Author Topic: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?  (Read 4553 times)

titansfan

  • Posts: 981
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2019, 09:11:12 AM »
That being said, everyone nowadays is important to atleast one high power pc except Breedo Suave. So as a raider, not attacking important people means going and killing npc humanoids that don't exist in the southern deserts or sitting around.
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Bogre

  • Posts: 3313
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2019, 10:17:11 AM »
I concur with Armaddict. Just anecdotally, there used to be a lot more face to face violence. People would try to kill you by typing <kill you>. There would still be poisoning, apartment kills or compound kills were still highly prevalent, but now the bar seems there is a high hesitance to engage unless you can be sure of killing someone. This comes about I think because of all the aforementioned factors. People are highly invested in their characters and time/karma spent, and conflict seems to devolve to blood-feuds until both ally PC groups are put down. It's also much tougher to gain distance from conflict without a second large in game area - if your PC dies to Allanak or Storm conflict, there isn't a major area to go play in without being immediately back in the same PC arena.

Things I don't know - is it minor infractions people tend to inflate? "Oh, you insulted me, to maintain un-shame now you get killed?" Is it the intolerance of players for rivals with the fear that - if you let a rival stew or sit, they'll just be able to ace you out if you don't get to them first?

I still think that the #1 conflict improvement in the game would be to allow Mdesc hiding and anonymity. Because right now - people lean on remaining anonymous by 1) achieving master+ hide/sneak and being completely invisible or 2) dead PCs tell no tales.
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Greve

  • Posts: 174
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2019, 11:28:07 AM »
Things I don't know - is it minor infractions people tend to inflate? "Oh, you insulted me, to maintain un-shame now you get killed?" Is it the intolerance of players for rivals with the fear that - if you let a rival stew or sit, they'll just be able to ace you out if you don't get to them first?

In my experience, it's not based so much on the size of the infraction. It's more about the fact that a lot of players are so starved for story and character purpose that they'll leap at any opportunity to "make something happen," but with the limited tools available to the common player, PKing is one of the very few things you can do that actually matters to others. Nobles barely exist anymore for all intents and purposes, compared to the days when they were a common sight around both cities and had much more freedom to do things other than sign their names on this year's cookie-cutter festival, so political retaliation was more feasible in the past. There was large-scale conflict where you could betray people and switch sides. There were many more important items floating around, like magic or metal equipment, which could be stolen. Apartments were actually usable since there weren't thirty active burglars in the city, so people kept stuff there that was worth robbing. Over the years, the game has gradually shifted toward a state where there's not a whole lot to do, so killing becomes one of the few ways that you can make others care about your existence, and most other forms of instigation/retaliation have become futile due to the erosion of game depth.

Quote
I still think that the #1 conflict improvement in the game would be to allow Mdesc hiding and anonymity. Because right now - people lean on remaining anonymous by 1) achieving master+ hide/sneak and being completely invisible or 2) dead PCs tell no tales.

I think spicing up the story aspect of the game would go a lot further than things like mdesc masks. On the list of things that foster and improve conflict, masks would be somewhere down the middle, below plot and character purpose and meaningful clan goals. Give players things to care about other than having the biggest coded dick on the block and I think we'll see less of the hair-trigger PKing that Armageddon has become known for in recent years. I don't believe most players really want to go around murdering all the time, but if that's the only way they can feel like their PCs are relevant and noticeable at all, they will. If the game had something resembling an actual story, something to sink your teeth into and make a name for yourself, people would be less prone to PKing at the drop of a hat.


Twilight

  • Posts: 1722
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2019, 11:54:37 AM »
When there are folks who are win at all costs and they get into positions of power or coded power, it becomes a race to the bottom.
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."

roughneck

  • Posts: 848
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2019, 11:59:41 AM »
Comparison to the 'old days'
  • Apartments didn't exist, then when they did, were more rare
  • Regular poison used to be more lethal, because there were way fewer cures
  • Less ornate and custom items
  • Much less focus on 'building up' and most emphasis on story

Not that building is a bad thing, but characters have a lot more to lose now. Warehouses, player started clans, cutom items, staff sponsorship, etc.

