Author Topic: Throw Skill Feedback  (Read 1801 times)

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Throw Skill Feedback
« on: March 20, 2019, 10:48:54 AM »
I've hardly ever used this skill and now that I'm actively using it, well as actively as I can without throwing knives at everyone...

I have noticed one thing that seems odd.

Code: [Select]
help throw

Throw                                                         (Ranged Combat)

   This skill represents a talent for hurling spears, knives, and darts at
opponents. The range to which this skill is effective is dependent upon the
object, but typically is not very far.  The projectile must be held or wielded
first.

   There are some special situations where objects can be thrown at
targets such as dartboards.

Syntax:
   throw <weapon> <target>
throw <weapon> <target> <direction>
throw <weapon> <target> out
throw <weapon> <target> <wagon item>

Example:
   > throw dart dartboard

> throw spear mantis

> throw spear halfling west

> throw spear halfling out

> throw spear halfling wagon

Notes:
      Like backstab, throwing weapons is typically a good way to avoid early
detection by soldiers of city-states.

   Thrown weapons are typically retrievable.

Delay:  after

When you think about the act of throwing something, knife, snowball etc.

I don't normally think of me pitching my arm back, aiming, and letting loose and then standing there for 2-3 seconds unable to do anything else.

While I understand there needs to be a delay, so it's not someone throwing twenty knives at you in 2 seconds.  I think the delay should be before, and not after, during the aiming phase.

Because if I whip a knife and you and want to immediately book it, I don't think there should be a delay while I sit there and stare at you, unable to move.

Now maybe there is a reason for this that I haven't figured out as a throw skill noob.  But as it sits now it just seems sorta oddly designed.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:53:37 AM by Cerelum »
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Delirium

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2019, 10:50:36 AM »
Agreed. The throw delay as it currently stands is excessive and strange.
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Namino

  • Posts: 432
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2019, 11:06:48 AM »
After delay is a fundamental component of combat in Armageddon, not just throwing, but disarming, bashing, klling, moving onto or away from a target, kicking, ect. Delay management, or more appropriately, delay baiting (tricking an opponent to go into delay at an inopportune moment) is very important.

It's also horribly janky and utterly poisonous as a mechanic that encourages absolute cheeseball strategies that clash horribly with both realism and gameplay.

So yes. After delay should be changed for throw. It should be changed for everything and something more appropriate on all accounts replace it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:55:57 PM by Namino »

Barsook

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2019, 11:09:15 AM »
.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:59:43 AM by Barsook »

lostinspace

  • Posts: 684
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2019, 11:33:13 AM »
I've found that more agile characters seem to have shorter delays before/after throwing or shooting. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but if this is something that makes a stat other than strength important I'm for it.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1801
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2019, 04:29:54 PM »
Putting the delay before would just see people walking off to avoid being thrown at.

Vex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2019, 05:13:13 PM »
Throw is, for high STR pcs, a very high damage skill. I've seen dwarves OHK medium threat animals with a throwing weapon.

My concern with reducing the delay, or shifting it back, to pre-throw, is it leading into devastating combos.

Throw at aide in east room.
Aide is hit for 30-40 damage and knocked prone (for 3-5 seconds, but typically, much longer).
Draw weapons.
Run.
E.
Kill Aide.
Chop aide 5x for $$$ damage.
Aide dies, still inside of throw knock down delay.

Replace aide, with almost anyone caught unaware. They are left with almost ZERO chance of survival, and advanced+ throw is available to a LOT of classes, meaning, really, anyone with a high STR could do this.

By having a 4-8 second post-throw delay, you can still catch your victim prone, but the time it takes to draw weapons, run in, and attack, means they're standing up, and have a small window to flee when knock down wears off, between when you engage in melee, and when your melee post-kill delay expires.

I use throw, liberally, in both pvp and pve. It has a strong place in both, and for people of all walks, high and low str, without need of modification, imo.

A removal, or shift of delay from post to pre, would VASTLY escalate it's power, especially its pvp killing power, because of how it could be chained.

Even throw alone, with no post-throw delay, could be piggy-backed with follow up throws.

Imagine, you finally max slashing, and some dwarf throws a javelin at you, and you're knocked down for, say, 5 seconds. Now, he's INSTANTLY winding up another, and you're hit with another before you can stand up.

Finally! You stand up, draw your sword of neck slashing! Time to... oh, no, in the delays in standing and drawing, he's hit you a third time, and knocked you down again, and the next throw kills you.

The current delay is, imo, quite frustrating IN THE MOMENT, when you want to pepper a target you've caught with their pants down, or whatever, but it is as it is, to prevent some... rage quit inducing scenarios, wherein anyone can be murdered, safely and without risk, by virtue if high strength and a readily available skill, that is quite easy to max out, without a lot of time investment.

It sound marvelous, yes, when you imagine YOURSELF doing such a feat, but it would be HORRID and completely rage inducing, were it to happen TO you.

The delay is appropriate and necessary, imo, until such a time as the skill is reworked from the ground upward, with lower or different delays in mind.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 06:48:35 PM »
I would ask that we not get too deeply into the mechanics and such.

I donít want to have this topic shut down for too much ic information.

I just simply thought the delay was in the wrong spot and for realism thought it should be before while aiming and not the act of the throw.

Some of what youíve pointed out seems like a legit concern, but then I wonder if realism trumps possible tactics?

I just wanna have a discussion about it, not to know mechanically how many dice are rolled and what a perfect 20 does lol.
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Synthesis

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 06:58:22 PM »
Archery is arguably just as dangerous as throw, and it has a pre-delay with no post-delay.  *shrug*
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Cerelum

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 07:00:46 PM »
Archery is arguably just as dangerous as throw, and it has a pre-delay with no post-delay.  *shrug*

I would say more dangerous by far with pull quiver and the pre delay plus the ability to fire from far away.

Though one could argue that the balance is the fact that arrows break and thrown items are retrievable.
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Eyeball

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2019, 07:06:16 PM »
Agreed. The throw delay as it currently stands is excessive and strange.

The delay prevents people from throwing weapons like a machine gun. If there was no delay (or only a small one), you can be sure someone would write a macro and spam-throw people to near-instant death.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 07:15:24 PM by Eyeball »

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 07:08:07 PM »
The delay prevents people from throwing weapons like a machine gun. If there was no delay, you can be sure someone would write a macro and spam-throw people to near-instant death.

What would changing the delay to before change?

If Iím delayed 3 seconds after a throw or three seconds before, itís still three seconds.
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Namino

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 07:09:11 PM »
Both archery and throw have pre and post delays, though in the case of archery it is very small in both regards. Crossbows, IIRC, are the only thing that doesn't have post delays.

Medena

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2019, 07:28:38 PM »
The delay prevents people from throwing weapons like a machine gun. If there was no delay, you can be sure someone would write a macro and spam-throw people to near-instant death.

What would changing the delay to before change?

If Iím delayed 3 seconds after a throw or three seconds before, itís still three seconds.

A person could possibly want to throw a knife at a target in the same room, say one that has a deadly or crippling poison on it.  If there was a three second delay before the throw, the quarry would be long gone.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10318
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 07:53:24 PM »
Both archery and throw have pre and post delays, though in the case of archery it is very small in both regards. Crossbows, IIRC, are the only thing that doesn't have post delays.
Yes, but it takes 30 RL seconds to load a crossbow.

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Namino

  • Posts: 432
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2019, 07:59:44 PM »
Both archery and throw have pre and post delays, though in the case of archery it is very small in both regards. Crossbows, IIRC, are the only thing that doesn't have post delays.
Yes, but it takes 30 RL seconds to load a crossbow.

Hence the advantage it provides in no after delay. Load fifty crossbows. Stuff them all in a sack. Shoot, move, swap, shoot, move, swap, shoot, move, swap. Get banned.

Nao

  • Posts: 1988
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2019, 08:25:54 PM »
There is another thing that's odd with throw.

You cannot use it to hit hidden targets anymore. Until recentely, you could 'watch' a hidden shadow, and then you were able to target it with throw like any other target that you could see.

This stopped working. Even if you are watching a target, every single time you throw something at it? You get a message about how there is nobody like that in that direction. Even if you are watching that shadow, and look shows it every single time you type 'look', the code won't let you throw anything at it.
I'm not sure when that changed, but it was roughly a year ago or less.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2019, 09:08:01 PM »
There is another thing that's odd with throw.

You cannot use it to hit hidden targets anymore. Until recentely, you could 'watch' a hidden shadow, and then you were able to target it with throw like any other target that you could see.

This stopped working. Even if you are watching a target, every single time you throw something at it? You get a message about how there is nobody like that in that direction. Even if you are watching that shadow, and look shows it every single time you type 'look', the code won't let you throw anything at it.
I'm not sure when that changed, but it was roughly a year ago or less.

That sounds like a bug, might want to request tool that and they might be able to fix it.
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mansa

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2019, 10:26:03 PM »
There is another thing that's odd with throw.

You cannot use it to hit hidden targets anymore. Until recentely, you could 'watch' a hidden shadow, and then you were able to target it with throw like any other target that you could see.

This stopped working. Even if you are watching a target, every single time you throw something at it? You get a message about how there is nobody like that in that direction. Even if you are watching that shadow, and look shows it every single time you type 'look', the code won't let you throw anything at it.
I'm not sure when that changed, but it was roughly a year ago or less.

It seems like the 'look' check for hidden people happens multiple times instead of just once.
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Vex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2019, 03:26:50 PM »
What would changing the delay to before change?

If Iím delayed 3 seconds after a throw or three seconds before, itís still three seconds.

If you're hit with a thrown weapon, and knocked down, you are locked out of commands for a not inconsiderable period of time. If the delay is BEFORE throwing, the thrower can IMMEDIATELY follow up by running in, weapons drawn, and slaughter your unarmed, command locked pc, in seconds, leaving you ZERO recourse but to bend over, and take it. By having the delay AFTER throw, even if you're knocked down when hit by it, the command lockouts for both thrower and throw victim line up as such, that the thrower enjoys a second or two of advantage before the throw victim can enter commands again. It works out such as the knock down lockdown wears off about a second or two AFTER the throwers lockdown has worn off, meaning the thrower has a LIMITED opportunity to seize the advantage, rather than several seconds unabashed beat down time, which will, in most scenarios, lead to the victim dying without an opportunity to do anything, due to how absurdly broken the unarmed vs armed code behaves.

Ignore these archery arguments. It does NOT feature a mobility or command lockout function, and does not limit your ability to respond to being shot, in ANY way, barring certain poisons. It is a completely, totally different animal, than throw.

Having the delay POST throw works, because it balances advantages with something approaching gameplay fairness for PLAYERS.

Having someone knock you down for 40 hit damage, and lock you out of commands for 4-8 seconds minimum, with zero post delay, means they're going to draw and rush in to melee you to death, whilst you have NO MEANS OF RESPONDING OR DEFENDING AGAINST IT. THAT is why a the post delay is necessary.

For references, you can raise throw to master on rats in Allanak, with an 11 'sid throwing dagger. You can use that 11 'sid dagger, to then throw at, knock down, and poison a victim, whilst evading crimcode responses.

Throw is ADEQUATELY powerful, and imo, superior to backstab and sap, except it's available to MANY more classes.
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Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2019, 04:48:25 PM »
Agreed. The throw delay as it currently stands is excessive and strange.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2019, 08:00:01 PM »
I have noticed the knock down of throwing, itís weird how it doesnít tell you they got knocked down.

So you have to throw thing rat n

Look north and see the rat bleeding heavily sitting down.

Would be nice if there was a message to let you know they fell over.
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Medena

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2019, 08:16:52 PM »
The watch command is your friend.
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Eyeball

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 01:37:25 AM »
The watch command is your friend.

If the message for the throw tells you that it hit, there's no reason it shouldn't tell you that you knocked the target down too.

Harmless

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2019, 09:12:31 AM »
No changes.

It is an important balance feature as it stands.

In respect to MM's request that we not overly explain code mechanics I will say only that and skip an in depth discussion for why, but Vox's first post says it all
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2019, 12:34:05 PM »
After thinking about it and all the nuances of it now I see that itís a design feature and not a realism thing.

Good explainations all around, hopefully this hasnít been too revealing code wise.

Now my only feedback is that you should see the knock down message in the throw hit message.

But I also guess thatís an opportunity to train watch maybe?

If itís outside of magick and rangers Iím a fuckin noob.
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X-D

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2019, 07:37:00 PM »
While I think you should see the throw knockdown message...if you really pay attention while at high skill, you will likely figure out there is no real need to be told either.
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Namino

  • Posts: 432
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2019, 07:55:45 PM »
While I think you should see the throw knockdown message...if you really pay attention while at high skill, you will likely figure out there is no real need to be told either.

^

You're in obligate delay for ~6 seconds after you throw where one of the few things you can still do is look in the direction you threw. May as well spend the down time checking on the target. :d

Dresan

  • Posts: 1302
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2019, 11:48:18 AM »
I think the delay should be only before....

However:
  • The moment you begin to throw, the act of aiming a throwing weapon at a person should get you crim flagged. 
  • The delay should not not break hide, only the act of throwing would break hide and would get you crim flagged.


A bit more advantage when used with stealth, slightly less so when used without. With the changes to stealth, not everyone has great stealth without prioritizing agility over strength.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2792
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2019, 12:07:18 PM »
I think the delay should be only before....

However:
  • The moment you begin to throw, the act of aiming a throwing weapon at a person should get you crim flagged. 
  • The delay should not not break hide, only the act of throwing would break hide and would get you crim flagged.


A bit more advantage when used with stealth, slightly less so when used without. With the changes to stealth, not everyone has great stealth without prioritizing agility over strength.
Me likey.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2019, 02:46:20 PM »
I think the delay should be only before....

However:
  • The moment you begin to throw, the act of aiming a throwing weapon at a person should get you crim flagged. 
  • The delay should not not break hide, only the act of throwing would break hide and would get you crim flagged.


A bit more advantage when used with stealth, slightly less so when used without. With the changes to stealth, not everyone has great stealth without prioritizing agility over strength.

I'm not a fan, it's already STUPID easy to get crim flagged.
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Dresan

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2019, 03:19:06 PM »
Well you want to give people who aren't combat heavy a chance too assuming they've taken the precaution of staying alert and are in a 'relatively' safe and busy law protected environment.

Basically my proposal makes throw slightly more useful as a starting tactic for those invested in agility/stealth(less damage) and slightly less useful to the PCs that have not invested as much in those supporting skills/stats within law protect areas.   

« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 03:22:14 PM by Dresan »
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Inks

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2019, 09:45:00 AM »
I have used throw a lot, in fact it is my favorite skill. If you reduced delay so you can your ninja star flurry it would be obscenely powerful. As things stand it is a good skill.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2019, 08:41:22 AM »
The watch command is your friend.

I've used the watch command after seeing this message and literally got no message about the critter falling down.

would be like

Watch north
throw knife thing n
All I get is two messages saying my knife hit the thing up north.

Look N
Thing is sitting here bleeding heavily.

So I definitely think the fall down message needs to show in the throw hit message.
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Medena

  • Posts: 1271
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2019, 01:05:36 PM »
The watch command is your friend.

I've used the watch command after seeing this message and literally got no message about the critter falling down.

would be like

Watch north
throw knife thing n
All I get is two messages saying my knife hit the thing up north.

Look N
Thing is sitting here bleeding heavily.

So I definitely think the fall down message needs to show in the throw hit message.

That's weird.  I always see something like this:

Code: [Select]
>watch e
You begin watching the east exit.

 >throw knife unicorn e
You take aim at your target...

You hurl a raptor-tooth throwing knife east.
To the east: a raptor-tooth throwing knife flies in from the west and strikes a unicorn's body.
You see a raptor-tooth throwing knife strike a unicorn's body.
To the east: a unicorn stumbles to the ground.

Sorry if I steered you wrong.
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Seeker

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2019, 02:10:43 PM »

Code: [Select]
>watch e
You begin watching the east exit.

 >throw knife unicorn e
You take aim at your target...

You hurl a raptor-tooth throwing knife east.
To the east: a raptor-tooth throwing knife flies in from the west and strikes a [b]unicorn's[/b] body.
You see a raptor-tooth throwing knife strike a [b]unicorn's[/b] body.
To the east: a [b]unicorn[/b]stumbles to the ground.


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Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2019, 08:57:02 AM »
Can confirm:

Quote
You take aim at your target...

You hurl a balanced, crown-pommeled knife north.
To the north: a balanced, crown-pommeled knife flies in from the south and strikes the hobbled, grey-skinned man's leg.
You see a balanced, crown-pommeled knife strike the hobbled, grey-skinned man's leg.
To the north: the hobbled, grey-skinned man stumbles to the ground.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2019, 09:15:08 AM »
Can confirm:

Quote
You take aim at your target...

You hurl a balanced, crown-pommeled knife north.
To the north: a balanced, crown-pommeled knife flies in from the south and strikes the hobbled, grey-skinned man's leg.
You see a balanced, crown-pommeled knife strike the hobbled, grey-skinned man's leg.
To the north: the hobbled, grey-skinned man stumbles to the ground.

Could be my watch skill just sucks and I missed it then.
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Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2019, 10:44:38 AM »
Can confirm:

Quote
You take aim at your target...

You hurl a balanced, crown-pommeled knife north.
To the north: a balanced, crown-pommeled knife flies in from the south and strikes the hobbled, grey-skinned man's leg.
You see a balanced, crown-pommeled knife strike the hobbled, grey-skinned man's leg.
To the north: the hobbled, grey-skinned man stumbles to the ground.

Could be my watch skill just sucks and I missed it then.

I didn't think of that.  I guess that's possible!
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perfecto

  • Posts: 868
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2019, 07:21:17 PM »
One thing I would like to see for the throw command is for it to be accessed during hand to hand combat.  (in the current state it will not let you throw the spear your wielding at the target you're fighting in the same room at the same time)   Yes it would generally leave you defenseless in doing so, but I think it could be a wonderful "Hail Mary" for someone with a good throw skill in the dire moments we've all been through.  I think the same delay that's in game now should hold true, you stop, take aim, and if you get hit before you get your throw off it should interrupt the throw.  Let's face it, we've all seen a movie or 50 where some dude is fighting for his life and grabs something handy at the last second and throws it into his assailants skull for the win! 
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Veselka

  • Posts: 963
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2019, 07:35:16 PM »
Or to throw your weapon at another assailant during an attack. Say, mass combat, and you toss your spear at someone you aren't fighting, then draw a new weapon.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1801
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2019, 04:46:14 AM »
You wouldn't believe the number of times I have wanted to be able to throw a warhammer at a guy midfite no joke.

Riev

  • Posts: 5429
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2019, 10:57:58 AM »
I find myself on board with the ability to throw in-combat.
Let it provoke an Attack of Opporunity/free hit.

I would love to do a hail mary "throw the spear at their chest" maneuver, only to miss, lag me out, and be unable to pick up my weapon.

Or as Veselka said... see your friend fighting that gith, so you throw your spear at the gith to knock it down, and draw your scimitar to finish off the one you're fighting.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2792
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2019, 02:15:47 PM »
Throw should give an OA in combat if it misses, if you hit regularly there should be a /slight chance/ of an OA but it should be harder to do from an IC standpoint as being hit with a fucking spear is kinda shitty, however it shouldn't slow combat down much.

Knocking them down shouldn't provoke an OA at all.

Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2019, 02:45:05 PM »
One thing I would like to see for the throw command is for it to be accessed during hand to hand combat.  (in the current state it will not let you throw the spear your wielding at the target you're fighting in the same room at the same time)   Yes it would generally leave you defenseless in doing so, but I think it could be a wonderful "Hail Mary" for someone with a good throw skill in the dire moments we've all been through.  I think the same delay that's in game now should hold true, you stop, take aim, and if you get hit before you get your throw off it should interrupt the throw.  Let's face it, we've all seen a movie or 50 where some dude is fighting for his life and grabs something handy at the last second and throws it into his assailants skull for the win!


PLEASE
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Vex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2019, 03:58:05 PM »
Would be fine with in combat throw, if throwing in combat would have NO chance, of knocking a target down.

Throw is really, quite easy to raise, does a LOT of damage with high str (which is, what most people who fight in melee tend to have), and if it could knock down as well, it would REALLY steal the show, from skills like bash. When I have to make the decision, between using my shield for added defense and knock down, or my two hand'er for decisive damage and superior disarms, or dual wield for disarm protection or poison applications, it has a meaningful impact on combat flow.

If I can, just, throw my battleaxe into your face, knock you down, pull out another one directly into etwo, or draw another from my belt whilst dual wielding, there is no trade off. Opportunity attacks mean nothing, to a skilled heavy combat. The knock down lockout from throw is technically shorter than the post throw delay, but, with human error and latency considered, you could, 50/50, immediately pick up your throw weapon, before your opponent can stand up, to enjoy some opportunity attacks. That is excessive. Combat heavies, all get the best master throw, too, so... excessive.

If combat throw did NOT include knockdown, and came with a considerable unbalance effect, such as reducing your dodge chance to 0% for a couple combat rounds, it'd be viable, and a very neat flavor mechanic.
"Mortals do drown so."

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2792
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2019, 04:31:40 PM »
I'd be fine with a 'bash' in combat throw just not letting the enemy get to hit you for the normal throw delay, giving you time to draw a weapon but not time to hit them while they are more vulnerable.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2019, 04:37:53 PM »
I have noticed that things stop dodging my knives and shit around journeyman.
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Vex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2019, 04:49:07 PM »
I have noticed that things stop dodging my knives and shit around journeyman.

If you have high agility, you need faster, more agile targets.

The rub of high stats, is that you plateau earlier, and require stiffer challenges, to meet your skill up requirements. Everyone wants to be Heracles, but it comes at a cost, yes.
"Mortals do drown so."

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2019, 03:09:06 PM »
Another thing that should be looked at in Throw code.

If you try and throw at someone and they move, you still get the throw delay when it says, You can't see that person there or whatever it says.  Shouldn't give you throw delay unless you actually throw.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2792
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2019, 09:13:10 PM »
I'd even like a-

Throw knife elf north

>You ready your sweet throw

-----
"Your target has moved out of range!" no delay, instant feedback.

"Your target has disappeared!" No delay, if they hide/go invis.

Brokkr

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2019, 09:30:21 PM »
What disadvantage would you replace it with, given the power of the skill?

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2019, 09:42:52 PM »
What disadvantage would you replace it with, given the power of the skill?

My original complaint of delay after versus before I understand now why it's that way, to stop throwing and instantly running in to murder while they are stuck in sitting down delay.

But the complaint about throw, target moves, hides whatever, "You can't see them there" and you're still stuck in throw delay is sorta silly.  I didn't throw anything, why am I delayed?

Did the act of thinking of throwing cause my poor zalanthan mind to not be able to snap outta it for however many seconds? Heh.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2792
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2019, 09:45:58 PM »
What disadvantage would you replace it with, given the power of the skill?

Well if they hide you have to scan and by the time god lets you actually throw something at them they will be gone, or you flat out can't. (I've never been able to get throw to work on hidden things, but maybe others have)

If people are moving/running and you are trying to throw, they probably know you are there. If they don't, you're a sneaky enough boi that I don't care. If they do know you are there, they'll have enough time inbetween room movements and the fact it takes a small bit to actually throw to get away.

Brokkr

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2019, 11:51:00 AM »
Maybe I should be more explicit.  I was expecting a response of "None, Brokkr, because [insert very, very, very specific reason here]."
 Instead, you proved you really don't know what you think you do.

There is a front end DELAY for throw.  There is no wait state.  Started throwing but your target moved and you want to go north?  Type north.  Concentration breaks and you go north.

Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2019, 12:01:32 PM »
Maybe I should be more explicit.  I was expecting a response of "None, Brokkr, because [insert very, very, very specific reason here]."
 Instead, you proved you really don't know what you think you do.

There is a front end DELAY for throw.  There is no wait state.  Started throwing but your target moved and you want to go north?  Type north.  Concentration breaks and you go north.

If you don't break concentration, and let it run until it returns that your target isn't there, is there not a post-throw delay that still kicks in, stopping you from moving?

I don't remember one way or the other, honestly.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2019, 12:09:48 PM »
Maybe I should be more explicit.  I was expecting a response of "None, Brokkr, because [insert very, very, very specific reason here]."
 Instead, you proved you really don't know what you think you do.

There is a front end DELAY for throw.  There is no wait state.  Started throwing but your target moved and you want to go north?  Type north.  Concentration breaks and you go north.

Im not sure if this was at me or someone else.

But this is what Iíve found to be true, whether a bug or intended feature is the question.

I hardly ever watch direction, probably should but I donít.

So how throw looks for me is this,

L E
Near
A thing is here.

Think Fuck that thing, heís gonna die!

Get knife assassin.bag
EP knife
Throw knife thing E

Aiming message

Thing moved/not there anymore message.

Stuck in delay as if I threw a knife despite not throwing the knife. (This is the part I think is broken)

« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 12:12:05 PM by Cerelum »
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Namino

  • Posts: 432
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2019, 12:21:52 PM »
Maybe I should be more explicit.  I was expecting a response of "None, Brokkr, because [insert very, very, very specific reason here]."
 Instead, you proved you really don't know what you think you do.

There is a front end DELAY for throw.  There is no wait state.  Started throwing but your target moved and you want to go north?  Type north.  Concentration breaks and you go north.

If you don't break concentration, and let it run until it returns that your target isn't there, is there not a post-throw delay that still kicks in, stopping you from moving?

I don't remember one way or the other, honestly.

There is. This is actually the anti kiting archer strat, because if you move on top of them before they can cancel their shoot command, their shoot will fail because you're no longer in the direction they fired but they'll still get a post delay as if they fired, giving you time to wallop them before they kite again.

Same for throw.

However,  Brokkr is correct in if you move before the throw fails, you get no delay. But the post delay doesn't discriminate between a throw and an invalid target.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2792
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2019, 12:59:32 PM »
Brokkr back at it again with the "Ur wrong" and no clarification that other players had to give.

What Namino said is what I was thinking. As unless you are watching a player, or a direction I suppose, (Or spamming the shit out of look) You'll type throw and expect them to be sticking around.
Or maybe I only expect that.

Namino

  • Posts: 432
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2019, 01:10:22 PM »
The real issue is that DIKU, if I recall, runs on 'ticks', so commands tend to resolve at the end of a tick, so there isn't a set time for the pre-delay on throw or archery. If you begin your shoot command immediately before a tick resolves, you'll get next to no pre-delay, but if you start your shoot right after a tick resolved, then you'll sit in delay for significantly longer. This means you sort of need to 'feel out' when the tick is coming since it isn't static and make your move onto them using the goddamn force to know when you'll time it so they can't react in time to cancel the shot.

Code: [Select]
A Sheer Walled Canyon
 [E, S]
    A constant rustle comes from the vines growing all around, cascading
thickly down the walls of the canyon in a tumultous rippling mass of red-
thorned stems and gray-green, heart-shaped leaves.  The visible rock is
striated sandstone, streaked with deeply contrasting layers of rust, amber
and tawny gold.  But the soft whispering of the vines is nearly drowned out
by the echoing howl of the wind, amplified and shaped by crevices and nooks
in the rock face, resounding in an anguished wail, an ululation which sounds
like the hunting call of some large animal. The ground underfoot is covered
with a layer of pieces of flat, sharp-edged shale, disturbed here and there
by tufts of stubborn petch and gesra grass.
Looming high overheard to the eastern edge of the canyon, a towering volcanic
cliff juts up from the surface of ground.
An agate-headed arrow, fletched in grey and black, lies here.

105/120hp 137/218mv 105/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel

To the east: the short figure in a dusty hooded, pitch-dark greatcloak steadies herself and takes
aim with a dusty agafari elvish longbow.

105/120hp 137/218mv 105/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel
e
A whip-tailed turaal attempts to flee.

A whip-tailed turaal runs south.
Base of a Jagged Volcanic Cliff [N, S, W]
   At the base of a mighty black cliff, sharp jagged shards of sand fused
into rough obsidian colored pinnacles rise into the sky.  Rivulets of sand
and ash flow from further up the cliff, trickling through the cracks and
crevices in the cliff wall.  As the ground approaches the cliff the sand has
hardened and fused.  Some of the hardened glass and darkened sand underfoot
is smooth and rippled, while in other areas it rises into blades and spikes
of various sizes.
A few black-fletched arrows are here.
The short figure in a dusty hooded, pitch-dark greatcloak is standing here.
105/120hp 136/218mv 105/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel
bash short
You stop watching the east exit.
You slam into the short figure in a dusty hooded, pitch-dark greatcloak and knock her on her back.
#gottem

Riev

  • Posts: 5429
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2019, 01:12:07 PM »
Base issue: When throw completes, without a valid target, the delay is still applied.
Requested fix: When throw code is initiated and target does not exist, do not apply the delay to the PC.
Possible "intended" fix: When throw is initiated and target does not exist, omit target and continue throwing in direction.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Namino

  • Posts: 432
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2019, 01:14:41 PM »
Base issue: When throw completes, without a valid target, the delay is still applied.
Requested fix: When throw code is initiated and target does not exist, do not apply the delay to the PC.
Possible "intended" fix: When throw is initiated and target does not exist, omit target and continue throwing in direction.

This fix is not very good in my opinion. Kite-archery is already supremely strong and the counterplay of catching their delay when you move laterally or on top of them right as they fire  requires very tight and somewhat random timing from the non-archer, and then unless you lock them down they can spam flee which is effective free in Armageddon and begin dropping 25hp arrows onto your ass again with impunity.

Not the buff we need.

Riev

  • Posts: 5429
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2019, 01:21:07 PM »
I'm just summing up the requests being made.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2019, 01:26:12 PM »
We are talking about throw which requires you to be one room away, not archery where you can be two or three rooms away.

Itís silly to have the delay when you donít throw it.
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Namino

  • Posts: 432
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2019, 01:30:25 PM »
I'm just summing up the requests being made.

I see, my mistake. The intended fix might actually work though, because it has the additional penalty on the kiter of costing them an arrow or a thrown weapon, whereas by timing your move onto them now and them getting just the delay, it doesn't cost them ammo.