Inspired by Body Hair: Zalanthan Attractiveness.

[Bestatte]

I think you guys are degrading the human mind and what it finds attractive too much.

Well since most of what you said is almost in direct criticism of my post (as opposed to the rest of "you guys", I'll answer.

Flawless skin being unattractive because it says they don't work?  I don't think humans on zalanthas have sunk that far towards a purely instinctual level.

Flawless skin, to my character was unattractive because as far as my character was concerned it was a sign of someone who has never been in a situation to get themselves scarred. And for my character, this meant a city person. And city people were - to my character, unattractive.

Yes, certain traits will mean different things on Zalanthas than from earth.  However, that doesn't mean it's all of a sudden going to be -unattractive-, just because the world is harsh.

Actually, it does mean it's going to be unattractive. Just ask my character, and she'll explain the whole thing to you.

An example is body type.  It shows nothing about habits or diet, really.  It can be influenced, but body type is largely genetic, with three main body types that you -inherit-.  Changing this body type can be extremely difficult.  Looking at an obese person and thinking they're automatically lazy is the same as doing so on earth...it's ignorant.  There are a good number of cases where it's true, particularly in America, but making it a -rule- of behavior is downright wrong.

Well unfortunately my character wasn't a dietician, nor had she read the latest from the American Medical Journal on diets and body types. She knew what she knew - that people like her were healthy and attractive, and people who weren't like her were not healthy and not attractive. That meant - that people who were obese, to her, were unattractive - and indicated, to her, that these people obviously didn't spend most of their lives from the time they were able to ride, out of cities, protecting their tribes, gathering food and water, hunting and riding day in and day out without a single Nekrete off. Was her opinion based on any kind of fact? Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn't really matter. What matters was this was her opinion, based on her own lifestyle and observations of other lifestyles.

Skin colors being 'off' is unattractive?  If any of you ever read comics, you can find some definite 'off-color' characters, but some of them look pretty damn attractive, for a piece of art.

Elves in comic books are usually attractive, but humans in Armageddon are usually -not- attracted to elves in Armageddon. It's a strawman arguement, and completely invalid.

I don't think this is an area that can be generalized.  Just as in real life, different people like different things.  There's no 'rule' of attractiveness, merely different tastes from individual to individual.

Actually there -is- a rule of attractiveness, as Sanity Assassin pointed out. Health and symmetry are what determines attractiveness, in every culture of humanoids (including simians and other ape-like creatures). The only difference, is what constitutes health on Earth is completely irrelevent to what constitutes health in Armageddon.

[Armaddict]

Well since most of what you said is almost in direct criticism of my post (as opposed to the rest of "you guys", I'll answer.

Heh, sorry.  I had just scanned over the posts until I came to yours, which seemed to at least generally fit in with the opinions I saw before.  Yours is just the one that gave me ideas on what to post on, heh.

Flawless skin, to my character was unattractive because as far as my character was concerned it was a sign of someone who has never been in a situation to get themselves scarred. And for my character, this meant a city person. And city people were - to my character, unattractive.

I was merely commenting on my view of it.  I didn't mean to come across as attacking it or anything...it was just input.  Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

Actually, it does mean it's going to be unattractive. Just ask my character, and she'll explain the whole thing to you.

Yes, it means it will be unattractive -to your character-.  That goes along with the earlier statement that, just as in real life, different people will find different things attractive.  If you go along the lines of the single rule you were talking about, then those pale city folk who are healthy (paleness does not represent sickliness, nor is it insinuated or role-played as having a reputation for it, so there is no reason to think otherwise for the most part) and symmetrical would still be 'attractive' in that sense.

Well unfortunately my character wasn't a dietician, nor had she read the latest from the American Medical Journal on diets and body types.

Sarcasm much appreciated, glad to see someone else who can use it recognizeably, heh.  But, the point is...that without reading those journals, or being a dietician, obesity wouldn't be a sign of unhealthy habits.  There have been plenty of characters and historical figures that were very fit and also overweight.  Then there are those that have seen unhealthy fat people.  Going off of common knowledge, obesity can't be a dead giveaway for being either healthy or unhealthy.

Elves in comic books are usually attractive, but humans in Armageddon are usually -not- attracted to elves in Armageddon. It's a strawman arguement, and completely invalid.

I didn't say anything about comic book elves, nor humans being strongly attracted to elves in Zalanthas.  I said that despite different skin tones, people can still look incredibly attractive.  For a drawing.  It illustrates a point that an odd color does not instantly say 'stay away from that', especially when off-color skin tones are more prevalent on arm than in real life.

The only difference, is what constitutes health on Earth is completely irrelevent to what constitutes health in Armageddon.

So do you consider fitness and health on Zalanthas humans to be different than a healthy real life human?  Trim bodies (not necessarily muscular or slender) with good physiological processes?

[Xamminy]

You see, Armaddict, that psychological thing...that's where the problem arises.  There is a big psychological difference between us and Zalanthans.  Zalanthans were raised Zalanthan, with different prejudices and ideals.

(Editted to add that the rest of this post is not directed specifically at Armaddict, as it may sound at some points.  Anytime the term 'you' is used, it is in the general sense.)

Consider this, people tend to find women that are thin attractive, but not more than two hundred years ago, being plump was considered beautiful.  This is the product of being raised during a time that plump = well fed = money, and people DID find it attractive.  I'm not saying that they liked obese people, but look at the majority of the people depicted in art from the time period.  They were what some people may call 'pleasantly plump.'  Now, on Armageddon, we could assume that that would actually be a way people are raised, considering the fact that only the rich are truly well-fed.

Now, consider that the genders are considered equal amongst the majority of society, worldwide.  (Yes, granted there are tribes/families that favor one gender or the other, but on the whole, gender equality is the norm.)  Not only are they considered equal, we know for fact that they are, in terms of raw stats.  We've been told so by the staff.  The fact that we have a multitude of people playing petite pretty-girls and V-torso'd, muscular men that think that they are playing the ideal of beauty in either gender, are at the least, misguided.  In Zalanthas, we should just as easily have V-torso'd, muscular women looking for petite pretty-boys, and vice-versa, as we have of the former scenario.

Why is this not the case?  Player education.

I have seen few rugged, muscular females in the game.  Fewer still dainty men.  Truly, the only dainty man I ever saw in game was treated poorly and had gender and sexuality-based insults sent his way on a regular basis...which I shouldn't have to say, but will just to keep all the information in one place, is out of place on Zalanthas, there being no prejudice based on sexuality in any tribe/clan/family (besides maybe the want to have the person breed for the tribe/clan/family instead of romp with his/her same-gendered bedsheet playmates).

It is hard to show people that your character has symmetry (which has been prooven to be a high-factor in whether someone is considered attractive or not, even across ethnic groups) in words without it becoming a cumbersome task.  Write your descriptions how you would like, but keep in mind that Zalanthans may have different tastes than you do.  Explore that possibility, I suggest, as it opens you up to a whole new level of understanding the world and its denizens, not to mention could open up whole new avenues of creativity for you.

[Bestatte]

Heh, sorry.  I had just scanned over the posts until I came to yours, which seemed to at least generally fit in with the opinions I saw before.  Yours is just the one that gave me ideas on what to post on, heh.

Groovy, baby.

I was merely commenting on my view of it.  I didn't mean to come across as attacking it or anything...it was just input.  Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

It did, apology accepted.

Yes, it means it will be unattractive -to your character-.  

Which was why I was -very- specific when I referred to one character I had, and was extremely careful not to claim, hint, or otherwise imply that my character's opinion necessarily applied to the rest of the game's characters.

Sarcasm much appreciated, glad to see someone else who can use it recognizeably, heh.  But, the point is...that without reading those journals, or being a dietician, obesity wouldn't be a sign of unhealthy habits.  There have been plenty of characters and historical figures that were very fit and also overweight.  Then there are those that have seen unhealthy fat people.  Going off of common knowledge, obesity can't be a dead giveaway for being either healthy or unhealthy.

1) I'm PMSing. I tend to enjoy sarcasm more this time of month than any other, especially when it's mine.

2) Going off common knowledge *OF MY CHARACTER,* obesity certainly -can- be a dead giveaway for being either healthy or unhealthy. My character was a tribal, in a 3-tribe community comprising well over 1000 members. The "common knowledge" of that tribe was that THEY were healthy. And they were, for the most part, slender, tall, showed visible signs of having lived life rather than watching others live it (meaning a few scars here or there), dark skinned, long-haired. Anything outside that criteria, MY character considered unattractive.

I didn't say anything about comic book elves, nor humans being strongly attracted to elves in Zalanthas.  I said that despite different skin tones, people can still look incredibly attractive.  For a drawing.  It illustrates a point that an odd color does not instantly say 'stay away from that', especially when off-color skin tones are more prevalent on arm than in real life.

Blue skin, green skin, purple lips, crimson hair, white skin, yellow (jaundiced) skin, polkadotted skin, extra skin, missing skin, were ALL considered unattractive to my character, and further, she would be more likely to assume they were sickly and possibly contagious than not. This - was my character's opinion. Not mine, not the opinion of my other characters. Of this one character that I mentioned throughout my entire post.

So do you consider fitness and health on Zalanthas humans to be different than a healthy real life human?  Trim bodies (not necessarily muscular or slender) with good physiological processes?

Health on earth means not passing out when it hits 105 degrees. Becoming rather dead when it hits 150 degrees is not a sign of bad health on earth, it's a sign of normal response. It his, however, a sign of bad health on Zalanthas. Huge muscles and 6-pack abs are considered healthy (in some circles) on earth (thought personally I think it's ugly as hell). Huge muscles and 6-pack abs are often considered very strange on Zalanthas, where the average *healthy* commoner is skinny and not overly muscular.

Fit means something different on earth than it does in Zalanthas. The criteria to determine what is healthy is different, because it's a different world. In Zalanthas, being able to find or buy enough water to keep you from dying of thirst is considered healthy. Compare that with the ability to filter your tapwater or invest in regular bottled spring water deliveries in the privacy of your own house, which actually has a plumbing system, on Earth. Completely different worlds.

[Armaddict]

Consider this, people tend to find women that are thin attractive, but not more than two hundred years ago, being plump was considered beautiful.

This depends on the culture you're coming from.  This is around the time that women were using...uh...corsets?  Those things that squeezed their waist to make them appear thinner.  This is because it was more attractive to the -majority- of men.  Pleasantly plump is perfectly fine, it can be very attractive, but it can also be unattractive, based on other qualities.  For the most part, referring to the plump as attractive because it shows that they are well-fed...this isn't talking about -attractiveness-.  This is talking about logic.  There's a difference.

Someone who's seeking an ideal mate will find plump people more suited to their needs.  It's the same as the 'security' issue that you hear women talking about in real life.  Security raises confidence that a mate can provide for you, thus making them somewhat trustworthy, whatever.  The whole psychology of the matter.

You see, Armaddict, that psychological thing...that's where the problem arises. There is a big psychological difference between us and Zalanthans. Zalanthans were raised Zalanthan, with different prejudices and ideals.

I agree, the psychology would be -vastly- different.  Psychology, however, is completely different and unique in -each- mind.  It's the main difference between psychology and sociology.

Studies have been done on what makes someone attractive, within psychology.  It isn't a vast majority, but there is a definite correlation made between yourself and your parents and who you choose as a mate.  With a good upbringing (this is why it likely isn't a vast majority, in my opinion.  It depends on your view of your parents.), men tend to search for women with similar personality traits as their mother, since their mothers serve as the ideal example of someone who can raise the young effectively.  The same goes for women with their fathers.  I'm not saying everyone wants to fuck their mom, merely that your parents serve as a sort of unconcious 'proof' of which traits are ideal in a mate, which are then instilled as 'attractive' from an early age.

Physically, however...I see little variation.  I don't see many people in harsh, real life upbringings seeing anything different with attractiveness, very often.  Even people from other cultures -generally- attach beauty to somewhat the same standards as we do, -so long as they've been exposed to it-.  My point being...most of the general populace on armageddon -will- have been exposed to most of the situations we're dealing with.

Write your descriptions how you would like, but keep in mind that Zalanthans may have different tastes than you do. Explore that possibility, I suggest, as it opens you up to a whole new level of understanding the world and its denizens, not to mention could open up whole new avenues of creativity for you.

I had thought I was being rather creative with the reasons that this general topic -wouldn't- be much different

I completely acknowledge the fact that Zalanthas is a different world.  However, with human physiology at least -basically- the same, I don't see much reason that the idea would deviate so far away from how things have been.  I can't think of a logical reason that muscly men would become unattractive, or that slender, curvy women would suddenly become unattractive, or that naught but paler skin or a different skin tone would make someone suddenly repulsing.

I don't look at african-americans and think they're ugly because of skin color (Damn, there're some fiiiine women, heh.)  When different skin tone is more common in Zalanthas than here...I don't see much of a difference, especially with no IC rumors or misconceptions that are spread around that indicate different color -does- mean something bad.

I'm probably seeming pretty argumentative, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't think there can be a general 'rule' for what's attractive to someone's character.  You can generalize beauty, but it's always the specifics of each individual that grab your attention.  And with each person searching for different specifics, as a -rule- of the unique mind and it's psychology...there's a very broad interpretation on this subject.  And trying to say that what we hold attractive in RL doesn't apply in arm just seems like a very hasty decision.

[Xamminy]

I never said there was anything to narrow it down.  Truly, the only narrow guideline I gave was someone that was more symetrical would be considered more attractive than someone that was note...there is proof of this in psychological study.

What I said:  the stereotypical tough-guy or dainty-woman roles that many are falling into wouldn't be attractive to all and that exploring the possibilities is a good thing.

[Ayashah]

*cracks her knuckles*

Seems it's time to bring back Druell Jr.

hehe

Just teasing.

Everyone has good points in what would be or wouldnt be attractive and their reasons why. I dont really see it changing what the players are making. You will have those that want to make a man with the six-pack ads and the girls with the slender build and lucious curves. People will still home in on those pcs for their beauty.

Though the docs say they are equal, take a look at most of the clothing for females. The descriptions are for making females look 'slenderer'. With that in mind, it would make one assume that the 'slender' woman is the beautiful one.

Look at the npcs high up in the Houses/clans and you will rarely find one that is not slender and beautiful with knock out curves. This too adds to the sense that one must be the slender, pale, delicate flower to get anywhere.

When a lord takes a concubine or lover, take a good look at the figure of those taken. They are usually very slender, waiflike, etc. Again, a visible reminder of what isnt suppose to be the ideal on ARM, that slender is beautiful.

So, what it comes down to is that if females and males are similarly built then there is a lot more than just the player's main descriptions that need to be changed to overcome the perceived notion that the ultimate male is built with rippling muscles and the ultimate female is petite with big ta ta's.

Just my 2 sids worth

[ashyom]

On the same side of coin, there are plenty of clothes that would serve, for the lack of better term, metrosexual men in-game who wants to show off all their assets well.  
-A

[Xamminy]

Ayashah, there is/was someone that could best be described as slightly plump for the character's race...and gets/got a decent amount of attention for it.

Having seen a fair number of noble NPCs, I can also say that your estimation is not quite correct, Ayashah.  There are plenty of gaunt or fat NPC nobles...plenty.

Also, your point about how people playing nobles take certain types for concubines, you're just backing up my point that players are reinforcing this ideal which may not quite be what the people in Arm would idealize at every level of society.

[Ayashah]

Exactly Xamminy. I wasnt refuting your point on players (imm or regular) taking the slender thing as a concubine or being the ones that set the trend. Also, my post did not say ALL the npcs nor ALL the nobles do the slender, f-me descriptions. But there are a surprising amount of them that do. It isnt just nobles when one says Houses/clans. There are merchant Houses/clans also. I think you are reading things in my post that arent there.

Ayashah, there is/was someone that could best be described as slightly plump for the character's race...and gets/got a decent amount of attention for it.

I dont ever recall posting that those that are plump didnt get any attention so I am not sure where you are going with that comment.

As for the male clothes, there arent that many that I, myself, have seen that try to make a guy's chest look buffer/like a six-pack. There are some but seriously, go look at most of the 'nice' female clothes and you will see the open reference in a lot that have 'slimming' effect or making one look more slender.

My point, as was in my original post, was that there are many things objectwise and npcwise, that also help bring the general feel to the mud that 'slender' is the model female. It isnt all just about players bringing their personal preferences into the game.

edited to add :

But I do see that my use of rarely  in my other post is the culprit. Let me change that to a 'a lot of them' are slender or slender in build, at least those usually brought out in the public's eye.

[ashyom]

All those tight pants must be for something good.

[Ayashah]

All those tight pants must be for something good.

*Drools*

Tight pants

*pants*

*wipes the drool away* Umm, where was I?

[Armaddict]

Are you guys discussing by agreeing with each other?

Wow.  This is an idea that I think you can tell is completely and utterly foreign and exotic to me.  :shock: