Analyze/Craft

[Ktavialt]

So I was thinking and I idea'd this in game. What you all think of being
able to analyze objects being sold by merchants? That way you wouldn't
need to buy something to see what it is made from so you can recreate
it through your crafting skills. Also, find out what you can craft from things
being sold by merchants.

In either case, I doubt, realistically, that the merchant wouldn't let you
examine an item before you decide to buy it, so it makes sense.

Anyways, thoughts?

- Ktavialt

[Bardex]

Could cause problems with some people who do nothing but go to merchants and type "analyze #1" "analyze #2" blahblah then go to the next merchant rinse repeat ad nauseum with no RP involved. Plus it takes away some of the "wow" factor when you discover something new.

But along the lines of your idea, maybe when you "view" an item, you could get a blurb saying "You think you might be able to make this." without the actual recipe. That way you'd be able to have an informed opinion of whether or not you want to spend the coins to buy it or save up to buy it at a later date, or even get some RP going to find someone else who has one and ask them about it.

So, the idea that inspired you to come up with the idea, I like and think that -a- solution (though not the one you came up with) would be great.

[Ktavialt]

Could cause problems with some people who do nothing but go to merchants and type "analyze #1" "analyze #2" blahblah then go to the next merchant rinse repeat ad nauseum with no RP involved. Plus it takes away some of the "wow" factor when you discover something new.

But it does make sense realistically that someone can do that, though
I'm not really trying to press this idea too much, only a thought that I
think would help.

But along the lines of your idea, maybe when you "view" an item, you could get a blurb saying "You think you might be able to make this." without the actual recipe. That way you'd be able to have an informed opinion of whether or not you want to spend the coins to buy it or save up to buy it at a later date, or even get some RP going to find someone else who has one and ask them about it.

So, the idea that inspired you to come up with the idea, I like and think that -a- solution (though not the one you came up with) would be great.

I'm cool with that, sounds fair.

[Disagreeing]

I disagree with both.  
Let's look at the second idea first.  The proposal is to miraculously reveal to you what this ingredient could be used to make.  RL, when I look at a piece of chicken bone, I don't automatically know that it can be used to make a knife, or a fork, or what have you.   All I know is it's a piece of bone that might possibly be useful.  

It's actually easier to backward-engineer something, which is what analyze is essentially.  I can look at a bone knife and go, "Hmm, that's bone and pieces of leather and glue."  Then I can try apply this information by making one myself.  Badly.  I have no carving skills.

The first idea, I sorta agree with.  It would definitely be nice to be able to view an item in a shopkeeper's inventory, and see what it could be made from.  However, you can usually figure that out by reading the item's main description.  Use common sense.  However, whether it's actually craftable, codewise, is unknown until I go and try make it.  

My explaination for the reason why I can't actually see the analyze results of a shopkeeper's inventory is that the shopkeepers won't let me get close enough to physically handle the items on display.   Being a moneygrubbing world Zalanthas is, that seems like a rational, smart precaution.  Who wants to take the risk of losing their inventory, their hard-earned money to thieves?

[Bestatte]

I think "Disagreeing" is confusing the topic, and my reply.

You're actually agreeing with both of us, and bringing up another issue altogether that is irrelevent to the discussion.

The topic is looking at a -finished product- in a merchant's list and having some general idea that yes, you might be able to figure out how to reproduce it.

The topic is -not- about looking at a raw material and having an idea of what you can do with it.

Edited to add: The shopkeeper most definitely -does- let you touch items. Try "view"ing a weapon, bow, article of clothing, or armor in any shop. In almost every case, you are testing its weight, checking the pull of the bowstring, or (theoretically) holding it against your body to check the fit.

[Xamminy]

Forgetting who we're logged in as at different times, Bestatte?  :wink:

Either taking an object by itself and being able to know you could make it or be able to analyze it to find out what to make it from or finding out you could make something seen in the shops into something...they all sound like good ideas to me, but the question is realism.

How much time and what is necessary to analyze an object to know that you could craft it or figure out what to craft it with?  How long would you have to look over an item to know you could craft it into something?  Is a shopkeeper really going to be happy with you for what you need to do to figure these things out or taking up all the time handling these items s/he could be selling to someone else that isn't just going to eye the wares s/he is trying to sell?

In some cases, I would think not.  For example, food.  Realistically, to analyze most food items, you would have to taste it to find out what was used in the creation.  Some food items you just need to look at them to know.  I know that this is an extreme, but I think a valid concern to bring up.  For most items, you wouldn't need to consume part of it, but may still need to take it apart and put it back together, and is a shopkeeper going to allow that either?

I'm really on the edge on this one.  Granted, it'd be nice not to have to waste 100 coins on that raw material you think you could make something with...or save the 750 coins on that dress so that you can learn how to make it.  Still, in many cases, I think you really would have to buy the item to be able to get a good enough look at it so that you could get the information necessary, even though, in others, it wouldn't be necessary.

[Bestatte]

Ugh. So much for trying to keep accounts seperate. Thanks for pointing it out to everyone; a PM -might- have solved the problem without making absolutely positive that everyone who reads this thread would know, without a doubt, what my other account name is.

Note to Xygax, Sanvean, et al: No, it wasn't intentional. I haven't needed to use that account in awhile, and using it suddenly has made me forget which one I'm logged in on at any given moment.

[Angela Christine]

I say no to shop analyzing.  Yes, it sucks to buy something and analyze it only to learn that it isn't a craftable item at all, but being able to analyze something in the shop to solve that problem would be like swatting a fly with a shotgun.

I've always thought that analyze usually involves partially dissassembling and reassembling the object to see how it works.  A seamstress may be able to duplicate a pattern without without completely tearing the seams out of the original garment, but she probably can't duplicate the pattern just by looking at the original garment for a minute or two.  A weapon maker might want to unwrap the leather grip to see how the hilt and blade are attatched underneath.  A cook will want to taste the dish and maybe mash a bit of it between his finger and thumb to examine the texture.  Other times, like a single izdari piece, a brief look might be enough.  

I think the current system is a reasonable comprimise.  You have to have the item in your possesion, which is inconvient at times.  However, analyze does not ever damage or destroy the item being studied, and it ought to at least part of the time.  I wouldn't like it if analyze _always_ destroyed the item being studied, but it would make sense if there was a 10-20% chance of a craftable item being destroyed by the analyze process (non-craftable items would be exempt, because they are outside the crafting loop).


AC

[Ktavialt]

How much time and what is necessary to analyze an object to know that you could craft it or figure out what to craft it with?  How long would you have to look over an item to know you could craft it into something?  Is a shopkeeper really going to be happy with you for what you need to do to figure these things out or taking up all the time handling these items s/he could be selling to someone else that isn't just going to eye the wares s/he is trying to sell?

Well you know, and I'm not really trying to press this idea since it isn't like
lives are depending on it, but that would be more on a case by case basis.
Some things show -very- easily what they're made from, and other things
(namely gourmet foods maybe) won't. Since it would be just plain death to
make everything a case by case basis where some things can't be and can
be analyzed in a merchant's shop, there would have to be a midway point
if anything like this was implemented.

I'd think the best thing is sorta like making it like barter code where the
merchants can get pissed off if you go too far (analyze too much and
don't buy anything). However, that'd be pretty code intensive I'd imagine
to replicate with barter code for a meager gain.

Anyways, my two cents, thought I'd throw out this idea anyways,

- Eric

[Bestatte]

Personally I'd be tickled pink if "view"ing would show only an additional two things:

1) Is it a craftable item at all?

2) Is it a craftable item that *I* might be capable of crafting (meaning, is it an item that would appear on the list of stuff I can craft, given my particular crafting skill(s)?)

So - if I was a jeweler, and I was trying to check out a bone choker in the   Kadian shop...

>You believe this was made by an individual. (meaning, it's craftable)

or

>This appears to be a proprietary design. (meaning, it isn't craftable)

and if it was the first....

>You believe you might be able to figure out how to make it. (meaning, if you purchased it and analyzed it, you might find the recipe - either now, or once you have a higher skill ability)

or

>It looks as though it isn't in your line of expertise (meaning it's probably armor, and not jewelry, in this particular case - or it's craftable, but only by a clanned Kadian crafter)

[Rhyden]

It really depends on which store you're analyzing merchandises from. A poorly-kept, dusty store full of rags and bags may allow you, but a swank, nobalty store of fine silk clothing may not. I mean, you might get dirt all over their valluable clothing! Yeesh!

[proxie]

I love the idea of having something added to 'view' so that you can tell if it's something you might be able to craft.  

If you want the recipe, then pony up and take the coin hit of buying, analyzing, and selling it back... Consider it sort of a fee to allow the study of the item to get a new idea.


Proxie

[Cavus]

I love the idea of having something added to 'view' so that you can tell if it's something you might be able to craft.  

If you want the recipe, then pony up and take the coin hit of buying, analyzing, and selling it back... Consider it sort of a fee to allow the study of the item to get a new idea.


Proxie

Agreed.