Encouraging roleplay

[Mook]

Funny thing about our li'l world... It's encouraged that people here focus on role-playing realistically - yet codedly, we are still rewarded for skill-spamming, as per the ancient Diku code from a decade ago..  I can't help thinking that it would be nice to reward the player who's focusing on emoting his surroundings to life and building a more interesting story/personality for his character, rather than giving the coded rewards to his spam-hunting newbie counterpart.  Thus I wonder..  how might we go about this?
   How about moving the system's automatic skill increases towards a dependence on emotes/thoughts/dialogue, rather than simple skill spamming?  While emoting/thinking does not a good role-player make, IMHO, it is a drastically more accurate measure than skill-use.  I'd be very interested in hearing other people's opinion on this, and here are a few thoughts I'll just include here on how such a system might work:
-   Emotes/thinks/says/psi's could generate a low number of invisible 'points' to be collected in an invisible pool, or however it would be easiest to code.  These 'points' could be capped per 15 mins/half hour or however long the imm's like, and when the pool fills, it could increase a few skills a small amount.
-   Repetition of the same emote would be not only blatant abuse of code, and quite punishable, but could simply be disallowed by the code – identical or very similar emotes would generate no reward.
-   As said above, this generation of points could be capped per unit time, to keep folks from running off into the sunset with their furious speed typing speeds.
-   Wisdom could affect the ease with which a character generates these unseen increases.
-   Different skills could require higher/lower amounts of points to advance, such as    
     backstab and pick.  This would reflect the difficulty involved with practicing those    
     skills, and quite frankly, the playability-derived desire to keep those skills  
     uncommon.
-   The current skill-use system could be kept as well, and dumbed down to increase  
     skills at a lower rate, in balance with the emote/thinking/psi'ing/saying/talking-
     derived skill increases.
-   People would be expected to have IC explanations as to how they're increasing  
         their skills.
-   The increase could be allocated to a few chosen skills, selected with some 'change'  
         based command by the player.  
-   These increases, IMHO should be kept to a low rate.. because that's realistic.
   
This would be a far-from-perfect system, but I feel it would do a lot to encourage creative scene-building over skill-spamming.


Thoughts/flames/bagels?

Disclaimer:  A system similar this operates on at least one other mud I know of, so I'm not claiming authorship or anything.

[Tamarin]

I definitely think that emoting needs to be taken more into account for skill gains than it already is.

Personally, if emotes were somehow given more weight than coded actions, oh boy would I ever enjoy this game a whole lot more.

The problem is, certain things require the code for failure reasons.  You need the code to calculate how good you are at something so that the appropriate response from the world occurs.  For example, crafting, hunting, stealing, etc.  If you suck at hunting, but emote being really awesome at it, it doesn't mean the bahamet is going to run away instead of biting off you head.

Maybe some clever combination of emote/code is needed, I suppose.

[Mook]

Tamarin said:

If you suck at hunting, but emote being really awesome at it, it doesn't mean the bahamet is going to run away instead of biting off you head.

Totally agree.  But if a hunter is doing more beside simply e,e,e,kill scrab,e,e, - lets say he's adding some simple descriptions of his actions/surroundings, or mebbe talking to his fellow hunters/running away from vnpc raiders or whathaveyou.. I feel the later case deserves advancement of his skills more than does the first, even though the first will probably spend more time using his coded skills.

Rewards for animating your character would simply be an alternate way to 'advance' skill-wise, just as others do by using their skills with or without accompanying roleplay.

[Koala]

Mook wrote:

How about moving the system's automatic skill increases towards a dependence on emotes/thoughts/dialogue, rather than simple skill spamming?

Indeed this is an interesting idea but from my past experience with Arm, I think that true roleplaying is almost nothing to do with emote/think commands. For sure those commands are very helpfull to create a living environmet for players and staff members and I try to use those as often as I can. But, I believe that -truely- roleplaying a character in a proper manner is something different then that, which you cannot value it with the amount of emote/think commands you use.

I agree with your standing point and want to see some modifications but I don't think that we can (significantly) increase the level of roleplaying with the change you suggested. Indeed I may be wrong but this is my stand-point.

[Mar]

I see one problem with this. It will be much easier to get this "points" sitting in the tavern talking to friends during peak-hour time than make (even cool) solo-rp during "dead time". Is it fair?

I am against the idea. Good RPing is not only about emote/think. Your character can bable a lot and s/he still can be "boring" person without own personality.

Just a thought.

M.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

If you want to increase skills and stats through roleplaying, my suggestion is that you read...

HELP SKILL_INCREASES

HELP STAT_INCREASES

Otherwise, I'm against this. Perhaps I read wrong, but if I sit in a tavern doing flowery emotes all day, and have my gain set to my combat skills, how does that make any logical sense?

Also, how does a silent type, who rarely emotes, as it's not part of the PC's nature to be active or vocal gain from this, while still playing their character very well to their history?

I don't see what's so bad about the current system. People who spam skills are quite often found and corrected on their ways by the staff, so I've personally not really noticed a problem with this.

[Gaare]

The most twinky, skills abusing player I saw in ARM was really good at using emotes, psi and that kind of commands.

IMO if one is a twinkish player then that clearly means he is good at abusing the codes with ignoring real RP so he will probably would find a way to trick the new code suggested above.

[Armaddict]

So....sit in a training room and emote doing katas and shit for hours on end...and you'll be better than people who hunt for a living, or spend lots of time training -with someone else-?

I appreciate the movement towards 'more role-play, less hack'n slash', but you guys are taking it overboard.

[Bestatte]

I think a very big point is being missed here: There already is direct reward for roleplay, that no amount of skills increases or code-use (or abuse) can provide. And that's the karma system.

There are only two ways you can earn the *privilege* of playing a wider variety of classes. 1) Special app it, wait up to a month or longer, and hope you don't get rejected and have to start over again, and 2) roleplay consistently, roleplay well, and if all else fails (after a couple of RL months with not even a single d'elf karma point), e-mail mud and ask them to peek in on your roleplay in case you were somehow overlooked in error or if there's something you can do to improve your RP to earn that privilege.

The reward for roleplay is more roleplay. The more you attract others to your character through your roleplay, the more characters available for you to interact with, and more plotlines to get involved in. I am personally very much against any system which would automatically reward roleplay, because I've played games that do, and seen how utterly ridiculous the results can be.

It's one of the main reasons I play Arm, and not those other games anymore.

[Delirium]

To add a few opinions:

a) This is not a MUSH. This is a MUD. We will always need code. Abuse of code is bad. Code is not.

b) Emotes and thinks do not RP make.

think j00 sux0r hax0r!!1!!

emote does a triple-flip over %elf head and stabs sideways, slaying ~j00

c) In fact, a few of the most stellar RPers I've met - insofar as character depth, development, and consistancy - use emotes somewhat sparingly, but when they do, it definitely counts. How is this worse than someone that emotes and thinks every minute, but is shallow, repetitive, and perhaps downright twinkish?

d) How are you to discern which skill should be increased? It strikes me as difficult to ensure that the activity you're emoting is the one that gets the skill benefit.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I fail to see how EMOTEing taking a piss should make me a better cook.
Anyways, if you want some more roleplay added to your character's IC training, I suggest finding a mentor in game, and make use of that delicous little command, "teach".

[John]

I see one problem with this. It will be much easier to get this "points" sitting in the tavern talking to friends during peak-hour time than make (even cool) solo-rp during "dead time".

And this is why all of us off-peak players hate this idea

if all else fails (after a couple of RL months with not even a single d'elf karma point), e-mail mud and ask them to peek in on your roleplay

I think it's actually a year Yes, most people probably get D-Elf Karma after a couple of months, but it's better to ask the staff after a year last I heard.

-   Repetition of the same emote would be not only blatant abuse of code, and quite punishable

I'm very unimaginative when it comes to combat emotes, but you can bet your ass I do my best. I'm glad to see my best will be considered abuse

Everyone else has said what I was going to. I won't quote them without saying anything

[Stroker]

Great idea, but only if certain emotes counted for certain skills.
Example:
If someone practices weapons training and their skills go up in that weapon/skill/etc. Unfortunately, this type of distinction would be impossible to code (unless coding certain words, which would defeat the entire point anyways). On the plus side, this already DOES occur in game. For instance, if you're solo-emoting, practicing weapon/cooking/mud sexing, and an Imm sees you and approves of it; then, yes, you might receive some increase in a skill.

Again, great idea and it's already partially implemented.

Semper Pax

[Cenghiz]

Emotes already raise your skills.. They even make you branch. Just a few days ago I was bored, solo-emoting my a** off before using a skill. I used the skill, then before logging off, I checked my skills. There was a new thing. From my past experiences I'm sure I needed much more coded study on that skill to branch, but it instantly did.

The most twinky, skills abusing player I saw in ARM was really good at using emotes, psi and that kind of commands.

Thank you Gaare, I'm flattered...

Repetition of the same emote would be not only blatant abuse of code, and quite punishable, but could simply be disallowed by the code – identical or very similar emotes would generate no reward.

Uh? Usually my hunter characters hunt for one IC day, then the other day they find a place to cook the meat, tan the hide etc. If they're lucky, they have about 3-4 pieces of meat. And I confess, I get bored after a couple emoted cooking/tanning and use my "up" button to quickly resend the emotes then spend the rest of time with thinks, other emotes etc. I don't think this is an abuse.
By the way; I didn't like the idea at all.

[jhunter]

I think a very big point is being missed here: There already is direct reward for roleplay, that no amount of skills increases or code-use (or abuse) can provide. And that's the karma system.

What she said.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Good roleplaying is it's own reward.

[Stroker]

Good roleplaying is it's own reward.

I think you might be thinking of money. Good roleplaying is only a reward when others adhere to the same quality as yourself, otherwise it's just like writing a book..... that you cannot publish.

Semper Pax

[JollyGreenGiant]

I can't figure out which word to replace with "money" and make the sentence work...

[Tamarin]

Try "nothing"

[Manhattan]

I can't figure out which word to replace with "money" and make the sentence work...

There are countless replacement words... like "Sex." Heh.

[JollyGreenGiant]

My point was, in any case, that if you're playing Armageddon, you're here for the RP environment.  You don't need tangible rewards for roleplaying, good roleplaying should be the default mindset you strive for just because you enjoy the way the game is played.  It's nice to get a pat on the back now and then, and if you play well, you'll get it.  Personally, I find a well-played scene, event, or series of events to be quite satisfying in and of themselves, especially when other good roleplayers are involved.  Hence the comment, good roleplaying is its own reward.

[Agent_137]

No.

For reasons already mentioned.

[SRB]

No.

For reasons already mentioned.

What reasons? Dirr's?

[Agent_137]

No.

For reasons already mentioned.

What reasons? Dirr's?

What difference does it make? Krath, let me look back...


Mar
Hicksville Hoochie
Gaare
Armaddict
Bestatte
Delirium
FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit
John
NOT Dirr, he's practically for it.
JollyGreenGiant

[SRB]

That's just it. I didn't know what you were saying 'no' to, wether it be the original poster's thought, or the current one being mulled over.

[Agent_137]

ah, yes, I see how my post wasn't clear.

[Krath]

To add a few opinions:

a) This is not a MUSH. This is a MUD. We will always need code. Abuse of code is bad. Code is not.

b) Emotes and thinks do not RP make.

think j00 sux0r hax0r!!1!!

emote does a triple-flip over %elf head and stabs sideways, slaying ~j00

c) In fact, a few of the most stellar RPers I've met - insofar as character depth, development, and consistancy - use emotes somewhat sparingly, but when they do, it definitely counts. How is this worse than someone that emotes and thinks every minute, but is shallow, repetitive, and perhaps downright twinkish?

d) How are you to discern which skill should be increased? It strikes me as difficult to ensure that the activity you're emoting is the one that gets the skill benefit.

What the boss said. That and if you want to get your skills up by emoting you can always
log your emotie training sessions and send them into the mud.

[Stroker]

especially when other good roleplayers are involved.

Hence my comment. If you're just here to role-play your own character -and -could care less about how well others role-play around you, then you might as well start writing a novel.

NOT Dirr, he's practically for it.

I never said I was for the idea. I merely commended the author on a worthy attempt to encourage role-play.


Sa'alam