My Torture Complaint & The Culture Here

[Bebop]

For the sake of discussion, the complaint was regarding a PC (Bebop's) being codedly subdued and then codedly whipped using a whip object that utilizes a script. The PC performing the whipping and the PC subduing Bebop's PC performed no additional emotes pertaining to the action of the barbed whip (the barbed nature of the whip being described in both the object's sdesc and its mdesc). The complaint was based upon the question: does coded, base gameplay in the game ever require asking consent?

Further to the discussion, here is what the whip script displays to the player being whipped:
Code: [Select]
[PC complaint is about] raises a wickedly barbed whip and lashes out at you.

*CRACK* Fiery pain dizzies you as the blow savages your back.
(Both of these echoes are automated).

The complaint was dismissed as it was determined that the requirement for consent regarding torture did not apply to the game at large - it is assumed consent is given to the coded game when a player chooses to play Armageddon. The are echoes within the code that describe being backstabbed (to death), being kicked and trampled (to death) and in very specific cases: vomiting one's insides out, being dragged beneath the sands and suffocated and being devoured by parasitic worms.

With these elements of the game being non-consensual (especially when enacted by NPCs with no human oversight), it was assessed that the scene in question, ironically because it was performed without any human elaboration (no emotes detailing the paring of the skin, nor the flensing of flesh), fell into the same category, and so didn't require consent -but certainly could benefit from it. Indeed most players would request consent before whipping - though such really only leaves death as an alternative.

As 'help consent' read at the time:

Code: [Select]
If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other
player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable
amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint
verified), you will be banned.

The argument that the complaint be upheld hinged on what constituted a graphic sequence due to the help file, as read, requiring consent in the following situations:
~ Sexual/Adult RP
~ Torture that results in functional damage to a character (e.g. eye loss)
~ 'Graphic sequences'.

The semantics around what defines a 'graphic sequence' was deemed too vague to enforce. But it was assumed to cover situations where a player is using emotes to describe, in graphic detail, the injury (that is not resulting in functional damage) to your character. So, in the case of a whipping this would be a PC forcing their victim to read emotes about their flesh being shredded, the action of their spilled blood, etc. - for a captive audience, this would be deemed unfair and in-line with our other consent rules which seek to retain the reality of the game world while allowing players to not engage with parts of it that resemble the real-world we are playing a game to get away from.

As the scene did not involve such 'graphic' emotes and was instead relying upon base elements (hard-coded) of the game that the accused had no control over, we assessed that they were simply using the mechanics available to them and no action was taken beyond asking said player to consider asking for consent in the future - in case emotes from others involved occur.

This all said: I do not believe this complaint precludes a staff complaint about certain hard-coded elements that staff is responsible for crossing the line in terms of 'graphic content'

This is not true.  My character was stripped naked at the order of a leadership PC an then whipped with a barbed whip which was RP'd out by myself and everyone in the room.  No one was asked for consent to be tortured or witness torture.

I am not playing and only check back so often.  I came back to see the thread was locked.  If these issues are going to keep being hidden and misrepresented I am happy to take them to Reddit if I have to with all of my receipts over what I've experienced over the past year.  Or we can keep it in the community and actually discuss the flaws of the system.

I've got other things going on in my life but I'm happy for staff to post the entire complaint here if they feel confident in their decision.  But this constant veil to protect a lack of rule enforcement isn't okay.  And I don't appreciate my experience being downplayed and only some of the evidence being given.  I'm pretty sure I have both the log and the complaints all saved.

I was then told by staff my character being flayed and stripped naked did not constitute as torture and therefore was not beholden to the consent rule.  I am still unclear as to how this did not constitute as torture.

That is to say nothing of the sexism I experienced in my last leadership role after that.  That is to say nothing about a member of staff contacting my personal friend to complain about me, getting blocked on Discord then going on their husband's social media to complain about her and trying to lure her back by claiming they were going to offer her a sponsored role.  Staff are well aware of all of this.  That same returning player was INSTANTLY killed be a leader PC without so much as an emote. Her experience here was awful, as was mine.

Let's not down play the actual really bad experience I've had on here that has RL implications.  I have tried to keep quiet in case I want to return and because I do trust some staff here but this game has a huge culture issue.  And the longer I'm away the more I think it unhealthy to return.  It bothers me that others might be exposed to this kind of behavior and staff are downplaying it unchecked.  I really don't feel like having to make a big case to the court of public opinion.

But seriously, don't downplay the fact that consent for torture wasn't requested and then try to tilt the story because staff ultimately decided that being flayed naked publicly with a whip "isn't torture."  Just stop.  Have some accountability.  How can you possibly say that because a whip was a coded item it didn't actually constitute as torture?  Do you hear yourselves?  I guess no one in the game has actually been stabbed with a sword because getting stabbed and the sword are a coded game play.

When are we going to have a real talk about how the lack of transparency in this game and all of the secretiveness does nothing but cultivate a toxic culture that uses misdirection to protect staff and hurt players or put them at risk?  People are being hurt on OOC levels here because of the culture existing outside of and around the game.  Again, the community here needs to take accountability.

[triste]

I am not playing and only check back so often.  I came back to see the thread was locked.  If these issues are going to keep being hidden and misrepresented I am happy to take them to Reddit if I have to with all of my receipts over what I've experienced over the past year.  Or we can keep it in the community and actually discuss the flaws of the system.

WRT the above: Yep I just want to say this is valid. When a thread gets closed on here, a new thread opens up to replace it AND/OR a thread opens up about it on the shadow board(s) AND/OR a thread opens up about in on Reddit. Strange hydra like effect. I wonder why that myth exists and why people still learn about it.

WRT to the topic at hand: When a player is exceptional and mature about handling consent and difficult scenes I kudos them (sneemz I'm looking at you you brilliant devil). When a player doesn't follow the consent rules, I report them and ask staff to look. Done and done. If staff doesn't resolve something in a way I agree with, I'd like a better and more formalized appeal process, sure, but I also just want to enjoy playing the game and I want for them to enjoy staffing.

[Doublepalli]

Back to....http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55908.0.html

[Heade]

Bebop, I like you. I want to preface what I'm about to say with that, because I do like you as a player and as a person.

But if the person doing the whipping wasn't the one RPing what happened to you with each strike, the graphic nature of the scene was completely of your making, because you're the one who chooses what to emote, aside from the code-only element of the game. If we start considering use of coded items to require consent, no one will ever die. You could take the argument further and say that combat is torture, since you often get slashed, stabbed, or beaten several times before succumbing to your wounds. You could say that poisons that cause you to vomit out your insides are torture. Virtually everything unpleasant could be considered torture. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

So, due to that slippery slope, where virtually anything could be construed as torture depending on perspective, staff has decided to draw that line at mechanical item use and skill use. Just using a coded item or skill is not enough to justify requiring consent. It's implied that by playing here, all players are consenting to be subject to the code of the game.

I hope you understand where I and the staff are coming from on this. I can't speak for them, but I'd personally like to see you return as a player. You and I seem to agree on at least the necessity of Tuluk in the game. And if I had to guess, I imagine staff would like you to rejoin us as well. Please don't take staff's stance on this as an affront to you personally. A line must be drawn. Coded items is where they've done so, and I think that is reasonable.

[Malken]

Hey Bebop, because of your past (and hopefully not current) personal relationships to players/staffers of Armageddon, I would say that this is a TERRIBLE idea for you to even consider playing Armageddon again (and for you to even have returned to it).

I'm not exactly sure what you expected to happen... Like.. Isn't Armageddon a huge chunk of where your personal conflicts come from?

I think what's unhealthy is for you to even consider returning to the game, given everything that you get back from it in return.

If I were you I would just drop everything in your RL that is remotely associated to Armageddon and never look back.

[Large Hero]

I'm not going to speak to the particulars of this situation, or to your prior experiences in the game, as I am not familiar with them.

This is the key point from Rathustra's post:

The semantics around what defines a 'graphic sequence' was deemed too vague to enforce. But it was assumed to cover situations where a player is using emotes to describe, in graphic detail, the injury (that is not resulting in functional damage) to your character. So, in the case of a whipping this would be a PC forcing their victim to read emotes about their flesh being shredded, the action of their spilled blood, etc. - for a captive audience, this would be deemed unfair and in-line with our other consent rules which seek to retain the reality of the game world while allowing players to not engage with parts of it that resemble the real-world we are playing a game to get away from.

The line between requiring consent and not requiring consent is crossed when the actions are graphically described using the emote system.

Think of the difference between "beating a character to death" in these two different scenarios:
1. A character describes using emotes, in detail, the wounds suffered to the nose, the eyes, etc. Taken to an extreme, they could emote a version of The Mountain/Oberyn scene in GoT. The attacker then wishes up to have the victim's character killed.
2. Typing "kill man" while unarmed to punch until the character is dead.

The same IC result occurred: a fatal beating. The latter, as it only consists of a coded command, does not require consent.

Consider what's happening when a half-giant hits a character with a two-handed weapon and does unspeakable damage to their head. Imagery of that would be NSFW. A half-giant running into a room, one-shotting someone, and then firing off four emotes describing the action in detail would be one thing. Allowing the code to handle it is very different.

Because when we choose to play Armageddon, we consent to the possibility of some horrible fates befalling our characters, as performed by the game's code.

One of these is the potential loss of all equipment. A raider does not require consent to order a character to remove and drop all equipment in the desert. If the raider then chose to use emotes to describe what they were seeing? That's different.

Also, if the victim in a scene chooses to respond with their own detailed emotes to a scene they have not consented to, that's the victim's choice.

[Barsook]

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I really do agree with Malken and I wish to to NOT bring up what you, Bepop, said in your "Goodbye" thread to hurt you you but to help you.

I'm also strongly considering removing my online presence.

Malken is right, just let it all go. Maybe start to practice mindfulness and even find a local Sangha, if you wish to do it with others. Or get a therapist to help you. Remember your PSA about mental health and gaming! It sounds like it's really hurting you and I wish it doesn't get to that point.

[Bebop]

If I had any intention to return I wouldn't be making this post.

The reaction so far makes it clear to me that the players will be blamed again and again.

I left after I literally had Shalooonsh immediately message my friend who returned to this game to complain about our former relationship from 7 years ago.  When she blocked him he contacted her husband on Facebook and told him if she came back and talked to him he would offer her sponsored roles.

I have screen shots of all of this.  Largely due to this she and I both stopped playing.  We received no follow up regarding this though we were told it would be escalated to producers.  Neither of us received a response.

My character was tortured and told they were subsequently not tortured.  The rules of the game were broken.

The fact that the community here would rather see these kinds of things stay in place and blame it on a player's former trauma because they're just cavalier about talking about mental health issues and their mental health instead of seeing staff being held accountable tells me all I need to know about the culture here.

And to those speculating about my relationship to the game, no.  I did not play the game for five years.  It was not a HUGE part of my life, it was a part of my past.  That should have absolutely no bearing on being harassed, or rules broken in the game.  I am a very open person that discusses my life and issues pretty freely but the fact that that would be used to discount the bad experience I had here just further goes to show me that this break won't be for five years it'll be permanent.

I haven't played the game in awhile.  I don't intend to come back.  But someone needs to speak out because the culture here really is twisted, and I do not appreciate my complaint being downplayed publicly by staff by misrepresenting the nature of the torture complaint.  If a character being stripped naked and flayed with a barbed whip without consent does not count as torture the rules in the documentation need to be made much clearer.

Everyone has trauma, the fact that you guys want to put the blame on the victim and a willingness to speculate on how I should take care of my own mental health is astounding.  I'm not even going to begin to go into my personal wellness.  Best of luck here guys.

[Is Friday]

he contacted her husband on Facebook and told him if she came back and talked to him he would offer her sponsored roles.

That sounds like a pretty good deal.

"Hey come back, we can give you a part-time job with a lot of stress and no pay."

[Doublepalli]

I love how Staff handled this.

Her character was stripped naked, and whipped. But it's not torture.

"We will get rid of slavery/torture as a playable thing in the game, but not in the method of branding and punishing them, even going so far as to give it neato code."

[triste]

I just want to say I support Bebop, Bebop bashing is bad.

I wish there was a better appeal process for complaints. I want to say from my experience these things have been handled well in game. I had a whole post prepared going over how I went through a similar situation and the situation wasn't sexualized because I didn't choose to emote it that way and no one else was a creep and did. But I also acknowledge something might have happened with Bebop's character unlike the cases the rest of us have seen where rules were followed.

If I have a PSA it is this:
- Please err on the side of caution and ask for consent often.
- It is true that you can play scenes that are in setting, such as a Militia or Byn whipping similar to the scene in Starship Troopers, but without it even being as gratuitous as Starship Troopers. I've seen it done. Crack, crack, it's done. I am a biologically female player who has played a female going through this without any emotes about her chest or whatever because that is not what the scene is about. I've also seen several other players manage to do this as well.
- If anyone violates consent rules, you as a player have many tools at your disposal to protect yourself. If the thing that Bebop describes happens to you, my recommendation is to OOC and ask for a FTB. If the other players deny that FTB, quit ooc and then file a complaint. Done. We're all adults here, and you have tools to protect yourselves. Good luck, I love you guys.

[Lotion]

I think if you have serious evidence of staff meta/ooc corruption then putting it in a staff complaint request is definitely appropriate and imo would probably be an effective way to make sure the right people see it.

