Inspired by Body Hair: Zalanthan Attractiveness.

[Miee]

(As an aside, boy does that subject sound weird.)

Since the topic of body hair came up and the questions of "What's the Zalanthan normal?  Is it attractive?" and others, I thought I'd start this thread.

In general, I'd imagine the fatter a person, the more attractive.  If that person has enough to eat that much, then clearly they must have something in them that would make them a good mate.  On the other hand, one of my hunter PCs liked men who were strong, capable, and knew the land.  In fact, if it wasn't for my OOC squeamishness at the idea, she would have been all over a certain very famous and long lived PC.  I mean, hot damn was that a strong and capable man.

Basically, if the other PC has certain qualities that would produce good children (from an OOC view)  such as, strength, money, cleverness, a combination there of, or quality X, where X is something I can't think of right now, then my PCs will tend to find that PC attractive.  And sometimes I just go for "You're such a fuck me" or "OK, that sounds good."

Those are my thoughts AND IF YOU DISAGREE J00 A TWINK d00D... I mean, what are everyone else's?  (TWINKS!  TWINKS!  BRAIN-EATING IMMZ!  TWINKS!) :shock:

[Barzalene]

Breathing. Not sick. Clean(ish). Plump. Hydrated. Teeth (having some.)

[Cuusardo]

I would imagine that a healthy tan would be a norm when it comes to attractiveness.  If you aren't a rich fatcat merchant, or of noble blood, then having pale skin would lead others to believe that you aren't exactly healthy.

[Bestatte]

I think it would depend on who's doing the "beholding."

A city-based human of means might consider pale skin as attractive, while a rinth-rat might consider anyone whose skin you can see through the filth attractive. A tribal might think pale skin is disgusting or even some abominable mutation.

An elf of any kind would probably think anyone not an elf is too round, too fat, too short to be attractive. Plus round ears - blech.

A half-elf would think whichever "half" they identify with most is attractive, and probably find the other half offensive.

And so on and so forth.

[Larrath]

I definitely agree with the fatitude, first of all.

Double and triple chins, large rears and wobbly arms are all good things.  

Muscularity and having a strong and capable body (that chiselled look with the rippling muscles and broad shoulders) is also an obvious good thing, so that's another good look.


These are basically two ideals, though I assume the muscularity is more a commoner's look while a plump/bloated form is considered 'purer' beauty.


The smaller the ears the better, and a I don't think people would like to have completely hairless body (not counting the face), and this is especially true for the more muscular people, since nobody wants to resemble a mul.

Lanky is fine, but it's not really attractive.

Mutations are generally a turn-off (unless it's something like complexion, eye or hair color), at which case it varies.


Fair skin is *really* good, the lighter the better.  Scars can be good, but it's best without.  Birthmarks that look like the symbol of Nilaz are bad.

Groomed beards and moustaches are good, and long hair is also looking like a good thing, though if you can pull it off with short hair, that's also good.


Blue eyes and blond/red hair is probably better, even though these colors appear more common among PCs than their 'regular' counterparts.

[Avril]

It's worth noting that obesity is not always (or even often) a sign of eating well, but a sign that your body isn't using its food properly. In fact, fatty meats and other foods suitable to a noble generally make a person slimmer than a diet of bread and travel cakes - at least, that's what happens in the real world. Fat means you have trouble running, hunting and whatnot (which is a bad thing, and the reason natural selection made sure humans see excess fat as ugly), whereas "muscular" describes the exact opposite - a powerful body, far more likely to survive and breed. On the other hand, a slight excess of food reserves helps out with bearing a child, which just means people would have a naturally higher threshold of appreciation for feminine fat.

Of course, Zalanthan women are physically identical to men, nevermind the fact that they bear children. Keeping that in mind, the denizens of the known world might reasonably appreciate muscular women, or curvy, sensual men. Still, every living species has its own subtle ways of telling between male and female, so unless they can figure it out by scent, voice or sight, they'll only manage to breed successfully after a lot of mishaps. We could argue that most species use the way to send out mating calls, but that just doesn't happen.

One serious problem with Zalanthan notions of beauty is that there are none. No staff member has ever come out to describe such notions, just like none have bothered to establish any principles about appropriate names. I don't usually bother with, as unless a person really stands out, my characters will always be more interested in his soul. That's not something I can help, not when I see a lot more words than looks.

Also, there's no single kind of beauty to look at. "cute", "pretty", "pleasant" and "attractive" are four very different things - everyone usually has a mix of them, sporting several different kinds of beauty. The childish sort tends to inspire more innocent feelings than the f-me variety, for instance. As long as we know how a healthy human child, adolescent and adult looks like, as well as what features go along with fertility, we can get a pretty valid, though not perfectly accurate, understanding of beauty. There are, however, things that might seem purely random... Neutral mutations that somehow pass off as features of beauty, just like some viruses can pass off as components of the human organism. Stuff like red eyes being attractive, even though they suggest a birth defect.

[Zhaira]

I've only just now thought of this, and I'm not saying this is or how it would be, but I think it's a possibility that a commoner would -not- find a fat partner attractive; or, perhaps, they might watch them from afar, but it isn't the kind of thing they would "go for."  Think of it like your poorly employed, $20,000 making a year guy trying to date a lingerie model.  Sure, she's pretty, but could he -ever- possibly meet her needs?  Unlikely.  Along the same vein, I don't think commoners would go for other overweight commoners, because it would be unlikely that you could support them with all the food they'd require.

Just food for thought, is all.

[Delirium]

I think there is a difference between 'plump and well fed' and 'grotesquely fat'.. the former I could see being very attractive to a Zalanthan.

[Anonymous]

I've only just now thought of this, and I'm not saying this is or how it would be, but I think it's a possibility that a commoner would -not- find a fat partner attractive; or, perhaps, they might watch them from afar, but it isn't the kind of thing they would "go for."  Think of it like your poorly employed, $20,000 making a year guy trying to date a lingerie model.  Sure, she's pretty, but could he -ever- possibly meet her needs?  Unlikely.  Along the same vein, I don't think commoners would go for other overweight commoners, because it would be unlikely that you could support them with all the food they'd require.

Just food for thought, is all.

But since Zalanthas has no real differences between men and women in that regards, wouldn't that mean that a fat commoner would be attractive to a Zalanthan male because that would mean she could take care of him.  And vice versa.

[Miee]

...One serious problem with Zalanthan notions of beauty is that there are none. No staff member has ever come out to describe such notions, just like none have bothered to establish any principles about appropriate names. I don't usually bother with, as unless a person really stands out, my characters will always be more interested in his soul. That's not something I can help, not when I see a lot more words than looks.

...

See, this is really a "What are your thoughts" and idle speculation thread.  Or at least was my intention and the "gulf between intention and execution" is wicked wide.

Still, everyone's bringing up some really good points so far, especially on the uh, "fatitude".

I can't imagine anyone in Zalanthas being grossly fat outside of House Borsail.  Only someone in that rotten, decadent house would even consider aiming to be a Hutt.

Aside from those jerks, if you met say, an independant merchant that has the build of your average RL guy complete with beer belly, I'd say that would be attractive.  Clearly, he's doing well enough to provide himself with that much food, thusly he can provide for you.  Same works for plump females.

I see Zalanthan mating as basically being "If you can provide for me and any spawn we may produce then I want you." be it by sid or by hunting.  This isn't any kind of reccomendation or even a suggestion.  This is just how I play and I was curious how other people did it.

Because you know, I wanna leech off them and their ideas...

[Socko]

Another probable sign of attractiveness, and in general, the well-to-do impression would be that of an even tan, and a few spots of muscle definition instead of general bulk and firmness from your work.

This is, as far as I can remember, how it was in Ancient Rome. If you had time to work out and tan, then you were hot hot couture.

Though it could go the opposite route. The ideal of beauty could be that if someone's buxom and well-rounded with health.. then you're it.

Maybe it could be a combination of both. I haven't got the time to explore this further.

[Ammit]

It's impossible to say. Considering real life, all sorts of people find all sorts of things attractive. We find people who are strong attractive while others find people who're anorexic attractive. Those are two (sorta) opposites that many people will tell you is attractive.

In zalanthas your average human nakkie can find fat people attractive because they have that exotic look (same goes for mutations), whereas people might find muscly people attractive (sorta opposites). Others may not care about the body and only go with what they wear. While others might go for power. Mutations might be considered exotic or the sign of magick and evil. No way to say really You can have fun with it and make your characters change every time

[Cuusardo]

Ammit, did you mean nakkie as in 'naked' or 'nakki'?  

[SanityAssassin]

Good teeth, bright eyes, clear skin, glossy hair, a supple body, and symmetrical features are the universal signs of beauty.  In a word, health is beautiful; this goes for every time and culture I know of.  

Being thin or plump is less important appearance-wise than having a strong, flexible body.  

As for the cultural signs of beauty in Zalanthas...well yes, we could use some guidelines there.  I assume that since the commoners of Zalanthas are malnourished and sunburnt, a robust physique and lighter skin may be associated with attractiveness.  Even though body fat and pale skin imply wealth, you can only take those traits so far before they become unhealthy (and therefore, unattractive).

[Ayashah]

Tastes do vary so the same would probably hold true in game. I tend to have different pcs like different things. If I am a southerner, then my pc would find a northern accent a huge turn off. Sorta like the 'put a bag over their head to do em' sort of mentality. Dont talk or you will ruin it for me! heh Same thing if I am a northerner. Southern accents are a turn off. Who wants to bed with some barbaric animal from the south. I dont always go with that but I have used that as a guideline.

If someone is already 'plump/fat' then they had the sid to get that way. THAT would be attractive as a male/female in my mind. Because that other one HAS the sid!! Show me the money!

As a human - missing all/shaved off all their hair HUGE turn off. Mul-looking thing you! Pointed ears or ANY sort of elven feature might be a turn off though some of my humans have overcome that in time with the other pc spending IC months or years working at it.

Elf - anything not elven...because all know the elves are the bomb! LONG LEGS BABY! Nothing like running behind some leggy elf. RAWR!

Dwarf - anything that doesnt get in the way of the focus. Knock it out, have a ride then leave it stunned and move on.

hehe Just being silly but you know tastes do vary. In RL I rather like bigger men. I dont know. Its the snuggly, not feeling like you are with a boy thing. I have a HUGE things about hands. If a guy has feminine-looking hands, turn off. Big hands...mmmm can picture those cupping *cough*  well anyways. Each person has certain things that can arrouse or not arrouse and they might not even make sense.

[SanityAssassin]

Yes, personal tastes vary Ayashah.  However, we're trying to determine the cultural signs of beauty on Zalanthas.   You can generalize such things without locking everyone into assigned roles.  I don't think iron-bound specifics are necessary or desirable.  Rather, vague guidelines appropriate to the cultures, and especially races, of Zalanthas would be useful.  To determine this, we need to step out of what our cultures see as attractive and try to piece together something that fits the setting.

I feel this topic is important since it helps define the values and 'feel' of a culture.  Fashion plays a role in this, since it tends to highlight traits a culture finds attractive (and cover the traits it doesn't).  I'll throw out some ideas, but I'd like to hear what the veterans have to say.

•   Health is a given, as is the universal sign of beauty throughout all times and cultures.  Youth is often included with this, since young people tend to be healthier than old people.  This distinction is less apparent in the modern era.  In the past, the hoi polloi would blossom in their teens; by thirty hard work, accident, disease, malnutrition and childbirth has taken a heavy toll.  If you've ever seen very poor people from a harsh, third world country you'll know what I mean- you'll be hard pressed to find someone attractive over thirty.

•   Is androgyny is valued on Zalanthas?  Is Zalanthas a sexually conservative setting?  If not, the sex characteristics of men and women would probably be desirable and accentuated with clothing.  Female: slender ankles, graceful neck, dainty hands and feet etc.  Male: broad shoulders, lean muscle mass, large hands and feet, etc.

•   Large breasts are mostly a 20th Century obsession in the West.  I suspect large breasts are viewed as very proletariat on Zalanthas, fit for wet nurses and farmers' wives. I envision the Classical female form as the ideal in this setting; small, pert breasts, a pronounced derriere, and possibly slightly plump.

•   Men's hair- shaggy longhairs with beards, or short and clean-shaven? This probably depends on region and social class.  Over 90% of men in the West have had long hair and beards, but short hair and a clean shaven look may be more appropriate for Zalanthas. Those who can afford it go to a barber.

•   Women's hair- long hair may be a sign of status since one has to maintain it and such.  Rugged, working class women (esp. ranger and warrior types) would probably crop it short out of practicality.

•   A lack of body hair is probably attractive, hearkening to a day in when shaggy mammals died off from heat exhaustion.  Ancient Egyptian, Greek and Roman women often removed body hair.  Homosexual men in Ancient Rome also practiced this.  I can imagine the upper classes of Zalanthas keeping the tradition alive.

[Ayashah]

Which is exactly what I was doing, SanityAssassin, giving my opinion on what might be culturally acceptable or not and what I genernally go by which is what the thread is about.  I wasnt locking anyone into an assigned role. So please dont read more into my post than what it was. My thoughts and how I deal with things, along with some attempt at being amusing.

I do think in your post you are bringing more of a RL ideal in with your thoughts on what would probably be attractive on a male/female. Since females and males are equal in all things on ARM it wouldnt necessarily be just females with slender ankles/long necks (elf...eeeeeeeeew) but then males with slander ankles and long necks to be attractive to females if they were into dominating an obviously weaker looking mate. One they could control.

That generalization on what might be attractive was kind of based on a concept of one sex being weaker and the other stronger. I do agree with the health opinion you gave being something that many would find attractive. But since I have played this game for 6yrs, most trend towards the pretty, petite female with pale skin and the buff male with large, bulging muscles so it's hard to get that as being attractive out of people's heads.

[SanityAssassin]

I wasn't slamming your post- and mine was simply guesswork.  Going over my post, I concede it came across as smarmy- my apologies.

Are you saying that one's dom-sub role in Zalanthas determines what you're attracted to?  Interesting, I never considered that.  I don't think there's ever been a culture like that on Earth, so it's a bit of stretch for me to imagine.  The implications are interesting- people look for an effeminate mate to dominate or a powerfully built one to be dominated by?  I'd like some clarification.

Health as the universal trait of beauty is not an opinion, it's a fact.  It is the only trait that signifies physical attractiveness throughout all times and cultures.  Everything else is culture and conditioning.

[Bestatte]

I played a character who had some pretty strong opinions on the matter:

Her opinion was for both men and women equally, there was no difference which gender it was.

Long hair on head = attractive

Leg hair and armpit hair (though I never saw anyone RP the existence of such) = attractive

Hairlessness = unattractive

Pale skin = a sign of sickness, possibly contagious. The physical manifestation of the madness that infects the mind of the city-born.

Skin not matching any "natural" flesh-tone hue = mutant = icky

Dark skin = attractive in general, but VERY dark/black skin was the more attractive hue of the spectrum

Body types:

Bulky muscles on men or women = unattractive and not very practical. It's gotta be pretty hard to scratch your crotch when your arm muscles prevent you from lowering your arm far enough.

Obesity = unattractive - a sign of slovenliness and sloth.

Emaciated = unattractive = a sign of apathy of one's own health and lack of intelligence/common sense regarding finding food to eat.

A plump body (not obese, just plump) = attractive

Slender/svelte = attractive

Flawless skin = extremely UNattractive, might as well be obese.

Scarred skin = attractive, shows signs of actually living life rather than sitting on the porch watching everyone else live it for you.

Wrinkled skin/aged skin = the absolute height of beauty. Nothing is more exotic and awe-inspiring than seeing an old man or woman walk in the door.

[Armaddict]

I think you guys are degrading the human mind and what it finds attractive too much.

Flawless skin being unattractive because it says they don't work?  I don't think humans on zalanthas have sunk that far towards a purely instinctual level.

The humanoid races aren't beasts, not even on Armageddon.  Do -you- look at people and say, "Oh no, he doesn't have calloused hands, he doesn't work well enough"?

Yes, certain traits will mean different things on Zalanthas than from earth.  However, that doesn't mean it's all of a sudden going to be -unattractive-, just because the world is harsh.

An example is body type.  It shows nothing about habits or diet, really.  It can be influenced, but body type is largely genetic, with three main body types that you -inherit-.  Changing this body type can be extremely difficult.  Looking at an obese person and thinking they're automatically lazy is the same as doing so on earth...it's ignorant.  There are a good number of cases where it's true, particularly in America, but making it a -rule- of behavior is downright wrong.

Skin colors being 'off' is unattractive?  If any of you ever read comics, you can find some definite 'off-color' characters, but some of them look pretty damn attractive, for a piece of art.

I don't think this is an area that can be generalized.  Just as in real life, different people like different things.  There's no 'rule' of attractiveness, merely different tastes from individual to individual.

Just reading over the thread and seeing a little bit of...oversimplification that made humans on Zalanthas seem more reptilian than anything else.

[Ayashah]

Are you saying that one's dom-sub role in Zalanthas determines what you're attracted to?  Interesting, I never considered that.  I don't think there's ever been a culture like that on Earth, so it's a bit of stretch for me to imagine.

LOL

I had to read that a couple of times and I dont know where in my post you picked up me being attracted to dom-sub roles in Zalanthas. Thats funny! Hmm, or did you mean you as a general 'everyone on Zalanthas?

There has been many cultures that viewed women as chattel and/or weaker. Many females today still feel they 'have' to have a man/bf at all times to be complete. In your post you had showed what might make the female 'weaker' with characteristics for being attractive and males 'stronger' with the characteristics that might be attractive.

Dom-sub doesnt always mean the images it brings. Someone standing over another with a whip and the other crawling about the floor trying to please. On ARM you see a lot of the helpless bird syndroms. The delicately made female that the big male has to protect and support. With equality in the roles, it wouldnt be out of place for the opposite. A strong woman protecting her delicately built boytoy and providing support. So I just dont agree with the delicate look being just attractive on females and the strongly built one just being attractive on males.

When one holds the purse strings/protection/support of another, they are in a dominate position over their 'weaker' mate. I would think most on Zalanthas, knowing that death comes anytime and quickly, wouldnt want to be 'delicate' because without their dominate supporter they are floating on the Silt Sea without a paddle.

I think you guys are degrading the human mind and what it finds attractive too much.

Not every individual on ARM is human...the pcs I mean. So what might be found attractive for one race wont for another. I am not trying to degrade anything but providing an opinion as I view the issue of attractiveness on Zalanthas.

[Teleri]

Because Zalanthas is such a harsh place, the most attractive mates for either sex would be the most likely to be healthy, provide security and sustenance, and not kill you.  Humans would likely see people who are too tall and thin as being suspiciously elf-like, and thus not attractive.  Elves would probably not prefer a short elf or one with an abnormal amount of mass to him or her, as it may suggest human blood.  Judging from how half-breeds are looked down on, nobody would want to take the chance that they were mating with someone of slightly impure blood.  Of course, there are those "perverts" out there, or those who look into the persona/mind of these people and discover something more attractive.  Just like in real life, when you see an ugly dude with a hot chick, it happens in Arm as well.

Humans would likely prefer someone without any abnormalities, unless it's a ton of muscle or the greater percieved ability to provide for their children.  Intelligence would likely not be preferred by the typical commoner, but by merchants.  After all, who wants someone who's smarter than you arguing with you all the time because you're dumb?  Baldness or lack of hair would likely not be desired, as that suggests something of a dwarf.  The more average looking the human in our eyes, probably that's what's more attractive to a Zalanthan human, unless their abnormality assists in survival.

Dwarves would likely prefer a great deal of muscle, without a lot of height.  The shorter, the better, and the wider, the better.  Somebody appearing as if they won't get in the way of their focus would be attractive, but someone with an opposing focus would be most unattractive to a dwarf.  Hair, of course, is ultimately repulsive to them.  

Elves probably would prefer tall beings without a lot of added mass.  Even though extra muscle would help in performing certain tasks, it would slow one down and thus slow their partner down.  Intelligence and a high skill in thievery would probably be most desirable, unless one's partner steals from you...but, that could be considered sexy as well.  For desert elves, other desert elves would be nearly the only option, along with the very rare tribal human.  Everyone else is in the cities, which should keep almost every desert-born tribal elf away.  Opposing tribes just don't mate.

Muls will take what they can get, more often enough, and half-giants can only mate with other half-giants (realistically, though there always is the exception).  Both of these races are ultimately repulsive to most of the other, more common and pure-blooded races.

Half-elves will probably be attracted to whichever side of their heritage they identify with more/accepts them more.  Someone who doesn't accept them would be most undesireable, in all likelihood, but this could change pretty quickly depending on the h-elf's mood.

Gith, mantis, and halflings are pretty much confined to their race due to their violent natures and physiology.  Thus, among themselves, the individual offering the best chance of yielding healthy children would be the most attractive.

Of course, different strokes for different folks.

[SanityAssassin]

I think you guys are degrading the human mind and what it finds attractive too much.

Flawless skin being unattractive because it says they don't work?  I don't think humans on zalanthas have sunk that far towards a purely instinctual level.

The humanoid races aren't beasts, not even on Armageddon.  Do -you- look at people and say, "Oh no, he doesn't have calloused hands, he doesn't work well enough"?

I think Bestatte's post was listing some Zalanthan proletariat values that her character had, not tastes that can be applied to everyone.  Certainly, a lot of people could feel that way on Zalanthas though.  It is much like the poor, working class sections of America where a man wearing a tie and having soft hands is seen as vaguelly effeminate and not trustworthy.

An example is body type.  It shows nothing about habits or diet, really.  It can be influenced, but body type is largely genetic, with three main body types that you -inherit-.  Changing this body type can be extremely difficult.  Looking at an obese person and thinking they're automatically lazy is the same as doing so on earth...it's ignorant.  There are a good number of cases where it's true, particularly in America, but making it a -rule- of behavior is downright wrong.

Obesity is unattractive because it is unhealthy.  Plump or slender is fine, but go too far in either direction and you become unhealthy and therefore, less attractive.  Again, I think she was expressing her character's lower working-class values.

I will not debate the reasons for the Western obesity epidemic in this thread, but I do disagree.      

Skin colors being 'off' is unattractive?  If any of you ever read comics, you can find some definite 'off-color' characters, but some of them look pretty damn attractive, for a piece of art.

When skin colors are 'off' in real life, it means they are diseased.

I don't think this is an area that can be generalized.  Just as in real life, different people like different things.  There's no 'rule' of attractiveness, merely different tastes from individual to individual.

There is only one rule, health and symmetry are attractive.  Everything else is determined by culture and conditioning.  I think everyone's just having fun speculating what the cultures and races of Zalanthas might see as attractive.  Why don't you join us and write what you think?

[EvilRoeSlade]

There's one piece of culture that has been outlined by the staff, and it hasn't been brought up yet.

Tattoos and piercings are considered to be beautiful by Zalanthans.

[Armaddict]

With the off-color skin...yes, in real life, it means they're diseased.   On Zalanthas, odd skin colors are relatively common (relatively).  I don't think anyone would look at someone with bluish skin and automatically say, "They're sick!  Stay away!".

I think it would be more akin to seeing someone in real life who had different colored eyes, even though even that is more rare in real life than different skin tones is in armageddon.  You see it, and it's a little startling, but it doesn't instantly make you discount the person.  Some neurotic types might feel discomfort, but hardly revulsion or disgust.

There is only one rule, health and symmetry are attractive.

So...if this is the case...than rules of attraction would be at least somewhat the same, at least physiologically, on Zalanthas.  You'll still get the ones who look at a potential mate and say, "Nah, can't date him.  Not enough money."  But the idea of it is...they -are- still attractive, as in looking on them causes psychological arousal.  You can still pick and choose for a mate, but that's not attractiveness.  That's being the most eligible bachelor (or bachelorette) for someone's particular wants or desires.

Basically, the way I feel about it...is that humans on Zalanthas would -pretty-  much find things attractive the same way we do.  As long as someone isn't -unnaturally- pale or whatever...looking sickly, basically...then it will be attractive.

[Bestatte]

I think you guys are degrading the human mind and what it finds attractive too much.

Well since most of what you said is almost in direct criticism of my post (as opposed to the rest of "you guys", I'll answer.

Flawless skin being unattractive because it says they don't work?  I don't think humans on zalanthas have sunk that far towards a purely instinctual level.

Flawless skin, to my character was unattractive because as far as my character was concerned it was a sign of someone who has never been in a situation to get themselves scarred. And for my character, this meant a city person. And city people were - to my character, unattractive.

Yes, certain traits will mean different things on Zalanthas than from earth.  However, that doesn't mean it's all of a sudden going to be -unattractive-, just because the world is harsh.

Actually, it does mean it's going to be unattractive. Just ask my character, and she'll explain the whole thing to you.

An example is body type.  It shows nothing about habits or diet, really.  It can be influenced, but body type is largely genetic, with three main body types that you -inherit-.  Changing this body type can be extremely difficult.  Looking at an obese person and thinking they're automatically lazy is the same as doing so on earth...it's ignorant.  There are a good number of cases where it's true, particularly in America, but making it a -rule- of behavior is downright wrong.

Well unfortunately my character wasn't a dietician, nor had she read the latest from the American Medical Journal on diets and body types. She knew what she knew - that people like her were healthy and attractive, and people who weren't like her were not healthy and not attractive. That meant - that people who were obese, to her, were unattractive - and indicated, to her, that these people obviously didn't spend most of their lives from the time they were able to ride, out of cities, protecting their tribes, gathering food and water, hunting and riding day in and day out without a single Nekrete off. Was her opinion based on any kind of fact? Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn't really matter. What matters was this was her opinion, based on her own lifestyle and observations of other lifestyles.

Skin colors being 'off' is unattractive?  If any of you ever read comics, you can find some definite 'off-color' characters, but some of them look pretty damn attractive, for a piece of art.

Elves in comic books are usually attractive, but humans in Armageddon are usually -not- attracted to elves in Armageddon. It's a strawman arguement, and completely invalid.

I don't think this is an area that can be generalized.  Just as in real life, different people like different things.  There's no 'rule' of attractiveness, merely different tastes from individual to individual.

Actually there -is- a rule of attractiveness, as Sanity Assassin pointed out. Health and symmetry are what determines attractiveness, in every culture of humanoids (including simians and other ape-like creatures). The only difference, is what constitutes health on Earth is completely irrelevent to what constitutes health in Armageddon.

[Armaddict]

Well since most of what you said is almost in direct criticism of my post (as opposed to the rest of "you guys", I'll answer.

Heh, sorry.  I had just scanned over the posts until I came to yours, which seemed to at least generally fit in with the opinions I saw before.  Yours is just the one that gave me ideas on what to post on, heh.

Flawless skin, to my character was unattractive because as far as my character was concerned it was a sign of someone who has never been in a situation to get themselves scarred. And for my character, this meant a city person. And city people were - to my character, unattractive.

I was merely commenting on my view of it.  I didn't mean to come across as attacking it or anything...it was just input.  Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

Actually, it does mean it's going to be unattractive. Just ask my character, and she'll explain the whole thing to you.

Yes, it means it will be unattractive -to your character-.  That goes along with the earlier statement that, just as in real life, different people will find different things attractive.  If you go along the lines of the single rule you were talking about, then those pale city folk who are healthy (paleness does not represent sickliness, nor is it insinuated or role-played as having a reputation for it, so there is no reason to think otherwise for the most part) and symmetrical would still be 'attractive' in that sense.

Well unfortunately my character wasn't a dietician, nor had she read the latest from the American Medical Journal on diets and body types.

Sarcasm much appreciated, glad to see someone else who can use it recognizeably, heh.  But, the point is...that without reading those journals, or being a dietician, obesity wouldn't be a sign of unhealthy habits.  There have been plenty of characters and historical figures that were very fit and also overweight.  Then there are those that have seen unhealthy fat people.  Going off of common knowledge, obesity can't be a dead giveaway for being either healthy or unhealthy.

Elves in comic books are usually attractive, but humans in Armageddon are usually -not- attracted to elves in Armageddon. It's a strawman arguement, and completely invalid.

I didn't say anything about comic book elves, nor humans being strongly attracted to elves in Zalanthas.  I said that despite different skin tones, people can still look incredibly attractive.  For a drawing.  It illustrates a point that an odd color does not instantly say 'stay away from that', especially when off-color skin tones are more prevalent on arm than in real life.

The only difference, is what constitutes health on Earth is completely irrelevent to what constitutes health in Armageddon.

So do you consider fitness and health on Zalanthas humans to be different than a healthy real life human?  Trim bodies (not necessarily muscular or slender) with good physiological processes?

[Xamminy]

You see, Armaddict, that psychological thing...that's where the problem arises.  There is a big psychological difference between us and Zalanthans.  Zalanthans were raised Zalanthan, with different prejudices and ideals.

(Editted to add that the rest of this post is not directed specifically at Armaddict, as it may sound at some points.  Anytime the term 'you' is used, it is in the general sense.)

Consider this, people tend to find women that are thin attractive, but not more than two hundred years ago, being plump was considered beautiful.  This is the product of being raised during a time that plump = well fed = money, and people DID find it attractive.  I'm not saying that they liked obese people, but look at the majority of the people depicted in art from the time period.  They were what some people may call 'pleasantly plump.'  Now, on Armageddon, we could assume that that would actually be a way people are raised, considering the fact that only the rich are truly well-fed.

Now, consider that the genders are considered equal amongst the majority of society, worldwide.  (Yes, granted there are tribes/families that favor one gender or the other, but on the whole, gender equality is the norm.)  Not only are they considered equal, we know for fact that they are, in terms of raw stats.  We've been told so by the staff.  The fact that we have a multitude of people playing petite pretty-girls and V-torso'd, muscular men that think that they are playing the ideal of beauty in either gender, are at the least, misguided.  In Zalanthas, we should just as easily have V-torso'd, muscular women looking for petite pretty-boys, and vice-versa, as we have of the former scenario.

Why is this not the case?  Player education.

I have seen few rugged, muscular females in the game.  Fewer still dainty men.  Truly, the only dainty man I ever saw in game was treated poorly and had gender and sexuality-based insults sent his way on a regular basis...which I shouldn't have to say, but will just to keep all the information in one place, is out of place on Zalanthas, there being no prejudice based on sexuality in any tribe/clan/family (besides maybe the want to have the person breed for the tribe/clan/family instead of romp with his/her same-gendered bedsheet playmates).

It is hard to show people that your character has symmetry (which has been prooven to be a high-factor in whether someone is considered attractive or not, even across ethnic groups) in words without it becoming a cumbersome task.  Write your descriptions how you would like, but keep in mind that Zalanthans may have different tastes than you do.  Explore that possibility, I suggest, as it opens you up to a whole new level of understanding the world and its denizens, not to mention could open up whole new avenues of creativity for you.

[Bestatte]

Heh, sorry.  I had just scanned over the posts until I came to yours, which seemed to at least generally fit in with the opinions I saw before.  Yours is just the one that gave me ideas on what to post on, heh.

Groovy, baby.

I was merely commenting on my view of it.  I didn't mean to come across as attacking it or anything...it was just input.  Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

It did, apology accepted.

Yes, it means it will be unattractive -to your character-.  

Which was why I was -very- specific when I referred to one character I had, and was extremely careful not to claim, hint, or otherwise imply that my character's opinion necessarily applied to the rest of the game's characters.

Sarcasm much appreciated, glad to see someone else who can use it recognizeably, heh.  But, the point is...that without reading those journals, or being a dietician, obesity wouldn't be a sign of unhealthy habits.  There have been plenty of characters and historical figures that were very fit and also overweight.  Then there are those that have seen unhealthy fat people.  Going off of common knowledge, obesity can't be a dead giveaway for being either healthy or unhealthy.

1) I'm PMSing. I tend to enjoy sarcasm more this time of month than any other, especially when it's mine.

2) Going off common knowledge *OF MY CHARACTER,* obesity certainly -can- be a dead giveaway for being either healthy or unhealthy. My character was a tribal, in a 3-tribe community comprising well over 1000 members. The "common knowledge" of that tribe was that THEY were healthy. And they were, for the most part, slender, tall, showed visible signs of having lived life rather than watching others live it (meaning a few scars here or there), dark skinned, long-haired. Anything outside that criteria, MY character considered unattractive.

I didn't say anything about comic book elves, nor humans being strongly attracted to elves in Zalanthas.  I said that despite different skin tones, people can still look incredibly attractive.  For a drawing.  It illustrates a point that an odd color does not instantly say 'stay away from that', especially when off-color skin tones are more prevalent on arm than in real life.

Blue skin, green skin, purple lips, crimson hair, white skin, yellow (jaundiced) skin, polkadotted skin, extra skin, missing skin, were ALL considered unattractive to my character, and further, she would be more likely to assume they were sickly and possibly contagious than not. This - was my character's opinion. Not mine, not the opinion of my other characters. Of this one character that I mentioned throughout my entire post.

So do you consider fitness and health on Zalanthas humans to be different than a healthy real life human?  Trim bodies (not necessarily muscular or slender) with good physiological processes?

Health on earth means not passing out when it hits 105 degrees. Becoming rather dead when it hits 150 degrees is not a sign of bad health on earth, it's a sign of normal response. It his, however, a sign of bad health on Zalanthas. Huge muscles and 6-pack abs are considered healthy (in some circles) on earth (thought personally I think it's ugly as hell). Huge muscles and 6-pack abs are often considered very strange on Zalanthas, where the average *healthy* commoner is skinny and not overly muscular.

Fit means something different on earth than it does in Zalanthas. The criteria to determine what is healthy is different, because it's a different world. In Zalanthas, being able to find or buy enough water to keep you from dying of thirst is considered healthy. Compare that with the ability to filter your tapwater or invest in regular bottled spring water deliveries in the privacy of your own house, which actually has a plumbing system, on Earth. Completely different worlds.

[Armaddict]

Consider this, people tend to find women that are thin attractive, but not more than two hundred years ago, being plump was considered beautiful.

This depends on the culture you're coming from.  This is around the time that women were using...uh...corsets?  Those things that squeezed their waist to make them appear thinner.  This is because it was more attractive to the -majority- of men.  Pleasantly plump is perfectly fine, it can be very attractive, but it can also be unattractive, based on other qualities.  For the most part, referring to the plump as attractive because it shows that they are well-fed...this isn't talking about -attractiveness-.  This is talking about logic.  There's a difference.

Someone who's seeking an ideal mate will find plump people more suited to their needs.  It's the same as the 'security' issue that you hear women talking about in real life.  Security raises confidence that a mate can provide for you, thus making them somewhat trustworthy, whatever.  The whole psychology of the matter.

You see, Armaddict, that psychological thing...that's where the problem arises. There is a big psychological difference between us and Zalanthans. Zalanthans were raised Zalanthan, with different prejudices and ideals.

I agree, the psychology would be -vastly- different.  Psychology, however, is completely different and unique in -each- mind.  It's the main difference between psychology and sociology.

Studies have been done on what makes someone attractive, within psychology.  It isn't a vast majority, but there is a definite correlation made between yourself and your parents and who you choose as a mate.  With a good upbringing (this is why it likely isn't a vast majority, in my opinion.  It depends on your view of your parents.), men tend to search for women with similar personality traits as their mother, since their mothers serve as the ideal example of someone who can raise the young effectively.  The same goes for women with their fathers.  I'm not saying everyone wants to fuck their mom, merely that your parents serve as a sort of unconcious 'proof' of which traits are ideal in a mate, which are then instilled as 'attractive' from an early age.

Physically, however...I see little variation.  I don't see many people in harsh, real life upbringings seeing anything different with attractiveness, very often.  Even people from other cultures -generally- attach beauty to somewhat the same standards as we do, -so long as they've been exposed to it-.  My point being...most of the general populace on armageddon -will- have been exposed to most of the situations we're dealing with.

Write your descriptions how you would like, but keep in mind that Zalanthans may have different tastes than you do. Explore that possibility, I suggest, as it opens you up to a whole new level of understanding the world and its denizens, not to mention could open up whole new avenues of creativity for you.

I had thought I was being rather creative with the reasons that this general topic -wouldn't- be much different

I completely acknowledge the fact that Zalanthas is a different world.  However, with human physiology at least -basically- the same, I don't see much reason that the idea would deviate so far away from how things have been.  I can't think of a logical reason that muscly men would become unattractive, or that slender, curvy women would suddenly become unattractive, or that naught but paler skin or a different skin tone would make someone suddenly repulsing.

I don't look at african-americans and think they're ugly because of skin color (Damn, there're some fiiiine women, heh.)  When different skin tone is more common in Zalanthas than here...I don't see much of a difference, especially with no IC rumors or misconceptions that are spread around that indicate different color -does- mean something bad.

I'm probably seeming pretty argumentative, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't think there can be a general 'rule' for what's attractive to someone's character.  You can generalize beauty, but it's always the specifics of each individual that grab your attention.  And with each person searching for different specifics, as a -rule- of the unique mind and it's psychology...there's a very broad interpretation on this subject.  And trying to say that what we hold attractive in RL doesn't apply in arm just seems like a very hasty decision.

[Xamminy]

I never said there was anything to narrow it down.  Truly, the only narrow guideline I gave was someone that was more symetrical would be considered more attractive than someone that was note...there is proof of this in psychological study.

What I said:  the stereotypical tough-guy or dainty-woman roles that many are falling into wouldn't be attractive to all and that exploring the possibilities is a good thing.

[Ayashah]

*cracks her knuckles*

Seems it's time to bring back Druell Jr.

hehe

Just teasing.

Everyone has good points in what would be or wouldnt be attractive and their reasons why. I dont really see it changing what the players are making. You will have those that want to make a man with the six-pack ads and the girls with the slender build and lucious curves. People will still home in on those pcs for their beauty.

Though the docs say they are equal, take a look at most of the clothing for females. The descriptions are for making females look 'slenderer'. With that in mind, it would make one assume that the 'slender' woman is the beautiful one.

Look at the npcs high up in the Houses/clans and you will rarely find one that is not slender and beautiful with knock out curves. This too adds to the sense that one must be the slender, pale, delicate flower to get anywhere.

When a lord takes a concubine or lover, take a good look at the figure of those taken. They are usually very slender, waiflike, etc. Again, a visible reminder of what isnt suppose to be the ideal on ARM, that slender is beautiful.

So, what it comes down to is that if females and males are similarly built then there is a lot more than just the player's main descriptions that need to be changed to overcome the perceived notion that the ultimate male is built with rippling muscles and the ultimate female is petite with big ta ta's.

Just my 2 sids worth

[ashyom]

On the same side of coin, there are plenty of clothes that would serve, for the lack of better term, metrosexual men in-game who wants to show off all their assets well.  
-A

[Xamminy]

Ayashah, there is/was someone that could best be described as slightly plump for the character's race...and gets/got a decent amount of attention for it.

Having seen a fair number of noble NPCs, I can also say that your estimation is not quite correct, Ayashah.  There are plenty of gaunt or fat NPC nobles...plenty.

Also, your point about how people playing nobles take certain types for concubines, you're just backing up my point that players are reinforcing this ideal which may not quite be what the people in Arm would idealize at every level of society.

[Ayashah]

Exactly Xamminy. I wasnt refuting your point on players (imm or regular) taking the slender thing as a concubine or being the ones that set the trend. Also, my post did not say ALL the npcs nor ALL the nobles do the slender, f-me descriptions. But there are a surprising amount of them that do. It isnt just nobles when one says Houses/clans. There are merchant Houses/clans also. I think you are reading things in my post that arent there.

Ayashah, there is/was someone that could best be described as slightly plump for the character's race...and gets/got a decent amount of attention for it.

I dont ever recall posting that those that are plump didnt get any attention so I am not sure where you are going with that comment.

As for the male clothes, there arent that many that I, myself, have seen that try to make a guy's chest look buffer/like a six-pack. There are some but seriously, go look at most of the 'nice' female clothes and you will see the open reference in a lot that have 'slimming' effect or making one look more slender.

My point, as was in my original post, was that there are many things objectwise and npcwise, that also help bring the general feel to the mud that 'slender' is the model female. It isnt all just about players bringing their personal preferences into the game.

edited to add :

But I do see that my use of rarely  in my other post is the culprit. Let me change that to a 'a lot of them' are slender or slender in build, at least those usually brought out in the public's eye.

[ashyom]

All those tight pants must be for something good.

[Ayashah]

All those tight pants must be for something good.

*Drools*

Tight pants

*pants*

*wipes the drool away* Umm, where was I?

[Armaddict]

Are you guys discussing by agreeing with each other?

Wow.  This is an idea that I think you can tell is completely and utterly foreign and exotic to me.  :shock: