Weather Code

[Cavus]

Ok, I played ranger char since new weather code added, so I couldn't understand the difficulty of the new code. Ok, you are looking at south and can see one room away. In this situation, how one can go towards wrong direction? Let's say you are in the middle of the desert in real life, and looked at one direction, then start to move. You don't have to even look around. Close your eyes and walk to that direction. You can say that the things you saw when you write "look east" can be different than real east. But, if someone use "look east" and see the the place he wants to go even if it is not really east, he can just walk straight to go there. Even the dumpest man(I mean char, not player) can walk towards one direction he chose if he is able to see one room away. Just focuse your gaze and walk "straight". It can be hard in that storm, but if you are able to stand on the ground, and you are not flying in the storm, you -can- walk in that direction.

If I cannot see even one room away, then ok I couldn't walk in the direction I want.

This code can be understandable (but not for me) if the storms are rare, but there is no single time that you can live in clear sky. Tuluk is like that too.

I don't think it is good change. At least, you should make storm rarer if you want to keep code.

Note: These are my thoughts, and I might be wrong, but this is way I feel. I am posting my idea, but I know half of them will be at side of the new code.

Please back to old system.

Any thoughts?

[Lazloth]

Dis is de owd system.

[Bestatte]

It does seem a little wonky, but I don't really think the code is "bad." Just a little wonky.

If you need to justify it ICly, try this:

You set your sights on east, you know that's the direction you want to go, but the sand gets in your eyes and the wind whips at you really hard, and forces you to move in a different direction.

Now, being turned COMPLETELY around and making you go west, that doesn't make much sense at all. But that is more of a code headache than anything else, in my opinion. I doubt they'd be able to run a check on every single room, combine it with a check for each time someone tries to move in any given direction, and make sure they don't end up going in the opposite direction.

My biggest bone of contention with the new system is not being able to get into the city when you're right outside the gate. What I'd love to see, is for the storm code to ignore itself when you're one room away from any "inside" place (such as a cave, or a building, or a fort or encampment, or city).

That way, if you're one room away from (assumed) safety, you don't have to spend the next 20 minutes trying to actually get there.

Other than that, I'm pretty okay with the new system.

[Delirium]

1) If you're inside the city, you can check the weather outside by typing weather <direction>, for example,

>weather west

Meaning you don't have to step outside to see if it's storming.

2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but you will only get turned around if the storm is of 'blinding, biting sands' ferocity. I don't know about you, but I'd have a hard time keeping straight if I couldn't barely see for the sand in my eyes. If you're worried about getting lost in a worsening storm when you're already out in the desert, I recommend taking a friendly neighborhood ranger, or checking the weather in the direction you're headed before going that way.

[ashyom]

The only code change that was tweaked was fixing it so the rangers can move more easily through storms, while others won't.  This was implemented to fix an old bug, and make rangers more useful in inclement weather.  Aside from that, there wasn't any change to the weather code.

Seeing as Cavus was a ranger, I'd suggest emailing the mud with specific details; this may be a bug, or it could be just you ran into an unique situation (exceptions to this code change do exist).  Include as much information as you can about your experience - saying, "my ranger can't navigate through storms" doesn't really tell us much.  

As always, feedbacks are welcome, if anyone else has further ideas or constructive critique regarding the weather.
-Ashyom

[Cavus]

Ashyom, I was talking about my unawareness of the code change since I was a ranger. The one had trouble with storm is not a ranger right now. So, there is no bug.

[wizturbo]

I would like for the ability to move VERY slowly through a storm and increase your chances of not losing your direction.  I mean, give the movement like a 30 second lag time for each room or more for an increased chance of staying on course.  ICly this would consist of waiting for a brief break in the storm to get you bearings and then press on.  It would definitely hinder non-rangers, but give them enough to be able to function outside the city.

[Cavus]

Without modification, I believe all warrior/hunters have great problems while hunting. Storms are so so frequent. And, rangers are overpowered now. I am with wizturbo. There can be slow movement option. Or, this losing bearins can happen only if you are able to see your room but not the one room away.

Because if the problem is strong winds, rangers are also humans/half-elf/d-elves...., so they have same physical features with warriors. Strong winds have to prevent rangers to walk easily. But, main point here is being able to see one room away gives you thechance of focusing your gaze to one direction and walking towards it. LEt's say you can see the "north road" and you are at "sandy wastes". You focus your gaze to road and even if it is hard to walk in the storm you can go there. Maybe it take more time than the normal weather condition, but you can make it. How stupid can be a person to walk in opposite direction to his focus? One room is big enough. So, one can start walking in a direction. Wind makes his to walk a little right or left of his target, then he stops and turns to the right direction and continues in that direction. When he stopped he is at the right location. HE shouldn't see the road, or building or mountain in order to not have a sense of which way is east, or which way is west.

In addition Fancy Pants Joe wants to go towards a thing he saw, he doesn't want to go east or south or west. The compass is not important for him. Gates are in front of him, and he only want to put his step inside gates.

I have to admit that it is acceptable code, but IT NEEDS MODIFICATION.

I want to summuraize:

:arrow: LEt people to allow to walk towards a thing he can easily see.

:arrow: Don't allow them to walk correctly if they can only see the room they are in.

:arrow: In cities, I mean mostly narrow streets, one cannot lose his bearings in storm generally. It should be dark, or again visiblity is no more than the current room.

:arrow: Amount of storms causing lose of bearings should be decreased.



This is what I think.  Any thoughts?

[Xygax]

If you want to play a hunter who isn't inconvenienced by the weather, play a ranger.  Warrior/hunters still have their uses and strengths, but finding their way through a storm isn't one of them.  You are being forced to make a choice and accept a trade-off, and that is -intentional-, not an accident or a bug.

-- X

[Cavus]

If you want to play a hunter who isn't inconvenienced by the weather, play a ranger.  Warrior/hunters still have their uses and strengths, but finding their way through a storm isn't one of them.  You are being forced to make a choice and accept a trade-off, and that is -intentional-, not an accident or a bug.

-- X

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the other points also since you are the one coded this weather as far as I know.  My post was long and it doesn't contain only ranger-warrior comparison.

[Xygax]

Email me privately (xygax@armageddon.org and don't forget to copy mud@armageddon.org) with your specific points, please.

Thanks,

[Cavus]

Email me privately (xygax@armageddon.org and don't forget to copy mud@armageddon.org) with your specific points, please.

Thanks,

Ok, I will copy my previous post exactly even if I did not understand why you did not answer it here.

[joyofdiscord]

Even the dumpest man(I mean char, not player) can walk towards one direction he chose if he is able to see one room away. Just focuse your gaze and walk "straight". It can be hard in that storm, but if you are able to stand on the ground, and you are not flying in the storm, you -can- walk in that direction.

If I cannot see even one room away, then ok I couldn't walk in the direction I want.

I agree with some of the points in this thread, like being able to move into a gate you can see nearby, but I do want to throw in my own two cents: Navigating in the wilderness can be HARD.  It's easy to think you are walking "in a straight line" but slight deviations in your gait can send you off in circles so gradually you won't even notice, especially if the sun is very high so you can't use it as a compass.  I know this by experience.  I lived for a couple weeks in the National Forest around Williams, Arizona, a Grand Canyon town. Really scrubby, rocky land with short, gnarled trees.  Reminds me of the Scrub Plains or Grey Forest or something.  Well, I decided to take a super-short walk a ways out, then turn around and come right back.  I was camped near the fence, so even if I veered off enough to hit the fence at a different point, as long as I recognized the general area or could even SEE THE TOWN quite a ways past the fence, I would be fine.  But I didn't even manage that; that super-short walk turned into several hours wandering rocky terrain hopelessly until I stopped a person driving a truck down a faint path toward private land and he directed me toward the town, which I reckon must have been a couple miles away by now.

Now, I am definitely not super-wilderness man.  In fact, if I was an Arm char, I would probably be a Burglar/Jeweler (I don't break into homes, except my own sometimes, but I think I fit that skill set the closest... hmmm, this sounds like an Idle OOC thread to me.), so it makes sense for me to lose my way, not knowing all the ways to orient oneself well in the wilderness.

Now, in wide open plains where you could follow one distant landmark (which you KNOW) to another, that phenomenon might not be a problem.  In denser terrain, or in storms, the landmarks would have to be pretty close in order to follow, and you're still likely to end up veering off course just by picking a landmark a little more northward than another, etc.  

Real wilderness isn't actually divided into "rooms", with one in each cardinal direction.  A character with 1 room visiblity can't see four distinct regions and choose which one to wander into.  He sees 360 degrees of largely indistinct terrain which is quickly swallowed up by sand just a little ways out.  I think in these situations, it is very realistic to lose your way.  

It seems jerky to type 'e' and get blown back 'w', but that's because we use a map grid.  You aren't actually getting caught up in a big gust of wind and carried backwards.  Those wilderness squares are huge, if you try to go east and end up going west, it's because you got turned around (perhaps virtually turned around over the course of your last 6 leagues of travel).  And even turned around, you still magically know which way is east in order to try again, which seems pretty good to me.

