

[Marauder Moe]

If its something people can see, it should echo.  Its not a magick spell that lets you suddenly see hidden people, you have to actively look around and search for people.

[Anonymous]

If its something people can see, it should echo.  Its not a magick spell that lets you suddenly see hidden people, you have to actively look around and search for people.

[Jordan Lee]

If its something people can see, it should echo. Its not a magick spell that lets you suddenly see hidden people, you have to actively look around and search for people.

Disagreed.

The Search skill is used to actively look around and search for things, as is the Forage skill.

Scan is merely representitive of a natural, heightened state of awareness. A combination of intuition and instinct and training developed by being exposed to certain situations. Much like the Listen skill.

Listen, too, used to have an echo wherein you saw someone put an ear to the ground or something. Scan is merely the optical equivalent of Listen

I, too, feel it should not force an echo.

Merely one player's opinion, of course.

[Dan]

No it isn't.

Scan doesn't represent natural eightened senses, that is rediculous. If that were the case then you wouldn't have to 'turn it on' at all, it would just always stay on.

It is on par with search and forage.

Search- Finding hidden places.
Forage- Finding hidden things.
Scan- Finding hidden people.

In each of these it requires an actual search to spot the place/thing/person. You don't just suddenly know.

[Jordan Lee]

This skill allows a keen use of observational techniques and good vision to spot invisible and hidden persons.

From the help files.

It says nothing about running around, flipping over boxes to find hidden folks. Nothing about prowling around with an Auspex Sensor in hand.

Good vision. Observational techniques.

These things are not necessarily evident to a third party observer. It is NOT like Forage or Search, but, as I said, rather more like Listen. Its an internalized skill requiring no interactivity with the outside world save for that of perception. As such, it should not be clearly evident when engaged.

Again, merely my opinion. But, imho, an opinion supported by the documentation.

[kiddgoth]

Dan Dan Dan my man...

Scan would have to be a heighten ability or every one would have it, only a few classes get it so I think it is rather something special. Now that being said, no one with the "no" point of view has shown me any reason why it should have an echo other than to warn others that you are looking about...does it mean I am crawling around on all fours looking under a carpet, I dont think so..my impression of the skill would be how keenly one takes in his surroundings using vision, hearing and smell to pick up a certain distrubance here a certain imperfection in the air over there I dont think spotting inviso peolpe would be someone lumbering around feeling the air for them wide eyed.

[wizturbo]

This skill allows a keen use of observational techniques and good vision to spot invisible and hidden persons.

From the help files.

It says nothing about running around, flipping over boxes to find hidden folks. Nothing about prowling around with an Auspex Sensor in hand.

Good vision. Observational techniques.

To scan an area, is to systematically examine your surroundings.  Thats the definition.  Systematically does not mean lounging around, it means actively and methodically searching.

If your in a dark alley way, that would mean specifically recognizing areas you cannot see and putting yourself in a position to see them.

If your in the middle of the desert, that would mean you systemically look over the area for someone, or something, on the prowl.

If your in an empty room with good lighting and no furniture...it means systematically sweeping the room with your eyes to notice any irregularities.  


Having this SKILL does not confer upon the person x-ray vision, nor does it give them nightvision goggles.  Nor does it allow them parascopic vision to look around corners or doorways.  What the SKILL does confer, is the ability to know *how* about systemically observing your surroundings so that you might detect someone trying to conceal themselves.  You have to actually do it in order to spot these concealed people.  Its not magick.  Just like you have to actually forage, in order to find things.  Just like you have to actually hunt, in order to find tracks.  They're not just out there for anyone to see, you have to look for them.

I suspect the reason for the duration effect of scan, is because of the nature of the skill.  With tracking, foraging and searching those things don't move.  If its there, its there, and its not going anywhere.  With hidden people however, they might move around, and if you had to scan constantly in order to spot someone when they come into your area, it would'nt be very useful now would it.  How much would guard duty suck, if you had to spam scan over and over in order to spot someone lurking nearby...what happens if within the 5 seconds your not typing someone creeps by.  If there isn't a duration, the skill would be pretty unrealistic.

[Zharal]

I totaly agree, there shouldn't be an echo... I mean sands, you notice me when Im checking out ya gal.

[Zharal]

Also I think the echo for the look comand needs to be removed, who cares who's looking at who, if it needs to be public emote it.

[Anonymous]

You're a thief.  You are shadowing someone.  They stop and invisi-scan, you have no way of knowing it.

As it stands now you notice that the person starts being actively interested in their surroundings and can take evasive action.

With scan as powerful a skill as it is let's not make it do more harm to sneaky types.  FYI, I've never played a good sneaky type and am not currently doing so, so I don't have a vested interest in this matter.

[kiddgoth]

CRW wrote

You're a thief. You are shadowing someone. They stop and invisi-scan, you have no way of knowing it.

So the only reason you are sayin it should be there is to warn the sneaky types to flee..yes? Just a question why should the sneaky types know that the one they are shadowing has scan? I mean the prey dosent know the one shadowing him has back-stab or pick pockets now does he..maybe we should all wear a echo above our heads flashing I am a "blah blah" I have scan so you might not want to follow me. I think it would be more fun to not know dosent that add to the excitement of the game?

Inkhore wrote

I totaly agree, there shouldn't be an echo... I mean sands, you notice me when Im checking out ya gal.

Well your tongue is hangin to the floor... :twisted:

[Armaddict]

Correct, we notice emotes.

[Anonymous]

So the only reason you are sayin it should be there is to warn the sneaky types to flee..yes? Just a question why should the sneaky types know that the one they are shadowing has scan? I mean the prey dosent know the one shadowing him has back-stab or pick pockets now does he..maybe we should all wear a echo above our heads flashing I am a "blah blah" I have scan so you might not want to follow me. I think it would be more fun to not know dosent that add to the excitement of the game?

Rewording an argument in an absurd fashion doesn't help the conversation.

To an assassin following someone not being able to see the scan would be just as painful as if there was no echo for drawing a weapon.

If the person stops and begins to look around, you would notice this and have a chance to move off.  The assassin doesn't know the skills or skill level of the person he or she is shadowing, so why you even brought that up is beyond me.

[Cuusardo]

You only see the scan echo once, and only the people you're in the room with at the time you hit enter for the command will see it.  No, it doesn't need to be taken out.

[xX_Cathedral_Xx]

I agree with Cuusardo.. There are many different situations where this arguement could lean either way to either being removed or being kept in. I believe it would be just an annoyance to even ask the Staff to remove the echo for the mere fact that you are irritated seeing the echo. Know what I'm saying?

[kiddgoth]

you all are missing the point...if u scan...the echo gives the other person a chance to do many things..first they get a warning the scan echo then they get to try something because of the abilities lag...u see what I am getting at? Picture this...your in the rinth walking around when someone invsio comes up to you and starts an rp which is kewl..now you got scan so u type scan and as soon as the echo flashes the other attacks or flees, or worse casts uber death spell..why because he got an advance warning. u see what I am sayin here. your talkin to each other anyways you can damn well bet I would be looking around thru the whole rp why would all of a sudden he notice it?

To CRW yes it could be painful to the sneaky types, and I agree with you on that point..so how about placing the echo after the delay?

[xX_Cathedral_Xx]

That actually wouldn't be a bad idea right there. I would not mind seeing the echo coming after the delay of the scan.. You bring up good points.. Interesting.

[Bestatte]

You're a thief.  You are shadowing someone.  They stop and invisi-scan, you have no way of knowing it.

As it stands now you notice that the person starts being actively interested in their surroundings and can take evasive action.

With scan as powerful a skill as it is let's not make it do more harm to sneaky types.  FYI, I've never played a good sneaky type and am not currently doing so, so I don't have a vested interest in this matter.

You're a thief. You are shadowing someone. They already have scan running, which they toggled on a half hour ago. You have no way of knowing it.

As it stands now you don't notice if someone already has it running if they took an active interest in their surroundings prior to your presence. In fact, they might be letting you shadow them in hopes of delivering you to their evil sorcerer mindbender bearded dwarven boss. And there's not a damned thing you can do about it because you have no way of knowing.

In fact - the person doing the scanning ALSO has no way of knowing if their scan is running or not, because there's no success echo and no indication via stat or score to tell him so.

Personally I like it that way, and I'd rather the entire room NOT see me intently scan the area.

There's another reason why that echo is pretty dumb - unfortunately it's either highly IC info, or it's a bug that can be easily exploited, or it's just a glitch in the code and not really a bug at all. In any case, I won't explain, but suffice it to say, the need to "concentrate" for some reason, and using the scan skill to do so makes for a rather silly situation to occur when the echo shows up.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

What's the picture painted in your mind's eye when you see people doing a scan?

I see someone who is looking intently at every shadowed corner and crook, sweeping them with his eyes and he will turn about just to look, or maybe being very aware of his surroundings that he will turn at every flitting shadow.

[Rhyden]

I voted yes, it should be removed, but would like to change it now.  

I read over the points and I think the scanning echo sould stay.

It just never really clicked with me when I voted that it's a constant action, not one that you get immidiate results

[Larrath]

Being naturally attentive doesn't mean you're going to be able to see that outline of a transparent figure crouching behind a table fifteen feet away, first of all.  Scanning does not reveal people who are naturally elusive, but rather people who use specific abilities, skills, in order to be hidden.
Shadowing someone can be a lot more complex than just walking by someone and hoping they don't notice.

Now, about stalking people and having time to react, I give you this scenario:
A trained and highly capable half-elf assassin is shadowing a rich commoner who walks around with no bodyguards.  He walks twenty paces behind the commoner and uses his height advantage to keep an eye on him.
Suddenly this commoner begins turning around and looking through the crowd of maybe a hundred people that's walking down the street.  Assuming that this half-elf is not a complete idiot, wouldn't he be able to see him just starting to look and then go the other way before he's noticed?


Another example: A burglar is hiding inside a noble's wardrobe and waiting to pop out when she and Lord Fancyskirts (Faleish, naturally) start getting their groove on.  A smart burglar would leave means to look out the wardrobe, maybe drilling a tiny hole or whatever.  This burglar would probably be able to notice that this noble is starting to look under the bed and inside the furniture and everywhere else, and could use the time to run away, jump out prematurely or use the Way and call for help.

Both of these are realistic scenarios, I think.  Scan is a little overpowered and pretty frustrating for people who don't get that skill as it is, and I don't think it should be made even stronger.  Also, let's not forget that people have been waiting for Listen to be toned down a little for a long while, as that skill is also unrealistically powerful and discriminating.