Population

[Delerak]

I think this is needed in the help files for each major city/outpost and even area.  Most people would know this as common knowledge in game I believe.  At least a number for ooc knowledge would be good, such as 50,000 in Allanak, 4,000 in Labyrith, just to give newbies and even veterans a look at how big the places actually are you are playing in.

[Ghardoan]

Actually, I  disagree with this proposal. Population counts are typically obtained through a census, which would be rather unlikely to occur in most places, if you think about it. In addition, with the high probability of death on Zalanthas, it is not very likely that these population counts would remain very accurate for long. But even if some odd organization spent the time, money, and effort to perform a census, how would the layman know? Only through word of mouth, seeing as reading and writing are outlawed in most places, and I do not see many people saying, "Hey, did ya hear? We've got about 4,102,000 people in Allanak, according to a census taken last month! Ain't that nifty?" I don't think people would have more than a very general idea of the population count, such as "hundreds", "thousands", or "millions" of people.

Ghardoan sees no merit in this idea, but he is not always right.

Disclaimer: This post was not edited prior to being submitted, and may be subject to spelling and grammatical errors, or may have vague, weak, or incongruent points.

[Sanvean]

I think people tend to over/underestimate populations, and so these figures might be helpful to people trying to envision the world. The staff sat down and worked out a list a few years ago, but somehow, it's vanished. Here's a few guesses, off the top of my head, and other staff can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Allanak: 350-400k, including villages
Northlands: same number, more dispersed
Luirs: 3-5k
Tyn Dashra: 2k
Tablelands: 20k in nomadic tribes (elves/dwarves)
Red Storm: 2-3k
Anyali: 2k (counting all 3 tribes)

[Delerak]

Thanks Sanvean.

[Eternal]

I don't think people would have more than a very general idea of the population count, such as "hundreds", "thousands", or "millions" of people.

Actually, that's one thing I've always thought about with Cavilish, that it imparts the knowledge of such elusive concepts as "millions".  I doubt most highly that your average commoner knows what a million is... anything beyond a few hundred would probably make them simply think "too much".

For a long time, I considered the fact that Sirihish might not even have a word for million.  Not many speakers would have time or reason to sit around and count anything that high, and I'd hazard a guess that outside of the merchanting life higher maths are largely unknown, much as geometry was during the Dark Ages (to this day the Catholic church regards geometry legally as goetia, that is a form of magic approved by the church).  Most likely, the word for million that a sirhihish speaker might learn would be the cavilish word, as well as multiplication and division.

This is a bit divergent from this thread, I suppose.  I agree that a basic idea would help on the docs... and of course, wouldn't translate to ic knowlege, 'cept mebbe for templars/Sath Nobles (hey, who's to say the nasty templars don't keep perfectly accurate censi through the use of mindbenders, hmm, hmm?).

[Xanous]

Allanak: 350-400k, including villages
Northlands: same number, more dispersed
Luirs: 3-5k
Tyn Dashra: 2k
Tablelands: 20k in nomadic tribes (elves/dwarves)
Red Storm: 2-3k
Anyali: 2k (counting all 3 tribes)

I find these numbers somewhat disturbing, since it means that Allanak and Tuluk would have combined about 95% of the whole known world's population.

[krelin]

Why is that disturbing?  I think it's true of the PC numbers.

[Sanvean]

With Allanak, I'm including all the outlying villages.

Northlands is the entire northlands, not Tuluk specifically.

Are there other groups I've left out of the list? Probably, some for OOC reasons, otherwise out of sheer absentmindedness. Cenyr holds about 800-1000 people.

[John]

I don't find these numbers disturbing. You have to remember this is a world where it's nearly impossible to live, let alone spread across the world. I'm trying to think of an analogy in our history as an example, but I can't. And this is largely due to the Known World's history, even Ancient Egypt's population was spread out along the Nile.

My take on Zalanthas's history is the world was a lush green bountiful world like Caladan from the Dune series. Man (including all sentient races in this) covered the entire Known World (a way to think of this as the Known World being a continent, no-one knows why they didn't cover the entire world, although my theory is there were nations or armies to stop them). However the Society was collapsing (as happened in Ancient Egypt a few times) and the rulers of the world finally decided to disband and most likely take control of their parts of the Known World.

However The Dragon came along, and quickly took control over the entire Known World because of his superior magick and the lack of co-ordinated defence. For hundreds of years the Dragon and his minions turned the beautiful lush world into the desolate and desperate desert it is now, with plagues killing off people in the dozens so everyone scatters.

Once the Dragon leaves, it's really difficult to survive, you have these dangerous animals that can easily wipe people out, and probably does forcing everyone to meak out a megre living in groups, not being able to group together too much because they can't support themselves, but unable to spread too thin or else they'll be killed off by the wild animals.

Then these sorcerers start to build cities, and are able to provide protection against the animals, as well as food and shelter. Now if I was caught up in a savage world I'd quickly run to any sanctuary provided, which everyone probably did for fear of dying to gith and animals. Now while these cities don't have the populations it does today, those that didn't go to the cities and decided to stay in their tribed would be constantly dying off and reforming new tribes, so while these people are unable to increase their population levels, the people in the cities are thriving like nothing else.

Thus you get uneven population levels. Now the reason this has never occured in our real life, is because people tend to expand and gives more breathing space for the population. Now the only way this could happen is if Tektolnes decides to, because anyone trying to create a city far away enough from Allanak to be considered independant will die out because of all the animals. And the reason Tektolnes hasn't created an Allanak II is because his magic isn't powerful enough, or he just doesn't feel like it.

You also have to take into account Steinal, AFAIK that had a population level to rival Allanak which completely dissapeared thanks to Tektolnes.

As for Sanvean not including any other secret tribe populations, I'm thankful because I've never even heard of the Tyn Dashra or Cenyr. Also, how bigs the Known World anyway? Going by the map I'd say it's smaller then Australia, so who knows what else is outside of the Known World. The Known World could possibly only contain 10% of the entire world's population. This is like with Australia's history, when it started out 80% of the population was in sydney, and Australia has the resources to allow people to spread out.

I remember someone saying once it was about the size of Michigan.

I believe Cenyr is in the Docs, or I know about it someway else.. and I dunno the Tyn Dashra either

[Carnage]

Michigan?

There's a whole lot of world to explore.

Hell, Zalanthas could actually be a hell of a lot like Earth, where the Known World is like the Sahara Desert. Daaaamn...who wants to join my band of suicidal warriors running as far north as we can and logging all the room descs so we can look back after we die?

[Dazed and Confused]

You realize that the CIA offered Afghani's 10 million dollars if they brought Osama in dead.

When asked by reporters how many cattle $10 million dollars could buy?

They responded perhaps 10 or 15.

If you wanna roleplay a commoner, keep that it mind that illiterate and uneducated people know almost nothing about large numbers and concepts related to large numbers.

I also once heard a joke about the 4 numbers that Ethiopians knew.
1 is what most people had of anything
2 is what most people wanted of anything
3 is what most people thought the whole world consisted of.
0 is what they had after eating their bowl of dried cornmeal.

[Anonymous]

350,000 to 400,000?  I would have thought at MOST one-tenth of those numbers.  Someone want to help me understand please? Thanks

[Bestatte]

Allanak is a huge city. Most huge cities in real life have well over a million people in them. For Allanak to have around half a million is pretty reasonable, given the low technology and constant birth and death rate.

[fearwig]

Say, I know this is an oldie, but:

400,000 is actually more than "reasonable", but actually quite extravagantly huge, considering the technology we're talking about. The fact that the cities have sewage systems says quite a lot, though, and surely the magick element has a lot to do with it.

However, rest assured that no ancient-level civilization had a city that size--Tenochtitlan peaked at about 200,000, and only then with its being spread out over a comparatively huge area with a convoluted system of food transport (and likely near-constant famine). In fact, when the Spanish came over to conquer, it was, at 200k, even still two thirds the size of Paris and Constantinople (Istanbul of course, for you plentiful Turks) at about 300k each. And those were the largest cities in the world.

400,000 people in a city that size is simply, utterly packed. I'd suggest a revision of that estimate for the purposes of realism. You've got water--you've got some food--you've even got limited sanitation. And still, 400,000 is more than twice the estimate I'd suggest.

UNLESS--you were to say that 250,000 or so of that is in the villages and outlying regions. That I could imagine reasonable. That would also make Luir's, Red Storm, and other such locations similar in population to virtual villages and towns that would have to exist--but of course these coded places have logistical reasons to exist, and so it makes sense that they get precidence. But... I would imagine most of the southern population actually to be right there in Allanak, since food, water, commerce are centralized there. Maybe not. There are villages. I might even be comfortable imagining only half Allanak's population lives in its villages. I only think it at all reasonable that more than 100,000 could live in a city this size despite this level of technology because I know they'd damn well find a way, considering the harshness of the exterior.


On this topic, how long do you suppose Allanak is, say, each wall? Half a mile? Three miles? It's hard to envision a fully walled city of 150,000-350,000. Generally walls aren't necessary when you've got a city that large. It defends itself--it's huge. Even if some kid gets nabbed by a scrab, there are throngs and throngs and possibly thongs of people there to rip it to shreds for meat.

But hey, we've got magic to fall back on. We'll need it, right? Meanwhile, let's all have fun and forget about the numbers, I suppose. I've had my fun.

[LBO]

However, rest assured that no ancient-level civilization had a city that size

When the Aurelian walls were built around Rome in the third century AD, the area enclosed was about fifty times that of Londinium and the present-day City of London. Rome's population at that time was around a million, a figure not surpassed by any city in the world until the nineteenth century (by which time the world's population had increased tenfold).

400,000 people in a city that size is simply, utterly packed. I'd suggest a revision of that estimate for the purposes of realism. You've got water--you've got some food--you've even got limited sanitation. And still, 400,000 is more than twice the estimate I'd suggest.

You don't know what the dimensions of Allanak are at all - there are no numbers anywhere on that. It really could be huge in a similar fashion to ancient Rome. And yes, ancient Rome was terribly packed and the poor lived completely on top of each other in slum houses made out of wood. To me then having 300,000 in a massive walled city and having another 100,000 working in the outlying villages does not seem unreasonable or unrealistic. As Sanvean stated before - the number 400,000 is made up of those living both in and around the city.

Besides, its difficult to compare real world examples to those on Zalanthas given that there was not the same need in our history to come together purely to survive. Outside of the cities and the farming villages the wilderness is full of many extremely deadly animals - far more so than on Earth. You can barely grow anything on Zalanthas. There is virtually no water anywhere. Sure you've got nomadic tribes but they're only a small percentage of the overall world population that has gravitated towards what is your best chance of survival - living in and around a city.

On this topic, how long do you suppose Allanak is, say, each wall? Half a mile? Three miles? It's hard to envision a fully walled city of 150,000-350,000.

I don't see why each wall could not stretch for a good distance. Angkor Thom in Cambodia had a population of 100,000 at its peak living in a walled city of 9 square kilometres with a wall length of 12km in total. Thats 3km (or 1.9 miles) per wall with each wall in Angkor Thom being 8m (27 feet) high. Expanding Allanak's walls to 5km (3 miles) encloses an area of 25 square kilometres which I think could hold 300,000 given the Angkor Thom example above. With the use of magick the construction of such walls could certainly be done. It certainly would be a full city but not impossible by any means. There is food - not much but enough to survive. There is water - probably a good deal of it is generated magickally but there's enough to get by. There is trade, money and relative safety. All these things lead me to believe that in a very harsh environment such as Zalanthas that most people are going to want to live in and around a city and that the cities are constructed with this in mind. I don't see the necessity to reduce the city population sizes by half as you suggested with your estimate.

Generally walls aren't necessary when you've got a city that large. It defends itself--it's huge. Even if some kid gets nabbed by a scrab, there are throngs and throngs and possibly thongs of people there to rip it to shreds for meat.

Walls are pretty necessary when you think you might have to resist a siege or attack and have powerful enemies. Having walls means that you can afford to defend a certain piece of territory with far fewer people than would otherwise be necessary which means in turn that your population can go about the daily business of keeping your city running instead of having to defend it constantly.

[Angela Christine]

The size of Allanak is easy to calculate, sort of.  Go outside, and walk around the city.  The walls enclose an area 3 wilderness squares by 5 wilderness squares, or a total of 15 wilderness squares including the main city, the labyrinth and the templar's quarter (by comparison, Red Storm is just 1 wilderness square, and the scaien encloses a buttload of wilderness squares but about half of that space is still semi-wilderness).  

That leads back to the eternal question about the general size of a wilderness square, if it is 1 mile than the city is 15 square miles and is encircled by 16 miles of wall, but if it is a league (which is three miles) than the city is 9*15=135 square miles, and the walls are a total of 48 miles long.  P

That is a lot of wall.  Stone wall.  Which supports my theory that Tek isn't really a sorcerer, he's actually the worlds most powerful Rukkian.  That way he didn't have to have the wall built, he just called the stone to rise up out of the ground.    (He has a thing for stone, he also supposedly burried Stinel in sand and droped a mine on Luirs Dragonthal).   It is hard to imagine how they'd build the walls without magick.  But then some people think the ancient egyptians couldn't have built the pyramids without the help of aliens, so you never know.

Angela Christine

[LBO]

It is a lot of stone wall whatever the dimensions of the city. Still, according to http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi not a whole lot of very important things were happening around Allanak after the beginning of the work on the walls (that got remembered and recorded anyway)

c.320
Work begins on the walls of the city-state of Allanak at Vrun Driath.
c.370
Rumors that at least one servant of the Dragon still abides in the Known World reach Allanak.
385
Fifth Age ends.
c.400
A hitherto unkown warrior named Muk Utep sacks the twelve tribes at Gol Krathu with an army of terrible barbarians out of the northwest. The tribes called the Elves of Mallok and the Twin Warlocks are among the conquered. The city-state of Tuluk begins to rise under Utep the Sun King.
c.450
Nearly one hundred years of warfare grips the Northlands as Utep wages campaigns of conquest to expand his domain.
462
Sixth Age ends.
539
Seventh Age ends.
616
Eighth Age ends.
628
The armies of the city-states of Allanak and Tuluk clash at Wyntek Harzen, east of the Red Desert. The battle is short and inconclusive. During the war, a black fortress is discovered in the sands. It is believed to be the home of Luir Dragonsthrall, last living servant of the Dragon.

There's 300 years of what looks like relative quiet - plenty of time to make some quality walls even without magick. :wink:

[Trenidor]

Why do people insist on calling Red Storm a village?

It's more of a town.

1k is a town about.

up to 10k would be a large town or small city.

So really it's a town...sure it's small inside, but it's got two story buildings, and lots of them lineing the streets...

Town.

Village would be your 300 people spread out, the one you could know everyone's name, or at least who's relatives they are.

[Angela Christine]

I think Red Storm Village is actually the name, and it named itself back when it was smaller.  Why is it called New York City and not New York Urban Centre, or New York Metropolis.  Oh, wait, that isn't because "City" is an improtant part of the name, but rather to differentiate it from New York State.  Much the way people say Washington DC, where the DC would be completly unnecessary except that there is also a Washington State, and you don't want to set up an APM in Washinton and have half the people waiting at the Library of Congress while the other half have ducked into a Starbucks in Seattle to escape the constant drizzle and the threat of being very slowly consumed by moss.  

Anyway, maybe they call it Red Storm Village not to emphasize its supposed villageness, but rather to distinguish it from Red Storm East.  Why not call it Red Storm Town?  I don't know, but it might have something to do with the trend of things called "X town" to be abrieviated into "Xton".  Eventually Red Storm would become Red Stormton, and then perhaps just Stormington.  Not a bad name, but a bit too Merry Olde England, eh?


Angela Christine

[wizturbo]

That is a lot of wall.  Stone wall.  Which supports my theory that Tek isn't really a sorcerer, he's actually the worlds most powerful Rukkian.  That way he didn't have to have the wall built, he just called the stone to rise up out of the ground.    (He has a thing for stone, he also supposedly burried Stinel in sand and droped a mine on Luirs Dragonthal).   It is hard to imagine how they'd build the walls without magick.  But then some people think the ancient egyptians couldn't have built the pyramids without the help of aliens, so you never know.

Angela Christine

He's a Rukkian that learned sorcery, Duh.

[Angela Christine]

He's a Rukkian that learned sorcery, Duh.

Excellent.  [/Mr.Burns]



AC

[Ghost]

He is a sorcerer with a bunch of Rukkian gemmed servants, who built the city and Tek got the credit.

[wizturbo]

He is a sorcerer with a bunch of Rukkian gemmed servants, who built the city and Tek got the credit.

Somehow I think the city came before the gem.

[Bogre]

What kind of area are we talking about in the outlying villages? The immediate surroundings or all of Allanak's protectorates?