The storm code seems pretty realistic, except for some minor issues like city gates, in my ever-so-humble opinion, and we ought to be happy our characters' magic internal compasses still function even way out in the Salt Flats or the Scrub Plans, etc.

[Xygax]

Email me privately (xygax@armageddon.org and don't forget to copy mud@armageddon.org) with your specific points, please.

Thanks,

Ok, I will copy my previous post exactly even if I did not understand why you did not answer it here.

I didn't answer it here because it wasn't very clearly written.  I was rather hoping you'd take the chance to elaborate/clarify your e-mail.  Too bad you didn't.

Thanks again,

[wizturbo]

I'll clarify exactly what change I think should be implemented, and i'm making it an IC change rather then a "code" change.

:idea: For villages/outposts/cities that are in areas that are often afflicted with vicious storms, storm-markers be built.  Basically, they're just big markers out in the sands that you can follow to the nearby shelter of the city/outpost/village.  These things would be extremely valuable to help trade, so it seems likely they'd already exist.  Codedly, the rooms with these markers would be flagged so you don't lose your bearings while following them.  Depending on numerous IC factors, some places will have many markers, while others will have few or none.

This would add to the game even further, by creating a few more landmarks out there for people to use.  It effectively creates choke-points for non-rangers too which might do a number of things, like attract a group of raiders to one of these markers, and use it as a staging point to waylay passersby.

[Dracul]

Well.
I like the code.


Rangers actually have a point now.

[Ghost]

Well.
I like the new code.

Corrected.

And I like the new code as well, because now city characters are really city characters.

[Angela Christine]

Part of the problem may be in how clearly you think you can see.  If the storm is so bad that you can only see one room away, then obviously you aren't seeing very clearly at all.  

I've never been in a sandstorm, but I have been in a snowstorm, and visibility in a storm changes from moment to moment.  You are squinting off into the distance, and then just for a moment you are able to make make out a landmark, or what you think looks like a landmark.  I might think I see a church steeple and so I know where I am and where I am going, but when I get three it wasn't the church I thought it was, instead it was a tall house, a buisness, or a completely different church.  Or you are squinting off into the distance and for a moment it clears enough for you to make out a landmark, but then the next gust of wind obscures it again, and you are left trying to move by dead reckoning.

The thing is that durring a storm you often can not lock your eyes onto a distant landmark and move directly towards it.  I spend most of my time hunched over, with my face concealed as much as possible, to avoid being flayed by blowing snow, grit or sand.   Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, glance, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, glance.  In wilderness you often can not or will not move directly toward the landmark even if you can see it.  There may be an obstruction between you and the target, so you have to move around the obstruction.  In the wilderness you tend to take the path of least resistance, rather than moving directly "as the crow flys".  It is easy to move off course in bad weather or rough terrain, frighteningly easy.

I have relatives up in northern Alberta, where bad winter storms and even blizards are relatively common (though perhaps not as common as Zalanthan sandstorms).  In the winter people string a stout rope between the house and the barn, even though the barn may be less than 40 metres (yards) from the house.  You have to visit the barn every day (or the animals die) so they use a rope as a handrail, a guide to move the short distance between the house and the barn, because in stormy weather people really do get lost even going that short distance.  These aren't city slickers, these are country folk that may have lived on that land for fourty years, making that exact same trip between the house and barn every day of their lives, and still they can get lost and then die of exposure walking accross the yard.  On of my great uncles died within 20 yards of his house, apparently he couldn't see it, and they didn't find his body in the snow drift until the spring melt a few months later.  Weather kills.

My point?  Hey, at least in Zalanthas if you get lost you won't freeze to death!

If the weather is so bad that you can barely see one room away and you can hardly move without getting turned around, then maybe it isn't good weather for hunting?  You certainly can't fire arrows in that weather.  The sand is stinging and biting your flesh, getting into your eyes, who wants to melee in conditions like that?  Then if you win the fight you are going to try to skin the beast while every orifice either of you has is filling with sand?  That's crazy!  Unless you are flat broke and on the verge of starvation, it probably doesn't make much sense to even try hunting in that kind of weather.


Angela Christine

[HardCarbon]

My only 'minor'  complaint is that its been storming for a LONG time (non stop so far as I can tell)  near Tuluk..  Its great for me (quick trips out for certain things)..   but I can't forage (no biggie at the moment but I imagine others are getting weary of it) ..