[Malken]

I left after I literally had Shalooonsh immediately message my friend who returned to this game to complain about our former relationship from 7 years ago.  When she blocked him he contacted her husband on Facebook and told him if she came back and

The fact that you came back to Armageddon while Shalooonsh is on Staff is fucking insane all by itself.

Armageddon's community is fucked up and you have surrounded yourself with the most fucked elements of it in the past few years.

I'm not placing the blame for anything on you, I'm just telling you that for the love of everything that isn't fucked in this world, just run away and never look back.

To anyone who is reading this and want to play Armageddon, DO NOT GET INVOLVED IN ANYTHING OOC-RELATED. Do not make OOC friends with anyone. Just play the game in the game and when you log out, just log out. I've never met a sane Armageddon player, like, ever.

[Bebop]

I left after I literally had Shalooonsh immediately message my friend who returned to this game to complain about our former relationship from 7 years ago.  When she blocked him he contacted her husband on Facebook and told him if she came back and

The fact that you came back to Armageddon while Shalooonsh is on Staff is fucking insane all by itself.

Armageddon's community is fucked up and you have surrounded yourself with the most fucked elements of it in the past few years.

I'm not placing the blame for anything on you, I'm just telling you that for the love of everything that isn't fucked in this world, just run away and never look back.

To anyone who is reading this and want to play Armageddon, DO NOT GET INVOLVED IN ANYTHING OOC-RELATED. Do not make OOC friends with anyone. Just play the game in the game and when you log out, just log out. I've never met a sane Armageddon player, like, ever.

I had not had any contact or way of knowing he was on staff for 4 years.  I foolishly hoped that after that level of distance over that length of time I wouldn't encounter any issues. Once I realized by error I left again.  It doesn't make his behavior appropriate.  And if the community is willing to toss out those at the receiving end of this behavior while staff are complicit it says a lot about the community and its the death knell in my participation of it.

Both my and my friend don't feel comfortable playing.  We are not the only ones.  How long will this community shelter this behavior?

[LauraMars]

From what I recall the whip code does (or used to do) a few things to players:

Has a chance of giving them a "jagged whip scars" tattoo on back.
Has a chance of reducing their endurance (cannot remember if temporary or permanent reduction)
Whipcracks only "land" on the target if the person isn't wearing a shirt and is subdued (thus making it necessary for people to remove their clothes in order to be properly whipped with the whip code)

I don't think many other processes in the game can be used to give coded scars or coded stat reduction unless the player really clearly opts into the process themselves. You can't codedly force someone to sniff spice until they OD or get addicted, for example (though I imagine a player could consent to pursue this sort of storyline and pretend they're being forced). And you have to ask consent before you chop someone's leg off, for example (because that would also affect play).

While I do get where staff is coming from regarding players consenting to experiencing unpleasant code simply because they play this game where you can vomit out your insides by swallowing the wrong pill, etc...bahamet grievous damage and so forth, maybe the material damage that the whip object can do means that particular object should be an exception to the coded rule thing? Maybe just ask someone if they consent to be whipped with the coded whip object that could give them real scars? I don't think that's unreasonable.

[triste]

I left after I literally had Shalooonsh immediately message my friend who returned to this game to complain about our former relationship from 7 years ago.  When she blocked him he contacted her husband on Facebook and told him if she came back and

The fact that you came back to Armageddon while Shalooonsh is on Staff is fucking insane all by itself.

Armageddon's community is fucked up and you have surrounded yourself with the most fucked elements of it in the past few years.

I'm not placing the blame for anything on you, I'm just telling you that for the love of everything that isn't fucked in this world, just run away and never look back.

To anyone who is reading this and want to play Armageddon, DO NOT GET INVOLVED IN ANYTHING OOC-RELATED. Do not make OOC friends with anyone. Just play the game in the game and when you log out, just log out. I've never met a sane Armageddon player, like, ever.

I had not had any contact or way of knowing he was on staff for 4 years.  I foolishly hoped that after that level of distance I wouldn't encounter any issues. Once I realized by error 8 left again.  It doesn't make his behavior appropriate.  And if the community is willing to toss out those at the receiving end of this behavior while staff are complicit it says a lot about the community and its the death knell in my participation of it.

Listen, stop assuming we're all against you. Why do you think I keep talking about electing staff.

I don't know what our mechanism is, but you are also in the shitty situation ex-spouses who shared the same workplace, property, etc have as well. And I like you more if I am allowed to say that. But what's our mechanism? Please don't go to Reddit with this drama, I'm so tired of that. I support you but what's our proactive approach here (similar to Lotion's question)?

[Dresan]

[mansa]

I'd like to see the consent rules expanded to include involuntary nudity, among other things.
That help file can definitely use some polish.  We should be more welcoming of players objections to the scenes we involve them in, and not get in a tiff about the use of the out-of-character command.

[triste]

Full agree. Use OOC commands as I've recommended twice. Everyone currently is protected here, expanding on the file can help. And lastly, a formalized appeal process for bad verdicts like Bebop alleges might help. Or voting for staff or something.

[Malken]

Full agree. Use OOC commands as I've recommended twice. Everyone currently is protected here, expanding on the file can help. And lastly, a formalized appeal process for bad verdicts like Bebop alleges might help. Or voting for staff or something.

When most staff complaints tend to be traced back to the same individual over and over again and nothing is being done about it, I don't know why you expect anything different just because #BLM is trending right now. Armageddon lives in its own bubble and always did and always will. It's just a fact of life. Embrace that fact and enjoy Armageddon for what it is or don't and just move on with your life.

[Heade]

I'd like to see the consent rules expanded to include involuntary nudity, among other things.
That help file can definitely use some polish.  We should be more welcoming of players objections to the scenes we involve them in, and not get in a tiff about the use of the out-of-character command.

I think we should do away with consent rules so that expectations of coddling go from wherever they are now to nil. Make Armageddon Great Again. #NoConsent

[Saellyn]

Make Armageddon Great Again.

#NoConsent.

[Thomoto]

https://imgur.com/gallery/XWX5hYQ


Funny thing.

[DesertT]

Make Armageddon Great Again.

#NoConsent.

Seconded, though Technically Thirded since Heade started it.

[triste]

I'd like to see the consent rules expanded to include involuntary nudity, among other things.
That help file can definitely use some polish.  We should be more welcoming of players objections to the scenes we involve them in, and not get in a tiff about the use of the out-of-character command.

I think we should do away with consent rules so that expectations of coddling go from wherever they are now to nil. Make Armageddon Great Again. #NoConsent

Or, as you said and agreed with me earlier about, no consent, but FTB ok. It's like a FTB in film or narrative and doesn't impede storytelling while still protecting players.

Full agree. Use OOC commands as I've recommended twice. Everyone currently is protected here, expanding on the file can help. And lastly, a formalized appeal process for bad verdicts like Bebop alleges might help. Or voting for staff or something.

When most staff complaints tend to be traced back to the same individual over and over again and nothing is being done about it, I don't know why you expect anything different just because #BLM is trending right now. Armageddon lives in its own bubble and always did and always will. It's just a fact of life. Embrace that fact and enjoy Armageddon for what it is or don't and just move on with your life.

It's the understanding I've come to have as well, and I largely agree with one player who says it's like playing a game of DnD and having to agree to the DM's rules. That said, it might, maybe, just maybe a little bit, might be nice if staff could look into issues if multiple players are complaining/quitting over the same matter or staffer.

[Brokkr]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

Bebop had her interpretation of documentation and its purpose.  Staff had an interpretation of documentation and its purpose.  Staff rendered a decision.  Bebop disagreed with the reasoning behind the decision and the decision.

As far as I can tell, there wasn't disagreement on actual events.  There weren't graphic emotes.  The core is that Bebop believes consent should be required for whipping, irregardless of anything else that may or may not happen in the scene.  Staff disagreed with that.

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

[Malken]

Make Armageddon Great Again.

#NoConsent.

In a totally messed up way, this would probably triple our playerbase overnight. 

[Thomoto]

Make Armageddon Great Again.

#NoConsent.

ooc consent.

[Malken]

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

Anyone remembers the dude that walked into the Sanctuary with a 5-lines tdesc describing his ding dong and had forgotten to turn it off? That was epic.

No one would go for his ooc excuse that he would never had forgotten to put on pants before walking into the Sanctuary, especially not the Chosen Lord present.

[triste]

There weren't graphic emotes.

If these are the facts of the case, great. I am curious about how the facts are determined. Not by a jury of Bebop's peers.

Unfortunately because of the lack of visibility into the facts I cannot have a strong opinion either way, but I will re-iterate that I've seen the consent rules followed as they currently exist, and I've seen players be considerate and ask consent for scenes beyond the bare minimum set of scenes you have to ask consent for.

[Yam]

the make arm great again #noconsent crew can fuck right off. seriously. fuck off. go somewhere elese.

but also bebop. enough with the shit stirring.

fuck

just stop it. please stop

stop


stopppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

[Thomoto]

the make arm great again #noconsent crew can fuck right off. seriously. fuck off. go somewhere elese.

but also bebop. enough with the shit stirring.

fuck

just stop it. please stop

stop


stopppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

no u
.dab

[Cendell]

Arm is a 100% surveillance environment. There is no ambiguity. There is no interpretation. Staff can see every command, every person in every scene type into the game and press enter. You don't need a bunch of "peers" to hear different sides and decide what is most likely to have happened.

We don't need elected Staff (The stupidest idea) and we don't need player juries deliberating on random aspects of the game.

/derail

There weren't graphic emotes.

If these are the facts of the case, great. I am curious about how the facts are determined. Not by a jury of Bebop's peers.

Unfortunately because of the lack of visibility into the facts I cannot have a strong opinion either way, but I will re-iterate that I've seen the consent rules followed as they currently exist, and I've seen players be considerate and ask consent for scenes beyond the bare minimum set of scenes you have to ask consent for.

[tapas]

@Bebop take it from someone who gets real mad at the game. Like real maaaaad at the game.

Take a breather and 24 hours before you decide to post anymore drama. Including staff interactions, requests, discord convos, etc. It'll feel good now, but it'll just serve to burn bridges you wish you hadn't.

#noconsent

Fuck off.

[triste]

Arm is a 100% surveillance environment. There is no ambiguity. There is no interpretation. Staff can see every command, every person in every scene type into the game and press enter. You don't need a bunch of "peers" to hear different sides and decide what is most likely to have happened.

We don't need elected Staff (The stupidest idea) and we don't need player juries deliberating on random aspects of the game.

/derail

There weren't graphic emotes.

If these are the facts of the case, great. I am curious about how the facts are determined. Not by a jury of Bebop's peers.

Unfortunately because of the lack of visibility into the facts I cannot have a strong opinion either way, but I will re-iterate that I've seen the consent rules followed as they currently exist, and I've seen players be considerate and ask consent for scenes beyond the bare minimum set of scenes you have to ask consent for.

Fine, I give it up and I'll never mention it again. I am just concerned because players keep saying they're quitting over this but I'll stop empathizing with them I guess.

[Malken]

Fine, I give it up and I'll never mention it again. I am just concerned because players keep saying they're quitting over this but I'll stop empathizing with them I guess.

That's how you'll live long and prosper. 🖖

[mansa]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

...

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

I totally understand that.  Characters can walk around buck wild all they want.  However...

It is my opinion that involuntary nudity immediately becomes sexual, as it is not the player's choice to make their character remove their clothes.  When another character with authority/power over yours makes/requests your character to be naked, it's immediately crosses my line of consent.  I would kindly request that anyone that wants to continue a scene like that would simply go Out-Of-Character using the OOC command and say, 'consent to continue ?'

I view consent as a sliding scale from moment to moment, and though I may consent to being stripped and whipped, I wouldn't consent to have my hand cut off, boiled in belshun wine, and fed to me while I was strapped to a pole.   And maybe I might be, if I felt like exploring that and I was in that frame of mind at that time of day.  But consent it isn't all or nothing, and consent is so simple to ask for...

[triste]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

...

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

I totally understand that.  Characters can walk around buck wild all they want.  However...

It is my opinion that involuntary nudity immediately becomes sexual, as it is not the player's choice to make their character remove their clothes.  When another character with authority/power over yours makes/requests your character to be naked, it's immediately crosses my line of consent.  I would kindly request that anyone that wants to continue a scene like that would simply go Out-Of-Character using the OOC command and say, 'consent to continue ?'

I view consent as a sliding scale from moment to moment, and though I may consent to being stripped and whipped, I wouldn't consent to have my hand cut off, boiled in belshun wine, and fed to me while I was strapped to a pole.   And maybe I might be, if I felt like exploring that and I was in that frame of mind at that time of day.  But consent it isn't all or nothing, and consent is so simple to ask for...

Everyone's line of consent is different. As we see, we have people who believe in no consent.

Your line of consent isn't allowed to spontaneously invalidate someone else's line of consent, so what do we do?

I might be in favor of consent for nudity, but how do we register everyone's opinion?

If voting is stupid, someone answer that.

In the meantime? I'd like to tell a short story about the very-fucking-awesome player I made a shout out to earlier. Arguably -- indeed, enforcably -- in our modern life, it is wrong for politicians in power to abuse their power to coerce their aides to do things. In Armageddon, this happens all the fucking time. But only once have I seen a player ask consent before abusing their power in this way. They asked consent before doing the most inane fucking thing -- touching my character's cheek -- but in the mind of a RL harassment survivor this could be triggering. So I thought them asking for consent was cool as fuck. I kudosed them.

Does this mean I think people should ask consent before every problematic scene involving a power differential? No fucking way. Do I think players who are considerate and ask for consent in scenes beyond the minimum are cool? Hell yes, because consent is sexy -- and indeed is mandatory in some cases.

[Thomoto]

The consent rules aren't here to spare violence and suffering, but to avoid people having to deal with:

- sexual content they don't want to deal with
- their character being made 'unplayable' through mutilation
- being forced to watch a bunch of gory emotes when coded death ones would suffice

Things like nudity are fine.  The line is crossed when that becomes sexualized, because we have a stance that nudity, in and of itself, isn't sexual.

...

While I understand that there is dissatisfaction with the outcome of the decision, it is not the sort of thing where there is right or wrong, but rather about where a line is drawn. You can escalate a decision to the Producers if you so wish, but the extent to which a decision satisfies the person that initiated the complaint is not something that is going to sway us, rather it is the appropriateness of the decision itself.

I totally understand that.  Characters can walk around buck wild all they want.  However...

It is my opinion that involuntary nudity immediately becomes sexual, as it is not the player's choice to make their character remove their clothes.  When another character with authority/power over yours makes/requests your character to be naked, it's immediately crosses my line of consent.  I would kindly request that anyone that wants to continue a scene like that would simply go Out-Of-Character using the OOC command and say, 'consent to continue ?'

I view consent as a sliding scale from moment to moment, and though I may consent to being stripped and whipped, I wouldn't consent to have my hand cut off, boiled in belshun wine, and fed to me while I was strapped to a pole.   And maybe I might be, if I felt like exploring that and I was in that frame of mind at that time of day.  But consent it isn't all or nothing, and consent is so simple to ask for...

Everyone's line of consent is different. As we see, we have people who believe in no consent.

Your line of consent isn't allowed to spontaneously invalidate someone else's line of consent, so what do we do?

I might be in favor of consent for nudity, but how do we register everyone's opinion?

If voting is stupid, someone answer that.

In the meantime? I'd like to tell a short story about the very-fucking-awesome player I made a shout out to earlier. Arguably -- indeed, enforcably -- in our modern life, it is wrong for politicians in power to abuse their power to coerce their aides to do things. In Armageddon, this happens all the fucking time. But only once have I seen a player ask consent before abusing their power in this way. They asked consent before doing the most inane fucking thing -- touching my character's cheek -- but in the mind of a RL harassment survivor this could be triggering. So I thought them asking for consent was cool as fuck. I kudosed them.

Does this mean I think people should ask consent before every problematic scene involving a power differential? No fucking way. Do I think players who are considerate and ask for consent in scenes beyond the minimum are cool? Hell yes, because consent is sexy -- and indeed is mandatory in some cases.

consent to touch a cheek?
...
Why?

[triste]

Power differentials dude.

But this gets to the point under discussion. Mansa's consent for nudity... why? When it's more welcomed and less taboo in Europe and other contexts.

BTW, I believe you're underaged. There are things you legally need to ask consent for IRL, don't get in trouble, ask your teachers. Don't care to discuss this anymore with anyone who is underaged fyi to anyone else here.

[Thomoto]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

[Malken]

This game is so doomed.

Doomed I tell ye!

[triste]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

While I am a big fan of "Free the Nipple" as a feminist, and so disagree with Mansa as a pro-freedom feminist, I'd love for us all to be able to say whether we want more or less consent rules and have our opinions count.

[Thomoto]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

Then don't say shit like that if you're okay with me voting as much as anyone.
Jesus get your thoughts straight.

[triste]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

Then don't say shit like that if you're okay with me voting as much as anyone.
Jesus get your thoughts straight.

My thoughts are clear -- if I see a kid cheering on people talking about "no consent," I want to make sure they know about legal consent before they get in trouble. I am not trying to be condescending, I just strongly believe it's important for young people to know the law. I used to hand out pamphlets about the law when I was in highschool to my classmates. I am sorry I am a fucking dork and lame I honestly didn't mean ill by it.

[BadSkeelz]

Fine, I give it up and I'll never mention it again. I am just concerned because players keep saying they're quitting over this but I'll stop empathizing with them I guess.

People keep saying they're quitting and then they're back in less than a week complaining. Probably be healthier for them to just completely walk away.

Also, Yam's right.

[Heade]

I want to make sure they know about legal consent before they get in trouble. I am not trying to be condescending, I just strongly believe it's important for young people to know the law.

Well, if you feel that way, then you should be aware that consent rules don't protect you from interactions with a minor. A minor who gives consent legally cannot give consent, and so the consent means nothing.

#noconsent

Fuck off.

Fuck on. Make Armageddon Great Again. #NoConsent

[Malken]

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

You could start with an unofficial GDB poll but I fear that might show you just how much of a bad idea voting on issues would be.

[Thomoto]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

Then don't say shit like that if you're okay with me voting as much as anyone.
Jesus get your thoughts straight.

My thoughts are clear -- if I see a kid cheering on people talking about "no consent," I want to make sure they know about legal consent before they get in trouble. I am not trying to be condescending, I just strongly believe it's important for young people to know the law. I used to hand out pamphlets about the law when I was in highschool to my classmates. I am sorry I am a fucking dork and lame I honestly didn't mean ill by it.

I'm not gonna add anymore than: You missed the fucking point.
Also, microaggression is a thing.

[triste]

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

You could start with an unofficial GDB poll but I fear that might show you just how much of a bad idea voting on issues would be.

Staff already removed GDB voting because obviously it's easy to manipulate. While Armageddon could easily implement account locked voting, I'm willing to give it up.

Brokkr's reply to this thread was sufficient. We don't need the change mansa's proposing, it's repressive. Staff have a well thought out policy. Like BadSkeelz said, yam's reply is the best player reply here.

[triste]

Just because you ask me to not be apart of a discussion doesn't I'll stop. Fuck off with that bullshit, please and thank you.
There's your politeness so hopefully you don't start bitching out as a victim.

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

Then don't say shit like that if you're okay with me voting as much as anyone.
Jesus get your thoughts straight.

My thoughts are clear -- if I see a kid cheering on people talking about "no consent," I want to make sure they know about legal consent before they get in trouble. I am not trying to be condescending, I just strongly believe it's important for young people to know the law. I used to hand out pamphlets about the law when I was in highschool to my classmates. I am sorry I am a fucking dork and lame I honestly didn't mean ill by it.

I'm not gonna add anymore than: You missed the fucking point.
Also, microaggression is a thing.

I apologized to you and am not being micro-aggressive. Anyway I wish you the best.

[Heade]

Make Armageddon Great Again.

#NoConsent.

In a totally messed up way, this would probably triple our playerbase overnight. 

[Thomoto]

Again, you obviously missed the point.

At least thanks for the apology as half-assed as it is.

[Malken]

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

You could start with an unofficial GDB poll but I fear that might show you just how much of a bad idea voting on issues would be.

Staff already removed GDB voting because obviously it's easy to manipulate. While Armageddon could easily implement account locked voting, I'm willing to give it up.

Brokkr's reply to this thread was sufficient. We don't need the change mansa's proposing, it's repressive. Staff have a well thought out policy. Like BadSkeelz said, yam's reply is the best player reply here.

Oh, well I wasn't aware of that.

Well, https://strawpoll.com/create would be another good place... One IP, one vote.

It wouldn't really be worth much but at least it'd give you a good understanding of the kind of playerbase you're dealing with here.

[triste]

If we had voting, I'd let you have as much a vote as anyone, it's just uncomfortable discussing it with you. More reason voting would be nice. Everyone can simply register their opinion before game changes are made.

You could start with an unofficial GDB poll but I fear that might show you just how much of a bad idea voting on issues would be.

Staff already removed GDB voting because obviously it's easy to manipulate. While Armageddon could easily implement account locked voting, I'm willing to give it up.

Brokkr's reply to this thread was sufficient. We don't need the change mansa's proposing, it's repressive. Staff have a well thought out policy. Like BadSkeelz said, yam's reply is the best player reply here.

Oh, well I wasn't aware of that.

Well, https://strawpoll.com/create would be another good place... One IP, one vote.

It wouldn't really be worth much but at least it'd give you a good understanding of the kind of playerbase you're dealing with here.

I'd be unphased as "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," is one of the core tenets of my life.

I am tired of seeing people like Heade on one side and Mansa on the other, one asking for no consent rules and one asking for more strict consent rules, and having no way of compromising it.

I am tired of seeing Bebop quit because of some awful shit she said happened, and seeing Barsook quit because Bebop brought up this shit and it's annoying.

But other people here say voting is a "stupid" idea; fine, I'll concede Voltaire and a vast swathe of more contemporary intellectuals are stupid. Who has a better idea than voting or representative government?

[Brokkr]

I have a sense when you talk about voting, you are really talking about votes that decide the outcome, rather than an opinion poll.

This is not a government.  Decision-making authority is not going to be conceded to some player voting mechanism.  Staff will retain decision-making power.  Ultimate decision making power resides with the three Producers.

After multiple seeming "fuck yous" back and forth in this thread, I am locking it, as lacking in keeping to at least a basic level of respectful discourse.