You need to role play better/harsh world

[Cloaked Kank]

I've seen a lot of good ideas brought up in the last few weeks on this board, some of them by noobs.

There is a certain core of people who seem to respond to any new idea with one of two responses:

A) This is a harsh world, deal with it.

or

B) Try solo roleplaying!  Roleplay more, roleplay better.

I think that both of these tacts are self-defeating.  Personally, when I read either of them I become more sympathetic to their target.

They're both very condescending.  Let me address the "harsh world" attitude first.  Because I think there is a time and a place for these types of comments.  If someone who has been playing for only a week or two whines --

"It took me an hour to find a good source of food and water.  Some people began attacking me for no reason.  Someone in a tavern called me a name.  I'm bored of reading through the helpfiles."

Then yes, it's appropriate to tell them to deal with it.  The harsh world comment is appropriate for people who expect an easy game, who expect hand-holding, or who can't deal with some IC abuse.

It's not appropriate to make that remark against persons who have demonstrated self-reliance, resiliance and tolerance of IC abuse.  Especially if their post is addressing a playability issue.  Playability and having a harsh game world have NOTHING to do with each other.  A harsh world can be highly playable, or it can be unplayable.  An easy world can be playable or unplayable.  Playability and harshness are separate issues.

To hit my second point, role-playing ability and attention span are two separate issues as well.  For example, if someone writes into the game,

"I've been trying to undertake {in game action} for five real life hours, and am not having any luck.  Can someone please throw me a bone?"

Telling someone to 'roleplay it' is not the solution.  Unless they're a total idiot, they HAVE been trying to roleplay it.  The advice 'try ropleplaying it' is always implied and therefore is always redundant.  Stating that is stating the obvious.  This is a roleplaying game and we are all roleplayers.  Advocating roleplay as the solution to all problems is abusrd.

In conclusions, when somebody says "It's a harsh world, deal with it," or "try role-playing it", what I actually see is

- "I've been playing for too long and am too conservative to contemplate change."
- "I'm not inventive enough to come up with a viable solution, so I'll throw a band-aid on the problem"
- "My parents did do a good enough job raising me to teach me to listen well and attempt to be sympathetic to other people's problems.  I lack that capacity."[/img]

[JollyGreenGiant]

The GDB is a harsh place.  Deal with it.

*scampers off, chortling greenly.

/got nothing.

[sarahjc]

OK..

So, you really need to give better examples of what you are barking about here, because this to me is just a gripe.

Yes, there are people on the boards who will give a bitchy answer to things, because yes.. they have been playing too long and just don't want to deal.. but that is not the majority, and to those who don't like those posts, I say... Don't read them. I don't.

Now to address the "it's a harsh world issue" Many times the answer is just that simple.

Why are there so many sand storms.. It's a harsh world.
Why can't I kill a scrab on my first try.. It's a harsh world.
Why don't I have more starting money.. I don't have enough supplies.. It's a harsh world.
Why did a templar beat me up and take all my money for not bowing to him.. It's a harsh world.

I could go on and on. Arm does not pride itself in being a Newbie Friendly game, it prides itself in being a submersive RP experience, which it is.  Now questions like..

I can't find a place to get water..
How do I get a job...
Why am I always hungry..
Why did the soldiers auto attack me.

I will say.. All of these questions have been asked before.. I have asked some of them. Most of these questions can be answered by the  -extensive- help files and in all the posts, on top of posts that have been put up before... and some people will be good about it and answer those questions again here.

You will also here the annoying phrase "Find out IC" .. and you as well may even use that phrase some day.. Because that is how we all find out things. Yes, some guidance is always provided.. But you can easily find out IC how to get a job.. And asking IC for help, is the best thing you can do. I think a lot of people come into the game afraid because they dpn't want people thinking. "Oh look, here comes the newbie." We were all once Newbies..

Also I will add.. Those three words "Find out IC" is the best way to submerge yourself in the world and the first big steps in interacting and -roleplaying- with other people. Example:

Newbie walks in to the bar and asks, "Hey can anyone tell me where I can get a drink of water."

The old veteran armer turns to the newbie dropping his boots from the side of his stool to the floor and blows out a billow of spicy smoke to a thick cloud above his head.

The old veteran armer pulls a spicy tube from his mouth, speaking through a thick cloud of smoke says to the newbie, "Sure, Fella.. step outta here and go west to the north road.. take that up a ways.. I dunno... about three leagues and you'll see a shop just to east.."

As opposed to coming on to the GDB and finding out by someone saying..

Yeah, its east of the north road in freils rest..


Anyway.. This is just my take on it..

[Anonymous]

Sarahjc,

Far from a gripe, I'm suggesting what I would consider to be a better model to deal with newbie questions.  I don't complain about problems, I fix them.

Your post is well thought out and made with good intentions, I believe.  Before I write anything else, I would like to commend you on that.  Your advice for not reading the posts made by bitchy people sounds good, I will definitely try that.

However, turning to examine the overall tone and content of your post, you seem more than anything else to prove my case, in point.  Even though my post was addressing
an out of game issue, playability issue, your comment seemed as though it could be summarized as

"It's a harsh world, deal with it."

This is neither here nor there.  Perhaps the fault for the miscommunication lies with me, because I made the original post.  If so, please allow me to restate just that.

Thesis:  "Being condescending to people who are contributing new ideas or who are asking questions that will either increase their ability to roleplay and to contribute to group fun and satisfaction is self-defeating."

Although your post was very well worded and very polite, it still left me with the impression of you being the older school teacher, patting the student on the head who has just asked a question and telling her to run along and play.

The reason I avoided any specific example was because I didn't want to make this post about scrabs.  I didn't want to make it about sand-storms.  I wanted this to be about contributing to game development and customer service.

However I feel that specifics might help you, so I will build upon the examples that you gave.

"Why are there so many sand storms.."

Bad answer:  It's a harsh world.

Better answer:  Desertification and coriolis effect have contributed, along with several IC factors, to creating harsh sandstorms.  If you feel that the sandstorms are detracting from your enjoyment of the game, please send a single, polite email to the MUD concisely explaining your position.

"Why can't I kill a scrab on my first try.. "

Bad answer:  It's a harsh world.

Better answer: Scrabs are giant beetles that have evolved to prey on tough game, including humanoids.  Beggining warrios often lack the wherewithal to take one down by themselves.  If you're having trouble surviving, you might want to think about joining a clan, which has been the background for many of Zalanthas' top warriors.

Note: At the end of these, it's good to toss the person a bone.  You don't want to give them all the information they want, but at least nudge them in the direction they want.  Another example.

"Why don't I have more starting money.. I don't have enough supplies.. "

Bad answer: It's a harsh world.

Better answer: High levels of poverty exist on Zalanthas.  Altough a typical Cherokee Indian may have only spent 30% of their time acumulating basic resources, a typical citizen of Zalanthas might spend 70% of their time.  If you're having trouble with your current character, you might want to try making a ranger, who are more self-reliant

"Why did a templar beat me up and take all my money for not bowing to him.."

Bad answer: It's a harsh world.

Better answer:  Templars are notoriously violent and corrupt.  Citizens of the major city spend a significant amount of time avoiding trouble with the Templarate, even if they have done nothing wrong.  Especiailly if they never break the law.  If some of the players are mean to you, and you find yourself unable to cope with this, you might want to check out achea, another MUD.  www.achea.com


"I can't find a place to get water.."

Bad answer: find out in game.

Better answer:  stop and ask an NPC for directions.  That NPC will tell you to Look east of Freil's Rest.  Give the NPC five or ten obsidian coins for their trouble.

How do I get a job...

Bad answer:  Find out in game.

Better answer:  Hang around bars, and ask anyone who looks friendly.  If they help you, buy them an ale.

"Why am I always hungry.."

Answer:  It's a harsh world.

Yes, sometimes this is the answer, if someone is just whining about something.

"Why did the soldiers auto attack me."

Bad answer:  It's a harsh world.

Better answer:  Although gameplay on Armageddon is pretty smooth, major problems exist.  One known problem is the crim code.  If you died and don't have any idea why, this is a likely clue that the crim code spazzed and you were attacked for a dumb reason.  It happens sometimes.  If this really bothers you, please send a polite, concise email to the MUD asking them to fix the crim code when they have time.

Also, it's ironic that you bring up the Find out IC issue, because that's a whole seperate issue that I'll challenge soon, because people tend to spam that as a panacea as well.

Thanks for getting back to me on this.  Actually, I'm not a noob at all, I just want to bring better customer satisfaction to people who have the potential to bring major contributions to the game.

-sjanimal[/i]

[jhunter]

I don't think those are necessarily bad answers. I think they are a nudge in the right direction leaving the person to discover those things themselves instead of being told exactly how to go about it.

Discovery is one of the best things about Armageddon.

It's alot more satisfying to be told: "Find out IC." and go figure it out IC yourself, than have someone tell you exactly how to do it IC, IMHO.

[amoeba]

I think Cloaked K. and sarahjc both have valid points, it's more a matter of perspective.

The base problem as I see it, is that the same questions get asked over and over again. A knee jerk reaction of look it up or ask IC without going into a lengthy discussion of why is only natural.

Now that being said I think that as we get more new players with varying attention spans, the questions will be asked ad nasium again.  My suggestion is that we setup a FAQ (frequently asked questions) page(s).  Yes, you can get the information, by searching the GDB, or through a carefull reading of the website, but IMHO it would be nice to be able to direct someone politely to the FAQ where they can quickly find an answer, rather than the pat find out IC or read the documentation response.

My 2 sid

[Bestatte]

And then there's codgy old farts like me who were once clueless newbies but managed to figure MOST of that stuff out without having to add a 900th thread to the GDB asking the same stuff that 899 people before me asked.

As for the good answer/bad answer - be glad you didn't ask me because here's my answers:

Why are there so many sandstorms:

Uh - have you read the main page of the website yet? It's a DESERT WORLD. You know - lots of sand? Hello?

Why can't I kill a scrab on the first try:

Uh - have you read the page about skills or the helpfiles on your skills yet? Your character is NEW to the experience of killing stuff. RP-wise he could've been really great once but is out of practice - but code-wise, he's NEW.  New - meaning - never done it before - ya know - like trying to be a rocket scientist without first having a basic understanding of math?

Why did the templar beat me up and take my coins for not bowing to him:

You answered your own question. You didn't bow to him.

I can't find a place to get water.

Three possible solutions: One: you showed up in a tavern. Try typing LIST. D'oh.

Two: Ask someone in the game.

Three: Wander around and read the room descriptions. You know - those paragraphs that people read, to find stuff out, such as - some weird building chock full of moisture is off to the east?

Why am I always hungry:

Two possible solutions to this too - remarkably similar to real life...

One: Your character is a pig and should stop eating so much. THen his stomach will shrink and he won't feel hungry all the time.

Two: Because you didn't bother to read the helpfiles that would have explained to you that your character will get hungry, and if you don't "eat your fill" he will continuously be grabbing at crumbs.

Why did the soldiers auto-attack me:

Once again - a no-brainer. All you seek, grasshopper, is found on the website. Or in the thousands of posts already posted right here on the GDB, some of which are recent enough that they haven't needed to be archived yet.

If it's too much for you to read stuff before asking questions, then perhaps Armageddon isn't for you. Remember kids - reading is FUNdamental!

Now - aren't you glad you didn't ask ME?

[Bestatte]

I think Cloaked K. and sarahjc both have valid points, it's more a matter of perspective.

The base problem as I see it, is that the same questions get asked over and over again. A knee jerk reaction of look it up or ask IC without going into a lengthy discussion of why is only natural.

Now that being said I think that as we get more new players with varying attention spans, the questions will be asked ad nasium again.  My suggestion is that we setup a FAQ (frequently asked questions) page(s).  Yes, you can get the information, by searching the GDB, or through a carefull reading of the website, but IMHO it would be nice to be able to direct someone politely to the FAQ where they can quickly find an answer, rather than the pat find out IC or read the documentation response.

My 2 sid

We -have- Frequently asked questions. We -have- a whole section of the website dedicated to helping new players learn the ropes. We -have- another section dedicated entirely to players who come from other games.

Having more pages won't solve the problem. Players reading what's already available will.

[Xamminy]

I was debating providing any answer to this, but I seem to be noticing one thing.  sjanimal, you are expecting detailed, in depth, and possibly even scientific answers to simple questions...

The easiest answer is, "Because the IMMs made it harsh in that fashion.  If you have problems or would like help acclimating to the game, please send an email to the mud account at mud@ginka.armageddon.org or contact a helper at the following link: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/helpers.html "

[Krath]

I don't know...I am tending to agree with Sjanimal.  I agree many of the answers should be given to
newbies in the way described in the second post. I do not think it is conducive to the newbie to
answer in the form or tone Bestatte did. I just think that the way she came off would make a newbie
feel inferior, and unintelligent, when in actuality he/she just does know. Just because us "old Schoolers"
had to learn the hard way does not mean others are apt to learn the same way as well. Think of the
possible players we could have, but left because someone would not give them an answer like sjanimal
gave as an example of a good one. Think of the players out there who believe our answers to them are
arrogant and just plain mean. I just believe when you answer a question for a newbie or anyone else you
should answer in the form which you would like a question answered to you. Being rude and arrogant just
because you had to learn a much harsher way does not make you better than the new player.

I will stop that before it seems like a flame. Another thing the newbies can do is ask a helper. We are here for
that reason and if you can not reach us on AIM, Yahoo, or MSN, then drop us an email and I am 100% confident
they will treat your question as an intelligent one and with the respect and dignity you need.  The truth of the matter
is, the GDB is just as harsh if not harsher than the actual game because people feel the need to express their own
opinions on how things are done and should be done in their eyes. So Any newbie, it would probably be easier for you
to just ask a helper rather than on the GDB. It may be a little bit inconvenient, but in the end it will more than
likely give you a satisfied answer.

[sarahjc]

Ok Kank..

It was not a pat on the head, and the answer it's a harsh world is simply that.. Is it the best answer maybe not... But..

I will state again that we have -extensive- docs.. all the answers that you have given can be found in them.. There is really no need to ask those kinds of questions and when they are asked.. I see no real reason to type out a lot of words that can be found someplace else.  Also I will state that these questions have -All- been answered before. You can do a search and find them..

And I can also understand the idea, "Does it really take that much time to type out a polite answer?" To that I say, "Does it really take all that much time to read the docs on it?" Then if you have further questions.. Ok, post those.. I'll answer those.

If someone asks the question.. "There seems to be more sand storms than normal in the south.. is this a code change? " That is a question I will answer/comment on.

"Why are there so many sand storms??"  Come on.. read the docs..

Now will I say.. Fuck off, or it's a harsh world.. no.. most likely I will point to a link on it.. But on the same token, how many times has that link been pointed to?? Expect some people to make a gripe.

I mean, the staff stresses that reading the documentation beforehand is the most important thing you can do. I just don't see the point here.

Also you can always ask things IC, old players like to help Newbies IC... I know I do. I honestly think it just gets tiring to people who have been playing the game so long because the answers to those kinds of questions are there, and they are -EVERYWHERE-. All you need do is look.  

Could some people answer in a way that is a bit more polite?? (glowers at Bestatte) Yes..

Do they have to?? It's a free board..

Edit: Now for things being changed to accomidate your likes/dislikes.. please wish up and give the imms a chuckle...

[amoeba]

We -have- Frequently asked questions. We -have- a whole section of the website dedicated to helping new players learn the ropes. We -have- another section dedicated entirely to players who come from other games.

Having more pages won't solve the problem. Players reading what's already available will.

You are correct, there is a page titled "Frequently Asked Questions" , that however does not fit the definition of what I am suggesting.  BTW, it is just a suggestion, not a slam, a rant, or anything else.  A "FAQ" in the sense that I am suggesting is not a document perse but rather a tool for organizing information.  Idealy it would be dynamic in such a way as to be able add questions in a organized manner.  The answers themselves could be nothing more than links back to the relevant spot on the website.  I don't think that adding a tool to help someone find a answer to a specific question in an organized and timely manner verses having to slog through a number of pages is a problem.  It's just a tool.  Personally I'm an avid reader, and I have read through the webpages many times.  Yet I still would be hard pressed to a specific locations to any number of questions, I would have to slog through the pages myself.

On a side note, I  never suggested that people don't need to  read the documentation, nor did I attack anyones position, just offered a suggestion.  No need to be condesending or snippy  in responding.

[Laeris]

And then there's codgy old farts like me who were once clueless newbies but managed to figure MOST of that stuff out without having to add a 900th thread to the GDB asking the same stuff that 899 people before me asked.

As for the good answer/bad answer - be glad you didn't ask me because here's my answers:

There's a debate that comes up occasionally with the staff that pertains to character applications.  Often when someone is first trying out the game, their initial application is not up to par.  Sometimes, it looks like the player didn't even bother to read many of the docs.  So the question arises as to whether we should immediately reject the application with a note telling the player to read the documentation, rewrite their description, and resubmit or whether we should go a little out of our way and do whatever is necessary to provide those players with a functional, initial application.

Invariably, the staff as a collective whole has leaned towards the latter solution.  Sure, it's a bit frustrating that we get the occasional app that looks as if the player put about as much time into it as it takes them to blink.  But, judging from the incredible influx of new blood that we have had in the past few years, I think the investment has been worth it.

The same logic used there can be applied to this discussion.  Yes, it's a bit frustrating when the same question is posed time and time again.  Yes, it's a bit frustrating when the answer can be found by simply perusing a few docs.  But by going the extra mile on occasion and providing answers that are not terribly ICly abusive, it gives new players a more enthusiastic and welcomed feeling.  The documentation for the game is extensive and can, admittedly, be a bit intimidating initially.  I know when I first started playing the game I was terribly excited about getting into and experiencing the game.  A bit of an initial assistance can help those players who feel the same and allow them to judge the game based on its merits, rather than the time it takes to wade through the collective juggernaut of documentation on the website and in the helpfiles.

By no means am I attempting to pick on, or single out, Bestatte but what happens when we take this sort of approach is that often times new players see such attitudes and infer from them an elitist and arrogant attitude to those less knowledgeable of the game and its mechanics.  That's not a terribly effective way of attracting new players.  I for one have seen numerous players that have submitted horrid initial applications, or asked incredibly inane and frustrating questions, go on to blossom and become quite productive and wonderful additions to the game.  I would also like to continue to see more.

[Dresan]

For those that have seen the same question a million times, guess what some haven't, some like I was are fresh from the vine, this is basically my first Mud and i've never done this before.  How are people supposed to know that it has been asked before, should people go throughout the whole forum just so you don't have to see the same question again?  
Having my anon.kank posts flamed more then once by Bestatte,  I am truely and honestly happy for people who were able to figure out the whole game on their own without asking for help.  Its quite an achievement, one that she should continue to rub in our faces but unfortunately not something everyone can do for various reasons.
 
         Frankly people who can come up with an answer better than "Find out ICly" or other few word "wonder" answers shouldn't be posting in that thread at all, they should just move on. The compusion go out of your way just to annoy or be bitchy is astounding sometimes.  We have helpers that persumable volunteer their time and patience to answer the same old question politely and effectively, let them handle it if you can't.
The game world is supposed to be harsh..the harshness ends there.

EDIT: Just read Laeris post and i couldn't agree more.

[Miee]

I just took a quick look at the FAQ in the helpfiles.

Maybe we could rework the FAQ and add a link to it from the Quickstart.  "We suggest you take the time to read these helpfiles and this FAQ"

Of course the idea of the QS is to be documentation light and we could always just have a FAQ sticky or just a broad general FAQ on the website.  

This way, we can easily refer people's questions on the GDB to a point in the FAQ instead of "Find out IC" or "The world is harsh" and without sounding elitist.

"We've got something in the FAQ over here.  Here's the link<blah>."  You can even quote from it too!

[Bestatte]

First of all, if you've read my posts in various threads answering various questions, you'll see that the vast majority of them are not "find out IC." In fact I absolutely loathe the term, always did, always will. Many questions I see come from people who HAVE made an attempt to find out for themselves, and the way they pose their question shows this clearly.

To those people who have tried, and failed, to find out what they want to know, I applaud you - and will STILL refer you to a helpfile if I know there's one to answer the question.

To those people who haven't tried, no sympathy at all. No one gave me any when I started playing, no one gave most people any when they started playing. If you aren't willing to look stuff up and TRY to find out for yourself, you don't deserve to have people bend over backwards to help you.

As anyone on the staff who's monitored my character can attest, I've spent countless hours helping people in the game. Stopping my own RP to show a newbie around and help them out with syntax, remind them not to talk about their lockpicking skill and that I'd pretend I didn't hear it that one time..help them learn the different types of weapons and why one might be more appropriate for them - introducing them to various people who might help them ICly better than I can on various things for their character, talking with them via Instant Message to show them examples of emoting and other assorted mechanical things, etc. etc. etc.

I am VERY helpful and enjoy helping people. But only if they take the first step. I am not here to help. I'm not a staff member. I'm not a Helper. I'm a player, and my FIRST priority when it comes to Armageddon is to play.  So when I see post after post written by what seems to be the same person or persons, asking question after question of things they could have found out for themselves by taking FIVE MINUTES to look it up in the help file, then yeah - I'm gonna get grouchy.

Edited to fix "whose" to "who's"

[Bestatte]

Addendum of last post, to Laeris:

I know you weren't singling me out. I was giving a good example of the "grumpy old fart" approach to helping people, and it fit the bill for your response to the thread.

You also know, however, that most of that was sarcasm - even my account notes state clearly that I'm very good, and helpful, to new players.

I still think "It's a desert world - d'oh" is a perfectly legitimate response to anyone who asks why there are sandstorms in Armageddon though <smirk> You don't need to be a veteran player to figure that one out. You don't even need to read a helpfile. It's just one of those things that requires a TINY bit of common sense.

Anyway - back to Laeris' points:

I think it's great that the staff want to encourage new players to play. And I think it's even greater when a new player who's clueless, learns and does a damned wonderful job of it.

But - I also think it's a disservice to everyone that new player comes across, if those other people are trying to RP and are disrupted by the new player being -so- unaware of things that it's obvious they probably didn't even write their own character background.

I'd rather see background writing totally and strictly enforced - if only to prove to the staff that the player has in fact read ENOUGH of the website to write one that fits the game theme. No one is expected to memorize the docs. And I know I haven't read a good portion of them yet. But at least when I'm trying something new, I make an attempt to learn about it before I start asking questions. Is it that much of a big deal to expect the same courtesy from others? Because yes - it IS a courtesy. It's good manners. You don't interrupt a football game to ask the quarterback what that big yellow line on the field means. That's how I feel *sometimes* when I'm reading posts here, or meeting new players in the game.

Not always- not even often. But sometimes. And sometimes - it makes me wanna smush some faces.

[Miee]

...
By no means am I attempting to pick on, or single out, Bestatte but what happens when we take this sort of approach is that often times new players see such attitudes and infer from them an elitist and arrogant attitude to those less knowledgeable of the game and its mechanics.  That's not a terribly effective way of attracting new players.  I for one have seen numerous players that have submitted horrid initial applications, or asked incredibly inane and frustrating questions, go on to blossom and become quite productive and wonderful additions to the game.  I would also like to continue to see more.

I'm not taking that Laeris was calling you unhelpful, Bessie.  I read that as "Taking these kinds of attitudes on the board might cause new/potential players to think that there's a good number of those with 'an elitist and arrogant attitude to those less knowledgeable of the game and its mechanics.'"

Sometimes people want to come and look at what kind of community the MUD has before joining.

While I share your frustration with people that don't read the docs, I don't feel it's necessary to have to bring that up every time the "A lot of the same questions are being asked again and again"* thread comes up.  We're not obligated in any way to respond to every single thread and topic but if we feel the need to say "OK, look.  Read the docs dumbass."  We can simply link them to the docs or the doc in question and suggest that reading them or as much as they can is very, very helpful.  In fact, we could probably use the QS page for the real n00bie questions.  "It's on this page, about halfway down."  

They continue to not help themselves, we can let them be and let the helpers or available staff take it up.

It's all a matter of trying to be more welcoming-looking to new/potential players before we serve them to Imms and I think that was Laeris's point.

I will be seasoning my brain in case I'm wrong, however.

*If we ever make a new FAQ, that -so- needs to be in there.

[Miee]

Oh.

*sigh*  Do I have to strike out my last post now Bessie?

Goddamn you.  Goddamn you to HELL.  HELL I SAY! :twisted:

[sarahjc]

I honestly don't think "find out IC'ly" is a bad thing to say.. When that is all that is said yes. That does not help. However there is nothing wrong with guiding newbies towards the docs, they are written for a reason.

I mean I ask, "Where can I get water.." It's a simple question.. and sometimes a hard one to find out by myself.

Maybe a good answer to this would be, "There are water vendors in game in random areas, your best bet is just to ask a player in game.

Instead of  "Find out IC.."

I agree that just saying "Find out IC" is very lazy and unhelpful. But guiding without giving the answer an to an easy question I think -is- the correct way. The staff has put in the time to write the docs and there are helpers to help guide you, and there are things that you may learn and experience by asking in Character.

Or when someone asks, "Why are there so many sandstorms, it sucks that I can't hunt.."

Maybe the right answer is, "There is documentation on that here" and then point at a link. Many questions like this can be answered by reading the basic documentaion.

Instead of  "It is a harsh world."

I agree that elitist attitudes do not help the new player base adjust and honestly, if you can't be helpful don't answer a question. Nothing good can come out of that except another player giving up while we push for a bigger player base. But I don't think that constantly giving answers away is the right thing to do either.

Edited cause I should.

[Bestatte]

Oh.

*sigh*  Do I have to strike out my last post now Bessie?

Goddamn you.  Goddamn you to HELL.  HELL I SAY! :twisted:

Moral of the story:

You do not need to be an IMM to eat brainz.

That is all.

[Angela Christine]

Did anyone post the link to the helpfile FAQ yet?  Just in case, here it is:  http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?faq


I think that if you are feeling burned out or can't think of anything nice to say to the lastest person to ask a question you've seen many times, then your best bet may be to simply ignore it.  The old saw may apply here, "if you haven't got anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all."  Trying to score points by saying something sarcastic or "funny" at the expense of a newbie is really . . . unclassy.  Even if you do not respond, somebody else probably will, and that person may be in a better mood than you today.

Posting links to helpfiles or old topics is ok too.  It isn't as friendly as a personal response, but it does give them the tools to find the answer.  It takes longer than doing nothing, but is often faster than writing a long post explaining the situation in detail.


There are some harmless phrases that have become hot buttons through over-use and misuse.


Find out IC  -- First, many newbies may not even know what the heck you mean.  Initials are not useful for newbies.  IC isn't even precisely correct, "in game" would make more sense than "in character," especially if the problem is not an in character problem (like not knowing where to find a grocery store in your hometown).  Any time you tell someone to find out in game, you should give them at least a little hint about how you would go about finding out in the game.

Deal with it -- This just sounds like "fuck you".  If that is all you have to say, don't bother.  Now if you are willing to offer stratagies for dealing with it, that is good.

Welcome to Armageddon - Translation: "I hope you die, fucktard."  If you really want to _welcome_ someone, I suggest saying "welcome to the game" instead, because it doesn't have any traumatic mantis head associations.  For some reason  "Welcome to Armageddon" as a phrase gets my back up more than any of the other over-used phrases, maybe because it  is often used as an insult disgused as a friendly welcome.


Angela Christine

[da mitey warrior]

The amount of knowledge and information you need to play the game is so immense you really can't blame most newbies for not reading all of it.  I bet if you compiles all the helpfiles, all the pages on the website plus everything else you'd have a book the size of a small novel.  And even then, there are alot of details which a newbie would be hazy on because they don't know the context about when the command is used.

For example, when I was a newbie it took me literally 2 weeks and maybe 20-30 hours playing time to figure out how to put money into a container.  I'm sure there's a helpfile mentioning how to do it somewhere, but even today I don't really know which one has it.

Most of us don't read the whole user manual before using a computer program, and most newbies should be forgiven for asking a few questions.

[Bestatte]

I don't think anyone here is arguing about that mitey warrior. I know I"m not. I was a clueless newbie just like everyone else when they first started playing Arm.

The difference between me and people whose questions annoy me, is that they're the ones who don't even TRY to find the answers out before asking. I think I've stressed that enough here and in other threads. If you tried for 2 RL weeks to find out how to put money in a container, heh - you should've asked long before that. The point is, you tried to find out on your own FIRST. You failed - and no one can fault you for that. As you say - the website is enormous.

We now have that handy google-search link, that we didn't have before (or at least, no one posted how to do it before). There's even MORE of a reason for people to check stuff out first before asking now than previously, and even less opportunity for them to claim they looked and didn't find anything.

There are parts of the website that are hidden in obscurity, and many of us have been trying to make suggestions for improvement on that. But we're not talking about obscure stuff. We're talking about things like "How come no one is being friendly to my half-breed?" or "I didn't succeed in stealing from that NPC, how come the soldiers killed my character?" or "I passed out while trying to use the think-net and someone killed me while I was passed out. It isn't fair and I wanna know how come I can't get a rezz!"

These are all things that are explained, in detail, in the sections of the website dedicated to new players, and players of characters with skillsets they haven't tried before. It is the courteous thing for players to *attempt* to find these answers for themselves before running to the GDB or asking in game to have the answers handed to them. Attempt - try - and most of us will attempt - and try - to go out of our way to help you. Refuse to attempt - try - and I, for one, will let you sink or swim on your own.

[Agent_137]

I was the good noob who spent more hours reading the docs than my first character survived.

But I still try to answer questions as the come.

But if they're questions that are answered somewhere in the docs, I'll tell them how to find that doc.

If there's already an extensive thread on that question, I'll tell them so, and then point out the search command.

If it's a question best answered by asking in game, I'll say that.

If it's a relatively new question that I haven't seen before, I'll give it a couple of seconds thought and then make up shit as i type.

There's a balance between coddling noobs and being a dick to them. That balance is called being polite and friendly.

[Avril]

Whatever you tell a newbie, or someone else who risks to be subjected to "find out IC" or "Armageddon is harsh", should be informative and useful to that person. Don't reply just to satisfy your posting urges. If you feel like saying something but have nothing to say, let it go. That said, the most recent newbie threads I've seen have received some very good replies - much of the strife seems to have been about fairly well-established issues.

When you give one of those annoying answers, you prevent yourself from exploring the deeper sides of the question. For instance, the mention that there are big sandstorms in the world... There are some things that the docs don't show, such as the fact that storms miraculously die down at the end of every half-week, or after there's a crash. When you're asked why the templar had you beaten up for forgetting to bow... Let's remember that while these people are described as corrupt and ruthless in the docs, everyone has his own interpretation of what "corrupt and ruthless" means. If something has been covered by the docs, ignorance might not always be a good excuse (though it is, most of the time - I read the docs over and over again years ago when I started playing, and forgot most of them), but misunderstading or being confused about what the docs say... That's another story.

The search function, while useful for those who have an idea what keywords to look for, will give newbies absolutely no help, particularly if they're having problems with the syntax. Keep this in mind, and try to link to useful posts whenever you're too lazy or frustrated to answer yourself. When you invite someone to read the docs, do it because he might stumble onto information that he never would have considered searching for, but that would end up being exceptionally useful later on. Make sure he would actually *want* to read the docs before you invite him, eh?

Here's an idea that might help out newbies: provide a sort of slideshow in the hall of kings, either as cycling room echoes or paintings. It would include stuff like a templar beating up someone in public while commoners looked on, magickers receiving nasty stares, elves trying to con people... Perhaps not slideshows, but stuff like the sensate stones in Planescape, through which you could feel exactly what the character in question was feeling. To add to the coolness factor, these depictions/sensate-stuff would all be pulled out of old RP logs, and shown as if they were actual role-play scenes. Then again, if people overlook even these hints and nudges, the forum silt horrors might crawl up and drag us all into another round of bitching.

In fact, let's stop wondering how we should treat questions and ask ourselves how we should treat worthless, self-gratifying answers. Personally, I vote for Bestatte to be put on a leash. And one of those wire mouth-guard thingies.
And a kinky leather outfit.

[Krath]

I don't think anyone here is arguing about that mitey warrior. I know I"m not. I was a clueless newbie just like everyone else when they first started playing Arm.

The difference between me and people whose questions annoy me, is that they're the ones who don't even TRY to find the answers out before asking. I think I've stressed that enough here and in other threads. If you tried for 2 RL weeks to find out how to put money in a container, heh - you should've asked long before that. The point is, you tried to find out on your own FIRST. You failed - and no one can fault you for that. As you say - the website is enormous.

We now have that handy google-search link, that we didn't have before (or at least, no one posted how to do it before). There's even MORE of a reason for people to check stuff out first before asking now than previously, and even less opportunity for them to claim they looked and didn't find anything.

There are parts of the website that are hidden in obscurity, and many of us have been trying to make suggestions for improvement on that. But we're not talking about obscure stuff. We're talking about things like "How come no one is being friendly to my half-breed?" or "I didn't succeed in stealing from that NPC, how come the soldiers killed my character?" or "I passed out while trying to use the think-net and someone killed me while I was passed out. It isn't fair and I wanna know how come I can't get a rezz!"

These are all things that are explained, in detail, in the sections of the website dedicated to new players, and players of characters with skillsets they haven't tried before. It is the courteous thing for players to *attempt* to find these answers for themselves before running to the GDB or asking in game to have the answers handed to them. Attempt - try - and most of us will attempt - and try - to go out of our way to help you. Refuse to attempt - try - and I, for one, will let you sink or swim on your own.

I guess I do not agree with this at all mainly because you are assuming the newbie at hand did not
attempt to try it. I do not think, nor do I agree with a newbie having to post that they have attempted
try to work something out. If a questioned is asked, answer it kindly in the same fashion which you
would like your questions answered. If it is too ic, let the newbie know hey, it is too IC to discuss
on the board, for further information ask a helper.  I do not know what the problem is with people
having to type out just a little bit more than just "Find out IC" or "Arm is a harsh mud". Screw that,
help them, and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Yes we know the website is enormous, and yes EVERYTHING you need is there, but someone brand
new to the game is not going to know where to look, or even where to start looking. Moving on to
the search  command, it is highly, HIGHLY inaccurate, as I will say because I have attempted
to use it myself and it give you about two hundred different post with that word, or group of words in
a post. Yes the Half-breed thing is explained in the docs, Yes it is explained why if you die
for certain reasons you do not get a rezz, but they are not as experienced as us nor do they even
know where to begin to look. Could you imagine doing a search for Ressuraction? There would
be too many damn post and they would likely lose interest in the game. So, IMHO, if you can not
answer the question politetly and give an explaination as to WHY you answered in ASK IC, or
Look in the docs(without giving a link), just do not answer.

My thoughts.