Black Clothing, something I'd like to discuss

[Nidhogg]

Today while monitoring a few players I noticed that there is an awful lot of black sandcloth clothing. Far more than white. Which struck me as strange and unrealistic. In the city, for fashion, it may or may not matter as much. For the rich it certainly shouldn't matter as much. But many pc's in desert clothing seem to gravitate toward black.

Does your pc wear black? Why? There are far more black items of clothing for hunting and desert travel than white, if only because black sells better. There could of course be more white and less black, but if people only bought the black that wouldn't change anything.

We could code a thirst or stamina penalty to black clothings, but people might not notice, or ignore it. Also, it would be a pain in the behind to apply it to all the black clothing in game, not to mention time consuming.

Ultimately, do you as players see an issue? Is this worth pursuing in the name of realism?

[Delirium]

I once tried to get an all-white outfit with a past character, and I couldn't put one together. Now that struck me as very silly.

Decking yourself out in all black to go dune hopping is kinda up there with wearing bone and chitin for me, but I'm not sure if I see it as a huge issue. I'm willing to ignore it for the sake of gameplay. I guess people just like their characters to look 'cool'.

'Dude, check me out, I'm all decked out in black, I'm definitely badass.'

That said, I would love to see more white items available, and would be willing to help. In fact, I have a suggestion: for every item there is in black, make a clone of it in white. Obviously that could take quite a while, but if it's done slowly and steadily, with the help of player submissions when they see a black item, it could be done over a period of time. I'd like to see white be Zalanthas' black. If that makes sense.

[Whira's Luck]

I don't know, I've had no problem outfitting a pc in all white desert-wear recently. Maybe it's something that should be looked into in the cities?

[Lazloth]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3755

[Bestatte]

Black clothing is easier to hide in. Especially out at night, or in the shadows of the bushes in the scrub, or whatever. That's rp-wise of course - I don't have any knowledge of black clothing aiding the hide skill.

If you want a mekillot to notice you from 3 leagues away you'd stand out a lot more wearing white than you would black. Unless you're in the middle of broad daylight on a sand dune. Then black would stand out more I guess.

Personally I don't have my characters wearing too much black. It's too stark against their flawless pearly-white skin <grin>

[Ghost]

As a lover of black and having a black wearing PC, I think I should have a few things about this:)

In my newbier times, I had been caring about the color of the outfit the character has.  (Well, not as zealously as pursuing all the white)  But later, as I saw the black more in the shops, and people, I thought these guys have found something that does make the color less important: Sandcloth.

If you check the shop of the desert outfit in Red Storm, you will notice three major colors:  Red, brown and black.  These colors physically, are the colors that absorb the rays with the highest energy in the visible spectrum (though it depends on te tone of the color when Brown is the question).  There is no white.

The color of the Allanakki militia dustcloak?  It is black.

These backed up my assumption.

Also I watched several movies that involved desert since then and I noticed, actually, black is not the rarest color in the desert outfit.  True, white is also common, but people use nearly as much black gear as they do white.  This also backed up my assumption.

So I thought, maybe sandcloth really is a kind of stuff that deflects the sun rays so good that color does not make much difference.  And that is why I went on picking up my favorite color.

Though, I might be wrong on my assumption.  And in that case, I will as well, give a better thought on color.

[Agent_137]

clanned chars are stuck with the uniform.

I ask you, why in the hellpits are most uniforms black or dark?

[ShaLeah]

Black traps heat.
Black leather in a hot environment will make you sweat your balls off not to mention it would cause burns to the touch after prolonged exposure. Ever sit in a car after it's been sitting in the hot summer heat and get the back of your thighs burnt to hell and back?
Black silk in a hot environment will make the silk stick to your skin. Silk traps heat too.

It's unrealistic to wear black all the time in a scalding hot desert planet but it's so prevalent (yes, I use it too) that making it scarce would be a feat and a half, maybe two feats.


People would opt for cool colors - white, beige, pale yellows, pinks, silver and gold, baby blues. They'd layer thing after thing (which we do in game anyway cause we're wear_loc whores) but -most- of those things would be really thin, even sheer.

Desert gear should match the color of the desert, we need more sand-red items. Maybe we can bribe Xygax into wasting a week making a program that will change the word BLACK in any wearable thing to Sand Dune Red.   :shock:

[Dracul]

We're all secretly Goth.

Eh, I'd say I do it with some chars because of the nightime/stealth attitudes. Although I really don't, so *shrug*.

It might just be a strange and unacknowledged quirk of zalanthian culture.

[Marauder Moe]

clanned chars are stuck with the uniform.

I ask you, why in the hellpits are most uniforms black or dark?

Everyone knows black (and other dark colors) are sexy.  Its a recruiting aide.  If you don't believe me, dig up some old House Tenneshi special app availability posts.  

[Angela Christine]

We could code a thirst or stamina penalty to black clothings, but people might not notice, or ignore it. Also, it would be a pain in the behind to apply it to all the black clothing in game, not to mention time consuming.

I think expanding the items that have stamina bonuses and penalties is the way to go.  Twink that I am, I'm more likely to hang onto a cloak that gives me a +10 maximum stamina bonus than one with no bonus or a penalty, at least if I'm playing a character for whom stamina is important.  Ok, it isn't total twinkery since I assume a stamina bonus means that the item is comfortable to move around in, and a penalty means that it is uncomfortable to move around in.

Dark or heavy fabrics could have a 1-10 stamina penalty.  That may seem small, but it adds up if you have a matching outfit.  Likewise very heavy armor items like obsidian breastplates should have a stamina penalty, because even for a half-giant who may have the strenght to avoid an encumberance penalty, it is still going to be hot and uncomfortable.  

Likewise light and light-coloured (not necessarily white) items may give a small bonus.  This could include many heavily-used and tattered items, since they are well-broken in (for comfort) and thinner than a similar "new" item.  New boots are stiff and blistery, old boots look like crap but are often much more comfortable.  

Together that would encourage desert wanderers to dress like Laurence of Arabia, while city folk could still dress like Zorro.  It could also encourage people to wear tattered and raggedy looking clothing if it is appropriate to their character, rather than having everyone in "new-looking" items just because those give the best bonuses.


Also, put some non-dark clothes on rinth NPCs.  Come on, somebody has to be wearing brown or dust coloured cloaks up there, right?  Rinthers often get some of their clothes off the corpses of their neighbours, which leads to everyone  up there wearing the infamous Dark Hooded Cloak.


AC

[sjanimal]

I'm not really partial either way, and can be happy with whatever you decide.  However I had a couple of insights about this that I thought were worth sharing.


My PC wears either black or brown.  They wear those colors to fit in.  If other people wore more diversity in terms of clothing, so would I.  Sometimes my character wears blue or red for a nice social occaision, or when he wants to be noticed.  

Speaking sociallly, it states in the docs that the color green is considered unlucky and associated with mages.  My character would never wear green.  I think if any color would be viewed as "badassed" I think green would.  Black by contrast would be considered rather common and socially acceptable.

And speaking practically, black abas are very practical for desert travel.  Several real life Arabic tribes favor black robes.  Some physicists did a study on this, because they couldn't figure out why the hell anyone (much less experienced desert people) would wear black robes in the desert.  But the answer turns out to be that the robes do INDEED heat faster, and when the hot air near the bottom of the robes rises it creates convection currents that feel like a breeze moving up your body.  So for survival purposes, black robes are fine.

And even if they did have an effect on water loss, the effect would be minimal, in other words negligible.  I don't think coding a 1% difference would affect game play, and I think if you coded much more than 5% or so it would be very unrealistic.

I suppose that's why I'm not much opinionated -- I'll just wear what everyone else wears, and am content to trust other people's role playing decisions.

[Mar]

Hmm, I -myself- have no trouble with black colour. Why? Because I am sure people do wear black colour even in the desert.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/galleries/womenbehindtheveil/photo2.html

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/africa/gallery_8.html

[Koala]

As a rule of thumb I always check the description of the item that I am going to buy.. In most of the cases I even don't look at the color of it.. If the desc says it is comfortable and if it suits to my characters' desires then I don't hesitate buying it..

