Clan-Restricted Crafting

[Larrath]

As far as I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but there appear to be items that can only be crafted by players in particular clans.

I do not think this is realistic.  Sure, there is the matter of trade secrets, but let's look at this scenario:

Bob the Merchant is an independent, 40 day armormaking twink.  He can make a steel codpiece and diamond scalemail...but somehow, he just can't grasp the concept of picking up some obsidian and carving it into a breastplate in the same manner Salarr does.

Amos the 3 day Armormaking Ranger, however, is a Salarri guard, and he can make these breastplates without any problem.


The same can go for clothes.  Let's say that you have a plain Tuluki kilt that is made from a length of linen.  I see absolutely no reason why a skilled Allanaki tailor should not be able to replicate that item.

Cooking items specific to, say, House Kadius, also apply.  Let's say it's a boiled egg, or a little pastry...is this something that will send the best Borsail cooks cowering in fear from the sheer complexity?

Here is what I propose:

Clan specific items will be possible for non-clanned people to craft, but the delay will be longer, the chance of failure will increase, and a higher skill level would be required in order to attempt making the item.  This will reflect that your character does not possess the clan's know-how, but is improvising and attempting to copy it.


This ability will not be possible for all levels of crafted items, however.  Some things truly are well kept trade secrets that nobody is going to find out on their own.
Therefore, making items from other regions/clans will only be possible for the lower tier of crafting difficulty (assuming there are three).

Medium-range crafts will be possible to mimick if the player possesses the item they want to make on their person.  This will also be done at increased delay and difficulty, and an Analyze roll will be added to the equation.
[It may also be a good idea to have this mimick option for super easy crafts for people who do not have the required skills.  I'm talking crude sandcloth vests here].

High-end crafts will be impossible to copy.


This will also require some modification for the Analyze skill.  As far as I am aware, it is not currently possible to analyze an object from a different region/clan...again, perhaps a penalty can be imposed, but I don't see why properly analyzing the items needed to make a feather-adorned sandcloth diaper should be so difficult.

Analyzing extremely easy crafts without having the proper skills may also be needed.


Oh, and finally...I think that if a character previously belonged in a clan and left or got kicked out, they should retain the crafting knowledge.  It simply makes more sense that way.

And that's it.  Opinions?

[Maybe42or54]

This is a nice idea, but I do believe it gets rid of another reason to join a clan.

[Bestatte]

It makes equal sense to RP the "proprietary" item as having the official seal, mark, or burnish placed on the item, using a tool that only that clan has access to.

Salarr make objects you can assume has a special stamp that allows the crafter to stamp the mark directly into the leather. That stamp is not available anywhere, to anyone, at any price. It's attached permanently to the wall of the crafting building...or carved into the skin of the crafter. Or something.

Same goes for any other proprietary item. It has less to do with trade secrets (though some things are, as you already said)..than it has to do with a virtual mark that identifies the design as being specific to a particular clan.

[EvilRoeSlade]

There really should be a barrier between the things independents are making and the things houses are making.  It just makes sense.

[Larrath]

A virtual mark?  If the mdesc mentions a Salarri insignia, it has a Salarri insignia.  Do you want to add a Salarri insignia to your independent items?  By all means, go right ahead; just make sure you have a good explaination when Salarr comes a-knocking.

I assume you are referring to the ability to tell the origin of some items...and I will say this again; if you are mimicking the item, I think the style should be similar.  I think it will be a wonderful ability for elves; hawk cheap knock-offs and claim they're Salarri make.
Barker Pens, anyone?

Maybe if you have a good enough ability to tell who made what, you will be able to see this:

"This item bears the mark of Salarri craftsmanship, but seems to have originated from elsewhere".

It may be good to add mention to this somehow when attempting to craft; it was mentioned to be a bad idea to have many duplicates of the same items with tiny insiginia variations.  It also seems like a bad idea to make a 'stamping' object that will add a generic line to an item's mdesc, marking it with Salarr.

As long as there's mention, I say, this should be possible.  Or something.


And as for a reason to join a clan, by the way...well, you won't be able to make the real good items, and it will be significantly harder for you to make these.  Salarr might seriously get pissed at you for selling 'their' items...and I don't think people should really join clans just in order to craft some more things.  It's just silly.

[Bestatte]

The insignia is the mark of an EMPLOYEE - not the origin of make.

That little tagline when you "value" something (assuming you have the skill) tells you that something is of a certain clan. This tagline - I am saying - is how you can ROLEPLAY your assumption that there is a special mark or weave or stamp or SOMETHING that only the clan crafters have access to.

If you want to make a cheap knock-off on someone else's stuff, submit the object. It's been done in the past and I'm sure it can be done still. If you want to make something that is made with the exact specifications - including that virtual mark I suggest exists - then join that clan and make it.

I don't see why it has to be changed at all. It isn't broken as far as I'm concerned.

[Larrath]

I'll give you one reason.

There currently exists a cooking item that can only be made be members of a particular clan.  This particular item, however, is not something very complex.  In fact, any cook worth his salt should be able to make a dozen of these things without breaking a sweat.

That's it.  I'm sure that there are many other items such as this, and it does not make any logical sense.

I also think knock-offs of Salarri or Kadian or whatever items would be fairly common, and I just believe this can add to play.

Also, let's not forget that not all Salarri items have the insignia.  Being able to find out who made an item is a skill *because* there are not always prominent markings on it.  Any idiot can look at the wyverns on the abas and say that they belong to House Borsail.

[Bestatte]

And anyone can look at craftable items sold exclusively to this or that Noble house, and find out that it bears the CRAFTING mark of Salarr or Kadius. Even when the design has the INSIGNIA of the noble house in its description.

If there's an object that you feel should not be proprietary - such as that cooking item, then typo it or send an e-mail to mud and explain to them. In some cases it's just an oversight and can be fixed. In other cases, the recipe for creating an object is precise and that recipe isn't given out to people outside the clan, for any reason, ever.

[Larrath]

Like I said a handful of times, Bestatte, the MARKING sign can be imitated.  As far as I am aware, Kadius was not hiring defilers that make magickal silver pins that project the Kadian gemstone into the air whenever someone touches it.

A symbol of such and such crafting is a particular stitching style, or maybe a way to embroider that's a little different, or shaping the bone into armor from a single angle...or whatever.  It CAN be imitated, with difficulty; which is exactly what I propose.


I do not think a crafter has to be employed by a House in order to imitate them.  It is silly, and submitting fifteen items that look kinda like Salarri goods but aren't really is redundant, wasteful and bound to annoy at least one staff member.

And if we are going to typo/bug every craftable that could logically be made by non-clanners...it will be faster to comb through the database and leave the dozen special items with the clans, and release everything else.   A lot of pointless monkeywork, and my suggestion still gives clan an edge in crafting their items.

[Bestatte]

If anyone with enough skill could eventually make anything that anyone else could craft, then there would be no need for Salarr, Kadius, or Kurac. And just because you can make that stitch that says "Kadius" doesn't mean you have access to the exact shade of chartreuse that makes it a Kadian mark. If it isn't that exact shade, then it isn't Kadius. Not "almost" Kadius..either it is, or it isn't. And this is clearly distinguishable by the value skill.

[Larrath]

The Houses are not rich because they sell five 10,000 'sid items in a year; they are rich because they sell two hundred thousand vests and helmets every year.

Yes, everyone without enough skill CAN make almost everything, and this is what I want the code to reflect!

And I already referred to that "almost" Kadius quality.  Scroll up and read.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Actually, I disagree with the idea that any crafter can make anything.  Are individuals these days capable of making everything that corporations are capable of producing?  Realistically, no.  Let's take an extreme example of say, an F-16.  Lockheed-Martin can churn one out in a fairly reasonable time.  One guy by himself with all the raw materials probably could not.

As for older civilizations and trade secrets, since we still don't know how Greek fire was made, and frankly, no one but the Greeks ever did, I don't see tribal crafts as being unrealistic either.  No one but the Romans used the pilum design.  It's a good design, too, one that another civilization such as the Gauls could have made.  But they didn't.

[Larrath]

Again, I will repeat what I said previously.


First of all, all clan-only items will be limited to four tiers.  This will be done automatically if it is implemented, using the numerical difficulty value of the craft.

Ridiculously easy items:
Everyone can try, even people without the skill, though they will suffer a hefty penalty.  This is for the sack-like sandcloth vests that any monkey could possibly make.  Clan-items of this level will also be possible for everyone to try, but at an increased difficulty.

Easy items:
Let's say that the item is a Salarr sword with delay 5 and difficulty 3.  A swordmaking crafter will be able to attempt the same sword, but with delay 7 and difficulty 6.
If 2 skillpoints are needed for a clanner to try this craft, the indie will need 3 or 4.


Medium items:
It is possible for the indie to attempt making this item if they have a finished version.  Delay 10 will become delay 14, difficulty 7 will become 10, and there will be an additional Analyze roll added to the crafting roll.  This should not be easy.

Hard items:
Impossible to replicate.

I also suggested that former clan members will be able to craft like current clan members, since they were given this know-how.

[wizturbo]

This is how I see it.  The merchant houses have developed some rather secret processes for how they make things.  House Salarr might have a secret tanning fluid they use, or have mastered heatening weapons to a certain temperature so they blackened for strength, but don't become brittle.  There are countless things like this, keep in mind these merchant houses have been in the crafting business for MANY MANY MANY years.  

I DO believe that very good merchants should be able to reverse enginneer salarri/kadian designs.  However, these items would be fiercely guarded by their respective houses, and wouldn't take kindly to having their intellectual property stolen.  Sure you could do it, but you try to sell their items in the open market and they find out about it, you might need to watch you back for a dozen assassins hired to 'chat with you'.

[Angela Christine]

I don't think it is unreasonable for some people to have secret recipies.  In real life regular people have secret family recipies for such ordinary things as stuffing, cookies, and peach cobbler.  Other people can make peach cobbler, but not exactly the same peach cobbler as Granny makes.  Sure, a master pastry chef (or even a really good cook) could work out the recipie from a sample just by taste and trial and error, but most cooks won't get it exactly right.  Maybe she uses wildflower honey for sweetening rather than sugar or the more common clover honey, and that small difference makes a difference in the flavor that very few people would ever be able to track down.  The crafting code is simple so maybe all you need to make peach cobbler is a peach and a handful of flour, but that doesn't mean that ICly you aren't really using a dozen complex  ingredients.

Likewise, the major Houses and other clans have had centuries to perfect their methods.  You may be a good Xcrafter, or even a great Xcrafter, but chances are you have not spent centuries perfecting your craft.  You also don't have access to all the same little un-coded ingredients that the clans have, some of which would be considered exotic.  Major merchant houses have outlets in every major outpost of civilization, Noble houses armies of servants and often control little outposts of their own, and tribals _live_ in exotic locations that are undoubtably home to rare, exotic ingredients that they have been using for a long time.  Just because you are a good crafter doesn't mean you'll know how to get those exotic ingredients, or how best to use them when you do get them.  For example, most stonecrafters don't know how to find a steady supply of white alabaster, and since they rarely or never work with it they probably won't be able to do the exact same things that a stonecrafter who works exclusively with white alabaster can do.  Salaar has room for many vats of diverse tanning fluids, most independants don't have space for more that a couple jugs of the stuff, so they won't be able to replicate the same variety of leathers.  And since Salaar makes hundreds of bone swords in a year, they must have hundreds of sword-sized pieces of bone to work with each year, and maybe only 1 out of 100 of those pieces of bone is suitable for making a super Salaar-only amber-studded greatsword, a guy that has never worked for Salaar wouldn't know exactly what kind of bone he needed to start, much less what processes he would go through to accurately replicate the Salaar design.  Is a sane crafter really going to make it his life's work to replicate a few propritary designs, when he can make just as much money making more generic items (and incidentally avoid the wrath of a powerful organization)?  Personally, I doubt it.

If there is a proprietary item that  is simple enough that "anyone" should be able to make it then either it shouldn't be a proprietary item, or there should be a similar non-proprietary version (there might be a secret ingredient that isn't widely known in the proprietary version).  Submitting a new-but-similar item may really be the best way to go.


If your character really does want to make it his life work to counterfiet propriatry designs (maybe he's a dwarf) then I'd log your efforts and ask for some sort of special dispensation.  They could give you the ability to craft those goods despite your lack of clan affiliation, or give you the ability to to craft special counterfiet items that bare a striking resemblance to the propriatary items.  It would take a while and a lot of IC work, but stranger things have been granted to long-lived PCs.


AC

[jmordetsky]

I'm not for the idea of clan specific crafting. I'm for the idea that a clan specific crafts could possibly function as a seperate skill..?

For example there could be a "sword_making", and "salarr_[sdsec]_sword_making". A clan crafter would need a skill for each clan only item....(more on this below)

Reason being, as much as there are secret recipes etc, etc. Whats to stop a wealthy crafter from paying a salarri crafter on the sly and learning the secrets? Or from buying a sigil stamp, special materials, special tool? etc?

Nada really. This doesn't really consider reverse engineering something...but I think that is much harder to code.

EDIT: (additional thoughts) Clan only crafters should be able to create clan only items through special knowlege (aka a seperate skill)  and special materials...which are easily obtained by the house but no so for the indy.

For example:

Indy A, a master crafter with sick stats assesses a piece of salarri gear and determines it could be made of large piece of gortok bone, a hunk of obsidian, a ginka fruit and some rope.

Indy A goes to great lengths to obtain said items but can't quite figure out how to put them together just the way the Salarris have.

Indy A dips into his pocket and on the sly (rp opportunity anyone?) hires a salarri crafter B to teach him.

Salarri crafter B explains to Indy A the technique for building the weapon but also implies that said item requires a salarri crafting tool called a woobly. Salarri crafter B wants no part of stealing the woobly for indy A.

Indy A now has the knowlege (skill - via teach?) to craft said salarri item, and hires burglar C to break into salarr and steal the woobly.

Choose your ending:

burglar C breaks in, gets the woobly and our hero Indy A  makes the item....

or

burglar C gets caught squeals his brains out on indy A, who meets his end to a salarri hired assassin.

What a system like that would essentially do is create large RP opportunities as people could now "steal" clan trade secrets.

Interesting...to me anyway.[/b]

[X-D]

Having returned last night from a failed attempt to get to atlanta that cost me a bit over $800 and quite a but of frustration. I'll admist to not having read this complete thread.

Now, That said, I've always been against the clan craftables that you can ONLY craft if you have the clan flag, it is unrealistic in many extremes and limits many possible plots.

I also don't agree with the first idea of the thread because I'm all for clan craftables.

I'm sure that maybe some clan has done this, but I think that clan craftables should simply have an ingredient to the recipe that can "basicly" Only be gotten if you belong to the clan. But not a virtial ingredient either like has been suggested.

[sjanimal]

Larrath,

I'm starting to sense frustration at you, so I hope this post helps you some.

I can see your point.  Through a combination of industrial espianoge, crafting experience and ingenuity, it should be possible for a dedicated craftsman to make most items.

So to maintain strict realism, you're right, crafts shouldn't be clan restricted.

But to be fair to the people who are disagreeing with you, I'd like to take their side.  I think using an expanded craft system is fair (for purposes of game balance) to incite people to join clans.  

And you shouldn't think of this as a hard-coded restriction, either.  Because if you decide that you absolutely have to have a few Kadius brand silks or Sallaar brand shields, and you are unwilling to pay for them, my experience has been that the staff is quite willing to get them for you.  

Don't think I'm taking the clann people's sides.  I like to think of myself as the anti-clan poster-child.  However I think we independents should allow them to have a few perks, and this particular perks seems fair.  If we're going to strip Clans of any perks, I can suggest a couple of other perks that are far more tactically relevant.

Hope this has been helpful.  I like your idea, it's not bad.