Author Topic: Mdesc-hiding masks  (Read 2484 times)

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 464
Mdesc-hiding masks
« on: February 11, 2019, 12:21:21 AM »
...because this discussion was beginning to get derailed!

I had originally suggested a way to re-implement masks, because I actually liked the idea, in general. I just hated how it worked, at the time.

Disclaimer: One of my very first characters, and one of my favorites, was murdered by someone (or maybe two people) wearing one of those famous mdesc-obscuring yellow masks. It was a heart-poundingly amazing death and I honestly had no idea who was behind those masks until a couple of years later. The person who did it, told me in AIM, and said they felt horrible about it. It was my character's boyfriend. But I was totally cool with the death (after I had a cry and rolled up my next character) and learning the hows and whys of it years later was pretty neat.

My idea, was to reconfigure mdescs. You'd have two of them. One when your face is obscured, and one when it isn't. Perhaps we might just have to use templates, adjusted for the RPI setting. So the face/hair/ears/eyes are all described first. And the rest of the body, from the collarbone down, is described second. When the mask or hood or facewrap is raised, that entire first part is hidden by the code. When the mask/hood/facewrap is lowered, that entire first part is revealed.

It would still show the normal sdesc over the Way and there would still be that risk that someone in the room will "out" you by trying to "contact mask" if you're in the same room they're in. But there has to be some risk of discovery, otherwise it would just become as twinky as it became before the masks were removed from the game.

I like the concept behind this idea. I'd be for having two main descs., though that might not be appealing to newer players. I'm just not completely keen on putting descriptions through templates. I'm usually writing what might be the most noticeable aspects before everything else when it comes to descriptions, and that's not always going to be the face/hair/ears/eyes.

For the second main desc., which describes the person when successfully masked, I'd lower the minimum number of lines to 2 -- or even 1. The main point of that desc. would be to point out features that are visible even when completely covered, after all. That's usually the general body shape, height, weight, maybe some protruding mutations, and so forth.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 01:24:09 AM »
There ARE masks that hide your entire face and can even hide ankle length hair [ever hear of a bun?].  Pull some pantyhose over your face and tell me you recognize yourselves.

Masks SHOULD hide who you are, their completely useless now, might as well be an earring.

I think IF staff is actually considering reintroducing them into the game now that we have better ability to code things there should be various levels of masks. Here's my proposition:

Have different types of masks.
     a) Half-masks - worn on eyes - absolutely does not hide wearer's desc but changes sdesc much like they do now.
     b) Full face masks - worn on face - changes sdesc and shows your set masked description made upon creation.  Must includes eye color and hair color. The exact same eye color you pretty up in your mdesc. Amber waves of grain? Yep, that's the eye color you're going to see if the mask hides almost everything.
     c) Full head criminal masks - worn on HEAD (means you lose helmet) - hides everything - illegal - REALLY hard to get - super fucking expensive - like that kemen expensive - created by supersekrits and sold on black market only or if you have enough pull to actually request it from supersekrits then accountability will happen, documented if the ability exists.  This was actually on my agenda on my last sponsored role, heh.

These were always a petrifying addition to Zalanthas.  I really wish they'd be brought back.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2808
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 01:32:29 AM »
In what world would a mask that covers your entire face require super secret plot knowledge? I can do this shit IRL with a hood and a facemask I buy for 5 dollars on the internet. I'm fine with full MDESC hiding gear but jesus.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 01:44:29 AM »
In what world would a mask that covers your entire face require super secret plot knowledge? I can do this shit IRL with a hood and a facemask I buy for 5 dollars on the internet. I'm fine with full MDESC hiding gear but jesus.
This isn't the real world, it's Zalathas.  The problem is/was player accountability.  Is it easy to hide your face? Sure, pull that hood up and wear a mask, but guess what, PLAYERS don't act accordingly.  Just ask any raiders that are hunted like a sorceror after that first raid... by an entire city. Hell, by every city and outpost and village.

This change alone would increase conflict and fear factor 10 fold.

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azuriolinist

  • Posts: 464
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2019, 02:09:21 AM »
I love the idea of having different types of masks. I'm iffy about making it this an incredibly rare and super sekrit kind of item, though. As you point out, all it might take is some pantyhose to become unrecognizable. Instead of making it extremely rare, I'd go with a full-coverage kind of mask being stigmatized -- maybe even illegal -- in city-states. I mean, why would any normal person go around in something as concealing as a ski mask?

Also, along with those different types of masks, maybe we could go with separate description fields for eyes, ears, hair, body shape, and 'other notable physical features' instead of an entire 'masked' description. At chargen, the player inputs, for example, "blue, almondine-shaped" as a description for their eyes, and "short brown" for their hair. When wearing a face-covering mask, all that's seen is "He has blue, almondine-shaped eyes, short brown hair,..." and so forth with the description of his ears and body shape.

It'd be a lot more flexible than an entire masked description.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:12:29 AM by azuriolinist »

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2808
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2019, 02:49:34 AM »
In what world would a mask that covers your entire face require super secret plot knowledge? I can do this shit IRL with a hood and a facemask I buy for 5 dollars on the internet. I'm fine with full MDESC hiding gear but jesus.
This isn't the real world, it's Zalathas.  The problem is/was player accountability.  Is it easy to hide your face? Sure, pull that hood up and wear a mask, but guess what, PLAYERS don't act accordingly.  Just ask any raiders that are hunted like a sorceror after that first raid... by an entire city. Hell, by every city and outpost and village.

This change alone would increase conflict and fear factor 10 fold.
Your comment doesn't address the situation at all. I was saying I can raise my hood and wear a mask and hide myself, and that it should hide my MDESC. The situation shouldn't be player accountability at all. (Unless there's something wrong with hiding mdescs, but I don't think so.) Their MDESC would be hidden. If MDESC hiding gear is hidden by some stupid clan lock or costs 1k when I can accomplish the same thing IRL, and in game, with a bunch of towels, something is wrong.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2019, 02:54:10 AM »
Also, along with those different types of masks, maybe we could go with separate description fields for eyes, ears, hair, body shape, and 'other notable physical features' instead of an entire 'masked' description. At chargen, the player inputs, for example, "blue, almondine-shaped" as a description for their eyes, and "short brown" for their hair. When wearing a face-covering mask, all that's seen is "He has blue, almondine-shaped eyes, short brown hair,..." and so forth with the description of his ears and body shape.

It'd be a lot more flexible than an entire masked description.

That is what I mean by a masked mdesc.

Must includes eye color and hair color. The exact same eye color you pretty up in your mdesc. Amber waves of grain? Yep, that's the eye color you're going to see if the mask hides almost everything.

I don't see a lot of ears put into mdescs but A LOT of detail put into eyes and hair so that's what I'd require, nothing more. You can ass -v and get height weight and approximate age. A face covering mask would just show hair and eyes.
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azuriolinist

  • Posts: 464
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2019, 03:24:44 AM »
That is what I mean by a masked mdesc.

Then I agree!

Quote
I don't see a lot of ears put into mdescs but A LOT of detail put into eyes and hair so that's what I'd require, nothing more. You can ass -v and get height weight and approximate age. A face covering mask would just show hair and eyes.

Fair enough. It could be entirely optional or, by default, the 'ears' description could be based on the PC's race.

Height and weight don't necessarily always equal body shape. It's hard to tell by assess, for example, whether 10 ten-stones and 62 inches in height means this particular PC is thickly muscled, or is rotund and has a round gut.

Nao

  • Posts: 1992
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2019, 04:51:23 AM »
Do you never recognize anyone from behind, without seeing their face?

Nothing short of a burqa is going to stop me from recognizing someone I spent the majority of the last few years with for more than a five minutes. Anything that hides your full mdesc will also let your Byn buddy or girlfriend that has seen you every day for a prolonged time not recognize you, with no more effort than changing your outfit.
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RogueGunslinger

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2019, 06:01:22 AM »
Sometimes you think you recognize someone from behind and end up pinching a complete stranger on the ass. And sometimes you completely overlook someone who did nothing but get a new haircut or put on some glasses.

Treating the mdesc like an IC extension of your familiarity with someone despite their attempts to conceal themselves is bluring the IC/OOC line a bit too much, in my opinion. A person who wants to conceal their mdesc should be able to.

I'd rather the onus be on the deceiver to roleplay their traits in a familiar way than it be on the person detecting them by reading an infallible OOC mdesc.

Mercy

  • Posts: 84
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 06:15:34 AM »
Do you never recognize anyone from behind, without seeing their face?

Nothing short of a burqa is going to stop me from recognizing someone I spent the majority of the last few years with for more than a five minutes. Anything that hides your full mdesc will also let your Byn buddy or girlfriend that has seen you every day for a prolonged time not recognize you, with no more effort than changing your outfit.

I didn't really want to comment on this topic before because of thread derailing, and where I'm about to go is potentially thread derailing but I tend to recognize people before I ever get a chance see their face, so just stick with me.

I'm relatively new and unseasoned, but I've felt there is a weird balance between player-memory and character-memory. Maybe it's just because I'm relatively busy and scattered brained, but I write down a LOT of information I know my character wouldn't forget, that I genuinely can't keep stored in my brain for longer than a day if I'm lucky. Personally I feel like this makes the act of choosing who you should/shouldn't remember kind of awkward, especially if you have a garbage memory in general.

It would be nice if there was a command, maybe tied loosely to wisdom and/or watch, that allowed you to appended a name to someone, shown in brackets after their sdesc. Items that obscure sdescs (and in this case, mdescs) would reduce the chance that the [nickname] would show next to their sdesc. That way if you don't see your [nickname] you can reasonably go "I don't think I know this person". And alternatively you don't need to be an mdesc/equipment wizard (I'm not, I tend to recognize people off of feel more than anything honestly) to recognize your pal with their hood up.


As for the exact topic of the thread, it seems to me that it'd makes the most sense to have a 'masked' mdesc. I had a whole thing written up but it's pretty much been said here so I just want to throw a +1 at that. Granted, I can see the idea of coming up with two mdescs being daunting to new players, so maybe make it optional, and have a flag for mdesc obscuring items so you just can't wear one if you don't have a masked mdesc created? or it just defaults to your standard mdesc maybe.

Nao

  • Posts: 1992
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 06:57:08 AM »
Sometimes you think you recognize someone from behind and end up pinching a complete stranger on the ass. And sometimes you completely overlook someone who did nothing but get a new haircut or put on some glasses.
How often does that last for more than half a minute? This happened to me... on two instances I can't remember. Both with people I had not seen for 5+ years.

Also, how often do you talk to someone on the phone and recognize who is on the other end without even seeing them, just by voice? Yes, some people can disguise their voices, but throwing on a mask should not automatically make you a master voice actor.

I remember having items that hid your description completely on SOI. It was annoying very overpowered. There was this guy who made a habit of sitting in the bar with his helmet on for RL weeks and even the people living with him had no better chance to recognize him than complete strangers.

On Armageddon? I rarely see anyone make an effort to hide their identity that goes beyond throwing on a facewrap, or at most, a different cloak. If you keep wearing the same armor and clothes that you had on every day of the last few years? I'll remember you, whether or not I can see your face.
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Greve

  • Posts: 161
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 07:15:28 AM »
     c) Full head criminal masks - worn on HEAD (means you lose helmet) - hides everything - illegal - REALLY hard to get - super fucking expensive - like that kemen expensive - created by supersekrits and sold on black market only or if you have enough pull to actually request it from supersekrits

Why should they be insanely expensive and hard to get? That seems like an OOC construct. It could be nothing more than a canvas sack with eye holes. Or, as you said yourself: some pantyhose. If we want it to be something that people can barely obtain, we might as well not have them at all. Then it's just gonna turn into this bizarre OOC chase that you can't explain IG, just like lockpicks and sheaths, except apparently much worse if you must be granted permission by "supersekrits" to even own one.

Masks have been used probably throughout all of civilized history. It's some cloth over your face. If we don't want this to be readily available to anyone who has a reason to use one, it shouldn't be available at all. Two-bit muggers and raiders are precisely the kinds of people who need them. Making them illegal in lawful areas should suffice. You could even make it so soldiers will block your way if you're masked, just so people can't ignore this when there isn't a PC law enforcement presence.

As for recognizing people from behind and stuff like that, I once took part in a study on this. It actually comes down mostly to two things: hair and clothes. Unless they have a very unusual body shape, you don't see someone's silhouette and go "that's Joey!" You see Joey's hairstyle, you see jeans and a flannel shirt which is what Joey always wears, and if they're also about the same height and build as Joey, you make the connection. If he's not wearing something you associate with Joey and you can't see his hair, recognizing him from behind is very unlikely. If someone were to actually wear a cloak with the hood raised, recognition from behind is absolutely impossible unless you recognize the outfit itself and know who the wearer must be.

You could see your own mother like this and not have a clue:


Or like this:


Unless that's the kind of outfit you associate with her (I don't judge), or you recognize her voice or some other unique feature, you simply wouldn't know.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 07:48:52 AM by Greve »

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7975
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 08:22:39 AM »
If these were my parents, my boss and her husband, my next door neighbor, or the couple I see at the bar every Nekrete for the past five years, I would recognize them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiM9r7h4LPgAhXLdN8KHQXSB6EQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtairynews.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fsurry-scene%2F55952%2Fwho-are-those-masked-people&psig=AOvVaw3s00KQZR90mv4_b_HK52iY&ust=1549977051797922

Masks cannot, and do not, obscure bodies. Furthermore, you'd still see their eyes. And so if they have two different colored eyes (happens often in Armageddon) maybe you wouldn't know WHICH of the PCs you know it is with 2-colored eyes, but you'd know it's one of them. And you can easily deduce: Amos of the 2-colored eyes does not know a hefty woman almost a foot shorter than he is. But Malik's sister is a hefty woman almost a foot shorter than he is. And now we know it's Malik and his sister.

There is a difference between mask and disguise. People don't sit in bars fully robed, without lifting their hands and thus revealing them - or their gloves, to the world. Also don't forget that no matter what you're wearing, even if it's a big fluffy scarf around your neck - NOTHING covers a gem. This is intentional, and it is/will always be visible to anyone who looks at the person.

So at the absolute least, you would know that the masked person is, or is not, a gemmed person. And then you'd know they're taller than you. And you'd know that Talia the gemmed always wears a cloak exactly like that, but Jimbob the gemmed hasn't worn one like that since before he took the gem. You know Talia has a pair of gloves just like that. You also know that Jimbob always wears tons of rings, and never gloves. You know Talia has big boobs, which stick out (similarly to the photo in another post in this thread) and you know Jimbob has very broad shoulders but is otherwise not particularly large in size or girth. You know Jimbob has blue eyes. You know Talia has brown eyes. You know Jimbob has a deep husky voice. You know Talia used to sing soprano in the choir before she got the gem.

You know Jimbob has a limp. You know Talia does not, but her left hand is missing her ring finger.

You know that full-facecovering masks make it impossible to drink without a straw. And straws don't exist in Armageddon so if they're going to drink at the bar, they should be removing those masks. And then you'd be able to see exactly who they are and none of this would matter.

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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 11:16:17 AM »
Granted, I can see the idea of coming up with two mdescs being daunting to new players, so maybe make it optional, and have a flag for mdesc obscuring items so you just can't wear one if you don't have a masked mdesc created?
I'm cool with that.
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RogueGunslinger

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2019, 12:29:04 PM »
Is anyone really arguing for masks that fully obscure everything about you? Because all I am saying is there should be some way to hide your mdesc. A lot of people's issues seem to be with an ability to detect someone you know so they can't just be some conspicuous mummy at the bar who is completely  impervious to discovery. I don't think anyone really wants that though I'm sure that wouldn't really fly with any Militia Soldiers around regardless. I just don't want it to be impossible to hide your mdesc as it currently is.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 12:30:46 PM by RogueGunslinger »

Brokkr

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 12:58:56 PM »
What would the mechanic be to reveal the identity of the mdesc-hiding mask wearer?

Jihelu

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2019, 01:01:00 PM »
What would the mechanic be to reveal the identity of the mdesc-hiding mask wearer?
Subdue
Remove mask -person-

Brokkr

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2019, 01:05:01 PM »
You can't perform actions when subduing someone.

Veselka

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2019, 01:32:59 PM »
My feeling is that it should be automatic when subduing someone when it is a hood.

For a mask, someone else has to do it to an already subdued person.
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mansa

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2019, 01:51:51 PM »
I would be interesting if there was a chance to be criminally flagged by wearing this mask in populated rooms.

Or

Something else to help limit the abuse inherent in anonymity.
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ShaLeah

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2019, 04:00:44 PM »
On Armageddon? I rarely see anyone make an effort to hide their identity that goes beyond throwing on a facewrap, or at most, a different cloak. If you keep wearing the same armor and clothes that you had on every day of the last few years? I'll remember you, whether or not I can see your face.

You rarely see it because masks don't work the way they used to before. How much time do you spend in Red Storm? There are characters that NEVER take down their hood. Ever.
If you see someone every day you MIGHT recognize them by their usual clothing, sure, but if that person is leading a double life and raiding you and you can't see their mdesc you can't guarantee it's him, no soldier will believe that that person sitting next to you is the one that raided you. Do you have proof? Your word against his/hers? How big is your bribe to get that person pinched?

Conflict. It does Armageddon good.

     c) Full head criminal masks - worn on HEAD (means you lose helmet) - hides everything - illegal - REALLY hard to get - super fucking expensive - like that kemen expensive - created by supersekrits and sold on black market only or if you have enough pull to actually request it from supersekrits

Why should they be insanely expensive and hard to get? That seems like an OOC construct. It could be nothing more than a canvas sack with eye holes. Or, as you said yourself: some pantyhose. If we want it to be something that people can barely obtain, we might as well not have them at all. Then it's just gonna turn into this bizarre OOC chase that you can't explain IG, just like lockpicks and sheaths, except apparently much worse if you must be granted permission by "supersekrits" to even own one.

Because they are a powerful criminal tool that would be illegal to have in the city states.  You know that *strange shadow* you see? With the right mask that IS all that you'll see.


They'd probably be legal in Red Storm, they may not bust your balls in Luir's but both the big cities would probably ban them. The OOC metagaming with masks is what removed them in the first place. Having different types and making it ICly really hard to obtain will be an entertaining feat in itself. It will create a lot of roleplay and force a lot of conniving and dealings to occur. It will be massively profitable for Kadius, Salarr and Kurac to make those illegal masks and sell them on the black market. It's all about the sid. It is absolutely an ooc construct to control the possibility to ic be a twink. Easier to police if, like psis and sorcerors and nilazi and [redacted item most don't know about that exist and are super rare], the availability of these cool as fuck items is limited.  I think our coding capabilities have advanced enough at this point for it to be an easy addition and for a code to be designed to support it. Staff has to approve your character ANYWAY which means they have to read your mdesc. If they have to read a two or three line maskdesc will it really be THAT much of a pain in the ass? I mean all you're doing is making sure the same exact wording is used for eye color and hair color.  Literally, that's it. You're not gonna see a cerulean-eyed pfafna haired motherfucker have a blue-eyed white haired maskdesc.

What would the mechanic be to reveal the identity of the mdesc-hiding mask wearer?
Subdue
Remove mask -person-
You can't perform actions when subduing someone.
My feeling is that it should be automatic when subduing someone when it is a hood.

For a mask, someone else has to do it to an already subdued person.

Agreed which is why I proposed a reveal command.

I would be interesting if there was a chance to be criminally flagged by wearing this mask in populated rooms.

Or

Something else to help limit the abuse inherent in anonymity.

My proposition is that fully hiding masks are illegal as they were back in the day. This is also subject to:
Confiscation and arrest if found on your person upon entering the gates, like spice.
Crim flag is a soldier sees you masked in the street.


I really do think our coding abilities have progressed to be able to support this type of code.  I would even volunteer and be willing to go through and fix all in game existing masks.




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Brokkr

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2019, 04:43:59 PM »
It isn't about code.

It is about coming up with solutions for the problems that got them removed in the first place.

Which is harder than just throwing out 'what if' code scenarios.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2019, 05:02:16 PM »
It isn't about code.

It is about coming up with solutions for the problems that got them removed in the first place.

Which is harder than just throwing out 'what if' code scenarios.

And you don't think the proposed changes do that?

The different tiers of masks.
The addition of a reveal command for someone having been nabbed (keeping in mind that only soldiers can subdue in the city and in the wilderness if you're grabbed and held tight you're sol anyway)
Making them extremely rare
Making them crazy hard to acquire
Making them extremely expensive
Making them crim code supported illegal so you don't have shmucks at the bar being cute. Hell, lets take it further, make them illegal to be worn even in the criminal capital of the world.

Let's do more.

Let's make it like steel forging and spice making, let's make it GMH proprietary and render independent crafters completely unable to determine how to make it or what materials it's made of. Impossible to replicate so you know it's source.  Make the GMHs ledger every sale, every request documented.

I wonder what I'm not covering.

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Nao

  • Posts: 1992
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2019, 05:16:05 PM »
On Armageddon? I rarely see anyone make an effort to hide their identity that goes beyond throwing on a facewrap, or at most, a different cloak. If you keep wearing the same armor and clothes that you had on every day of the last few years? I'll remember you, whether or not I can see your face.

You rarely see it because masks don't work the way they used to before. How much time do you spend in Red Storm? There are characters that NEVER take down their hood. Ever.
If you see someone every day you MIGHT recognize them by their usual clothing, sure, but if that person is leading a double life and raiding you and you can't see their mdesc you can't guarantee it's him, no soldier will believe that that person sitting next to you is the one that raided you. Do you have proof? Your word against his/hers? How big is your bribe to get that person pinched?

Conflict. It does Armageddon good.

You can't have much conflict with someone when you have no idea who they are, and no way to find out. Any interaction is going to be extremely one-sided. A soldier can chose to believe you or not either way - it's always going to be your word against his or her word.
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Brokkr

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2019, 05:17:50 PM »
You aren't addressing anticipated (or for those of us that were around, observed) player behavior when they are in possession of said objects, and what to put in place to avoid the same issues that were present before.

I'm not intentionally trying to make this frustrating for you. There are more things than this that haven't made their way back into play simply because we can't find a good solution over multiple years/decades. Making some fairly simple suggestions without some solid solutions to those problems, isn't what brings those sorts of things back.

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 464
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2019, 05:28:55 PM »
You aren't addressing anticipated (or for those of us that were around, observed) player behavior when they are in possession of said objects, and what to put in place to avoid the same issues that were present before.

I'm not intentionally trying to make this frustrating for you. There are more things than this that haven't made their way back into play simply because we can't find a good solution over multiple years/decades. Making some fairly simple suggestions without some solid solutions to those problems, isn't what brings those sorts of things back.

Can you elaborate on the types of player behavior and problems you mean? I honestly have little idea what really went down with these masks' removal.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2019, 05:31:00 PM »
On Armageddon? I rarely see anyone make an effort to hide their identity that goes beyond throwing on a facewrap, or at most, a different cloak. If you keep wearing the same armor and clothes that you had on every day of the last few years? I'll remember you, whether or not I can see your face.

You rarely see it because masks don't work the way they used to before. How much time do you spend in Red Storm? There are characters that NEVER take down their hood. Ever.
If you see someone every day you MIGHT recognize them by their usual clothing, sure, but if that person is leading a double life and raiding you and you can't see their mdesc you can't guarantee it's him, no soldier will believe that that person sitting next to you is the one that raided you. Do you have proof? Your word against his/hers? How big is your bribe to get that person pinched?

Conflict. It does Armageddon good.

You can't have much conflict with someone when you have no idea who they are, and no way to find out. Any interaction is going to be extremely one-sided. A soldier can chose to believe you or not either way - it's always going to be your word against his or her word.

Plenty of conflict without knowing who the other person is.  Ask the victims of sorcerors, whirans, drovians, psis. People will be scared shitless, suspicious.  Could be the guy sitting right next to you.  Could be your lover. If you think conflict is limited only towards a foe you know you are missing one of THE best, scariest things on Zalanthas!

You may not want that kind of thing but I love it!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 05:52:26 PM by ShaLeah »
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 12956
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2019, 05:46:07 PM »
Throwing out some ideas:

*Make it a check on city-hide vs. city hunt, watch, and/or scan.  Garble the mdesc with something like the language filter for partial success.  Some masks may provide a bonus/penalty for this check.

*Make smarter and more varied generated sdescs for hooded/masked figures.  Take stats/race into consideration rather than just relative height/weight.

*Make masks themselves varied in sdesc, so at least you don't have everyone looking like a Guy Fawkes wannabe.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2019, 05:50:54 PM »
You aren't addressing anticipated (or for those of us that were around, observed) player behavior when they are in possession of said objects, and what to put in place to avoid the same issues that were present before.

I'm not intentionally trying to make this frustrating for you. There are more things than this that haven't made their way back into play simply because we can't find a good solution over multiple years/decades. Making some fairly simple suggestions without some solid solutions to those problems, isn't what brings those sorts of things back.

I was around back then and while fairly simple may be right, most of those things were not available as counter measures for schmuck, twinky playing. They weren't exactly illegal now, were they.

These changes pose a much greater risk and cost to the criminal as well as a much greater chance at much greater reward for those lucky enough to nab one of those things.

I can't say those in charge of the removal back then took the time to think of ways we COULD keep them. We have unfortunately adopted a big "remove the problem instead of fixing it" policy, maybe because it's easier to remove than repair  Either way though, even if someone DID think about these possible solutions, that does not mean the higher ups were open to it or listening. 

It took disliking a change that did not affect me or the types of characters I play, living with it anyway for however long, having a sponsored role in a GMH house that kept most her ideas to herself,  watching ONE random guy get arrested and dragged off for me to wonder wtf soldiers don't yank that shit down and reveal the criminal and my thread on the matter to be derailed for me to think more about it and list proposed changes. 
This shit brewed 15yrs, I know damn well staff didn't put 15yrs of thought in keeping trying to keep the masks. If they did, let me be the first to say, I feel ya, fam. Good looking out.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 464
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2019, 05:55:16 PM »
Let's make it like steel forging and spice making, let's make it GMH proprietary and render independent crafters completely unable to determine how to make it or what materials it's made of. Impossible to replicate so you know it's source.  Make the GMHs ledger every sale, every request documented.

I wonder what I'm not covering.

As neat as this would be, I feel as if the conflict this might generate would be unrealistic and downright comical, considering a concealing mask can be as simple as some cloth fitted over the head.

I'm fairly sure there are other ways to explore that kind of conflict without having to justify its realism ICly.

X-D

  • Posts: 5655
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 06:10:14 PM »
Going back a ways.
Quote
What would the mechanic be to reveal the identity of the mdesc-hiding mask wearer?

Now the answer to this has already been mentioned, as other muds have that mechanic.

I do not remember what it is called in SOI, but let us call it the study skill. This is a skill/command that allows you to study somebodies features.

Study masked dude. The code would make it very obvious to everybody around that you are taking a good hard look at this masked/hooded pc, then depending on skill, maybe certain stats, disguise quality, and after a hefty delay you would get a return. The quality of the return would vary of course, anything from one or two words of the mdesc to something nearly complete. Usually it would look like scribble halfway through its lifespan...cept missing words instead of letters.

Lizzie, your examples are unrealistic and pulled from people who have no intent to hide who they are.
Stick a simple cloak on that guy and you would not know if it was your brother. Also example of whole head mask.
Add some fine mesh cloth to the inside and not gonna see the eyes either.
Well known mask here, takes care of every head feature...again, throw on a billowy cloak with a hood and even a study skill is not going to reveal anything.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 06:15:10 PM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 06:22:15 PM »
Let's make it like steel forging and spice making, let's make it GMH proprietary and render independent crafters completely unable to determine how to make it or what materials it's made of. Impossible to replicate so you know it's source.  Make the GMHs ledger every sale, every request documented.

I wonder what I'm not covering.

As neat as this would be, I feel as if the conflict this might generate would be unrealistic and downright comical, considering a concealing mask can be as simple as some cloth fitted over the head.

I'm fairly sure there are other ways to explore that kind of conflict without having to justify its realism ICly.
Realism.  Cause people fly. And dwarves exist. And sharps.  And people conjuring fireballs.

I was mostly being facetious with that just to emphasize that if THAT is what it takes to bring real masks back we should consider it because that prop was a vital part of the scare factor on the mud.

I feel it should be brought back.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 464
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 06:39:09 PM »
Realism.  Cause people fly. And dwarves exist. And sharps.  And people conjuring fireballs.

I was mostly being facetious with that just to emphasize that if THAT is what it takes to bring real masks back we should consider it because that prop was a vital part of the scare factor on the mud.

I feel it should be brought back.

Gotcha.

I'd also love to see them in-game. I think this could lead to more conflict that doesn't necessarily have to immediately end with PK.

*Make smarter and more varied generated sdescs for hooded/masked figures.  Take stats/race into consideration rather than just relative height/weight.

These would be fantastic.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2019, 06:40:33 PM »
It isn't about code.

It is about coming up with solutions for the problems that got them removed in the first place.

Which is harder than just throwing out 'what if' code scenarios.

I think this is a fair way of approaching it. Because honestly, I've been sitting here wondering...Why do we need desc hiding masks? What purpose do they serve? This may seem pedantic, but it sort of gets at the root of why they were problematic, and some possible solutions.

So...What do M/SDesc hiding masks do? (As it stands at least as far as I know)

1. They cover up the Desc/Sdesc of a PC.
2. They make it difficult to tell which PC it is when looking at them.
3. They are wearable by the PC, either on the face or the head.
4. They cannot be removed except by that PC wearing the mask.

What do they facilitate?

1. They facilitate crime, for the most part, or doing illicit acts that cannot be traced to a PC.
2. Used in tandem with sneak/hide, they make for a much smoother getaway.
3. They prevent the identity of a person being immediately known when they commit a crime and are seen. (This is for better and for worse).

What purposes could it serve? And let's think outside of the box a little.

1. Criminals
2. Raiders
3. Soldiers (Think dirty cops in on the take, or committing crime themselves)
4. Masquerades
5. Meetings where the identity of those involved isn't to be known (Think Eyes Wide Shut, or secret Guild meetings with a Templar present)
6. Spies -- A way to cover identities both from employer and employee, if divulging information that would get them killed immediately.

What are the drawbacks?

1. Without a PC to attach to the crimes/acts committed, it creates the sort of 'Anonymous Troll' attitude, or at least the possibility of it. This is to mean -- A very powerful assassin with a M/SDesc hiding mask could kill wantonly without much repercussion, and even come up with IC justifications to do so.
2. The same goes for Raiders, Criminals, or others who would more likely fall into a cycle of abuse of this code. It would be difficult not to. Why not use the M/Sdesc hiding mask when it is infallible? Why commit any crimes without it?

Conclusion:

There is absolutely a place for M/Sdesc hiding masks, but there need to be drawbacks intrinsic to their use. This means code, and this means documentation as well. I can think of a few drawbacks off the cuff.

1. The M/Sdesc hiding mask is not infallible. It presents a strong chance of working when someone looks at you, but 25% of the time, someone gets a full gander at your Desc. This isn't achieved by spamming look at someone -- It's based on perhaps whether you have scan active, your watch skill, etc.

2. The M/Sdesc hiding mask can be removed in combat. Make them very weak armor, so that a single blow to the head can shatter them (Akin to the very weak 'hairpin dagger' that shatters on the first stab).

3. Don't gatekeep them. They shouldn't be a valuable resource, or difficult to obtain, but they should be very illegal to own and keep in your possession. I've already seen laws on poisons and other contraband become very lenient over the years, mostly from a lack of reinforcement. Sometimes this depends on who's in charge and who the person is, but with these masks/hiding your identity, it should be very illegal. The simple law could be 'Hiding your identity from the common folk and law of the city is considered illegal, and one's identity must be readily made available upon request.'

4. Make them decay, instead. Attach a variation of the 'food spoiling' code on the masks, if you want to add in an OOC constraint on their use. They can't sit and collect dust in Salarr's storeroom to be used by the next uber assassin in line. They can be found, yes, they can be used, yes, but they have a half-life and must be repurchased or found through a shady contact. Make them available in the Elven Blackmarket, and through Guild contacts, or even Kurac.

5. Create a staff echo when someone wears the mask, so they know when they are being used, and can be tracked.

6. Hell, make it so if you wear a M/Sdesc hiding mask, it exempts you from crime code both ways. Anyone can attack you without being sent to jail while you are wearing the mask.

Just some thoughts on it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 06:43:54 PM by Veselka »
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Narf

  • Posts: 849
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2019, 08:08:42 PM »


6. Hell, make it so if you wear a M/Sdesc hiding mask, it exempts you from crime code both ways. Anyone can attack you without being sent to jail while you are wearing the mask.

Just some thoughts on it.

I really like this suggestion.

That said, I like the idea of making masks less reliable, or have downsides in order to avoid abusive situations.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8877
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2019, 11:50:42 PM »
I like the idea of successfully seeing past a mask offering snippets of the main desc. It should never be full. I'm alright with a mask working most of the time.

I'd even be alright with a disguise skill, where you had to train a skill to fully mask yourself. You'd have to wear gear in certain places, and it'd have to be appropriate gear, maybe with a flag, where the falcon half-mask doesn't work, but the dun face-shield does.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Mercy

  • Posts: 84
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2019, 06:21:06 AM »
You can't perform actions when subduing someone.

Why not have a command that can only be used on someone who is subdued, so it becomes a tag-team action? One person holds them down, the other rips the mask/hood off. I'm not going to suggest reworking subdue code entirely, but having a command contingent on someone being subdued by another party seems feasible enough to me.

Also, since hack is a thing, could hack be used to target masks as well? To facilitate the combat-removal suggestion earlier in the thread.

Riev

  • Posts: 5502
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2019, 12:51:28 PM »
Also, since hack is a thing, could hack be used to target masks as well? To facilitate the combat-removal suggestion earlier in the thread.

snatchmask mercy

You fail, and snatch your own face off, instead!
*beep*
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

HavokBlue

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2019, 06:49:02 PM »
The tiered accessibility proposal is just as ICly jarring as the difficulty of getting lockpicks used to be. We'll end up with posts two years from now asking why a new player needs to greb salt for two weeks to afford a mask when they can walk into the bazaar and buy one that should functionally afford the exact same anonymity.

I don't have answers to the balance question but I don't think artificial scarcity and cost and secrecy are a solution.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Riev

  • Posts: 5502
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2019, 10:14:35 AM »
The tiered accessibility proposal is just as ICly jarring as the difficulty of getting lockpicks used to be. We'll end up with posts two years from now asking why a new player needs to greb salt for two weeks to afford a mask when they can walk into the bazaar and buy one that should functionally afford the exact same anonymity.

I don't have answers to the balance question but I don't think artificial scarcity and cost and secrecy are a solution.

Can it not be as simple (of course it can't) as flagging any items as 'mask' and make them illegal to possess or wear? We're not in 2000s era America, we're in goddamned Allanak. If you're walking around the city with a burlap sack and two eye-holes cut out, a soldier is just going to toss you in the jails for being suspicious. Its a police state.

Higher end masks aren't going to "hide more" than a burlap sack, but holy shit would it be fun to have any full mask or face-guards give you an mdesc of the mask itself. Whether its to increase crime, or have a masked vigilante superhero, or just so that you can go raid some salter and then buy them a drink at the bar later... anonymity has always been lacking in the game. Maybe the Way is a cause, I don't know. Barrier + Mask should be RELATIVELY safe though.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

HavokBlue

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2019, 08:47:18 PM »
I don't feel like just flagging them as illegal solves anything either. It's ICly jarring (what constitutes a mask? is it now a crime to protect your face in a sandstorm? is that full helmet illegal?) and it doesn't add any sort of interesting gameplay or roleplay. The difference is now you just have to train sneak and hide more before you 'unlock' the ability to use masks safely. Sure, it functions as an OOC balancing factor, but it doesn't do it in a way that I find particularly engaging, fun, or useful to anyone's gameplay experience. The end result is that some guild boss PC and his buddies have great masks and master hide/sneak, and the rest end up in some templar's footlocker after being pulled off a corpse in a jail cell.

All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

X-D

  • Posts: 5655
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2019, 02:06:56 AM »
Only if you fall into the same trap which is the reason mdesc hiding masks were taken out to begin with Havokblue...making them rare, hard to get, pricy. Make them common and cheap and just like days of old, in order for many of them to work to hide mdesc they had to be worn on the head, this should continue to work that way. Wear on face and get to wear helm but does not hide mdesc only sdesc. Wear on head, no helm and hides mdesc.

Again, make them common and cheap, stigmatize them IN game and all past problems solved.

Leaving only the "But people will abuse them." argument, but that one has always been silly. You cannot abuse it.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Veselka

  • Posts: 1039
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2019, 02:13:52 AM »
I agree. I would lean towards making them cheap and ubiquitous but incredibly illegal to possess/use, weak to wear (takes up your head slot, can be destroyed in combat easily) and I imagine their abuse will markedly decrease.

In our current societal standards (with obvious religious exceptions, and things like extreme cold weather) wearing a full mask is also sort of 'illegal' in modern society. You can't walk into a liquor store with a feature-obscuring ski mask and peruse the selection.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8877
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2019, 04:39:53 AM »
I wouldn't make them illegal to own. I'd make wearing any face-coverings, on the head or across the face, illegal for everyone in civilized areas who's not a Templar/Noble. I'd give the PC a counter. The counter, using NPC soldiers, would echo [NPC Soldier eyes you closely], and when that counter hit three, you'd be wanted, just to give people a chance to take off that mask they had when they came in from the desert. And when you mask yourself, the PC should get an echo along the lines of [You obscure your facial features.] so that nobody accidentally does it without knowing it.

If we're using the idea that you no longer wear a helm when you wear a mask to disguise yourself, people that wear them across the face shouldn't have any problem. This is a desert world - people need masks and veils and whatnot to guard their face. In civilized areas, however, you don't need them.

That whole "abusing it" idea doesn't make sense to me, really. That's the whole point of masks, even IRL. We don't need to add masks, either. Look at the ones we have, give the ones that meet masking requirements an [is_ mask] flag that people can see when they shop for them, and leave them the same price as they are.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2019, 07:04:13 AM »
How about:

A character will have the flags: female, adult, and human.

They can then wear a mask which fulfills two or all three of those conditions.

As an example I will give you two masks which in a perfect world should be in the game on certain people at certain times.

1. A ceramic, pale woman's visage dominates the face of this mask in a plain, stylized manner, save for the dots of gold paint surrounding the eyeholes and the ruby-red paint on the ceramic lips, too red to be real. The same red paint sweeps out from above the eyeholes, as eyelashes, in between the tiny dots of golden paint. Upon closer inspection or as the figure moves in the light, see-through glitter in colors that might best be described as lavender or pink pearl-dust have been smeared with clear glue upon the cheekbones of the mask, too faint to be seen in dim lighting. Clearly sized for a human, this mask is also clearly too delicate for everyday use.
(This mask has the conditions: female, human, average(size.)) <--- The conditions would be visible like this in the game as well, especially since we have a few players for whom English isn't their first language.

2. A mixture of grey silt, mixed with water into a mud, and white clay have been molded and shaped into a plain mask with almond-shaped eyeholes, painted in shades of black that suggest it was made for camouflage in the dark. The mask's outline is somewhat rough, and appears sized for the average elf, although a half-giant could wear it at length if they utilized the cloth part effectively. Even the inside of the mask has been painted black, to cover all corners, and a double-wrapping of dark grey linen keeps the mask on the face. The edges of the wrapping are embroidered, as though they were originally taken from some other clothing or item with a finer value.
(This mask has the conditions: elf, half-giant, large, immense.)

See, when the yellow-haired elf arrives in the world, he can wear the second mask, and not the first. Because the flags would be present on all masks, he simply could not put on the first one--- the game wouldn't allow him.

This is because he does not fulfill the conditions 'female' 'average size' or 'human.' This is where the translation would get a little wonky, but it would prevent him, and newbies, and griefers from wearing a mask meant for a human female. If even a human male of average size were to wear the first mask, people should know right away that this is a man wearing it. But they wouldn't--- therefore, he can't put on the mask in the first place. Logically he would know this and not try to put it on anyway. I hope this makes it clear what the idea is trying to represent.

To be clear about how many conditions you would need--- one, two? Any elf and any half-giant should be able to put on the second mask. For example, while two of the conditions are 'large' and 'immense', a small half-giant fulfills the 'half-giant' condition and should be able to put it on anyway, even if they're the smallest person to use that particular mask so far.
Playing something new could be just what you need!

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7975
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2019, 08:32:41 AM »
Then no one would be able to wear a quirri mask. or a jozhal mask. or any of the other dozen or so masks that look like an animal head.

Said it once, said it a thousand times: a mask is not a disguise. It should not be treated as a disguise. It shouldn't be RPed as one, it shouldn't be coded as one, it shouldn't be flagged as one. A disguise is head to toe. If you wear all the same stuff you always wear, plus a mask, anyone who knows the stuff you always wear, will be able to take an "educated guess" and know it's you. It works in reverse too: if someone kills you and takes all your stuff, is the same general size as you, wears all your stuff and dons the mask, anyone who knows you, should be able to take the same educated guess and assume they are you.

And yes, if you wear the same stuff that everyone else wears right out of chargen, then people should be taking educated guesses and assuming it's whoever they know who matches the general size of you, the clothing you wear, and the mask. They should not be assuming it's jewelry-hog Amos who is usually covered head to toe in rubies diamonds and emeralds. UNLESS they know that Amos likes doing that stuff. In which case - he falls into the "educated guess" category like the others.

As for making facewraps hoods, other facial coverings illegal: no. It's a desert world. Wind and sandstorms happen. That is a primary function of these items: to protect the face from wind, blazing sun, and sandstorms. They should be treated a bit more conservatively than they are INSIDE buildings that are commonly patronized by normal citizenry and the local authorities: your face needs to be uncovered. If you forget, and ANYONE points it out to you - authority or not - you should immediately realize that you need to pull it down, because you're not just committing a faux pas, you're committing what CAN be a crime if you're caught refusing to comply.  That right there's is a great way for the Militia to make some spending coins: fining anyone they see inside a building in the city with their hood up, or a facewrap on, or any other thing that obscures their sdesc.

Also - I feel that ANY face covering should make it impossible to eat or drink anything at all. That kind of thing bugs me more than eyes in sdescs bugs XD. You should get an echo reminding you to take your face covering off if you want to get the food into your mouth, or put the lip of the mug up to the lip of your face.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8877
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2019, 09:04:07 AM »
Then make wearing the mask on the head slot illegal, if not the face. I personally think that any real face-covering (note that this is not for things like gauzy wraps and shit) shouldn't be allowed in civilized areas, even if they are not being worn as masks. It's super easy to read the main description of an item, however, and decide if they should be flagged to trigger mask code.

And yeah, a mask is not a disguise. But it covers the facial features, and that's all we're having an discussion about. If some Aide you've worked with for 4 years just puts on a mask, you'll know it's them, but you still can't see their face. Yes, you can, and should, make an educated guess, based on a ton of things, like the way they speak, words they chose, way they emote, clothes they wear, so on and so forth. But you still can't see their face - that's all the masks are doing.

And yeah, I'm down with face-coverings making it impossible to eat or drink until you remove them.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2019, 11:46:33 AM »
Mostly, I was thinking of a way to prevent the sort of misuse that got them kicked out in the first place.

What if a mask replaced your mdesc with its own, but gave you the information on the person that you would have gotten with >access?

>l figure

>This black mask is shadowy, thiefy and dark, and is mostly made up of strips of sandcloth of varying degrees of coarseness, suggesting they were pulled from different bolts of material. A couple of long tails trail behind it in the wind, extra material left behind from inefficient sewing.
She is taller than you.
She is much heavier than you are.
She is in moderate condition.
She does not appear tired.

Its not perfect, but I don't think this would lead to masks being pulled eventually. Its also quite a bit easier to deal with than the earlier idea I posted.

It would not give the information "She is mature for her race" because you can't see her face.

Someone else put up this idea before, I think.

If done like this though, masks would become something everyone would want. I mean they'd be easy to make... but perhaps restrict some to clothworking and others to crafts like clayworking. Make having a mask in the streets of Allanak be suspicious as hell, with the Arm easily bothering anyone wearing one in public who isn't attending some kind of mask party.
Playing something new could be just what you need!

X-D

  • Posts: 5655
Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2019, 02:22:30 PM »
Cind, the mask was not misused in the first place. It was the way people acted about them, how far out of the way they went to get them and the value of them. Of course all that was because they were so hard to get.

Lizzie, You are looking at this from a rather odd and unrealistic angle...AND by definition... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disguise a mask of any kind is indeed a disguise. A mask concealing the entire head and face along with eyes is REALLY a disguise. Almost everything else in a mdesc is covered by every pc all the time anyway. You are the one being unrealistic about how much you actually see and notice on a PC. After all, you are right, somebody might say in mdesc that they have a mane of purple hair going down their back. But do you rp seeing that when they are wearing a cloak with the hood up?

A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
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Lizzie

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2019, 04:02:16 PM »
Cind, the mask was not misused in the first place. It was the way people acted about them, how far out of the way they went to get them and the value of them. Of course all that was because they were so hard to get.

Lizzie, You are looking at this from a rather odd and unrealistic angle...AND by definition... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disguise a mask of any kind is indeed a disguise. A mask concealing the entire head and face along with eyes is REALLY a disguise. Almost everything else in a mdesc is covered by every pc all the time anyway. You are the one being unrealistic about how much you actually see and notice on a PC. After all, you are right, somebody might say in mdesc that they have a mane of purple hair going down their back. But do you rp seeing that when they are wearing a cloak with the hood up?

If they have a rippling curly mass of hair down  to their back, you bet your bippie I'll notice that it's purple with their hood up. Hoods don't cover faces. They shadow faces. And they don't even do that very well when the light is cast directly toward their face. I roleplay seeing whatever it makes sense for my character to see. If their mdesc says they're covered head to toe in tattoos (not uncommon), I will NOT tell anyone that I know this person is covered head to toe in tattooes. In fact, I'd find that mdesc jarring, because it makes no sense for someone who is *usually* clothed - to display all those inks. The mdesc is intended to describe the person in the way that most fits how we would normally see them. The whole "if naked, you might noticed..." or "if allowed, you might blah blah..." it jarring.

What do I see when the person is however they are usually? If that changes, that's what the tdesc is for. If they chop off their hair, or have it greased and tightly controlled away from their face so there's no chance that the wind would have blown a few locks of violet purple into view, then they can add a tdesc so that the reader knows that the reader's character shouldn't be able to notice that their hair is purple.

A mask is one piece of a disguise. If Lord Templar Angel Sath showed up in the Gaj wearing a gith mask plus his usual garb, NOT wearing gloves, thus displaying his signet rings, with his templar pendant, even if he took his robe off so that "templar" is no longer in his sdesc - we would all know he's Lord Templar Sath. No one would start screaming that a gith stole the templar's clothing. It just would make zero sense for anyone to do that.

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2019, 05:48:09 PM »
So...you can see what color his hair is and length how now?

Now, put on a full head mask.....and that is NORMAL WEAR FOR 99.999999% of PCs in the game...I mean really now.

So, we are betting sweet bippies...how many bippies are you betting? What hair style or color, amount whatever is that guy wearing?
You cannot tell so stop saying that you can. What kind of clothes? Is he wearing clothes? how much does he weigh, Muscled? Not? You see Lizzie, you already get WAY more information from mdesc then you realistically would. If anything mdesc masks are MORE believable then what we have now.

Normal IG item.

Code: [Select]
This scrub-colored sandcloth duster has been reinforced across the
shoulders and elbows by smooth, grey-dyed hide.  Dyed in an alternating
pattern, the interlocking tawny yellow, greyish-green and tan shapes blend
at the edges, lending an appearance of camouflage cover the front and back
of this duster.  Deep inner pockets line the inside of it and a flap of
sandcloth drapes over the back like an aba with drawstrings to form it into
a hood that could be adjusted to fit tightly about the face and head.
Smooth, grey-stained bone buttons line the front. 

So, basically that is a hoodie...you can actually pull it tight...so...what color hair would he have then? Hell, what shape ears?


« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 07:37:40 PM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Hauwke

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2019, 06:10:09 PM »
You forgot the face wrap and cloth wound up around his neck to keep sand out, so once that mask goes on you can't even tell how thick his neck is, or the fact that he even has a beard.

Edit to add: Also the helmet and gorget, removing the ability to even attempt to figure out how large his head is. And the armor making him look fatter than he otherwise would. And the weapons on his belt keeping the robe from sitting right, again preventing things from being seen properly. Not to mention the numerous packs everyone has.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 06:19:07 PM by Hauwke »

X-D

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2019, 06:17:46 PM »
Oh, I know Hauwke...But I am trying to give these things to her in small bites. :) And I like Lizzie, but I am beginning to wonder if a mask touched her when she was young.





This one is full head mask and a blanket (think some of the rinthi cloaks...ratty blankets I think some say).

Male? Female? What can you tell here?
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Lizzie

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2019, 06:28:54 PM »
Well then there's no need for masks at all, is there? If you want your mdesc to be obscured, wear a cloak with a hood, keep it closed, and put a facewrap on your face. Or a full-head helm if you want armor protection. Or sunslits and a scarf. And change the code of the game so that wearing a cloak over clothes with the hood up completely obscures the mdesc.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

X-D

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2019, 06:44:42 PM »
Lizzie, I have advocated that for YEARS!!!!

I advocate ANY method to obscure mdesc.  As long as it is EASY, common and cheap.

Oh, and these...just because badass RL stuff.





One more...full head masks.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 07:33:40 PM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Veselka

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2019, 07:43:31 PM »
I've played other MUDs where cloaks completely obscure sdesc / main description. They were not broken, or abused, but people walking around fully obscured raised suspicion immediately, and attracted the attention of authorities.

Our game is already pretty much there. Militia invariably look at people masked/hooded with suspicion, but can still see their mdesc, so that is their work around.

Like I've been saying, if these were ubiquitous but illegal, I don't see what the abuse issue would be.

If anything, conflict is stifled because with the combination of the Way and looking at someone's main description, the chances of them remaining an unknown quantity after committing a crime are nearly zilch.

That isn't to say that a lack of main description should be infallible. Like Lizzie pointed out, equipment plays a major role. If a criminal is stupid enough to commit a crime in their street clothing, they should be recognized. But people should be able to hide in plain sight, with difficulty, to pull off crimes, to raid, and to otherwise play the 'Antagonist' role without only living for a RL week.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Jihelu

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2019, 08:33:17 PM »
The mud I've seen that did this well was Haven where you could alter clothes that hide parts of your description. So you could assign to a hoodie that when the hood is raised, they can't see your hair anymore.

It was pretty fuckin complicated, I thought, but it was cool.

Could also make it so when you had no pants your cock was out.

Bogre

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2019, 11:33:27 PM »
What would the mechanic be to reveal the identity of the mdesc-hiding mask wearer?

An assess -v possible to reveal someone's sdesc, if it's just a dark hood, maybe from watch skill functionality. Removal of the mask if you have to see underneath it.

Granted, I can see the idea of coming up with two mdescs being daunting to new players, so maybe make it optional, and have a flag for mdesc obscuring items so you just can't wear one if you don't have a masked mdesc created?
I'm cool with that.

Or it just doesn't substitute a new desc, just defaults to your mdesc if you haven't set a different one.

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tapas

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2019, 07:24:46 PM »
These discussions are always silly to me.

You live in a world with hundreds of thousands of people, living and breathing right next to you. How the heck are you going to recognize the one that stole your dagger unless they are put in a police line-up? Anyone should be able to get lost in a crowd even if you did catch their wavy hair or their gap-tooth.

The problem isn't descriptions. The problem is that players deploy ooc deduction to determine the culprit.

I'm not suggesting that I'm not guilty of this. But The solution is really just better play.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 07:26:47 PM by tapas »

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2019, 07:50:26 PM »
If the solution was better play this would be a mush.

Better to have it so one need not leave things to the subjective.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2019, 01:13:00 PM »
A small idea: What if mdesc is only hidden when three or more sdesc hiding items are worn and active? Raised hood + facewrap + worn mask = something like,

"Heavily concealed as they are, you are unable to make out much regarding this individual's identity. However, you can discern the following:

[Small 'assess -v' like stats, such as 'They are older than you. They are heavier than you. They are taller than you. They are armed.']"
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It's always lizard time.

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The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

Lizzie

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2019, 03:50:41 PM »
A small idea: What if mdesc is only hidden when three or more sdesc hiding items are worn and active? Raised hood + facewrap + worn mask = something like,

"Heavily concealed as they are, you are unable to make out much regarding this individual's identity. However, you can discern the following:

[Small 'assess -v' like stats, such as 'They are older than you. They are heavier than you. They are taller than you. They are armed.']"

Raised hood and/or other device intended to cover and shadow the head (battle helmet, cowl, etc), PLUS facewrap (or mask) PLUS an actual outer garment that is closeable AND in the closed position (some of those outer garments don't close and therefore don't hide the dress or cuirrass or shirt or whatever being worn beneath them).

I'd be fine with that. If you obscure your head, face, and close your cloak around your body to obscure the outfit and equipment beneath the cloak, then it stands to reason no one would be able to see your sdesc or mdesc.

HOWEVER - it also stands to reason that anyone caught doing this inside a building more than 30 seconds after entering it (where there's no sandstorm to justify it) would be considered automatically suspect, and the *player* of that character would have absolutely zero valid complaint if they were arrested, jailed, or killed by the local authorities. Could even add a toggle to the crim code with a 30-second delay on any indoor room that's open to the public.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2019, 11:46:33 PM »
A small idea: What if mdesc is only hidden when three or more sdesc hiding items are worn and active? Raised hood + facewrap + worn mask = something like,

"Heavily concealed as they are, you are unable to make out much regarding this individual's identity. However, you can discern the following:

[Small 'assess -v' like stats, such as 'They are older than you. They are heavier than you. They are taller than you. They are armed.']"
I like it.
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You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Jihelu

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #64 on: March 10, 2019, 12:08:44 AM »
I kinda like the idea of certain shops, self respecting ones and some stalls in the bazaar, should ask you remove your hood/mdesc disguise before doing business or within a certain time frame because they don't want you trying to rob them.

Cind

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Re: Mdesc-hiding masks
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2019, 03:44:10 AM »
I like Lizzie's idea, but I wouldn't want it to be coded, because anything could happen in the game. As an example that used to happen a few years ago with a certain Fale, he would stop his carriage in front of a tavern and his two or three guards would generally have their hoods up, I think, while inside the tavern. The code, I -think-, should not be changed to have those three attacked by soldiers because they had their hoods up sometimes. Also, they were fancy I-work-for-a-noble cloaks, which even a half-giant soldier would recognize and not attack if nothing else were happening. As an example.


The culture already seems to be there, but yes, perhaps shopkeepers should refuse service unless your hood were down and there was no facewrap item on your face slot. For employed persons with obvious armbands/patches, this would be so they could recognize you and get to your service quickly, probably overlooking nonemployed persons in the process. Many of the benefits of being employed seem to be something that can only be rped at the moment, but the important benefits are definitely hardcoded.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 03:49:30 AM by Cind »
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