Policy Changes

[House Rising Sun]

I am a sitting testament to the idea that the staff's precious time can be wasted with unnecessary submissions, and I think I'm seeing how these policy tryouts will be good for us. I've started small pc-run clans that got tons of imm support, and ended up collapsing because I lost interest. I've traded emails with a staff member to get one very specific object created, for one very short and very inconsequential event, and then (HAHAHA!) never used it. Right before this announcement, I tried to get a special order put through for an item that I wanted to be mostly unique to my pc just because I thought it'd be 'cool'. The icing is that I didn't want it craftable becuase none of you chuckleheads should have one.

All of these things are very very bad, and you should never ever do them. I'm glad the foot has been put down, so that people like me will have to find new ways of wasting our clan imm's time. Of course there are some situations that won't work with these new rules, if they end up being permanent policy. However, I think the upper staff has made it pretty clear that the things we call 'exceptions' will be treated with a fair approach, because almost all of our rules are just that flexible.

[wizturbo]

Sanura:

Thanks.  I had a feeling that for many of us this policy change will feel just like status quo, and i'm glad you said what you said to confirm this hope.

I spent quite a bit of time in a merchant clan, and I know ALL about someone wanting one of those swords with just a minor variation on something that already exists and how frustrating it was...and how much I wanted to take that custom sword and.....you get the idea.

So long as these policy changes are flexible enough to allow exceptions when exceptions are due, i'm perfectly content.

[Angela Christine]

People seem concerned about the no new clans thing, but I'd always assumed it would take way more than 3 months for a PC group to get semi-official Clan status with their own private face paint, tattoos or other clan items.  So I don't think this will be a huge change.  If the staff decides to extend the 3 month moritorium that could be dicey, but I think I see a  potential backdoor, a way to "trick" them into it: be interesting.

Freed from some of the backlog, some staffers will have more time for watching what PCs are doing and interacting with them through NPCs and environmental echos.  So if an interesting person recruits some other interesting people, and they run around doing interesting things, then chances are that some imms are going to notice.  Watching an interesting group of people doing interesting things has got to be more fun than watching Generic Hunter Who Dislikes Solo-Emoting #139, right?  Now if this interesting group manages to stay alive and vibrant for a couple months, continuing to do interesting things and not turning into a one-trick-pony, then there is a chance that some staffer will think "Hey, these guys are cool.  I wish I was their imm," and then maybe s/he decides to make them one of hir special projects and volunteers to sponser them without any of the players ever petitioning the MUD for clan sponsership.

Or maybe not.  But being interesting is its own reward, so it certainly won't _hurt_ to be interesting.  

* * *

As for items, maybe more of the unused items could find their way into circulation without requests?  The idea of a sort of "catalog" on the website was shot down years ago, so there is really no way for players to know if a pair of gold pantaloons already exists or not.  
Right now I'd have to track down a Kadian merchant PC, ask "would it be possible for a pair of gold pantaloons to be made for me?"  And the Kadian would say, "Gold pantaloons?  Hmm, I'd have to check with our tailors about that.  It'll be pricy though."  Then the Kadian would write to his imm, the imm would look through the database and get back to the Kadian, then me and the Kadian would have to link up again for him to tell me "no" or "yes, and it will cost 12000 sids" and then I decide if I want his over-priced pantaloons or not, if I go ahead then he sends another email to his imm who loads up the pantaloons after a suitable delay, and then, if neither of us has died, the Kadian tracks me down to sell me the much-anticipated pantaloons.  Talk about your run-on sentances.  And that is just the best case senario!  If there was a mis-communication somewhere along the line about what was wanted, or an email got lost in the bowels of the internet, or the particular Kadian I was dealing with dies or retires without telling another Kadian what I ordered, or the imm in charge of the order has a real life crisis, or . . . well, a lot of things can go wrong.  I once had a Tuluki character that wanted a pen (at a time when there were no pen-selling shops in that city) and it took me months and several (at least 3) merchants to get a stupid pen, I was itching to just hire a band of mercenaries to go down to Allanak and buy me one from the shop there, but that seemed kind of absurd -- there are plenty of feathers in the north, how hard could it be to turn one into a pen?  My point is that sometimes a bunch of things can go wrong that keep even a non-unique item from being available in a timely manner.


So my idea is to have shops load some unusual items more often.  Not necessarily fancy or expensive items, just things that are not seen much, and just one or two of each.  That would take care of the idea that if it is unique it must be a quest item.  Having clan imms load up a few extra items on imm day seems viable, but then people will only go shopping on Saturday night, the "extra" items would probably only be available in Big Three shops, and it would be one more dull task for Big Three imms.

A more flexible solution might be a  generic wandering merchant type NPC, who could live in imm land most of the time.  I suggest the name "Lootie McLooterson."    When some imm was bored they could load up some under-used items and give them to Lootie, then posess him and send him to a city.  He would wander around the bazaar, selling his items to random NPC merchants for 1 sid.

>offer pantaloons 1
>offer sword 1
>offer goggles 1
... and so on.

That way he wouldn't strip the NPC merchants of all their cash, he would basically be an OOC device to get unusual items into random shops at random times, not a "realistic" type character.  They would then try to sell the item based on it's value and their usual markup.

More items in circulation, so even if you don't want to buy it now you know that it is available in the database = good.  Having the items appear in all shops (both large and small) and at any time would prevent Saturday Reboot Stampedes to find the new items.  You wouldn't need to worry too much about markings, because even if it was originally made by Salaar in the north, it could easily have gotten into an independant's inventory in the south via a travelling merchant or luckless adventurer.  I like it.


Angela Christine

[Twilight]

Two questions left.

First is, in general, will subclass gained crafting skills be able to go high enough to gain master crafter status.  My gut feeling would be no, for a few different reasons.  Whether this question should be answered even is debatable I guess, but it would be nice to have people avoid a nasty shock later if they are told their skill in beer_brewing will never be "naturally" high enough for them to be a master crafter, without immortal intervention.

Second question is, do these policies apply to component making?  Given previous interaction I've had in this area, I am guessing no?  Clarity from the beginning is always good.

[Anonymous]

I just want to know about my year+ played PC who has already had a line removed from his main desc and a word changed in his sdesc.  Assuming those are marked down on my character somewhere, when my PC gets to be old and frail will it seem like I am trying to go around the rules if I want to submit a desc change that reflects that he is no longer a sturdy fellow?

Someone mentioned the idea of two desc changes a year, and I think I like that and hope it is considered if it wasn't already.

Regardless I think desc changes should not be allowed for the first 6 months of a PC's life, especially if players are provided a way to get their own scars.

[Vanth]

Watching an interesting group of people doing interesting things has got to be more fun than watching Generic Hunter Who Dislikes Solo-Emoting #139, right?

Preach it, sister.

I like your ideas for loading items randomly onto shopkeepers...that's something to consider.

[Halaster]

First is, in general, will subclass gained crafting skills be able to go high enough to gain master crafter status.  My gut feeling would be no, for a few different reasons.  Whether this question should be answered even is debatable I guess, but it would be nice to have people avoid a nasty shock later if they are told their skill in beer_brewing will never be "naturally" high enough for them to be a master crafter, without immortal intervention.

In most cases, no.  Subguilds are designed to be additional skills that you may have learned before starting the character.  They're not your main gig.  If you want your main gig to be crafting, you'll have to play those guilds that get crafting skills "naturally".  

Second question is, do these policies apply to component making?  Given previous interaction I've had in this area, I am guessing no?  Clarity from the beginning is always good.

Do you mean, if you've mastered component making, can you submit new items for it?  I don't see why not, but I could be wrong.  Sanvean?

[Intrepid]

If you want your main gig to be crafting, you'll have to play those guilds that get crafting skills "naturally".

Which guilds would those be?

[Tamarin]

I'm guessing merchant..

[Intrepid]

I'm guessing merchant.

Is merchant the only one though?

[Tlaloc]

Yes, unless you're talking about a crafting skill that merchants don't get.

[Sanvean]

There are some magickal crafting skills, which are reserved for magicky types.  Everything else is merchant.

If you are a magicky type who has confirmed that they are a Master Crafter in one of those skills, I don't see a problem with creating it.  I would expect it to be roleplayed out, and for the ease of obtaining the specific ingredients to affect the power of the item.

The best ways to confirm that you are or aren't a Master Crafter in a particular skill:

1) Put something in your objective like "Want to see if I have reached MasterCrafter basketweaving".
2) Check with your clan immortal.
3) Email the account.

[House Rising Sun]

Is it too much to suggest that if this mastercrafting policy stays after the three months, then we consider putting some special kind of marker on a pc's skill list indicating to the player what crafting skills are high enough? I can already picture the mud's inbox filled with just as many skill rating requests as it was with new item submissions before the change, since the answer 'no' will only spur more frequent emails. If you're going to tell us yes or no anyway, why not save some time and trouble and just hardcode the answer right into the skill command?

[Bestatte]

I totally agree with House's post..I'd also like to see it documented in the main docs somewhere..that IF there are any skills that you can get mastery of by picking a subguild, then that subguild will have some kind of notation telling the players this. And not just hinting; but specifying clearly. Something like....

Armorcrafting*

*There is at least one skill in this subguild which you can attain mastery of.

[Sanvean]

There are no skills that you can get mastery of by picking a subguild.

[Xygax]

Subguild skills can never rise to the level of what we call mastery.  As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, master craftsmen (other than magicky types) are members of the merchant guild, and none other.

[Larrath]

I would like to suggest that instead of having to gain X skillpoints in order to submit a given crafting item, the amount of skill needed is made dependant on the item's nature.

Tailors probably don't need to be able to successfully craft full-length gowns nine out of ten times in order to custom-make a 'rinthi tunic for some templar that likes slumming, for instance.
Florists are unlikely to need to become masters of their art in order to dry a petal, thread it with a needle and wear it as a necklace, either.


I believe this will take away a lot of the bad feelings some people have about this particular change, and it simply makes more sense, since it allows us to take the custom orders back from the spam-crafters.
Besides, we aren't supposed to really focus on skill increases.
(And forcing every tailor out there to twink out on their clothworking skill for the OOC benefit is not all that good anyway).

[Bestatte]

I'm not sure I agree with this then..I refrained from comment previously because I wanted to hear more, both from staff and from players.

I know that the merchant guild comes with certain base crafts, and branch to other crafts. I don't know which they come with and which they branch to, so this is a hypothetical coming up:

Merchant Joe wants to become a master weaponsmith. But first, he has to get good at knife-making. He has no interest in knife making, because he intends to specialize in axes and longswords and other "really big" weapons that require a whole different method of creation...learning to whittle a small piece of wood into a knife is not even remotely similar to creating a 3-piece battle-axe, afterall.

Meanwhile, Crafter Jim is a weaponsmith already. It's what he specializes in, it's what he does for a living. According to the docs, it -is- what a weaponsmith does for a living. In those words exactly. "for a living."

Why in the world can't Crafter Jim ever become as good - if not even better - than Merchant Joe, who can't even make a longsword after three weeks of making daggers? Crafter Jim's been making them from the get-go. Crafter Jim can ALSO make daggers, because he's got that knifemaking skill on his list. But he doesn't have to whittle wood for a game-year, just for the privilege of learning how to put an obsidian blade on a mekillot bone. He already has a general idea of how to make axes, because - he's a weaponsmith.

It just seems kind of confusing, that someone with such a huge variety of skills like the Merchant PC would -not- be "jack of all trades, master of none," while the PC who specializes will never be "good enough."