Since today I haven't think about the color choice for desert travelling or hunting.. I saw this post, then read some and find this link that Lazloth gave at the other post with similar topic.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mblackcool.html

As it says that black clothing is a better choice then white if there is wind around.. But if there is no wind then definetely white is better then black but in Zalanthas I think finding a good weather (without wind) is quite difficult.. This is quite striking news for me.. I didn't know that this is the case . Maybe this explains why people in Red Storm choose darker colors for their clothes..

[Anonymous]

Wait, if it is such a big deal for people to constantly wear black to look badass, why is it all right that Salarr abruptly went from orange to black and "steel" grey?  I don't think I've ever seen anything to explain how that change occurred ICly or why.  If imms are adding black, you have to expect some players to get the wrong impression.

[Mr.Camel]

I'm not sure, but I think the old Salarr uniform had an orange-crest, but was assumed to be all orange at first glance because it was the only color in the sdesc.

On topic, I really don't see anything wrong with black. It may not be the best color for heat, but some people can't afford to choose, which is a touch I like.

[Anonymous]

Heh. How long is your nice white desert robe going to stay that way in, say, Allanak? Black doesn't stain!

[Anonymous]

AD: Travel Light, Travel Invisible - The Whiran Way.

Contact the local whiran near YOU.

[ShaLeah]

Wait, if it is such a big deal for people to constantly wear black to look badass, why is it all right that Salarr abruptly went from orange to black and "steel" grey?  I don't think I've ever seen anything to explain how that change occurred ICly or why.  If imms are adding black, you have to expect some players to get the wrong impression.

I'm not sure, but I think the old Salarr uniform had an orange-crest, but was assumed to be all orange at first glance because it was the only color in the sdesc.

On topic, I really don't see anything wrong with black. It may not be the best color for heat, but some people can't afford to choose, which is a touch I like.

I initiated the movement to remove the orange from Salarr when I played a silver mutant former whore turned Salarri merchant to piss off the wife of a Salarri blood.
In the Salarri documents it mentioned that the Salarr crest/symbol was an obsidian shield with a steel sword over it. There was no mention of orage anywhere and I couldn't find a reference as to why it was put there nor whom. It just didn't make sense for a House whose representation to the known world was an obsidian shield and a steel sword to have orange for no reason... not to mention it was ugly as hell.  

It's my fault, mea culpa, and when I see orange banded eq I feel like typoing it.  :twisted:

[ShaLeah]

Heh. How long is your nice white desert robe going to stay that way in, say, Allanak? Black doesn't stain!

That's a good point.  Not only is black slimming but it hides sweat stains and dirt well... except... it's red colored dirt!

[ShaLeah]

Moved to the new derailment thread!

We now return you to our regularly scheduled topic...

[Angela Christine]

Speaking sociallly, it states in the docs that the color green is considered unlucky and associated with mages.  My character would never wear green.  I think if any color would be viewed as "badassed" I think green would.  Black by contrast would be considered rather common and socially acceptable.

Light green, not all green.  Jade green is a-ok, so is dark green.

And speaking practically, black abas are very practical for desert travel.  Several real life Arabic tribes favor black robes.  Some physicists did a study on this, because they couldn't figure out why the hell anyone (much less experienced desert people) would wear black robes in the desert.  But the answer turns out to be that the robes do INDEED heat faster, and when the hot air near the bottom of the robes rises it creates convection currents that feel like a breeze moving up your body.  So for survival purposes, black robes are fine.  

That may work for loose black abas, but it doesn't explain black leather pants.  


As for sneakiness, I think black is over-rated.  Mottled colours blend into shadows better than a man-shaped black blob.  I had two cats, brothers, one was all black and the other was a brown striped tabby.  The black one was pretty easy to find day or night, the mottled brown tabby was a feckin' ghost -- he could disappear in shadows, in shrubbery, in tall grass, lying down in the sand, in general he was very hard to spot when he didn't want to be seen (so I got him a brightly coloured collar with a bell on it, because I'm mean).


Black is nice when you are trying to co-ordinate an outfit though, because black goes with everything.  

Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

Black is nice when you are trying to co-ordinate an outfit though, because black goes with everything.

If you can beat the snot out of anyone, you can wear anything you want and no one will question. I remember I used to wear ritual feathers and humans made fun of me - until I beat the shit out of one of them - he stopped making fun of me. Of course, this is RL, I don't know how it works in-game.

[Cenghiz]

Funny... real funny... Every badass feeling char of mine preferred white, thinking "I'm powerful enough to survive in the desert being clearly visible and I'm rich enough to clean even quick-staining white clothes."

[sjanimal]

Good points, Angela Christine, I hadn't thought of that.

Although I will say that for my part, I seldom wear more than one or two light pieces of armor.  I view people who walk around in full armor all the time as twinks, noobs, unstylish, mind-numbingly paranoid or perhaps on their way to go kill somebody.  In fact, when my PC sees someone wearing too much armor, that's usually a signal to him that one way or another, it's a person to be avoided.

[jhunter]

That may work for loose black abas, but it doesn't explain black leather pants.

No shit, I shudder to think of the ball-sweat BBQ I'd have going on wearing black leather pants in a place like Zalanthas.

:pulls off his black leather pants, steam escaping into the air about him and a relieved sigh drifting from his lips.

:pours his waterskin over his crotch with a groan.

say Feck yeah....alot better...

[sjanimal]

Although I have gone dancing for hours in real life wearing leather pants without any major problems at crowded, smoke-filled places.

I'd like to apologize to any users of this GDB who didn't want to picture me in leather pants.

[Ix Machina]

ShaLeah has most of it correct.

The original colors to Salarr before they were changed were black, (steel) grey and orange, though the only orange that appeared was a splash on the crest. The old cloaks also were grey, not orange.

Also, the majority of the salarr items were distinctly tailored to men, possibly from old builders or whoever created them.

If you want to know how/why they were changed, find out ICly as this was an IC change that was taken care of within the game.

OOCly, however, the insignia and cloaks had orange dropped and were updated to better reflect a more androgynous look to the house and the people who worked for it.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Hmm. Never thought about it. Silly me.
I generally try to have my characters wear what they would wear, which means they put on whatever they think gives them an advantage, or otherwise just dress in their favorite color. I knew that dark colors were hotter than light colors, but I never thought it would make that big a difference to a Zalanthan, with their crazy body chemistry and whatnot.
Anyways, I think this is a change that could be brought about ICly, instead of getting all up in the code with it. For example...
Nobles could make white robes the new 'in' thing... show off how rich you are by wearing something briliantly, dazzingly white and still managing to keep it clean.
If you play a military leader-type character, you could start reprimanding your troops for wearing black leather because it decreases performance in the field (according to you).
If you play a merchant type character, you could stop offering black clothing and armor because all those angry VNPCs wanted a refund when your full S&M gear costume deluxe made them pass out.
Or, at the very least, you could mention it in the clothing and fashion docs.
I'd also like to point out that if a person wore a white aba or cloak, they could also probably wear something dark and leathery underneath with minimal discomfort. Never tried it myself, but if light absorption is what makes dark clothing so hot, and you wear light clothing over it, then that should eliminate the problem, right?
It might make for some interesting EMOTEs, too...

Code Select Expand

PEMOTE A strong gust of wind blows up ~aba, revealing me ~thong.
Blinking several times before speaking, the white-haired aid says, in sirihish:
"I... I had no idea my Chosen Lord was into that kind of thing."

[marko]

As noted - black in a loose piece of clothing actually assists in keeping the person wearing it cool.

Black as a tight piece of clothing makes you boil.

Clothing with layers and and an outer layer of black is the most effective at keeping the individual cool - so long as the layers are very porous and allow air to move through them.

[ShaLeah]

OOCly, however, the insignia and cloaks had orange dropped and were updated to better reflect a more androgynous look to the house and the people who worked for it.

I asked Xygax long before the changes were actually started, before you joined the house as an Immortal, I believe. I can only speak for what -I- know, which is that the docs didn't mention why the orange was in and the request to remove the orange was aesthetic from my point of view. It was ugly

I don't know what reasons the House gave for the change IC'ly, however.

[X-D]

Being forever lazy and far too busy with my upcoming vacation, I'm not going to read the rest of the thread or hunt down the many links you can easily find on desert clothing etc.

But, if you do the research, you will find that loose (IE Zalanthan sandcloth garments/robes/cloaks ETC) dark/black clothing is actually prefered by most desert dwelling peoples...those that wear clothes at least. Usually an outer layer of black and an inner layer of light colors.
Now, why you might ask, well, I'll tell you, Yes, black does not reflect light energy, therefor it heats up, but in the heating, the air around it also heats, Now, this cools a person in two main ways. The first is that when air heats, it expands, becomes less dense then the air around it, so, it has to float, or travel upward. This actually causes a breeze of sorts and does so -inside- the clothing. The second thing is that hotter air can hold more moisture...and well, what is the main method of cooling for a human...you guessed it, sweat, in order for sweat to work as cooling it has to evaporate, when it does the molecules carry a bit of the heat away.

Also, light or white clothing lets a LARGE amount of sunlight directly through it, IE does not protect you from the ultra violet or the heat as effectivly as dark colors, so, instead of the cloth heating up and then actually helping you cool, instead your skin gets heated directly, oh, what fun.

[X-D]

double post

[John]

Black clothing is easier to hide in.

In the city, yes. Outside, no (unless you only want to hide in caves and at night). I'd say red and tan (for down south) and brown, red, green (for up north) would be much better in a range of circumstances.

guess people just like their characters to look 'cool'.

'Dude, check me out, I'm all decked out in black, I'm definitely badass.'

If you're wearing sandcloth chances are you go out in the desert and therefore you are already basass (or a fool). You don't need to wear black to show your a badass. Just by leaving the city you're showing it.

If people predominantly wearing black sandcloth is a problem then:

If you check the shop of the desert outfit in Red Storm, you will notice three major colors:  Red, brown and black.  These colors physically, are the colors that absorb the rays with the highest energy in the visible spectrum (though it depends on te tone of the color when Brown is the question).  There is no white.

this should be addressed before any coded changes are made

[Fantasy Kank]

There's so many places where reality and fantasy diverge in Arm. This one doesn't bother me at all. Fuck realism. Black is kewl. But most importantly, wear what y'ad wear IC.

[Pantoufle]

Ultimately, do you as players see an issue? Is this worth pursuing in the name of realism?

No.

There are plenty of black garments worn by real world desert inhabitants.  Without doing any research, I might even venture a guess that black is more popular amongst desert travellers than white.

[Tamarin]

I read somewhere that most of earth's desert travellers wear black intentionally because when worn properly, it is significantly cooler (and I don't mean style-wise) than lighter colors like white or sand.  From what I'm told, black is actually able to reflect a lot of the sun's rays, whereas lighter colors let them pass through, endangering the flesh.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, all I know is that when I used to work outside all the time during the summer wearing black was the kiss of death.  I always wore white.  I also don't see a large amount of black clothing at all when you see reports from the middle east.  Most every regular dude is wearing beige or white, loose clothing.

'cept the babes who got to wear that big old tent thing.

[Bestatte]

You can even check out biological differences between people living near desert areas and hot climates, and people living away from them. The further toward the north and south poles you get, the lighter the skin.

This, according to some research, isn't merely a genetic mutated reaction to the sun (a genetic suntan, if you will), but in addition to cool the skin in hotter climes, and let sun through to heat it in cooler climes.

Once you pass a certain point and get VERY close to the poles, you'll see more of the ruddy or reddish hues, which supposedly protects from blinding snows (which can be equally as blinding as blinding sands).

The snow reflects sun off, and it is -very- easy to get sunburned in the middle of winter in the northern mountain ranges. So you'll see people with darker skin there as well.

But right between the two, that's where you see the paler skins, whereas near the equator and at the furthest reaches of the poles, you see the darker skins.

This seems to imply that dark = protection from light, and pale = protection from cold.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

You might know this already, Bestatte, but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

Skin pigment differences between people living in nordic climes and people in hot desert climes didn't arise directly due to the heat/cold per se.   It is actually due to differences in the level of UV light.

UV light is necessary for humans to produce vitamin D, but it also causes cancer, sunburn, and is generally bad.  In areas that get a lot of UV light (Africa and other hot places), people need to have dark skin to block it out.  They don't have a problem getting enough vitamin D even with the dark skin, because there's just so much UV light they're exposed to all the time.  Things change in places like England, Norway, etc.  In these cold places, not only is it cold, but there also isn't much UV light at all.  So, there isn't much danger to being light skinned, and in fact there's a benefit--you're not blocking out the UV light you need to make vitamin D.

[Twilight]

Dwarves may have a natural body tempature of 150 degrees, rather than 98.  Wearing heavy armor might just be comfortable to them.  How knows.

If we make the assumption that all the races have the same body temperature, are comfortable in the same temperate range, are warm blooded (mantis, gith anyone?), have the same ability to cool down in hot weather, etc. I guess an argument can be made.  I just don't want to make those assumptions.

Added to this, we have a RED sun.  Not a yellow sun.  The radiations emitted are going to be different.  We also have a sandy, hazy atmosphere, green breezes and all other sorts of weird things.  With all those differences, black might be best.

[Mar]

Very interesting article about this question (I didn't notice if it was already mentioned):

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01173.htm

[SRB]

Ultimately, do you as players see an issue? Is this worth pursuing in the name of realism?

In all honesty I don't think this is a very important issue.

There are far more important things, IMO, to worry about making realistic in this game. I say let them be.

[skeetdaddle]

I've always felt this one to be an issue myself, so I did a little research, and here's a quote from a website I found. I was even surprised by what it says. Hope this helps:

"....What this means is relatively straightforward: black clothing absorbs sunlight and the heat radiating from your body, but if it is loose-fitting, and there is wind, the wind convects the heat away faster than it is absorbed. White clothing reflects sunlight, but also reflects internal heat back towards your body, so the net effect under identical conditions is less cooling than if you wore black. While it's true you don't often find fluffy black animals in deserts, you don't find many white animals, either--typically you find animals that blend into the background. So it appears that if heat gain and camouflage are in conflict, the need to avoid predation outweighs other considerations. On the other hand, desert-dwelling nomadic people such as the Tuaregs wear loose-fitting black clothing, and have been doing so for a very, very long time. If there were an advantage to wearing white clothes, you'd certainly expect they'd have figured that out by now."

-http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mblackcool.html

[Angela Christine]

I wonder how the climate affects all this?

According to the docs, an extreemly hot day in a city like Allanak can reach 140F.  That is much higher than human body temperature, I wouldn't have thought people could even survive at that temperature, except that apparently there are inhabited places on earth that occasionally reach that temperature.  :shock:  Most days won't be that extreme, but in much of the Known World the temperature will often be higher than human body temperature.  I think that is significant.  Even in the tropics on Earth the air temperature is usually lower than body temperature.  We are built to keep our innards warmer than the air around us, not cooler.  I don't know about you, but I find 80F uncomfortably warm.

I think there is a chance that in an extremely hot enviornment, like an extremely cold environment, insulation in clothing could become important again.  You might want a wall between the ambient temperature and your natural body temperature.  I don't know, just pondering.


AC

[Spoon]

Perhaps it's a macho thing. Kind of like a mirror of our world, where people from up north wear t-shirts in the middle of winter and insist they're not cold.

On Zalanthas, hard nuts deck themselves out in black leather and insist it's not hot, but rather mild, and that they're thinking about putting on another layer or two...

[Nidhogg]

This is moot if black is not in fact hotter. However if it is, I think there are three differences between city heat and desert heat. First the light is deflected and often obscured by the buildings. Light doesn't reflect back off the hard packed earth the way it will off sand. Finally, walking on sand requires more energy than walking on streets.

[Spoon]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4068337&dopt=Abstract

Here, check out some mad scientist's crazy experiment.

[Lazloth]

This is moot if black is not in fact hotter.

I think the evidence indicates that .. it's relative.  With loose-fitting garments (sandcloth, et.al.) in this hot, windy environment, darker colors can be argued as keeping a person cooler; I doubt anyone can make a case for tight leathers though.

[fearwig]

If the outside is say, 120 degrees on average, and the inside of your cloak is only 98.6, well, hell, I'd wear layers too. Makes you wonder if that'd be a practical approach. Probably not, considering that the winds of Zalanthas probably do a hell of a lot toward making it habitable where temperature is concerned, while torturing everyone at the same time.