Author Topic: Throw Skill Feedback  (Read 2347 times)

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Throw Skill Feedback
« on: March 20, 2019, 10:48:54 AM »
I've hardly ever used this skill and now that I'm actively using it, well as actively as I can without throwing knives at everyone...

I have noticed one thing that seems odd.

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help throw

Throw                                                         (Ranged Combat)

   This skill represents a talent for hurling spears, knives, and darts at
opponents. The range to which this skill is effective is dependent upon the
object, but typically is not very far.  The projectile must be held or wielded
first.

   There are some special situations where objects can be thrown at
targets such as dartboards.

Syntax:
   throw <weapon> <target>
throw <weapon> <target> <direction>
throw <weapon> <target> out
throw <weapon> <target> <wagon item>

Example:
   > throw dart dartboard

> throw spear mantis

> throw spear halfling west

> throw spear halfling out

> throw spear halfling wagon

Notes:
      Like backstab, throwing weapons is typically a good way to avoid early
detection by soldiers of city-states.

   Thrown weapons are typically retrievable.

Delay:  after

When you think about the act of throwing something, knife, snowball etc.

I don't normally think of me pitching my arm back, aiming, and letting loose and then standing there for 2-3 seconds unable to do anything else.

While I understand there needs to be a delay, so it's not someone throwing twenty knives at you in 2 seconds.  I think the delay should be before, and not after, during the aiming phase.

Because if I whip a knife and you and want to immediately book it, I don't think there should be a delay while I sit there and stare at you, unable to move.

Now maybe there is a reason for this that I haven't figured out as a throw skill noob.  But as it sits now it just seems sorta oddly designed.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:53:37 AM by Cerelum »
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Delirium

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2019, 10:50:36 AM »
Agreed. The throw delay as it currently stands is excessive and strange.
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Namino

  • Posts: 461
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2019, 11:06:48 AM »
After delay is a fundamental component of combat in Armageddon, not just throwing, but disarming, bashing, klling, moving onto or away from a target, kicking, ect. Delay management, or more appropriately, delay baiting (tricking an opponent to go into delay at an inopportune moment) is very important.

It's also horribly janky and utterly poisonous as a mechanic that encourages absolute cheeseball strategies that clash horribly with both realism and gameplay.

So yes. After delay should be changed for throw. It should be changed for everything and something more appropriate on all accounts replace it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:55:57 PM by Namino »

Barsook

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2019, 11:09:15 AM »
.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:59:43 AM by Barsook »

lostinspace

  • Posts: 710
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2019, 11:33:13 AM »
I've found that more agile characters seem to have shorter delays before/after throwing or shooting. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but if this is something that makes a stat other than strength important I'm for it.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2019, 04:29:54 PM »
Putting the delay before would just see people walking off to avoid being thrown at.

Vex

  • Posts: 227
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2019, 05:13:13 PM »
Throw is, for high STR pcs, a very high damage skill. I've seen dwarves OHK medium threat animals with a throwing weapon.

My concern with reducing the delay, or shifting it back, to pre-throw, is it leading into devastating combos.

Throw at aide in east room.
Aide is hit for 30-40 damage and knocked prone (for 3-5 seconds, but typically, much longer).
Draw weapons.
Run.
E.
Kill Aide.
Chop aide 5x for $$$ damage.
Aide dies, still inside of throw knock down delay.

Replace aide, with almost anyone caught unaware. They are left with almost ZERO chance of survival, and advanced+ throw is available to a LOT of classes, meaning, really, anyone with a high STR could do this.

By having a 4-8 second post-throw delay, you can still catch your victim prone, but the time it takes to draw weapons, run in, and attack, means they're standing up, and have a small window to flee when knock down wears off, between when you engage in melee, and when your melee post-kill delay expires.

I use throw, liberally, in both pvp and pve. It has a strong place in both, and for people of all walks, high and low str, without need of modification, imo.

A removal, or shift of delay from post to pre, would VASTLY escalate it's power, especially its pvp killing power, because of how it could be chained.

Even throw alone, with no post-throw delay, could be piggy-backed with follow up throws.

Imagine, you finally max slashing, and some dwarf throws a javelin at you, and you're knocked down for, say, 5 seconds. Now, he's INSTANTLY winding up another, and you're hit with another before you can stand up.

Finally! You stand up, draw your sword of neck slashing! Time to... oh, no, in the delays in standing and drawing, he's hit you a third time, and knocked you down again, and the next throw kills you.

The current delay is, imo, quite frustrating IN THE MOMENT, when you want to pepper a target you've caught with their pants down, or whatever, but it is as it is, to prevent some... rage quit inducing scenarios, wherein anyone can be murdered, safely and without risk, by virtue if high strength and a readily available skill, that is quite easy to max out, without a lot of time investment.

It sound marvelous, yes, when you imagine YOURSELF doing such a feat, but it would be HORRID and completely rage inducing, were it to happen TO you.

The delay is appropriate and necessary, imo, until such a time as the skill is reworked from the ground upward, with lower or different delays in mind.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 06:48:35 PM »
I would ask that we not get too deeply into the mechanics and such.

I donít want to have this topic shut down for too much ic information.

I just simply thought the delay was in the wrong spot and for realism thought it should be before while aiming and not the act of the throw.

Some of what youíve pointed out seems like a legit concern, but then I wonder if realism trumps possible tactics?

I just wanna have a discussion about it, not to know mechanically how many dice are rolled and what a perfect 20 does lol.
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Synthesis

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 06:58:22 PM »
Archery is arguably just as dangerous as throw, and it has a pre-delay with no post-delay.  *shrug*
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 07:00:46 PM »
Archery is arguably just as dangerous as throw, and it has a pre-delay with no post-delay.  *shrug*

I would say more dangerous by far with pull quiver and the pre delay plus the ability to fire from far away.

Though one could argue that the balance is the fact that arrows break and thrown items are retrievable.
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Eyeball

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Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2019, 07:06:16 PM »
Agreed. The throw delay as it currently stands is excessive and strange.

The delay prevents people from throwing weapons like a machine gun. If there was no delay (or only a small one), you can be sure someone would write a macro and spam-throw people to near-instant death.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 07:15:24 PM by Eyeball »

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 07:08:07 PM »
The delay prevents people from throwing weapons like a machine gun. If there was no delay, you can be sure someone would write a macro and spam-throw people to near-instant death.

What would changing the delay to before change?

If Iím delayed 3 seconds after a throw or three seconds before, itís still three seconds.
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Namino

  • Posts: 461
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 07:09:11 PM »
Both archery and throw have pre and post delays, though in the case of archery it is very small in both regards. Crossbows, IIRC, are the only thing that doesn't have post delays.

Medena

  • Posts: 1288
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2019, 07:28:38 PM »
The delay prevents people from throwing weapons like a machine gun. If there was no delay, you can be sure someone would write a macro and spam-throw people to near-instant death.

What would changing the delay to before change?

If Iím delayed 3 seconds after a throw or three seconds before, itís still three seconds.

A person could possibly want to throw a knife at a target in the same room, say one that has a deadly or crippling poison on it.  If there was a three second delay before the throw, the quarry would be long gone.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10436
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 07:53:24 PM »
Both archery and throw have pre and post delays, though in the case of archery it is very small in both regards. Crossbows, IIRC, are the only thing that doesn't have post delays.
Yes, but it takes 30 RL seconds to load a crossbow.
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Namino

  • Posts: 461
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2019, 07:59:44 PM »
Both archery and throw have pre and post delays, though in the case of archery it is very small in both regards. Crossbows, IIRC, are the only thing that doesn't have post delays.
Yes, but it takes 30 RL seconds to load a crossbow.

Hence the advantage it provides in no after delay. Load fifty crossbows. Stuff them all in a sack. Shoot, move, swap, shoot, move, swap, shoot, move, swap. Get banned.

Nao

  • Posts: 1997
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2019, 08:25:54 PM »
There is another thing that's odd with throw.

You cannot use it to hit hidden targets anymore. Until recentely, you could 'watch' a hidden shadow, and then you were able to target it with throw like any other target that you could see.

This stopped working. Even if you are watching a target, every single time you throw something at it? You get a message about how there is nobody like that in that direction. Even if you are watching that shadow, and look shows it every single time you type 'look', the code won't let you throw anything at it.
I'm not sure when that changed, but it was roughly a year ago or less.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2019, 09:08:01 PM »
There is another thing that's odd with throw.

You cannot use it to hit hidden targets anymore. Until recentely, you could 'watch' a hidden shadow, and then you were able to target it with throw like any other target that you could see.

This stopped working. Even if you are watching a target, every single time you throw something at it? You get a message about how there is nobody like that in that direction. Even if you are watching that shadow, and look shows it every single time you type 'look', the code won't let you throw anything at it.
I'm not sure when that changed, but it was roughly a year ago or less.

That sounds like a bug, might want to request tool that and they might be able to fix it.
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mansa

  • Posts: 9716
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2019, 10:26:03 PM »
There is another thing that's odd with throw.

You cannot use it to hit hidden targets anymore. Until recentely, you could 'watch' a hidden shadow, and then you were able to target it with throw like any other target that you could see.

This stopped working. Even if you are watching a target, every single time you throw something at it? You get a message about how there is nobody like that in that direction. Even if you are watching that shadow, and look shows it every single time you type 'look', the code won't let you throw anything at it.
I'm not sure when that changed, but it was roughly a year ago or less.

It seems like the 'look' check for hidden people happens multiple times instead of just once.
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Vex

  • Posts: 227
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2019, 03:26:50 PM »
What would changing the delay to before change?

If Iím delayed 3 seconds after a throw or three seconds before, itís still three seconds.

If you're hit with a thrown weapon, and knocked down, you are locked out of commands for a not inconsiderable period of time. If the delay is BEFORE throwing, the thrower can IMMEDIATELY follow up by running in, weapons drawn, and slaughter your unarmed, command locked pc, in seconds, leaving you ZERO recourse but to bend over, and take it. By having the delay AFTER throw, even if you're knocked down when hit by it, the command lockouts for both thrower and throw victim line up as such, that the thrower enjoys a second or two of advantage before the throw victim can enter commands again. It works out such as the knock down lockdown wears off about a second or two AFTER the throwers lockdown has worn off, meaning the thrower has a LIMITED opportunity to seize the advantage, rather than several seconds unabashed beat down time, which will, in most scenarios, lead to the victim dying without an opportunity to do anything, due to how absurdly broken the unarmed vs armed code behaves.

Ignore these archery arguments. It does NOT feature a mobility or command lockout function, and does not limit your ability to respond to being shot, in ANY way, barring certain poisons. It is a completely, totally different animal, than throw.

Having the delay POST throw works, because it balances advantages with something approaching gameplay fairness for PLAYERS.

Having someone knock you down for 40 hit damage, and lock you out of commands for 4-8 seconds minimum, with zero post delay, means they're going to draw and rush in to melee you to death, whilst you have NO MEANS OF RESPONDING OR DEFENDING AGAINST IT. THAT is why a the post delay is necessary.

For references, you can raise throw to master on rats in Allanak, with an 11 'sid throwing dagger. You can use that 11 'sid dagger, to then throw at, knock down, and poison a victim, whilst evading crimcode responses.

Throw is ADEQUATELY powerful, and imo, superior to backstab and sap, except it's available to MANY more classes.
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Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2019, 04:48:25 PM »
Agreed. The throw delay as it currently stands is excessive and strange.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2019, 08:00:01 PM »
I have noticed the knock down of throwing, itís weird how it doesnít tell you they got knocked down.

So you have to throw thing rat n

Look north and see the rat bleeding heavily sitting down.

Would be nice if there was a message to let you know they fell over.
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Medena

  • Posts: 1288
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2019, 08:16:52 PM »
The watch command is your friend.
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Eyeball

  • Posts: 1101
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 01:37:25 AM »
The watch command is your friend.

If the message for the throw tells you that it hit, there's no reason it shouldn't tell you that you knocked the target down too.

Harmless

  • Posts: 2797
Re: Throw Skill Feedback
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2019, 09:12:31 AM »
No changes.

It is an important balance feature as it stands.

In respect to MM's request that we not overly explain code mechanics I will say only that and skip an in depth discussion for why, but Vox's first post says it all
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