City Gates

[Cenghiz]

*Cough* Maybe you don't know a few different IC threatens, eh? I don't think it would be closed for tembos or gortoks.

[Cavus]

*Cough* Maybe you don't know a few different IC threatens, eh? I don't think it would be closed for tembos or gortoks.

Yeah, it should be because they are still closed. But, only west gates.

[Ghost]

I think it is not about Tuluk's being weak to defend itself.  It is about playability.

It could be that the gates could stay open, but the guards could kill the one that brings the tembo, along with the beast.  Now that would be more of a problem on the PC terms would not it?

[Rhyden]

I think this topic has turned into something way too IC for the board.

For whatever reason the gates are closed, it's for IC purposes. Maybe the templars have something planned, maybe the guard, perhaps there is sign of battle, who knows?

Too IC for me.

[Bestatte]

If there's still a tembo just outside the western gate, maybe someone should get it to chase them away from the gate. If I was a gatekeeper and saw a threat right outside MY gate, then it would stay shut until the threat left. If it takes a few days, a month, a year, whatever.

Also don't forget - tembos aren't all created alike. A gate guard isn't gonna assume it's the tembo that only has two teeth left. It's not gonna assume anything. It's gonna think "Tembo. Bad thing. Stay out." Period.

Or - it could just be a bug in either the critter or gate code.

[Savak]

If you want to pass through closed gates, and can't open them yourself, try finding someone who can and convince them in some form or fashion.  Posting here about it does two things -- it says you're not trying very hard IC'ly, and it says you're not trying very hard OOC'ly.  If you think it's a code problem, use wish/bug or email staff directly.  If you think it's an IC problem, it should be raised IC'ly.  It really should hit the GDB more as a broad philosophical question, as some of the responses have drifted towards.

There -are- some circumstances in which the code neglects to tell the soldiers to re-open them if a threat outside vanishes in a certain way.  And yes, I see that as a problem that needs working on.  However, if there is a threat just outstide, the gates should generally close & remain so unless or until a ranking militiaperson/templar wants to act differently in a specific situation (or the threat departs).  If you're confident enough to handle it yourself, feel free to stay outside and do so, or find a different gate to leave by/enter.  There are several.

-Savak

[Rhyden]

What Savak said.

[Pantoufle]

I won't add to the ICness of this post, but I would like to say that I hope when city gates close for any lengthy period of time, whatever impact this would realistically have on an economy is then reflected in game.  If my PC cannot enter the city, then it's seriously unlikely that all the virtual trade caravans which regularly supply the city-states with food/water/supplies could either.  Wouldn't the temporary lack of trade cause a rise in prices, among other things?

This has nothing to do with whatever may or may not being happening in game at the moment (before any of you IC Fascists come marching in).  It's a point to consider on any given occasion where cities close their gates for days or weeks at a time, as has happened on numerous occasions.

[Maybe42or54]

Check the other gates?

[Savak]

On the other hand, the moderately witted caravan master will have both guards (to deal with a threat if it's still there) and militia contacts to open the gates for them (and funds to pay a bribe if necessary).  Loners are more likely to lack those resources, the wit, &/or the confidence to try.  So.. I don't think closing the gates from time to time is likely to have a significant economic impact on the city.

-Savak

[Cavus]

If you want to pass through closed gates, and can't open them yourself, try finding someone who can and convince them in some form or fashion.  Posting here about it does two things -- it says you're not trying very hard IC'ly, and it says you're not trying very hard OOC'ly.  If you think it's a code problem, use wish/bug or email staff directly.  If you think it's an IC problem, it should be raised IC'ly.  It really should hit the GDB more as a broad philosophical question, as some of the responses have drifted towards.

There -are- some circumstances in which the code neglects to tell the soldiers to re-open them if a threat outside vanishes in a certain way.  And yes, I see that as a problem that needs working on.  However, if there is a threat just outstide, the gates should generally close & remain so unless or until a ranking militiaperson/templar wants to act differently in a specific situation (or the threat departs).  If you're confident enough to handle it yourself, feel free to stay outside and do so, or find a different gate to leave by/enter.  There are several.

-Savak

I checked. I tried to inform staff via "wish all", too. Anyway, my problem was not about that particular time. I am talking in general. A tembo, or a halfling is causing the gates to close down, and only way to open is "wish all", or telling to Templar. "wish all" did not work because noone was available at that moment I guess.
Gates could stay open for those tiny threats. That's what I say.

[Adhira]

Actually Cavus, when you wished up there was still an aggressive npc at the gate. That's why the soldier said "Nuh uh buddy, I'm not opening this gate".  Once the aggressive was no lnoger a threat, the gate reopened.

If I was a soldier and had the choice of fighting the halfling or closing the gates till it goes away, I'm closing the gates.

[fearwig]

I have one thing to say about this, and it's not decisive--but I would like some opinions on it.

Zalanthas is clearly plagued by the sun, and the sun is surely the average commoner's worst enemy. As such, a great deal of the city's work seems to be done at night (which also benefits the playerbase, meaning there is an IC reason to be awake at either time).

You may not see as well at night, but you -do- have two moons to work by. You also have the benefit of the cool, which is better for work, especially in the deserts and flats.

However, I recognize that this does not necessarily argue against the closing of the gates--if I were the gith, I'd probably set raids for night, too, if only because it's cooler for the travel and you know your enemy will be less prepared to defend.

So, all in all, closing the gates at night probably hurts Allanaki production quite a lot. But... IC is IC, so this is all just small talk, where I'm concerned. Thoughts? Is night-time just as good a time for desert-work as day, or better?

[Ghost]

My second hunter, having similar thoughts, was hunting at nights.  But I think this does not apply in Zalanthas that much.

The sun is not actually your worst enemy.  It is the sand.  Due to some adaptation issues, and the loose sandcloth and a windy nature, the heat can be dealt with to some extend.  So it is not the heat that makes it hardest to survive.  It is the desert, the dried air and the sands.

At nights, there are two moons sometimes.  But there are times there is only one moon, and sometimes no moon.  And in even two moons case, you dont have a very clear visibility (that is why, we only see one league away when we look in a direction).  Now at this visibility, even some little wind can pick up the sands and obscure your vision, thus crippling all the activity.  So nights in Zalanthas, because of visibility issue, is not really the best time for activity.
Sun, makes the major heat, but heat is not the major trouble.

[Angela Christine]

I think a lot of middling prosperous city people probably do work into the night or through it.  Very poor people wouldn't, because they couldn't afford lights.  Fire based light (candles, oil lanterns, torches)  are inexpensive and can provide the visibility for delicate work, but they also produce heat which means the room will be even hotter tommorow at High Sun, because you are not allowing the room to cool down.  There are some cool light sources, but you would have to be doing very valuable work for it to be worthwhile to leave them lit for long periods.  Many people that don't have to keep steady shop hours might choose to work through Dawn, Early Morning, and Late Morning, then rest or do somthing less strenuous during High Sun and Early Afternoon the "heat of the day," and then go back to work for Late Afternoon, Dusk, and perhaps a little into Late at Night, then rest again through Late at night and Before Dawn because it is too bloody dark to do much.

Wilderness workers would be a different story.  Their work scheduals depend much more on the weather than on the our of the day.  In very hot, clear and bright weather they might take shelter for the entire afternoon to minimize water loss and the dangers of heat stroke, and then work through the night and the morning.  In normal, mildly sandy weather they might work through the day except for seeking shade for an hour around High Sun, because night time visiblity is too chancy to risk staying out.  In very windy, stormy weather they might only be able to go out for a couple hours in the morning, or they might not be able to go out at all for days at a time depending on what sort work they do.  If it is clear and windy some of the grebbers and gatherers will be out durring the day, but the hunters and spice sifters may be out of luck because of the high winds, and everyone will be cautious because high winds can quickly turn into a killing storm.

So, all in all, closing the gates at night probably hurts Allanaki production quite a lot.

Actually, I don't think it would hurt production much.  The gates are closed 1/3 of the time, but that doesn't prevent people from working inside the city or from working outside the city, it just prevents people from changing from inside work to outside work.  Very little production would actually require you to go back and forth through the gates.  If you want to do night work and there is good visiblility, then you stay out until dawn.

Farming might require near continuous movement of people and equpment, but the vast majority of the farmers live in the villages, not the main city.  Perhaps because of that need for movement and the tendency of farmers to work as long as there is light, the gates on the farm villages are open an hour later than the City, and don't close until full dark (so they are only closed 2/9 of the time).  Other workers who accidently miss the city gates but do not care to spend the night in the wilderness can take advantage of this, and spend the night in a village tavern.  (Deadly boring for most player since there are never any PCs around those taverns, but bearable for the characters).

Hunters, grebbers, miners and the like actually make up a tiny percentage of the population.  Most people that live in the walled city never want to leave its dubious safety for any reason.  Protecting the population at large from night attacks (or perhaps just saving money by needing fewer soldiers on duty to guard a closed gate) is probably worth more than the slight increase in production you would get from the few grebbers who want to go in and out all night long.

If it was a world, rather than a game, the Officer in charge of the gate might have some discretion on leaving the gate open a little later in fine weather.  I think that would be asking too much of NPC scripts though, you'd need something much closer to true artificial intelligence to make a decision like that based not only on weather, moon position and visibility, but also taking into account recent bandit activity, reports of gith uprisings, troublesome mages, recent beast sightings and other variable dangers.  Luckily this works for us as well as against us.  An intelligent gate commander might choose to close the gates durring the truely awful storms, the ones where visibility is at or near nil even durring the day, because you literally wouldn't see an army or a mek until it was inside the gates, and it must be really unpleasant to man the gates and towers in weather like that.  Nobody really wants to go out in that, but sometimes players can't wait and have to travel through a storm zone by dead rekoning to get back to the city or out of it.

Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

And by locking the gates, people can't hunt sot hat means that they are drinking instead!

[fearwig]

That's it--it's actually all the work of the ale lobby.

[Dead Hunter]

As the (now dead) hunter whose unfortunate death was both the cause and result of the west gates closing (leaving the tembo who chased me all the way to town to simply rip me to shreds), it was the second time I've seen that happen.  The gates remain closed while the tembo sits outside the gates for days.

The problem lies not in the gates not reopening but in the ridiculously short game-day.  If the game-day were extended, the same creature, which in reality is only out there for a few hours, would eventually leave and the gates would reopen within a more reasonable (and shorter) amount of time.

Two other RPI MUDs use a 6-hour game day, which means more daylight interaction before it's suddenly the next day and hence more time to get things done before it's dusk again.  Maybe Armageddon could benefit from a longer game-day as well.

Just a thought.

A Dead Hunter, digesting in a tembo's stomach

[EvilRoeSlade]

If I was a soldier and had the choice of fighting the halfling or closing the gates till it goes away, I'm closing the gates.

Readying his bow, the fresh young soldier exclaims to the grizzled captain in sirihish:
    "Captain!  There's a halfling at the gates!"

Spluttering and spitting out ale in mid-chug, the grizzled captain turns to the fresh young soldier.

Eyes narrowed, the grizzled captain says to the fresh young soldier, in sirihish:
    "And just what do you think YOU'RE doing?"

Nocking an arrow, the fresh young soldier says, in sirihish:
    "Awaiting orders to fire sir."

Outraged, the grizzled captain exclaims in sirihish:
    "Put that down you idiot!  What you think you can just shoot an arrow through its chest and end its life just like that?!"

Shaking his head in disgust, the grizzled captain says, in sirihish:
    "Real smart Dave.  Snipe it from a distance and make it fall under a hail of arrows, at no risk to you whatsoever."

Clearing his throat, the fresh young soldier says, in sirihish:
    "Exactly what I was thinking.  And my name's not-"

Hands balled into fists, the grizzled captain shouts, in sirihish:
    "FOOL WE ARE IN TULUK!  WE MUST LOVE IT AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT, FOR WE ARE SUBTLE!"

*ahem*

The current script in Tuluk makes no sense to me.  I've SEEN scripts in which an agressive NPC outside the gates is shot with an arrow coming from the walls or guard tower.  I don't see why there can't be one in Tuluk also.

[Savak]

There can be.  But there isn't, intentionally.  (Sort of.)

Part of the reason the gates are closed is to discourage people from leading things back to be killed so they can then be looted.  If the gates are open or closed when they are quickly killed by soldiers is moot, with regard to that particular issue, as is whether they are killed in melee combat or ranged combat.

That said, one of the updates I WOULD like to figure out is for these critters to EVENTUALLY be dealt with (killed or run off) by soldiers, but only after a reasonably extended time period, in order to allow any PC's in the vicinity to either respond or be eaten.  The carcass would then also be dealt with by the soldiers, and the gates re-opened.

In other words, there are both IC and OOC reasons behind why the gates around Tuluk are handled the way they are.

-Savak

[Anonymous]

I have a feeling it would take a while for an NPC to be killed by arrows.  Plenty of time for the interloper to be eaten.

Closing the gates just to kill PCs seems to be ICly biting off your hand to spite your face.  When the gates are closed and there is an unharmed aggro wandering around just outside of them, it kind of puts a damper on important things.  Like... I dunno, trade caravans.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The above post was mine.  I'm not trying to be two people.

[Angela Christine]

There are other gates people can use to enter, unless the critter alert causes the soldiers at all three working gates to close them all.  Having to use a south gate instead of the west gate and then navigate through half the city to get to the comercial district is mildly inconvient for traders, but it isn't going to drive trade to a standstill.

Angela Christine

[Sokotra]

Problem is, a single aggressive creature - in my opinion, isn't cause for the gates to be closed.  Now if there's a pack of gortok or more than just a couple of nasties, then that's another story.  In fact, the guards at the gate would probably rejoice in actually having something to do other than herd people in and out of the gates.  I understand the problem with people 'purposely' leading aggros to the gates just to get them killed so they can loot/skin them.  And I see the recent code or whatever, for the gates to be closed at such times, as an understandable, although temporary, solution to the problem.  

I'm not sure what a more realistic solution to the problem would be, other than making the code more complicated, which will probably be quite a painful undertaking... i.e. making the gate guards recognize people that are doing this continuously.  Probably not a feasible solution... so, then the immortals could deal with these people as they have done in the past.  Unfortunately, I've seen cases where someone else has actually been leading aggros in all day, then an innocent person comes along and either does it once on purpose or accidentally and they end up meeting the wrath of the Imm or gate guards instead of the person that had actually been doing the deed.

In conclusion... there's many problems in attempting to fix this problem.  I'd say, for now, just extend the code slightly instead of getting too complicated.  Simply have the code allow the gates to stay open if there is just one or two aggro beasts, other than a mek, bahamet, or whatever other enormous scary things that might be in the area, in such cases the gates would close for just one.  More than 1 or 2 small aggros, close gates.  (old chinese lady voice) AND THEN... heh.. to make it a little more realistic/functional - put something in the code that says within a certain period of time (a day or two), if the gate guards have to engage in combat with an aggro more than once or twice in the 2-day period, then the gates will start closing at the first sign of a single aggro.  
'
(old chinese lady voice again)  AND THEN... okay, nevermind... this might be getting too complicated already.  But there's a few ideas, anyway.

My point being, as I said(and actually being a 'gate guard' myself a time or two, RL -and- in game), the guards probably LIKE a LITTLE action every now and then, as long as they don't get seriously injured.  That's the jist of it.. actually coding it to reflect the realism of this is another story.  I'm sure things could and likely will be 'tWeAkEd' in the future. :lol: