Clothing - is it diverse enough?

[John]

Clothing[/url]"]If a group comprised of both Northern and Southern people were to meet in middle, an observer would be able to recognize their original location simply studying their dress.

Do people think this is true?

I personally don't think it is and am wondering what could we do to make it true?

[wizturbo]

Sorta.  If you memorize the type of stuff sold in various shops, you can sorta assume they are from that city.

but diversity is always welcome

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

There are always the obvious give aways like obsidian breastplates or gurth shell leggings.

[Savak]

Seems to me that diversity blurs the line further; the more options people have, the more likely some mixing & matching will take place, or that an observer will not know all of them.  On the other hand, if we had a couple of outfits for the North and a couple for the South, it would all be so much simpler to differentiate.

The goal, however, is to create and stick to distinct "styles," and that players likewise stick to their relevant locational "style."  It's a developing thing, but does need players doing their part.

-Savak

[Vanth]

I try to stick to the clothing documentation guidelines in the Kadian shops, in order to create that sort of diversity.  You should notice differences in what types of goods they stock, from north to south.  

For example, Allanaki Kadian shops carry little to no items with linen, wood, tortoiseshell, or fur.  The styles are also different, as you'll see a lot more skin revealed by Kadian clothing in Tuluk.

However, there are always people who will pay to have things imported, or independent traders/crafters who'll bring other things into the PC marketplace.

[Pantoufle]

As a general rule, I think you can differentiate between northern and southern garb.  Almost every single item in game made from an animal hide indicates what creature it was made from.  Someone who strolls into the Gaj clad in goudra-hide bracers and duskhorn-hide leggings is clearly from "out of town".  Likewise, that fellow traipsing his way into the Sun King's Sanctuary wearing snakeskin boots with scrab-shell armor is either from the south or fancies southern garb.  Some of the sandcloth robes, djellabahs, etc. can be confused for any location, though, so it's not every single item.  But for the most part I think it's easy to differentiate northern attire from southern.

[My 2 sids]

I don't think any problem lies in our VAST amounts of clothing.  If we are finding that clothing diversity is becoming an issue I see two things that would help address the issue.  The first being uniforms.  With the vast number of PCs in houses and clans they are usually so loaded with clan affiliated items that they have no way of showing off any other types of clothing.  Uniforms would have to be changed to let people wear more items.   The second issue to address would be simply getting more people to read and follow the documentation on clothing; esp. how it pertains to each city.

[Cuusardo]

I really can't wrap my brain around wearing a breastplate made of glassy stone, especially in the desert.

[Rhyden]

I think this is utter and complete twink. If a character is wearing say, red sandcloth that can only be bought in say, Allanak, and another character tells them that they're obviously from Allanak because of their clothes, this is completely unrealistic and twinkish. Several of the materials used for making clothing can be used in just about every single city in the Known World. And just because some sandcloth is dyed red, it doesn't mean neccessarily it is from Allanak, it could have been purchased in Tuluk then dyed red, although this can't happen with our limited code. People shouldn't be able to tell (IC) where somebody got their clothes from knowledge of where the article of clothing is bought, unless it directly has some sort of insignia directly on the clothing.

-My idea for ammending this would be placing same articles of clothing in many different places so nobody knows where it came from.

[Anonymous]

I think this is utter and complete twink. If a character is wearing say, red sandcloth that can only be bought in say, Allanak, and another character tells them that they're obviously from Allanak because of their clothes, this is completely unrealistic and twinkish. Several of the materials used for making clothing can be used in just about every single city in the Known World. And just because some sandcloth is dyed red, it doesn't mean neccessarily it is from Allanak, it could have been purchased in Tuluk then dyed red, although this can't happen with our limited code. People shouldn't be able to tell (IC) where somebody got their clothes from knowledge of where the article of clothing is bought, unless it directly has some sort of insignia directly on the clothing.

Some guy back in the old west wearing Indian clothes would certainly have been subject to some derision even though the materials for those clothes are just as available to him.

I've never ICly had a PC who said something to anyone about their garb, but it's not only not-twinkish it's realistic to give some dude wearing Allanaki gear a hard time.  I'm not sure if red sandcloth is enough to warrant it, but there are plenty of things that would.

[Marauder Moe]

Its unrealistic (:?) and twinkish  (:shock:)  for people to judge others based on what they wear?  Huh?  Perhaps you could explain a bit more?