I don't remember any of that stuff 15+ years ago.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 12:03:12 PM by roughneck »

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6213
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2019, 12:28:52 PM »
When there are folks who are win at all costs and they get into positions of power or coded power, it becomes a race to the bottom.

Just as relevant: When there are folks who view character progression for ambitious characters with other characters as obstacles as 'win at all costs', you're not going to have a particularly high bar either. Sure, you may write out lots of fantastic things, but if your conflicts don't make you feel that small bit of fear, just like your character, of 'What if they get an elf to knife me in an alley, I should be careful', you've made a pretty shallow Armageddon story.

Cutthroat actions, conniving, plotting, and ambushing are part of the Armageddon world.  This is not a statement of some dude justifying his actions, it's a statement that the 'win vs roleplay' facet does not really exist: characters do very harsh things in Armageddon for a variety of reasons, whether those characters are played by humans or they are just part of the story.

Comparison to the 'old days'
  • Apartments didn't exist, then when they did, were more rare
  • Regular poison used to be more lethal, because there were way fewer cures
  • Less ornate and custom items
  • Much less focus on 'building up' and most emphasis on story

Not that building is a bad thing, but characters have a lot more to lose now. Warehouses, player started clans, cutom items, staff sponsorship, etc.

I don't remember any of that stuff 15+ years ago.

Sorry, I'm not sure why you brought this up but my assumption is that you read my post as a 'good ol' days' post.  It wasn't, I was saying, anecdotally, that there seem to be some factors between then and now that changed the face of player vs player conflict, with particular emphasis on when that conflict is combat-focused.  Some of those things can't really be helped (i.e. Player experience; we have all gotten pretty good at recognizing opportunity vs folley in many scenarios), and some might be able to be helped (i.e. What's being done now with code to try to make poisons less available despite more access).  Some things shifted that made it easier to survive for seriously long periods of time, which increased bandwagon approaches and availability of hard-to-get things whether via wealth or direct skills, etc etc.  There's just a lot of things that contribute to why violence between players has become -significantly- more lethal.  Again, anecdotally speaking.

I am in no way against building and progression of the game, with the only caveat being that sometimes, after a period of time, re-examining changes to see if they had the desired effect first, and unforeseen bad effects after, is a good thing.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Riev

  • Posts: 5611
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2019, 12:38:28 PM »
It is a valid concern, though, that players have 'more to lose' for their investments than before. And the acquisition of these new things requires a lot more I don't know the word... tenacity and survivability on behalf of the player. I'm not saying it used to be that you collect 100 blocky stone and you built a wall, but changes were more prevalent. Staff were more "If you RP it, it shall be" and it has now become "If we feel like working on it, and 2 admins approve of the building, we will send it along to a builder".

So my Byn Sergeant who is looking to, one day, own his own instrument shop has a LOT more up against him, and requires a longer period of 'survivability' and 'proof to staff that they can survive (in terms of RL days played)' that I have to kill my enemies. I can't leave someone alive who can ruin their plans.

In the before times, I was a Byn Sergeant because... well. Nobody else was. Lets go raid a spider nest, make 1500 coins per surviving member, buy a new sword from Salarr and drink the rest of it. Now we have so many more PCs who have goals and IC dreams that we can't risk it. If I want a warehouse, I have to be alive for what... 6 RL months or something? Plus make enough coin on the now dry-as-the-Vrun market every IC month (5000 coins every 2 weeks? Seems right.)
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6213
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2019, 01:03:28 PM »
It's a double sided thing.  Not only do we have players consistently gaining a lot more investment-time to lose...we also have a lot more unrelated characters looking to nose their way into conflict that they need to break the monotony.  In other words, your admittedly sloppy attempt that -could- have worked but didn't...usually doesn't just make you one enemy anymore.

Hell, you used to be able to try to knife someone in an alley, go sit near them at the bar, and listen to them try to rally people to arrest you or help them get you, usually to no avail.  This is what I mean by the justice seeking...there is a lot more prevalence of 'right the wrongs', even if it's a fringe party.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

roughneck

  • Posts: 848
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2019, 01:07:17 PM »
Sorry, I'm not sure why you brought this up but my assumption is that you read my post as a 'good ol' days' post.

More sharing a personal sentiment than trying to call you out for yours! All good my man.

Nile

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2019, 05:39:50 PM »
It's a double sided thing.  Not only do we have players consistently gaining a lot more investment-time to lose...we also have a lot more unrelated characters looking to nose their way into conflict that they need to break the monotony.  In other words, your admittedly sloppy attempt that -could- have worked but didn't...usually doesn't just make you one enemy anymore.

Hell, you used to be able to try to knife someone in an alley, go sit near them at the bar, and listen to them try to rally people to arrest you or help them get you, usually to no avail.  This is what I mean by the justice seeking...there is a lot more prevalence of 'right the wrongs', even if it's a fringe party.

Seriously. I remember having a lot of PVP like 10 years ago that was nothing like today. I remember spending two fucking hours on and off fighting with several other PCs in the 'rinth, chasing each other down etc. Nobody died and it was a lot of fun. Same for the PK characters that came along (Moogan back in Shorty's day.....amen to Shorty btw. dude got me hooked) who would hassle and fuck with people, jumping you, mugging you etc, but I don't remember much insta-ganking going on except for those high level assassinations.
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mansa

  • Posts: 9754
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2019, 05:46:30 PM »
Learn your heirachy spot, and stay in your lane.  Pay your dues and don't grumble.
Stop acting like a hero.
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RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19133
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2019, 06:12:35 PM »
I want to agree with Mansa. But I'm playing less so it's hard to say. Is there really some gamut of sudden PKing going on right now? Is it really a big problem? This used to be something you'd only see people complaining about when they recently lost a PC and needed to vent.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 06:24:11 PM by RogueGunslinger »

X-D

  • Posts: 5688
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2019, 07:19:13 PM »
Compared to even 10 years ago RGS, I would say...no. Very little PVP comparably and the actual PK's are abysmally small in number. Ignoring run ins with the law/Templars of course. To the point where I have been thinking of suggesting the motto be changed to "Skinned knees, Slightly crooked and sometimes rude people."

The number of long lived, really long lived and ancient PCs is crazy high, proof in and of itself I would say.

The changes to the mud in classes and magick make it harder then ever to PK other then surprise attacks, large groups or tricking or trapping one way or another.
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Nile

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2019, 02:35:56 AM »
Compared to even 10 years ago RGS, I would say...no. Very little PVP comparably and the actual PK's are abysmally small in number. Ignoring run ins with the law/Templars of course. To the point where I have been thinking of suggesting the motto be changed to "Skinned knees, Slightly crooked and sometimes rude people."

The number of long lived, really long lived and ancient PCs is crazy high, proof in and of itself I would say.

The changes to the mud in classes and magick make it harder then ever to PK other then surprise attacks, large groups or tricking or trapping one way or another.

Hard to say. I've had similar experiences with other people it seems, in which a PC was PK'd for literally no reason. This has happened multiple times. Other PKs were deserved, some I think were way overboard for the grievance; but that's cool, it's Zalanthas. It's when someone hunts down my obviously chargen PCs for no reason with no emotes/says/shouts/anything and kills them. One guy I even escaped from and he found me later. Same deal even though I would have obviously given up my chargen gear to live. Died like I was in a hack and slash game instead.

[redacted by Brokkr] Dude you seriously need to stop the vaguebook griping about that incident.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 11:41:08 AM by Brokkr »
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Harmless

  • Posts: 2813
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2019, 03:03:25 AM »
The quantity of pvp deaths is roughly the same. The strategy most often used has changed a lot, driven by many factors as said. A desire not to get caught, more familiarity with effective approaches, and more retaliation plots.

Haphazard PK attempts are definitely more rare. Usually when I get to 20+ days played I had at least one pvp scrap that I survived. Now, if I am targeted by a pk attempt at all, I will probably die.

People are disappearing a lot more. Yeah I can't say they were stored vs PKed vs PvE'ed. But mysterious absences have gotten more common than bodies ending up found outside or on the pile.

This is not necessarily a bad thing! I say that literally in the subject line for a reason. I didn't just die, but I have noticed a trend and it does seem like some vets are noticing differences also.

Some vets commented on my prior chats that the majority style of PvP in Nak has shifted to cloaks and daggers and disappearances. I agree.

