Author Topic: Subclass Swap  (Read 1887 times)

DesertT

  • Posts: 948
Subclass Swap
« on: March 29, 2020, 11:34:32 AM »
Would there be a way to implement a Subclass Swap?

When I create a character, sometimes I'm not quite sure just where they'll start off. 

OR, something happens and I find myself in an entirely different scenario than I anticipated or intended.

How hard would it be to say something like, Hey, within the first 3 days of play, if you want to sub out ONCE, you can.  :D

Just Curious!!

Anybody else on board?   ;D
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

mansa

  • Posts: 9874
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 11:36:14 AM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

DesertT

  • Posts: 948
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 11:43:51 AM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.
This'll work too!!
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 319
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 02:32:21 PM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.

I think this would be the best choice. It would allow for genuinely fun manifestation roleplay without some turd ruining the fun and sniffing your gickiness before your character is even aware of it, themselves.

WarriorPoet

  • Posts: 4702
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 08:30:33 PM »
I have had this happen before. I would have happily burned a karma point to switch.
We were somewhere near the Shield Wall, on the edge of the Red Desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

Krath

  • Posts: 2601
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 08:39:58 PM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.
This!
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

X-D

  • Posts: 5739
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2020, 09:25:18 PM »
I am...oddly, on board with the mansa suggestion.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Rokal

  • Posts: 453
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2020, 08:10:07 PM »
I support the subclass selection after creation idea too .

Lotion

  • Posts: 58
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2020, 11:34:21 PM »
I like this idea.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 184
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2020, 04:09:44 PM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.

I think this would be the best choice. It would allow for genuinely fun manifestation roleplay without some turd ruining the fun and sniffing your gickiness before your character is even aware of it, themselves.

I think this is fixed. Afaik if you're unmanifested, you're also undetectable by code. Can staff confirm this?

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 988
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2020, 11:36:31 PM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

mansa

  • Posts: 9874
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2020, 12:03:32 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

Delaying the choice of what subclass you want to have with your character will allow your character to decide what sort of jobs they want to do and what sort proficiency they want to reach for, after they are in game and making decisions in game.  It allows more flexibility of skills/characterization if the initial concept doesn't work out immediately.

Consider these examples:

Character chooses to make a Fighter.
They start in game, they try and join the T'zai Byn and they can't find a Sergeant, but they eventually find someone from Salarr.  They hit it up at the bar and the Salarri says, 'Can you make armor?'
You reply, 'No, but I can learn!'
Pick Subclass - Armormaker


Character chooses to make a Craftsperson.
They search and search for a Kadian because they want to join up with that house, but can't find anyone.  They eventually meet up with the Steel Talon militia, and the Templar recruits them into it.  The soldiers force them to start combat training.
Pick Subclass - Guard


It's not about meta gaming and code knowledge.  It's about being able to pick skills that you want your character to learn after they've been in game and have decided who they really want to be, and what jobs are hiring and training.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

DesertT

  • Posts: 948
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2020, 12:11:52 AM »
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

X-D

  • Posts: 5739
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2020, 12:26:34 AM »
Seconded.

Besides....for those of us who like organic growth, it just seems badass that I could at least fake it depending on what happens to my PC. I plan on making a hunter trader...but shit happens and I end up doing something totally different...and hey, my PC actually gets to learn something in that direction.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8502
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2020, 01:01:10 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

Brokkr's right. You guys should metapregame and app in knowing exactly what you're going to do from chargen. /sarcasm

It's less metagamey being able to choose a subclass based on experienced circumstances than it is choosing one at chargen.
janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

Lotion

  • Posts: 58
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2020, 02:11:11 AM »
+1 to what mansa wrote

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 988
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2020, 11:52:53 AM »
Positional context Mansa.

Maybe try looking at the part of the thread immediately preceding my comments.  Although I guess this is a good example of how folks in recent years tend to take things Staff post in the worst, most personal way possible.  Did not feel the need to quote, since the post explicitly says

Can staff confirm this?

Other than that, when originally rolled out years ago, subclasses were supposed to be skills you picked up in your background, before you started play.  As such, you never really focused on them, thus the original names and skill levels.  Class skills were the skills in the area you focused on after you started play.  Admittedly, we have come a ways since then.

I don't really have an opinion other than an actual subclass swap would be a nightmare.

mansa

  • Posts: 9874
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2020, 12:17:38 PM »
Positional context Mansa.

Maybe try looking at the part of the thread immediately preceding my comments.  Although I guess this is a good example of how folks in recent years tend to take things Staff post in the worst, most personal way possible.  Admittedly, we have come a ways since then.

My friend, I can't possibly take anything you say personally.  :)   I admit I view the GDB and threads so that I don't think anybody is replying to anything specific without an inline quote.


...
I don't really have an opinion other than an actual subclass swap would be a nightmare.

The swap itself?  Yes.

The delayed selection?  No, I think it's possible.  In my opinion, the tricky thing would be magicker subclasses, because we don't want to have too many of them in game.  Perhaps if someone wants to pick a magicker subclass, they need to submit a request or some other limiting gate.


I would probably imagine something like this:


0. Teleport character to subclass selection NPC / Room.
1. Display to character subclass selection.  (minus Magicker Subclasses)
2. Character picks subclass selection.
3. Check characters's current skill list.   If not on current skill list, add to current skill list.
4. Check characters's current skill list and do a verification check if current skill %'s should pop next skill's branch.
5. Return character to previous room.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

Krath

  • Posts: 2601
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2020, 02:12:25 PM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

Delaying the choice of what subclass you want to have with your character will allow your character to decide what sort of jobs they want to do and what sort proficiency they want to reach for, after they are in game and making decisions in game.  It allows more flexibility of skills/characterization if the initial concept doesn't work out immediately.

Consider these examples:

Character chooses to make a Fighter.
They start in game, they try and join the T'zai Byn and they can't find a Sergeant, but they eventually find someone from Salarr.  They hit it up at the bar and the Salarri says, 'Can you make armor?'
You reply, 'No, but I can learn!'
Pick Subclass - Armormaker


Character chooses to make a Craftsperson.
They search and search for a Kadian because they want to join up with that house, but can't find anyone.  They eventually meet up with the Steel Talon militia, and the Templar recruits them into it.  The soldiers force them to start combat training.
Pick Subclass - Guard


It's not about meta gaming and code knowledge.  It's about being able to pick skills that you want your character to learn after they've been in game and have decided who they really want to be, and what jobs are hiring and training.

This
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 184
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2020, 04:09:01 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

It's relevant for the discussion, so we don't talk about how to fix a problem that may no longer exist and that Cabooze seemed to worry about. I honestly don't see a great potential for metaplay here. I'll also shut up now  :)

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 472
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2020, 07:19:48 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

A player playing an unmanifested magicker would need to know. The entire concept is turned upside down because the code, even though they haven't manifested, says otherwise.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 988
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2020, 11:08:56 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

A player playing an unmanifested magicker would need to know. The entire concept is turned upside down because the code, even though they haven't manifested, says otherwise.

To play the character in that situation you don't need to know the outcome of the code.  Knowing the code just helps you avoid potentially negative situations, maybe.  That is precisely meta play.

th3kaiser

  • Posts: 506
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2020, 11:53:10 AM »
Is this possibly just a matter of perspective? I think a lot of players view people being able to detect unmanifested mages as a bug. Is this one of those things that staff think are a feature?

Bugs get talked about, features we keep sekrit for reasons.

But in any case, I'm not against this idea for non-karma subs. You wanna wait? You get the base subs.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2148
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2020, 04:34:28 PM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

A player playing an unmanifested magicker would need to know. The entire concept is turned upside down because the code, even though they haven't manifested, says otherwise.

To play the character in that situation you don't need to know the outcome of the code.  Knowing the code just helps you avoid potentially negative situations, maybe.  That is precisely meta play.

Its not though, in fact its the exact opposite.

It cuts down on out of character behavior, they would now know whether or not their supposedly unmanifested character, who had never shown any signs of magicks, would show up as being magickal just because they picked a subclass. Getting pegged as magickal before you are ready can be concept ruining.

And all because some other player behind their keyboard likes to abuse the mechanics of finding out if PC's are magickal or not by just testing at random?

It cuts down on out of character behavior, by allowing them to actually interact with Templars and not have an anxiety attack about whether or not they are going to be found it. Regardless of whether or not they actually can be found out prior to manifesting.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 988
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2020, 06:30:19 PM »
It cuts down on out of character behavior, they would now know whether or not their supposedly unmanifested character, who had never shown any signs of magicks, would show up as being magickal just because they picked a subclass.

If they are making the decision to act one way or another, because they know the code is going to act in a certain way, that is meta behavior.  You aren't giving a contrary example here.  You are giving an example of someone acting in a meta way.  Just because some of us are used to a certain level of meta and this doesn't rise to that level, doesn't mean this behavior isn't meta, it just means some of us are jaded.

Lets say there are two entirely reasonable alternatives.

  • Things that detect whether you are an elementalist are only able to do so after some life event.
  • Things that detect whether you are an elementalist can do so from birth, since all elementalists have that affinity from birth.

If either is plausible IC'ly, then you don't need to know which of the two is actually correct.  The desire to change one's play because one knows which of the two is correct is quite obviously meta, because there is no basis for a character IG to know which is correct.