Its very clear in the docs (http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html) that Allanak and Tuluk have very different styles of clothing.  Though, hence the purpose of this post/project, that isn't very well reflected in the game's items.  I can't fathom why anyone would object to someone noticing that a wealthy merchant is wearing brightly-dyed cloth with geometric patterns and assuming he's from Allanak, or noticing skimpier garments with animal embroidery and asuming this person is from Tuluk.

[Xygax]

It is not unrealistic to recognize someone by their clothing, nor is it twinkish.  We deliberately diversify the clothing in the various regions for this -exact- reason, and as a staff we fight HARD to prevent areas from being homogenized in that way.

If you don't want people to think you're from Allanak, then don't dress like a 'Nakki.

[Savak]

I entirely agree with Xygax.

I'll add, however, that the preferred focus is on styles and materials, rather than "a green sandcloth shirt" you just KNOW is sold in Moscow versus "a jade sandcloth shirt" made by the evil Canadians.

Some of the clothing differences may be subtle, yes, but try to understand WHAT those differences are and WHY they're different, rather than anally deciding that "a ajfpO*(j bracer" is Northern while "a ajfp0*(j bracer" is Southern JUST because of the characters in the sdesc.

-Savak

[Rhyden]

I'm not saying that Tuluk and Allanak don't have completely different garb, but whether this 'red sandcloth halter' was made in Allanak and Tuluk would be completely unknown by most, wouldn't it? Because a simple sandcloth item can easily be made in either place then dyed therefore where it was made could not be known. Am I right?

[John]

I'm not saying that Tuluk and Allanak don't have completely different garb, but whether this 'red sandcloth halter' was made in Allanak and Tuluk would be completely unknown by most, wouldn't it? Because a simple sandcloth item can easily be made in either place then dyed therefore where it was made could not be known. Am I right?

People would be likely to believe it was made wherever the dye was from.

Also someone very very interested in clothing (such as a seamstress) would be able to look at an item and say "this is from Allanak" because nakkies tend to weave their cloth in a lighter form. Also, it would be very easy to know where the halter is from. Does it have a deep neckline? If so it's most likely from Tuluk.

Or take some generic silk pants. They would be very easy to know where they are from. Nakkie silk pants would be form fitting and would accentuate the curves of the body while Tuluki pants would be billowing

And yes, other posts have reminded me that it is possible to know where someone is from. It's very easy to know if an elf is a city-dweller and it's easy to know with some clothes where they're from. I'll see if I can OOCly notice the more subtle differences

[Vanth]

I'm not saying that Tuluk and Allanak don't have completely different garb, but whether this 'red sandcloth halter' was made in Allanak and Tuluk would be completely unknown by most, wouldn't it? Because a simple sandcloth item can easily be made in either place then dyed therefore where it was made could not be known. Am I right?

No, actually.  Allanakis would be unlikely to wear a halter because it shows too much skin.  It could have been *made* in Allanak, but it would be considered in poor taste there (to wear in public, anyway).

However, if you change that example to 'a red sandcloth shirt' then that example would make sense [Edit: that it could be from anywhere].  

[John]

However, if you change that example to 'a red sandcloth shirt' then that example would make sense [Edit: that it could be from anywhere].  

Only true if the description is very very simple. As I demonstrated earlier in my post, there are numerous keys to determining where something is made. If it has a collar then unless the collar's description is very minimal it'll be possible to tell

[Sacac's Ghost.]

Taken from Clothing files-allanak-http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html

While the body may be covered almost entirely, Allanaki fashion can nonetheless be provocative. Less bare flesh, yet more of the wearer's figure, is revealed. Hemlines are low and collars are high. Arms are sometimes left bare, though the lower a garment's neckline, the longer the sleeves.

[/quote]

[Vanth]

Taken from Clothing files-allanak-http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html

While the body may be covered almost entirely, Allanaki fashion can nonetheless be provocative. Less bare flesh, yet more of the wearer's figure, is revealed. Hemlines are low and collars are high. Arms are sometimes left bare, though the lower a garment's neckline, the longer the sleeves.

Yes.  While an Allanaki might leave their arms, or cleavage, or back bare, they wouldn't leave all 3 bare at the same time, as a halter does.

[Vanth]

However, if you change that example to 'a red sandcloth shirt' then that example would make sense [Edit: that it could be from anywhere].  

Only true if the description is very very simple. As I demonstrated earlier in my post, there are numerous keys to determining where something is made. If it has a collar then unless the collar's description is very minimal it'll be possible to tell

Definitely.  If a shirt is tight, long-sleeved, and high-collared, it's probably Nakki.  If it's looser, has short sleeves, and is a crop-top, it's probably Tuluki.

Tip for those who don't know: you can look at the mdesc of another character's items by typing something like 'look svelte's shirt' or 'l fancypants's pants'.

[sacac]

I'll copy and paste from the previously mentioned website.
Allanak-

For example, the modesty of one's attire is considered before comfort, despite the high temperatures citizens must deal with daily. Even among nobility, style is the priority. While the body may be covered almost entirely, Allanaki fashion can nonetheless be provocative. Less bare flesh, yet more of the wearer's figure, is revealed. Hemlines are low and collars are high. Arms are sometimes left bare, though the lower a garment's neckline, the longer the sleeves.

Even among nobility, comfort is sacrificed for frivolity and whimsy. In fact, the more radical and hindering the style, the more successful its reception. ...... sleeves whose cuffs extend past the fingertips do little to inconvenience someone accustomed to having all tasks performed by one's servants.

......loosely woven and light fabrics worn in layers are utilized as daily wear to ward off the worst of the sun and sands. Many types of overgarments are worn in long layers, protecting the flesh from the harsh rays of sunlight and the pervasive heat.

.....The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles....while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles. Another difference in commoner attire is that it tends to be looser, more comfortable, and less hindering, in order to be practical for everyday use.

Some clothes unique to Allanak include wrapped pants, long tunics, Kalasiris, long kilts, and many types of over-garbs, often worn in layers, are also commonly seen in the South. Green, particularly pale green, is generally considered an unlucky color, due to its associations with sorcery, and blue is perceived as a particularly somber color, associated with mourning and tears. Leatherwear is thought somewhat lower class, reserved for guards, hunters and other plebian military types.

.....However, the one staple of the Allanaki wardrobe is the color white. Trims may change, and colors may go in and out of style, but white is always in fashion.

Tuluk

...Soft lines, flashes of skin, and elaborate ornamentations characterize northern clothing. Styles are comfortable and at times revealing. The artistic community has made its mark on the rest of society, and fine, elaborate craftsmanship is prized.

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners' clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

Typical items... billowing pantaloons, low-cut shirts whose hems skim the waistline, and sarongs that show a flash of leg. Kilts and pteryges that leave the legs bare are also popular with men and women. Women's dresses are often made from sheer panels that reveal the skin beneath. Overgarbs' materials are lighter, thinner, and layered, to catch every breeze as well as ward off the harsh heat.

....Even the most risqué (noble or otherwise) would not run bare bottomed through the streets. A knee-length skirt is more likely to be worn with a short-sleeved shirt than a corset.

Reference Table for Easy Viewing
North
Fabric- Cotton, Linen, Sandcloth, Silk, Lace
Styles- Loose, Lower Necklines, Shorter Lengths
Prints- Florals, Animals, Batiks
Trims- Beadworks, Feathers, Semi-precious Gems

South
Fabric- Cotton, Sandcloth, Silk
Styles- Tight, Tailored, Tapered, Wrapped, Layered, High Necklines (little skin exposure)
Prints- Geometric, Stripes, or none
Trims- Embroidery, Bands of Solid Colors, Patterned Hems

[John]

The page itself has much more information though Including info on Cenyr and Tan Muarki clothing.

[Rhyden]

OMG!!! Forget about the halter bit, it was just the first article of clothing that came to mind, take something more general, a shirt. A red sandcloth shirt (Taking Vanth's example) Even though it's only codewise sold in Allanak, theres no way one could tell that a person is from Allanak by seeing that red shirt on them! This is my point, please stop making it more complicated than it already is...wait, here, a real-life example. A man walks into a room with a blue sweater on. Blue cotton, no logos, wording, tags nadda. Do you know where he bought that sweater, or even more where he comes from? NO!!!
Why would it be any different in the game "With very general clothing"???

-I'm done, deep breath. lol

[Anonymous]

Did you even bother to read the previous posts?

[John]

A man walks into a room with a blue sweater on. Blue cotton, no logos, wording, tags nadda. Do you know where he bought that sweater, or even more where he comes from? NO!!!
Why would it be any different in the game "With very general clothing"???

It isn't. And I honestly don't think anyone is advocating that. People have said, sure you might not know with one item, but add the items up and you'll work it out. Also, you should realise there is a difference between a simple piece of clothing and a simple description. You can have a VERY simple shirt, only worth a couple of 'sid, really really simple, and it be very obvious (to the right type of person) it is from Allanak. Because the description itself may not be simple.

[Rhyden]

Anonymous, I'm simply agreeing with Vanth, but the halter was just an example, I see it was a bad one now. Oh, and next time, actually reveal yourself when you make an accusation, or else arguing is no fun.  :twisted:

[Anonymous]

A man walks into a room with a blue sweater on. Blue cotton, no logos, wording, tags nadda. Do you know where he bought that sweater, or even more where he comes from? NO!!!
Why would it be any different in the game "With very general clothing"???

Logos? Wording? Tag? What about designs? Have you ever traveled to another part of the world? Sure, some types of clothing may seem ambiguous, while others -literally- scream at you, "I AM FROM ALLANAK, STUPID!" If you actually bothered to read the previous posts, you'd notice that they provide information on basic designs unique to city-states, gypsies, etc. YES! Even a VERY simple red cotton/sandcloth shirt could be assigned its origin just by examining it.

Oh, and next time, actually reveal yourself when you make an accusation, or else arguing is no fun.

1. I wasn't arguing nor accusing.
2. I was inquiring.
3. There's nothing to argue when you lack knowledge on the subject.

I suggest reading the help-files.

Sa'alam,

Dirr

[Rhyden]

Alright, Anonymous, had you bothered reading -my- post, you'd realize there is potential for an arguement here. There is no design, remember, this is a perfectly normaly weaved, blue sweater. There's absolutely no way of telling where it was made as it was hand-made like all other clothing in Zalanthas (I should hope). Now, rather than accusing me of not reading this thread again, think real long and real hard about what this looks like: Two sweaters, both blue, both from two sides of the world. Completely identical, but not made by the same person nor the in the same origin. How do you tell where it's made? You can't. Exactly like in Armageddon. If you have a simple, sandcloth shirt, it could have been made in Tuluk, it could have been made in Luirs, it could have been made in Allanak. Where it was made? You can't tell, bud. Cause it looks the same as any other. -MAYBE- you or another's character could tell by the way the sandcloth is weaved, or hemmed...but is this realistic? No! There you go, Anonymous. Read it over again if you're confused.

[Anonymous]

Go Rhyden...he does have a good point there. (Oh, this is another anonymous kank not the one arguing with Rhyden)

[sacac]

Two of the same -exact- "handmade" sweaters? Is there such a thing as exact, handmade items made by different people in a setting like this?

As Dirr was saying (Do you log in anymore, dirr?) Northern people make items with northern desgins, or hey, you know what? They copied or "ripped off" the southern design.
Who cares where its made? If it looks Allanaki, it's probably made in Allanak, if it looks Tuluki, it's probably made in Tuluk.

Sorry If I sound rude. But you two were arguing different points.

[Rhyden]

Here's my summarized point without all my stupid other-added crap:

-One in Zalanthas would find it very difficult to distinguish between two articles of similar-looking clothing (Unless they were say a master tailor or steamstress or whatever)

Thankyou

[Fiercecow]

This is a bit off-topic. But I was wondering if someone in allanak who has never been to tuluk would be able to easily identify tulukian clothing or vice versa? Or is information on clothing styles common knowledge?

[Angela Christine]

I think you could definately recognise it as "foreign" clothing, because it is unfamiliar and funny looking.  Identifying the region might be a bit trickier, it would depend on how sophisticated your character is.  Urban Tuluki (or nakki) cloathing would probably be correctly identified, because there are only two major cities in the world and if it isn't from your city it must be from the other one, right?  Wilderness or travelling clothes would be harder to pin down, since it is based as much on practicality as fashion.  Most people aren't going to wear tight, revealing or uncomfortable cloathing for overland travel, even if that is what they would normally wear.  If you are unfamiliar with tribal garb then you might mistake "tribe X" cloathing for that of the other city, because it is funny looking.  Additionally, a person wearing dominantly Red with White is much more likely to be from Tuluk than Allanak, a person mostly wearing green with black is much more likely to be from Allanak than Tuluk.


AC