[wizturbo]

Bestatte:

I don't think there is a problem here.  If your a merchant, and you choose the weaponcrafter subguild, that means your "cap" on weaponmaking skills is the "cap" of a merchant which means you CAN become a master.  If your a ranger weaponcrafter, your "cap" is lower then that of a merchant so the answer would be no.

As a side note:

I STRONGLY believe that character who choose a subguild to be their "profession" in game should still be able to craft new items.  However it should be made very clear through their roleplay that they ARE a certain profession.  A physician comes to mind.  Even if you can only make a new item every 2 months instead of 1 month in that instance, the option should still be available.

For instance, if a ranger chooses "ranger/archer" which is redundent in many of the skills you get to my knowledge, they should be able to craft new bows if they reach their respective "cap" in bowmaking.  The reason for choosing ranger/archer, might be you want to be a master archer yourself, and being able to create custom well designed bows suited to maybe your strength, or a friend's strength, should still be possible.  However I strongly stress, that your MAIN FOCUS in roleplay should be archery and bowmaking as a profession, not just being a ranger who wanted to be able to make their own uber-unique bow in the future so they chose archer subguild.

[Intrepid]

I'm embarassed to say that I didn't know about the mastery levels
(lack thereof) for subguilds and I've played on this game for years.

It suddenly makes the merchant class seem so much more useful.

[Bestatte]

I think the help files on the crafting sub-guilds should be rewritten then. Currently they state that people with those sub-guilds "make their living" doing those things. That says to me - that they have chosen something to specialize in..or that the player who picks it has the ability to give their character the background of specializing in the craft.

We are told over and over again - that you don't have to use all the skills on your skills lists. So if I want to make an assassin character because I like the idea of sneaking around and it fits my character's rinthi background, but my character has a gift for making beautiful clothing..

Well I'm shit outta luck, because I will NEVER be good enough to make anything that any merchant who spends hours and hours making baskets all day can't also make.

If I wanna be that good, I'll have to pick Merchant, just like everyone else who wants to be that good in any craft. And now that only masters can submit items, my guess, is that anyone who wants to submit items will be flooding the game with Merchant characters.

As I said previously - it'll be interesting to see.

[Cenghiz]

Let merchant class be much more useful. I totally agree with that. How many merchant d-elves you meet? 0? At least they don't wander where I do. The PC population seems to consisting of hunters, more hunters, warriors, much more warriors and magickers to me. Normally, a healthy populations should have had a good amount of merchants wandering around using the resources and protection of the hunters, warriors and even magickers. There's already something wrong. Let merchants be the master crafters.
And; I sent a mail to the account lately to give up some of my subguild skills in exchange for another skill. The answer was something like: Subguild represents what your character used to do to make a living. Merchants dedicate their all lives to crafting. A ranger stonecarver is someone who used to carve stone, who still does from time to time. But he's a hunter. Period.
.....
By the way, out of curiousity, is merchant class also a potentiol master pickmaker?

[Bogre]

Using logic, maybe if he was a merchant/thief, hmm?

[Twilight]

Hmm, I have to admit that a blanket "You have to be a merchant except for magicky skills" type answer is not what I expected.  There are a couple of specific crafting skills that non-merchant guilds branch into, was my understanding.  I would have thought they they would have been able to be master crafters in those skills as well, eventually.

[Ayashah]

Actually, I like that people whom just chose subguilds CANT become master crafters. That would be because they are taking it as a secondary skill they use to make a living. Nothing use to bother me more than see someone as a warrior come in and spend a RL week crafting items just to have a person's superior rub it in their merchant's face at how productive Joe Warrior was at making things. To me, those items would be inferior as they only dedicate a 'portion' of their time to learning how to do it.

My sister can make a pretty decent dress but she's no dressmaker. It takes her a lot of time and patience to do that WHEN she's not busy with her other duties in life.  (get where I am going)

If this policy stays in effect then I think that should definitely be part of it. If you want to be the master crafter of doom, then make a merchant whose -whole- life is devoted to it instead of those times one cant go out and hunt, etc.

Just my honest opinion on that part folks