The thing is, that if we want to enjoy our deaths, we really want more of the buildup. The buildup includes recognizing a threat, recognizing what you are doing or not doing to deal with it, and creating storyline and participation to involve others in the outcome. With open quarrels and disputes, you get more involvement. With a sudden apartment death, there may be little to no involvement in others, buildup or intrigue.

My goal here was not even hidden. I want to even the playing field. I don't need nerfs or code changes. I just want people to get why my character is yelling at them about being out at night or having no means to survive an attack. This is Zalanthas. It is a cruel world. Welcome to it. Be ready for its upsides and downsides. It isn't too hard to be long lived. I am not a twitchy pro twink at all. But I hit 20days plus on almost every role. I get to start my characters lives with my past failures behind me powering my decisions. My stat rolls have nearly universally sucked for years and years but I still play and live. You can do it, tell stories, be involved, have fun. It does take handling some code features which I am GLAD staff are finally becoming more open about. Then we can all better enjoy our harsh world simulation RPI.

But if staff felt like tweaking things further, that can work also.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 03:06:04 AM by Harmless »
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 6213
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2019, 11:16:17 AM »
There are a ton of factors to this so it's kind of a complex thing to tackle.  I honestly don't know how I'd handle it.  The three things I'd think of on a very -shallow- level (i.e. There may be serious issues with them under deeper inspection or in practice):
1) Sorry, Brokkr, I know this is beating a dead horse.  The new classes really need a separation between stealthiest and deadliest.  Miscreant can have all the stealth and best poison...but infiltrators, while obviously less stealthy, should be the effective 'defense' or 'hunter' of the stealth approach.  Edit:  For clarity, no scan for miscreants.  Bigger scan on infiltrators.  Even if it's at the cost of one of their virtually useless weapon skills.

2) Continue the work on poison availability.  It's early to see the effect of the new poison degradation, but honestly, I'd just move some of the sources and make the ones you can't really move far more risky.  Players are incredibly risk averse right now, and making it so that the market for the truly uncommon poisons is much smaller makes for more easily botched attempts.

3) This is for the players. 
Once, I played a character that received a report of a guy doing some bad thing or another against my noble's associate.  I tricked them, I got them to follow me outside the gates, I attacked them, they escaped after a few good hits.  I didn't find a place to lock them in, I didn't run them down, I didn't poison weapons...I just let my character be the badass he was with very little care about if someone found him later.

Good on them, they went back roleplaying their wounds...a messed up knee, a blood stream, and they were calling me out on my failed murder attempt as I walked back in.  "Ha!  You failed, I still live."  Before I could even respond, someone else said with amusement while looking them over.  "It certainly looks like a failure, that man isn't a raider.  Was there a lesson?"

They ended up limping away, amid appreciation given to my character over delivering a well deserved beating.

So in summary:  Sometimes a beating is good enough.  Sometimes, a beating doesn't need punishment.  Sometimes, we can take it as a notion of 'the way things are' vs 'Vendetta for the rest of my character's life'.  I know this can be difficult, but this honestly may be the best way for us all to get around it.  It does require that templars, nobles, merchants, thugs, and innocents all acknowledge that justice is a very different thing on this world, and we all don't need to build huge enemyships over character pride.

Edit:  And after writing that story, another idea of a % value argument for mercy so that you can fully intend on this sort of beating to various degrees.  Bonus is that crimflag types can have different mercy values for soldiers in the future.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 11:28:05 AM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2019, 08:51:37 PM »
So, reading the first post in this thread was pretty cringe-worthy. As I continued to read, I wasn't sure if it was sarcasm or not, so I continued reading through it, hoping for a punchline that I never found. It seems the OP was seriously suggesting those behaviors in game, when they don't make any sense from an IC perspective.

It's complete metagaming. Yes, kills in the game are generally surprises for a lot of reasons. But adopting those "safeguards" to extend the life of your PC makes your PC intolerable to RP with. Romantically involved characters that are so deathly afraid of "apartments" that they'd prefer to go mudsex their romantic interest in the bakery are just ridiculous.

It's not the "assassin" characters that you turn off by behaving this way IC. They will find a way to kill people regardless. It's everyone else. I'd contend that behaving this way IC would be more likely to make you a target, simply because other players OOCly will have a distaste for how "gamey" you're RPing your character.

I know I've had the displeasure of seeing people RP characters using all of the behaviors suggested in the OP, and while I hadn't wanted to kill them IC prior to them displaying said behavior, the behavior DID sour IC relationships with my PCs because it didn't make sense.

I do agree that certain things should be changed. Apartments shouldn't be the deathtraps that they are, in my opinion. But despite apartments often being deathtraps for PCs, they are not such for the VNPC world. They are much like apartments IRL. Sure, bad things happen in real apartments too, but you don't see people going straight homeless to avoid the possibility of bad things happening in a private residence. So, despite the fact that the code allows for apartment deathtraps, it's still incredibly poor RP to have all of your characters view apartments as deathtraps, because it makes no sense. We should RP our characters with the vNPC world in mind, and understand that the code doesn't always reflect the reality of the world.

Instead of compromising your RP, have a little integrity. RP a living, breathing character, and die from time to time. And if things like apartment deathtraps are a problem, address that issue. Bring it up on the forums and discuss ideas to bring that coded situation in line with the RPed reality that you're encouraged to roleplay, rather than reducing your RP to twinky, ridiculous actions that brings down the overall RP quality of the RPI.

Death SHOULD be quick and brutal. That is a reflection of reality. But roleplayers shouldn't let coded issues compromise their RP. That makes them just as bad, if not worse than the twinks who they're responding to.


EDITED TO ADD: I think there are a lot of things that could encourage alternatives to PK. I've discussed those in other threads, but this thread is about behaviors intended to safeguard against "surprise" PKs, so that is what I responded to.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 08:55:38 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Harmless

  • Posts: 2813
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2019, 09:39:20 AM »
Of course there was sarcasm in my OP. I am critiquing both the dominant PK statregy and the methods players use to beat them, which, obviously, are stagnating the RP environment. My writing style on the GDB is messy and blunt and people often misread the tone of my posts. I am not exactly writing for exposition here.

I try to propose both arguments for and against both sides of the debate in a way that showed how utterfly frustrating the status quo is.

Then I ended my OP by saying that this is how things are, but code changes can help fix it. However, I don't want to shove the ideas down staffs throat. I haven't exactly seen the game change when the GDB is used that way.

If my OP made you cringe, then it was effective at displaying the awful situation in game. I am seeing everyone's RP change over the way PK has spiraled and I don't like it at all. Embracing my 12 steps is not meant to "fix" the problem.

If staff watch my RP, they will uh, be finding me resting codedly in apartments aplenty, before and after I made this post.

Finally, I will go ahead and say this. Over a year ago I had a character murdered in an apartment. I woke up/logged on in it. Within less than a minute my key was stolen and I was given a say mid-backstab approach by a hidden person in the apartment, I noticed the key had been stolen from her inventory after the sudden "someone says" message. Tried to RP pleading for help, then the backstab gave my ~5days played PC heramide and that was it. "Sorry sweetheart, just bidness" was the line my PC heard.

Both my PC and that killer are dead >1 year ago now.

Around that time, another player, started her own thread on this topic. She did it for me. I appreciated that. I held my opinion then as I didn't want to break our OOC communication rules and divulge through my tone that I recently lost a character.

Well. Now I can talk openly about it and that is why this thread exists. The other thread focused on the decision to PK vs other plots. This one is going into the toxic meta effects of players overusing one PK strategy that has become OOC public knowledge. Both threads aren't meant to be focused on one player's experience but are meant to discuss how and why there are problems like these to begin with.

Here I felt we should openly discuss the shit that makes players hesitant to do what you are saying, Heade, which is roleplay a believable role.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 09:54:21 AM by Harmless »
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Harmless

  • Posts: 2813
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2019, 10:13:02 AM »
By the way, you all should know that the 12 steps I've posted have all pretty much come from other players. If it made you cringe to read it here, imagine receiving the advice in that OP through IC means. It'll make you cringe there, to hear other people rp like so:

A templar says, 'Apartments are deathtraps.' But, there is nothing more to be said about it. The Templar will not be doing a thing about it, just commenting on this reality. (Codedly there is nothing really that can be done, but in a realistic Zalanthas, you'd think that the Templar could do something besides what they currently do, which is retaliate at times).

A noble says, 'Do not rest in your apartment, aide. It's too dangerous.' The more players hear this, the more it becomes a 'thing' where if you decide to RP as an aide, you'll be unable to participate in all that Private RP -- you'll just be too highly likely to be targeted by an assassin so that won't happen. (Ahem, this is something that has, and will continue to scare people away from those roles).

A commoner you share your apartment with says, 'wear your key so it can't be stolen.' That makes perfect sense, got it. (this just doesn't make sense and shouldn't be a solution to a big problem, but it apparently is.)

I have heard all these things over MULTIPLE characters I've played from MULTIPLE different players. The advice is given ICly, from respected players.

I am kind of frustrated that these 'tricks' are being passed along as legitimate RP, and the problem isn't the RPers, because they just want to help a storyline survive and to help someone achieve some growth and development for their character. To be able to survive a few IC years, at least into mid-adult years (20s, 30s, perhaps?) is realistic. But, with PvP standards as they are, how can anyone survive to adulthood and have children in any case if every apartment is a deathtrap?

So therefore, you can cringe all you want, but you are just cringing at the collective result of a problem which has been spread from player to player and affects everyone. Cringe away.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 10:25:38 AM by Harmless »
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Harmless

  • Posts: 2813
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2019, 10:32:30 AM »
oh guys, I just had a GREAT code idea. Make scan a passively repeating action that occurs when you use it. Honestly, we (or staff) should be picking apart every single "tip" I provide like I will below, until we have good agreed upon fixes for all of these things that make you and others and myself cringe.

Currently it works like this. You scan, you activate a flag on yourself that you're scanning. While scanning, if you >look, then you will have a chance at seeing a shadow. While scanning, when using any action that targets a hidden person, there's a chance that you'll be able to interact with that hidden person, i.e. with a look or a watch or a kill command.

The way it's used? REPEATEDLY SPAM A LOOK COMMAND. That's STUPID. (I pointed this out in my OP, see tip #3, which is obviously laced with sarcasm).

What is a pretty obvious solution? Change it so when you start scanning, the game will periodically have your character have a chance to detect a hidden person based on your skill vs their hide. Perhaps while >looking east or so on it still works the same, and perhaps it also checks once when you first enter a room. However, repeated attempts at looking shouldn't make a difference (whereas it presently DOES). Then, maybe to compensate for this change, let's rebalance the odds of scan ever fucking working.


Instead, it'll be like this.

Code: [Select]

>scan
You scan the area intently.

(RP goes here. 4 minutes later:)

While scanning, you have detected a short, strange shadow in the room.

>look

A bedroom [S]
This is a bedroom apartment, clearly a deathtrap. No matter what you do,
you will never detect a person hiding in here, even though there are no
furniture items and just plain walls. There is a fucking chameleon in the room
RIGHT NOW. Also, there is a SKELETON INSIDE YOU.
*A short, strange shadow is here.*
Your clueless mate is here, relying on you to keep them alive.

>kill shadow
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 10:43:25 AM by Harmless »
Useful tips: Commands |  |Storytelling:  1  2

Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2019, 11:36:47 AM »

A templar says, 'Apartments are deathtraps.'

A noble says, 'Do not rest in your apartment, aide. It's too dangerous.'

Players in sponsored roles like these should have sponsored roles restricted if they're found to be saying things like this, as it is ignoring the vNPC world in favor of focusing on the limitations of code, which shouldn't be represented in RP.

Realistic RP shouldn't be compromised due to faults in the current coded environment. Instead, characters should be played realistically, and players should repeatedly complain about the code shortcomings leading to character deaths until an acceptable code fix is implemented.

Staff DO read the forums, and while change doesn't happen quickly, I'm confident that discussions on the GDB have resulted in both coded changes in the game and policy changes. I think our current staff is quite possibly the most receptive staff that Arm has ever had, when it comes to implementing ideas generated by the playerbase.

EDIT TO ADD: I also had a character apartment PKed about a year ago. Had a key stolen right out of my hand immediately after I locked the door. I've been very vocal about coded issues with apartments and how they don't make sense realistically. That said, I don't blame the people who do this for poor RP. They are doing what they are codedly able to do in the most expedient manner they're able to do it, very likely due to RP reasons. The issue is that they shouldn't be able to so easily do what they do. But that is a fault of the code. There are many things we could do to make apartments a little more safe.

One that I have been in favor of is to make it impossible to shadow someone through their apartment door without them noticing. IRL, the way people use doors is that they close them quite literally as they pass through them, so no one would be able to follow a person into their home without it being quite obvious. This wouldn't stop someone from following you in, but it WOULD prevent them from having enough time to let you close and lock the door, pickpocket your key, and backstab you. Instead, if that was the method they used to get you alone, they'd be forced to initiate combat through normal means, or give you an opportunity to leave before locking the door.

This wouldn't prevent someone from breaking into your apartment while you're away and waiting for you, and it shouldn't. That, in my opinion, should be a valid strategy to kill someone. But that strategy takes commitment and time. Either you wait for a long time with no guarantee of when your target might show up, or you perform enough due diligence on your target to know when they're likely to be there. Either way, it isn't quite so simple and opportunistic in nature. I don't want to eliminate apartment kills as a thing that happens. But I do want it to be realistic, and I'd like to get rid of cheesy elements like shadowing into apartments.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 11:48:20 AM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Fenneko

  • Posts: 57
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2019, 02:25:05 PM »
I agree with a lot of what you're saying Heade except with filing player complaints or whatever for what those other players have said with their characters.

I don't think the right answer here is to place any blame whatsoever on the behavior or actions or RP of the players revolving around this issue.

"Blaming the players" is never the answer.

It never fixes the problem.

I do agree that code changes such as the one you suggest would help and I do hope for some of them, absolutely. I am sure it is complicated to balance this all out.

In any case, please take away the tone of blaming players for this, because that just doesn't lead to change, and it is blaming the PRODUCT of the problem as the cause of it, which it is not. This was caused by a set of factors as others have posted about here, not just "the players," so asking the players to change how they play will not lead to change.

After all, players feel justified to take lethal retaliation due to the need to "survive." After all, it is what our characters want. Our characters want to survive -- we as players aren't supposed to take that alone into account with our RP, but to outright ignore it is putting blinders to survival in a world where survival is everything.

Bogre

  • Posts: 3313
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2019, 02:56:31 PM »

Instead of compromising your RP, have a little integrity. RP a living, breathing character, and die from time to time. And if things like apartment deathtraps are a problem, address that issue. Bring it up on the forums and discuss ideas to bring that coded situation in line with the RPed reality that you're encouraged to roleplay, rather than reducing your RP to twinky, ridiculous actions that brings down the overall RP quality of the RPI.

Death SHOULD be quick and brutal. That is a reflection of reality. But roleplayers shouldn't let coded issues compromise their RP. That makes them just as bad, if not worse than the twinks who they're responding to.


I think the point here is that you can just as easily say that assassins should have a little integrity, not use only coded-instawin opportunities, fail from time to time, and not just be twinky PKers. But the code pushes people into the extremes - it's pretty dangerous for an assassin to come out and say, "Time to die. Lord Oash sends his regards." Because someone will just type <look person> <contact friend> and then that assassin PC is written off, or draw weapons, or just flee.

I think both sides here have room to ease up a bit on the coded hijinks to protect their characters.

I tripped and Fale down my stairs. Drink milk and you'll grow Uaptal. I know this guy from the state of Tenneshi. This house will go up Borsail tomorrow. I gave my book to him Nenyuk it back again. I hired this guy golfing to Kadius around for a while.

Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2019, 03:06:06 PM »
I always was a supporter of the idea that upon death, a PC becomes a ghost. It's lifespan can be debated upon. From 5 minutes, to next dawn, to until log off, to until death by ethereal predators.

You can't talk, or affect thingdls. You can just watch. This will give victims of sudden deaths closure, as players will be able to pull off the kills with realistic caution and brutality, and able to turn it into a scene that might hopefully illuminate the story behind the kill.

LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 92
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2019, 03:09:29 PM »
Add the ability to speak and emote to a backstab.

backstab Bogre (Slipping out from behind ~Bogre with a key in one hand and a knife in the other) [murmuring, "Lord Oash sends his regards, it's nothing personal."]